forget the number crunching from general players such as myself, the game will probably make a profit within 6-12 months without a problem and then the sky is the limit for expansion and added content budgets. you'll get the average joe who's interested buying the standard game, hardcore followers pre ordering a collectors edition (not seen one yet but still time for it to appear on pre order lists) and then you'll get them referring friends to try and get their previous mmo guildies together, then after the actual sales of the game you'll have the monthly subs on top of that and depending on character/server limit possibly even peaople with multiple accounts which means another game account and additional sub.
Never heard of the guy mentioned in the OP, never heard of a mummy mmo, never heard of a BG mmo and i'm a massive fan of the original series. besides as someone has already mentioned previously, this guy makes FTP games, of course he's gonna down play on P2P cause the less spending money in his cash shops the less money he makes himself.
Old news, but it seems the response in both threads is the same lol. The guy is some no name loser lol. He runs a crap free to play company that has yet to produce anything decent. I mean even by free to play standards his junk is just garbage lol.
The only problem i can see is that guild wars 2 already looks a far more interesting game in every respect so far, although it won't directly compete for subscription space with ToR (since many will probably play gw2 and a sub MMO), it'll definitely cause many tot hink twice about shelling out a sub when a B2P game delivers a better experience.
Considering the budget devoted to this, i do hope Bioware/EA do manage to claw it back. But i feel that too much of the budget was spent paying for subs of WoW to see what they can clone.
You're better than that Bioware, if you want this to be the next MMO revolution, make it the next MMO revolution. You shouldn't make a game to be an MMO, you should make a GAME that is an MMO, that way you'll end up with an amazing game and not a cookie cutter wow clone like is evident thus far. As far as i can tell, ToR is not the revolution, guild wars 2 is.
*sigh* i remember seeing the first ToR trailer thinking 'cool' and then seeing the first gameplay footage (after seeing guild wars 2) and thinking 'uh oh'.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to trust BioWare's judgement over yours.
The only problem i can see is that guild wars 2 already looks a far more interesting game in every respect so far, although it won't directly compete for subscription space with ToR (since many will probably play gw2 and a sub MMO), it'll definitely cause many tot hink twice about shelling out a sub when a B2P game delivers a better experience.
Considering the budget devoted to this, i do hope Bioware/EA do manage to claw it back. But i feel that too much of the budget was spent paying for subs of WoW to see what they can clone.
You're better than that Bioware, if you want this to be the next MMO revolution, make it the next MMO revolution. You shouldn't make a game to be an MMO, you should make a GAME that is an MMO, that way you'll end up with an amazing game and not a cookie cutter wow clone like is evident thus far. As far as i can tell, ToR is not the revolution, guild wars 2 is.
*sigh* i remember seeing the first ToR trailer thinking 'cool' and then seeing the first gameplay footage (after seeing guild wars 2) and thinking 'uh oh'.
I said the same thing about EQ2 and WoW. EQ2 looked better but game play was bad at launch. I ended up playing EQ2 for a Few months and WoW almost 2 years. Can't really judge a game until you play it and when it comes down to it gameplay wins over graphics.
I can feel your anger. This game is defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike this game down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards towards the Dark Side will be complete.
P2p is the way to make money and have the best mmo possible.
Great mmos should be p2p 100% of the time, for profit that is.
That being said F2P or B2P w/ DLC can be good models for games that will have less success or want to attract more players.
But TOR will make back $100-$300 mill if its good-great mmorpg.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
The only problem i can see is that guild wars 2 already looks a far more interesting game in every respect so far, although it won't directly compete for subscription space with ToR (since many will probably play gw2 and a sub MMO), it'll definitely cause many tot hink twice about shelling out a sub when a B2P game delivers a better experience.
Considering the budget devoted to this, i do hope Bioware/EA do manage to claw it back. But i feel that too much of the budget was spent paying for subs of WoW to see what they can clone.
You're better than that Bioware, if you want this to be the next MMO revolution, make it the next MMO revolution. You shouldn't make a game to be an MMO, you should make a GAME that is an MMO, that way you'll end up with an amazing game and not a cookie cutter wow clone like is evident thus far. As far as i can tell, ToR is not the revolution, guild wars 2 is.
*sigh* i remember seeing the first ToR trailer thinking 'cool' and then seeing the first gameplay footage (after seeing guild wars 2) and thinking 'uh oh'.
I can't really agree, I simply am far more interested in Sci-fi. While I'll play GW2 at some point, I have never really felt a connection to their lore or the atmosphere they present.
As far as gameplay goes, I felt what I saw from GW2 was a litte too over the top for my taste. Especially when I saw Char spinning around like The Taz. Things like that just ruin my immersion, which is something I feel TOR (cartoon graphics aside) will have in spades. Immersion is an important aspect to me in games, especially MMO's. The game-play I've seen of TOR looked fun, maybe not revolutionary, but I didn't see much of GW2 I felt was revolutionary either.
Then again I also don't look at it as either is or should be competing for my attention. I'll play them both, I see no reason to deny myself the opportunity to enjoy two games, just because I may be more interested in one or the other. I might even try Rift and Tera if the mood sets in. Archage as well.. Options are always good.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The sub model isnt what kills these MMO's, it's the bad game design.
Not just that, but games have been launching with lack of polish AND with minimal content.
Had STO been done properly, it would have a ton of subs. Keeping the same game design, if it had launched more polished/feature complete, and with tons of content(vs the 60 or 80 hrs worth), it would of also done way better than it has.
As far as this guys claims.....like I said in another post....the ball is in BW's court. Depending on what is delivered, it has the potential to make back its development costs on box sales alone.
A SW game, being praised by both the fans & critics, is going to draw mega attention. BW needs to deliver a fun/polished game. With the stated amount of content, it will be a "must" purchase, even to those looking at it from a single player game perspective.
However if they dont deliver, this guy might just be right. I seriously doubt he is looking at it in those terms though, and has personal stakes in his claim. If TOR does deliver, he is going to lose gamers. Between all the new games coming out in next 18 months, his profits are looking to shrink.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Lol Bioware will only have to sell like 1.6mil copies at $60 a pop to make to $100mil back and that will be way easy.I would'nt even doubt that just the presales alone wil make to $100mil back. I'm sure 2 will be bought in my house, 1 for me and 1 for my wife. And depending how long it takes to get to "endgame" we will also sub for at least 1-2 months after the free month if not more. And if the "endgames" is good and not just char rerolls until new content comes out then we may pick up a year sub or lifetime one if they offer it. So my vote is that SWToR will make a profit.
No offense, but you need to rethink your math. You assume that the publisher see's every dime made from a retail sale, but the reverse is actualy true. Publishers only realize a small fraction in proffit from the retail price ( I remember reading somewhere that it was something like 10-15%).... the rest is eaten up by retailers, wholesalers, distribution, packaging, etc.
That's why publishers love digital distribution (they see alot larger percentage of the sale price, even if they offer it at a discount) and why many MMO's are even willing to offer thier client's for free download. Service based products (such as MMO's) really live and die by thier monthlies, whether those come in the form of subs or micro-transactions.
Make no mistake, at $150+ Mil in Development costs ...Bioware can't afford to just ok...they really are swinging to hit it out of the park. Even the exec's during interviews don't downplay the size of thier investment.
That's not saying they WON'T be profitable. I'm pretty sure the guy being quoted doesn't have a crystal ball to see into the future.....and certainly guys like that don't make those sort of statements with no ulterior motive. Just saying, with the size of thier investment...they NEED to significantly better then the typical 30-50 million dollar budget MMO in order to make a proffit.
Truth is, it's Star Wars. That's a cash cow for anyone these days. Top it off with a great company like Bioware and the game's progenitors "Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2" and you have even MORE of a cash cow. This is just common sense. What this guy is talking about...makes one wonder if it truly is coming from an agenda on trying to make subscription models look bad. Cracks me up. I still think the Turbine model is the best in the industry of late and should be the basis for all future business models in this genre.
"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons."
-- Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
-- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
"I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year."
-- The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957
"But what ... is it good for?"
-- Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968,commenting on the microchip.
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
-- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us."
-- Western Union internal memo, 1876.
"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
-- David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s.
"The Old Republic will never be profitable"
-- BIgpoint CEO
I love it. it makes a great point.
so many people are willing to believe an opinion before it even becomes a fact. and the only way an opinion becomes a fact is if it can be proven true and this is a time based opinion . so we will not know until it launches. by the way I am pretty sure bioware has more knowledge when it comes to an mmo than bigpoint after all they failed with apb. it maybe a financial loss for bigpoint but if they will not learn from there failures then how will they move on.
Games I will be playing are: TES V, SWTOR, ME 3, TSW
Wait... Bigpoint is the company that made APB? Considering that they failed in RECORD TIME, I would take anything they say as the opposite. I am not trying to hype SWTOR... TBH I think it is already overhyped for what it will be (mesh of KOTOR and theme park MMO), but we're talking about the guy who made APB as if his opinion matters... and I say it's idiosyncratic.
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As much as I like Star Wars, I'd love to see a game like this fail and crush EA.
But on the other hand I really like Star Wars and want to have a really great next gen Star Wars game to play.
But! I just hate EA so much.....I'm going to burn down the building.
Quit demonizing EA.
When the vendor for Warhammer over charged people thousands of dollars, EA repaid them in full PLUS bonus. In fact one of the CSRs of EA ordered online grouceries for a customer because he needed to get food and EA had him waiting for a week. The CSR ordered his food and had it shipped to his house in hours, free of charge.
EA isn't the moster everyone claims it is. It's a buisness, it's good to its customers and unrelenting to its competition, which is respectable in every way
ACTIVISION on the other hand... is a greedy corporate slug with fat headed developers
PS: SWTOR failing will in NO POSSIBLE way will even PHASE EA, EA is the GM of game developing. It's FAR too big to fail with one fell swoop
Originally posted by Robsolf Also, can't help but wonder if he's making waves to get attn for his own games. Even if so, he could still be right. And it's a pretty valid point that if Bioware can't do it, it's tough to imagine a company that can.
Totally agree.
Before he made those statements, how many people knew who Bigpoint was? More to the point, how many cared? Make a pretty wild claim like that, if people look at 'em, I'd wager he is hoping at least some folks like what they see, and stay.
I'd also suggest that the modeling is far different than what Bigpoint uses to determine what is going to be profitable for them.
Comments
forget the number crunching from general players such as myself, the game will probably make a profit within 6-12 months without a problem and then the sky is the limit for expansion and added content budgets. you'll get the average joe who's interested buying the standard game, hardcore followers pre ordering a collectors edition (not seen one yet but still time for it to appear on pre order lists) and then you'll get them referring friends to try and get their previous mmo guildies together, then after the actual sales of the game you'll have the monthly subs on top of that and depending on character/server limit possibly even peaople with multiple accounts which means another game account and additional sub.
Never heard of the guy mentioned in the OP, never heard of a mummy mmo, never heard of a BG mmo and i'm a massive fan of the original series. besides as someone has already mentioned previously, this guy makes FTP games, of course he's gonna down play on P2P cause the less spending money in his cash shops the less money he makes himself.
lol
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I had to look up what in heaven's name Bigpoint was...
Turns out they're the guys who are frakking up the BSG franchise...
Yeah... no.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Old news, but it seems the response in both threads is the same lol. The guy is some no name loser lol. He runs a crap free to play company that has yet to produce anything decent. I mean even by free to play standards his junk is just garbage lol.
In any case original thread is here lol....
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/296736/page/1
Sorry, but I'm going to have to trust BioWare's judgement over yours.
I said the same thing about EQ2 and WoW. EQ2 looked better but game play was bad at launch. I ended up playing EQ2 for a Few months and WoW almost 2 years. Can't really judge a game until you play it and when it comes down to it gameplay wins over graphics.
I can feel your anger. This game is defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike this game down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards towards the Dark Side will be complete.
The sub model isnt what kills these MMO's, it's the bad game design.
Perfectly put. A good MMO is worth paying for. A bad one isn't worth the space it takes up tbh (STO).
P2p is the way to make money and have the best mmo possible.
Great mmos should be p2p 100% of the time, for profit that is.
That being said F2P or B2P w/ DLC can be good models for games that will have less success or want to attract more players.
But TOR will make back $100-$300 mill if its good-great mmorpg.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I can't really agree, I simply am far more interested in Sci-fi. While I'll play GW2 at some point, I have never really felt a connection to their lore or the atmosphere they present.
As far as gameplay goes, I felt what I saw from GW2 was a litte too over the top for my taste. Especially when I saw Char spinning around like The Taz. Things like that just ruin my immersion, which is something I feel TOR (cartoon graphics aside) will have in spades. Immersion is an important aspect to me in games, especially MMO's. The game-play I've seen of TOR looked fun, maybe not revolutionary, but I didn't see much of GW2 I felt was revolutionary either.
Then again I also don't look at it as either is or should be competing for my attention. I'll play them both, I see no reason to deny myself the opportunity to enjoy two games, just because I may be more interested in one or the other. I might even try Rift and Tera if the mood sets in. Archage as well.. Options are always good.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Who is this guy and why should anyone care what he thinks?
As far as I can tell, his company is not exactly a player in the MMO market...
Not just that, but games have been launching with lack of polish AND with minimal content.
Had STO been done properly, it would have a ton of subs. Keeping the same game design, if it had launched more polished/feature complete, and with tons of content(vs the 60 or 80 hrs worth), it would of also done way better than it has.
As far as this guys claims.....like I said in another post....the ball is in BW's court. Depending on what is delivered, it has the potential to make back its development costs on box sales alone.
A SW game, being praised by both the fans & critics, is going to draw mega attention. BW needs to deliver a fun/polished game. With the stated amount of content, it will be a "must" purchase, even to those looking at it from a single player game perspective.
However if they dont deliver, this guy might just be right. I seriously doubt he is looking at it in those terms though, and has personal stakes in his claim. If TOR does deliver, he is going to lose gamers. Between all the new games coming out in next 18 months, his profits are looking to shrink.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
No offense, but you need to rethink your math. You assume that the publisher see's every dime made from a retail sale, but the reverse is actualy true. Publishers only realize a small fraction in proffit from the retail price ( I remember reading somewhere that it was something like 10-15%).... the rest is eaten up by retailers, wholesalers, distribution, packaging, etc.
That's why publishers love digital distribution (they see alot larger percentage of the sale price, even if they offer it at a discount) and why many MMO's are even willing to offer thier client's for free download. Service based products (such as MMO's) really live and die by thier monthlies, whether those come in the form of subs or micro-transactions.
Make no mistake, at $150+ Mil in Development costs ...Bioware can't afford to just ok...they really are swinging to hit it out of the park. Even the exec's during interviews don't downplay the size of thier investment.
That's not saying they WON'T be profitable. I'm pretty sure the guy being quoted doesn't have a crystal ball to see into the future.....and certainly guys like that don't make those sort of statements with no ulterior motive. Just saying, with the size of thier investment...they NEED to significantly better then the typical 30-50 million dollar budget MMO in order to make a proffit.
Truth is, it's Star Wars. That's a cash cow for anyone these days. Top it off with a great company like Bioware and the game's progenitors "Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2" and you have even MORE of a cash cow. This is just common sense. What this guy is talking about...makes one wonder if it truly is coming from an agenda on trying to make subscription models look bad. Cracks me up. I still think the Turbine model is the best in the industry of late and should be the basis for all future business models in this genre.
/Agree
Also, can't help but wonder if he's making waves to get attn for his own games.
Even if so, he could still be right. And it's a pretty valid point that if Bioware can't do it, it's tough to imagine a company that can.
I love it. it makes a great point.
so many people are willing to believe an opinion before it even becomes a fact. and the only way an opinion becomes a fact is if it can be proven true and this is a time based opinion . so we will not know until it launches. by the way I am pretty sure bioware has more knowledge when it comes to an mmo than bigpoint after all they failed with apb. it maybe a financial loss for bigpoint but if they will not learn from there failures then how will they move on.
Games I will be playing are: TES V, SWTOR, ME 3, TSW
Wait... Bigpoint is the company that made APB? Considering that they failed in RECORD TIME, I would take anything they say as the opposite. I am not trying to hype SWTOR... TBH I think it is already overhyped for what it will be (mesh of KOTOR and theme park MMO), but we're talking about the guy who made APB as if his opinion matters... and I say it's idiosyncratic.
Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.
Quit demonizing EA.
When the vendor for Warhammer over charged people thousands of dollars, EA repaid them in full PLUS bonus. In fact one of the CSRs of EA ordered online grouceries for a customer because he needed to get food and EA had him waiting for a week. The CSR ordered his food and had it shipped to his house in hours, free of charge.
EA isn't the moster everyone claims it is. It's a buisness, it's good to its customers and unrelenting to its competition, which is respectable in every way
ACTIVISION on the other hand... is a greedy corporate slug with fat headed developers
PS: SWTOR failing will in NO POSSIBLE way will even PHASE EA, EA is the GM of game developing. It's FAR too big to fail with one fell swoop
That is all
Totally agree.
Before he made those statements, how many people knew who Bigpoint was? More to the point, how many cared? Make a pretty wild claim like that, if people look at 'em, I'd wager he is hoping at least some folks like what they see, and stay.
I'd also suggest that the modeling is far different than what Bigpoint uses to determine what is going to be profitable for them.