Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Interresting informations about the skill Incapacitation

Well by looking actually around for group fight videos, I found one about the skill Incapacitation, which is kind of interresting. Anyway here is the link.

Comments

  • MuruganMurugan Member Posts: 1,494

    That video is incredibly misleading this is not a secret by any means, the lodestone has had plenty of information about it since shortly after launch which can be found here:

    Battle Regimens and Incapacitation

    We have been using them for some time, like Battle Regimens I think they are a nice addition to group play, and give some serious room for enhancing encounter design to the developers and while they might need some minor tweaks to make them slightly more user friendly (though I don't agree that there is a serious problem with either system) the main flaw is that right now we don't have the type of advanced encounters which typically require their use

    Luckily that has been acknowledged:

    At present, players have voiced concern over a lack of necessity for forming parties, as well as a shortage of situations that demand the execution of multiplayer battle strategies.

    and will be changing very soon in the new content planned for the upcoming updates.

     

  • SelpharesSelphares Member Posts: 430

    Ah thank you for the additional information. This is actually the weakness against  Attacks what monster do have. Like weakness against a type of magic for example or?

  • MuruganMurugan Member Posts: 1,494

    Originally posted by Selphares

    Ah thank you for the additional information. This is actually the weakness against  Attacks what monster do have. Like weakness against a type of magic for example or?

    No though those coexist.  They are in the game as well, but incapacitation don't just weaken the monster they prevent the monster from using some of its special attacks (such as tail swipe, or backflip, or headbutt), and they increase the chance of certain drops.  For example incapacitating the head of an animal will increase the drop rates of horns, when farming certain animals for let's say glue making for your alchemist this is pretty important to know.

    It is yet another tool in the hands of the people who designed all of the best FFXI encounters, if you haven't played that game you don't know what I mean.  If you have and enjoyed the encounters then maybe you are as excited as I am for them to have this additional resource to draw from.

     

    Battleregimens are also superior to Skill Chains (or any sympathetic reaction system such as that found in Vangaurd or EQ2) in their usefulness and potential for better encounter design.  They will likely be enhanced to be made more appealing as eluded to in the future updates (my guess is personally that they will introduce additional damage effects and graphics possibly for some like in XI, as well as making them easier to use without the aid of macros), but already they can be setup and executed in mere seconds with an experienced and organized group creating very strong debuffs to defense/mob tp as well as when used to create massive near instantaneous burst damage in a way simply not possible in XI (and this is why XI's skillchains went out of favor on most encounters, a horrible travesty for that game). 

     

    To anyone who has spent a great deal of time in endgame (probably in all games, but then again not all endgames are the same) the potential for using both of these mechanics during high end battles should be really interesting (it is to me).

  • SelpharesSelphares Member Posts: 430

    Ah thank you again. I only played 11 around till 20 because of time reasons but now I am even more curious about this.

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564

    I liked the sound of Battle Regimens, having always been a fan of skill chains and magic bursts in XI. I gave Regimens a try in Beta and for the time I was in at launch, but they never seemed to fire off. I know there was an issue with them at the time, so I'm guessing it was that.

    If they do, indeed, heed the request for more content that requires - or at least benefits from - group play, *and* manages to get people interested in using Battle Regimens, then that would be a huge step in a better direction, in my opinion. I don't think SE is collectively "wired" for a strong solo experience. The FF series, to be sure, has never been about "the lone hero".

    One thing that I've learned (and this is by no means a unique revelation, just an observation for the sake of the topic) is that even given the most helpful and interesting systems to make gameplay more interesting and strategic, many players will opt for the simplest and most straight-forward possible approach - usually "whack-a-mole", "mana burning" or "tank-and-spank". Then complain about how boring the game's combat is.

    In various situations I found people complaining about not wanting to do SC's because they were trying to watch some Anime or another movie and having to pay attention to a SC would be distracting. I saw some of those same people later on say that the combat was so boring that they would watch Anime to stay entertained. Funny.

    This happened in FFXI over time. Back in the game's first several years, actually, skill chains were not only considered helpful, in many parties they were considered necessary and you'd often see parties being made with classes that could create specific ones... even well before Light and Dark came into play. BLMs were encouraged to Magic Burst when ever possible and feasible. It made the fights go more smoothly and quickly, added an additional layer of strategy and coordination to the group and gave a small sense of achievement every time one came off successfully. Gameplay mechanics were fully embraced and put to use.

    Over time, as newer players came into the game, you saw skill chains and magic bursts fall by the wayside in favor of the aforementioned "whack-a-mole", etc... Players became more determined to *avoid* any mechanic that made the gameplay more involved, or required more of their attention than it was getting. So, they made it as dumbed down and simple as possible by simply firing off WS's when they had the TP; no coordination, no strategy.. just spamming WS. If a SC went off then, bonus. It's not like SC's were that difficult to setup or pull off. Just required paying attention and counting to three (timing was a bit different for BLMs doing a MB).

    Then, as always, many of those same players complained about combat being boring and repetitive... and blamed SE for making the game that way. Gotta love it. Another example of people imposing restrictions on themselves that don't actually exist in the game, and then blaming the devs for "forcing them to play that way".

    Anyway... my point is...

    I *hope* whatever SE is doing with the Battle Regimen system, and with grouping overall, that it pans out and players take to it. Along with myriad other changes and improvements that they claim to be making, if the game does indeed show drastic improvement by the PS3 launch, I'll be dusting off my CE box and giving it another try. Not another day before though. I dedicated many hours to testing during the actual alpha and beta tests, only to find much of what I and others provided as feedback went mostly ignored; the results of which have since spoken for themselves. I'm not going to pay to repeat the experience on faith that SE will "get it right this time". I'll just wait and see how it turns out.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • MuruganMurugan Member Posts: 1,494

    Originally posted by WSIMike

    I liked the sound of Battle Regimens, having always been a fan of skill chains and magic bursts in XI. I gave Regimens a try in Beta and for the time I was in at launch, but they never seemed to fire off. I know there was an issue with them at the time, so I'm guessing it was that.

    If they do, indeed, heed the request for more content that requires - or at least benefits from - group play, *and* manages to get people interested in using Battle Regimens, then that would be a huge step in a better direction, in my opinion. I don't think SE is collectively "wired" for a strong solo experience. The FF series, to be sure, has never been about "the lone hero".

    One thing that I've learned (and this is by no means a unique revelation, just an observation for the sake of the topic) is that even given the most helpful and interesting systems to make gameplay more interesting and strategic, many players will opt for the simplest and most straight-forward possible approach - usually "whack-a-mole", "mana burning" or "tank-and-spank". Then complain about how boring the game's combat is.

    In various situations I found people complaining about not wanting to do SC's because they were trying to watch some Anime or another movie and having to pay attention to a SC would be distracting. I saw some of those same people later on say that the combat was so boring that they would watch Anime to stay entertained. Funny.

    This happened in FFXI over time. Back in the game's first several years, actually, skill chains were not only considered helpful, in many parties they were considered necessary and you'd often see parties being made with classes that could create specific ones... even well before Light and Dark came into play. BLMs were encouraged to Magic Burst when ever possible and feasible. It made the fights go more smoothly and quickly, added an additional layer of strategy and coordination to the group and gave a small sense of achievement every time one came off successfully.

    Over time, as newer players came into the game, you saw skill chains and magic bursts fall by the wayside in favor of the aforementioned "whack-a-mole", etc... Players became more determined to *avoid* any mechanic that made the gameplay more involved, or required more of their attention than it was getting. So, they made it as dumbed down and simple as possible by simply firing off WS's when they had the TP; no coordination, no strategy.. just spamming WS. If a SC went off then, bonus. It's not like SC's were that difficult to setup or pull off. Just required paying attention and counting to three (timing was a bit different for BLMs doing a MB).

    Then, as always, many of those same players complained about combat being boring and repetitive... and blamed SE for making the game that way. Gotta love it. Another example of people imposing restrictions on themselves that don't actually exist in the game, and then blaming the devs for "forcing them to play that way".

    Anyway... my point is...

    I *hope* whatever SE is doing with the Battle Regimen system, and with grouping overall, that it pans out and players take to it. Along with myriad other changes and improvements that they claim to be making, if the game does indeed show drastic improvement by the PS3 launch, I'll be dusting off my CE box and giving it another try. Not another day before though. I dedicated many hours to testing during the actual alpha and beta tests, only to find much of what I and others provided as feedback went mostly ignored; the results of which have spoken for themselves. I'm not going to pay to repeat the experience. I'll just wait and see how it turns out.

    As the director of the game said in a recent interview:

     

    They didn't ignore any feedback, and in fact much of that feedback is represented in the changes that are coming, what happened was they were on a schedule for release and chose to focus instead on other bugs and issues.  The result is that the final product was much more stable than the beta (or XI's launch was, or really many/most MMO launches are), and while missing many features the players wanted it was at least playable to those who wanted to play it in its current state (like me).  There are no potentially economy ruining, or game breaking bugs preventing those of us who are playing the game from enjoying it.  That is putting quality ahead of appeasement, and it is a definite plus for me in a development team.

     

    Back on topic... The problem with skill chains in XI was that they were a very limited system for several reasons which had to do with the way combat was designed in that game, combat in XIV was designed to alleviate many of these issues which is why Battleregimens won't likely share the same fate. 

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564

    Originally posted by Murugan

     

    As the director of the game said in a recent interview:

     

    They didn't ignore any feedback, and in fact much of that feedback is represented in the changes that are coming, what happened was they were on a schedule for release and chose to focus instead on other bugs and issues.  The result is that the final product was much more stable than the beta (or XI's launch was, or really many/most MMO launches are), and while missing many features the players wanted it was at least playable to those who wanted to play it in its current state (like me).  There are no potentially economy ruining, or game breaking bugs preventing those of us who are playing the game from enjoying it.  That is putting quality ahead of appeasement, and it is a definite plus for me in a development team.

    I read that and it reads, frankly, like a lot of PR spin.

    Just to name one example...

    People complained about the market system during Beta, from the time they were implemented. They cited all the same complaints that have been made in retail. In Beta, however, SE was completely unreceptive. To summarize it in a nutshell, they said "wards are working as intended", and left it at that.

    Now, only after launch and the shit-storm that erupted over the game does SE acknowledge what they were told all along by saying "okay, we're working to improve Market Wards".

    Like the other issues that have been pointed out, It's great that they are addressing it. However, the fact that it had to hit them in the wallet before they would take it seriously, much less address it, isn't exactly praise-worthy.

    Back on topic... The problem with skill chains in XI was that they were a very limited system for several reasons which had to do with the way combat was designed in that game, combat in XIV was designed to alleviate many of these issues which is why Battleregimens won't likely share the same fate. 

    Sorry but I'm going to disagree 100% with this. For several years, almost every party I got into formulated and executed skill-chains and/or MBs. They were effective. They sped up fights, reduced down-time and made combat more cooperative and strategic. They were *especially* helpful in areas with a lot of linking mobs within a short range, such as certain spots in Crawler's Nest. In those places, you want to reduce the chance of links as much as possible, or if there were links, get through them as fast as possible... SC's definitely helped that.

    I remember this one party in Yhoator Jungle where we were sharing a camp spot with another group. We were equally leveled, pretty much equally geared... Yet we were out pulling them almost 2-to-1. Why? We were using SCs and MBs... and they weren't.

    The only "limitation" I saw was from those who didn't think they were "worth it" if we didn't have the party setup to pull off "the best ones". Again, a player-imposed limitation, not game-imposed.

    The #1 reason I got from people later on after people stopped doing them was that "they didn't feel like going through the hassle of executing one and it's easier to just WS spam".

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • MuruganMurugan Member Posts: 1,494

    Originally posted by WSIMike

    Originally posted by Murugan

    Back on topic... The problem with skill chains in XI was that they were a very limited system for several reasons which had to do with the way combat was designed in that game, combat in XIV was designed to alleviate many of these issues which is why Battleregimens won't likely share the same fate. 

    Sorry but I'm going to disagree 100% with this. For several years, almost every party I got into formulated and executed skill-chains and/or MBs. They were effective. They sped up fights, reduced down-time and made combat more cooperative and strategic. They were *especially* helpful in areas with a lot of linking mobs within a short range, such as certain spots in Crawler's Nest. In those places, you want to reduce the chance of links as much as possible, or if there were links, get through them as fast as possible... SC's definitely helped that.

    I remember this one party in Yhoator Jungle where we were sharing a camp spot with another group. We were equally leveled, pretty much equally geared... Yet we were out pulling them almost 2-to-1. Why? We were using SCs and MBs... and they weren't.

    The only "limitation" I saw was from those who didn't think they were "worth it" if we didn't have the party setup to pull off "the best ones". Again, a player-imposed limitation, not game-imposed.

    The #1 reason I got from people later on after people stopped doing them was that "they didn't feel like going through the hassle of executing one and it's easier to just WS spam".

     


    Well I played XI from its NA launch, and I have to disagree with you.  First of all it wasn't regarded as the most effective strategy for very long at all, before the TP nerf multihit weaponskill spam was all the rage.  It was really never the most efficient way either because the most efficient parties were not the distortion/fragmentation parties you speak of at Yhoator and Crawlers Nest.  Eventually hardly anyone was using them (ironically even THF parties rarely used them)


     


    I leveled up four of my 75's during this time when few NA's had one, I loved skill chains trust me I wish they were more desirable but they simply were not designed for sustainability in that game.  Luckily it is clear that Square Enix loved the system too, and that is why they are attempting many improvements to it in XIV.  Battleregimens are much better because TP can be generated by all classes much faster than in XI, it is actually easier to queue and execute them (though without macros I can see how it does not appear this way), and they have additional effects more than just additional damage while not being limited to rigidly defined chains requiring specific combinations of classes.


     


    Not only that but as I pointed out before they can be executed practically instantaneously.

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564

    Originally posted by Murugan

    Originally posted by WSIMike


    Originally posted by Murugan



    Back on topic... The problem with skill chains in XI was that they were a very limited system for several reasons which had to do with the way combat was designed in that game, combat in XIV was designed to alleviate many of these issues which is why Battleregimens won't likely share the same fate. 

    Sorry but I'm going to disagree 100% with this. For several years, almost every party I got into formulated and executed skill-chains and/or MBs. They were effective. They sped up fights, reduced down-time and made combat more cooperative and strategic. They were *especially* helpful in areas with a lot of linking mobs within a short range, such as certain spots in Crawler's Nest. In those places, you want to reduce the chance of links as much as possible, or if there were links, get through them as fast as possible... SC's definitely helped that.

    I remember this one party in Yhoator Jungle where we were sharing a camp spot with another group. We were equally leveled, pretty much equally geared... Yet we were out pulling them almost 2-to-1. Why? We were using SCs and MBs... and they weren't.

    The only "limitation" I saw was from those who didn't think they were "worth it" if we didn't have the party setup to pull off "the best ones". Again, a player-imposed limitation, not game-imposed.

    The #1 reason I got from people later on after people stopped doing them was that "they didn't feel like going through the hassle of executing one and it's easier to just WS spam".

     


    Well I played XI from its NA launch, and I have to disagree with you.  First of all it wasn't regarded as the most effective strategy for very long at all, before the TP nerf multihit weaponskill spam was all the rage.  It was really never the most efficient way either because the most efficient parties were not the distortion/fragmentation parties you speak of at Yhoator and Crawlers Nest.  Eventually hardly anyone was using them (ironically even THF parties rarely used them)


     


    Who said anything about being "the most efficient"? Not me.


     


    I merely stated that executing SCs and MBs was *more* efficient than playing whack-a-mole with them - which it is.


     


    Seems you and I just had very different experiences.


     


    That said... Are you arguing that SC'ing and/or MB'ing against mobs is *less* effective than playing whack-a-mole with them?

     

    I leveled up four of my 75's during this time when few NA's had one, I loved skill chains trust me I wish they were more desirable but they simply were not designed for sustainability in that game.  Luckily it is clear that Square Enix loved the system too, and that is why they are attempting many improvements to it in XIV.  Battleregimens are much better because TP can be generated by all classes much faster than in XI, it is actually easier to queue and execute them (though without macros I can see how it does not appear this way), and they have additional effects more than just additional damage while not being limited to rigidly defined chains requiring specific combinations of classes.


     


    Again... different experiences.


     


    SC's were a must in almost every party I was in. It wasn't uncommon for people to have a SC chart or calculator ready to set them up as soon as the party was filled out. It wasn't uncommon for people to make specific macros to alert other party members it was their turn in case it was lost in the chaos.


     


    Also... I never said Regiments weren't better in XIV than SC's in XI. I'm really not sure what discussion you're having.


     


    I was merely arguing for the fact that I hope SE puts more effort into making grouping desirable and makes Regiments appealing enough that players - as they did in XI after at ime - don't dismiss them as "a waste of effort" and "not worth it".


     


     

     

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • Zookz1Zookz1 Member Posts: 629

    I can't say that I ever set up a SC/MB in a party meriting on birds. I remember doing it for things like HNM's and most Sky bosses, but that was before the haste-capped "zerg" era when Kirin took two hours instead of 58 seconds. I must say being a part of the SBMT(Suicidal Black Mage Team) was a lot of fun when SC's were set up, but for general leveling, SC's/MB's became extinct... at least on Lakshmi.

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564

    Originally posted by Zookz1

    I can't say that I ever set up a SC/MB in a party meriting on birds. I remember doing it for things like HNM's and most Sky bosses, but that was before the haste-capped "zerg" era when Kirin took two hours instead of 58 seconds. I must say being a part of the SBMT(Suicidal Black Mage Team) was a lot of fun when SC's were set up, but for general leveling, SC's/MB's became extinct... at least on Lakshmi.

    As they did on my server after a time... which I found disappointing, becuase they really did bring an extra level of involvement to the affair. After a time, players started veering toward doing as much as possible with as little involvement as possible.

    Like I said, there were people I was in parties with who were against SCs because it meant they couldn't watch their Anime and would have to pay attention to the game... and they were serious. I mean wtf is up with that? Each "generation" of players that came to FFXI picked up the habits of those who came before them... unfortunately that included the bad ones.

    Don't get me wrong.. I'd *like* to see Battle Regiments become a regular part of players' approach to FFXIV at large. I'm hoping to see that same drive and desire in groups to set them up and execute them that I saw for SC's back in XI's earlier days.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • Zookz1Zookz1 Member Posts: 629

    Originally posted by WSIMike

    Originally posted by Zookz1

    I can't say that I ever set up a SC/MB in a party meriting on birds. I remember doing it for things like HNM's and most Sky bosses, but that was before the haste-capped "zerg" era when Kirin took two hours instead of 58 seconds. I must say being a part of the SBMT(Suicidal Black Mage Team) was a lot of fun when SC's were set up, but for general leveling, SC's/MB's became extinct... at least on Lakshmi.

    As they did on my server after a time... which I found disappointing, becuase they really did bring an extra level of involvement to the affair. After a time, players started veering toward doing as much as possible with as little involvement as possible.

    Like I said, there were people I was in parties with who were against SCs because it meant they couldn't watch their Anime and would have to pay attention to the game... and they were serious. I mean wtf is up with that? Each "generation" of players that came to FFXI picked up the habits of those who came before them... unfortunately that included the bad ones.

    Don't get me wrong.. I'd *like* to see Battle Regiments become a regular part of players' approach to FFXIV at large. I'm hoping to see that same drive and desire in groups to set them up and execute them that I saw for SC's back in XI's earlier days.

     

    I was really hoping that type of dynamic would exist in XIV, but from what I hear everybody just spams their standard attack in the hopes of getting the highest amount of SP. You're not rewarded for killing things efficently in XIV; instead you're punished for it. That seems pretty counter-intuitive, and I attribute it to the random skill gain more than the combat system itself. I think it's a poor design choice, but I'm no game designer.

     

    Off-topic, but I'm going to reminisce for a bit. I really miss XI, but I simply don't have the time to invest anymore, and all my friends moved on from the game. Sure, I could put my flag up on my BRD and get a PT instantly, but it's just not the same without those people who made XI so special. I could spend hours and hours meriting or leveling in XI, and never felt bored. There were meaningful milestones to reach in every aspect of the game. I miss logging in and seeing HNM pop times on the lsmes, and having the entire LS show up for an event. I miss doing Sky/Sea. I miss exploring the mazes and looking for NM's.

     

    I suppose I was hoping XIV would replace those experiences, and it failed to deliver in every possible way. I was going to enter the world of FF again with the same group of folks that I played with in XI. I couldn't wait to explore and progress through the huge dynamic worlds that I came to associate with XI, but I was hugely dissapointed in every way. Looking ahead, I don't see myself getting too involved in MMO's anymore. It's been a decade of stagnation, and nothing can come close to being as great as XI was in my eyes.

Sign In or Register to comment.