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The Problem with MMO's and Realistic "systems"
twstdstrange
Member Posts: 474
And by systems I mean things such as:
- The way enemies spawn (i.e., animals are born and grow up to adulthood, instead of just appearing out of thin air)
Primary issue: Creatures may get whiped out, or take MUCH longer to respawn
Possible fix: Put less of a strain on killing random animals for quests, make animals harder to find and capture/kill (they might sense/smell you and run away), etc.
- PvP Killing and Player Corpse Looting (being able to take all of your opponent's belongings)
Primary issue: Obviously, another player just loots all of your hard earned gear.
Possible fix: With the current view on gear and equipment, this would be impossible unless someone wanted to play for keeps. Otherwise, put less of a focus on player gear, and make it a bit less difficult to obtain gear OR make gear have less of an impact on combat, and have combat more about skill.
Also, the mystical ways players constantly seem to come back to life seems a bit strange from a realistic perspective, though if you die there must be a way to come back...
I'm in a bit of a hurry now, but I hope you all get the gist of what I'm trying to say. While incorporating realistic systems such as these would make the game world more visceral, the downsides may not necessarily seem worth the effort in the end.
I simply want to know your opinion on the matter, if you have any other examples of such game play mechanics, and how devs might be able to achieve this sort of manner of play and at the same time being able to sidestep the issues.
Of course, some ideas are just the way an MMO works, and can't rightly be put into a realistic perspective.
And yes, MMO's aren't usually about realism, but let's put that aside for two seconds and discuss things that might be plausible.
EDIT:
I'll add one more comment.
I, myself, and a gamer who is irked at things that do not make logical sense, even in a game world. Sure. there's magic in the world, but sometimes the game doesn't even explain oddities with cheap skapegoats like magic.
So, final question, are you, like me, annoyed with such inconsistencies, or do they not bother you to the same extent?
Comments
Per the first issue, it could be mitigated by simply having a massive and expansive gamespace. The mass 'grind' of harvesting should be tweaked as well. In general, the pace of the game should be toned down to a more realistic level. For example, a single cow should yield enough leather to make a few pieces of leather armor, but it should take longer to gather the leather, tan it, and craft it. And of course, no more "kill 10" quests would also help immensely.
Hmm yeah, would indeed be nice if animals grow up and such. For the MMO I am going to develop (in the far future) I will have a totally different approach. Instead of spawning enemies, I will spawn complete zones. But I can't go deep into that now.
And about player looting. I would like the middle-way. Some gear is hard earned, but upon death there is a chance that you might drop one item and not more.
How would that be justified in a realistic way, though?
Really, if you die, all your junk is up for grabs, you know?
From a realistic standpoint, having your socks fall off of you, but not your underwear seems odd.
I don't know.
I thought that Red Dead Redemptiondid pretty damn good.
If only Rockstar would make that an MMO.
I had written a really good response to this.
Then my browser went wacky and it all went bye bye.
So here's Kirby:
<(*_*)>
There is really no point in making the gameworld "real". Realism != fun. For example, take your first issue. It is not hard to put in a birth-death-predator-natural resource model to simulate the true densities of animals. But why bother? Players don't care WHY an animal is there. All they care is whether it is fun to kill it, and what they get from killing it.
The corpse looting issue has been long decided. Very few full loot. You can spend as much time as you want to think about variations .. but once again .. why bother? It is not fun.
Per the first point that would require a huge leap in mob AI. The mobs wouldn't just hang around in the same few square yards but would move around alot more, zones would have to be alot larger to alow for this wide roaming of mobs, attack one mob of a herd type animal and the rest would scatter.
As to the PvP loot idea I think Eve's system is best. When you die the ship is destroyed and so are alot of the moduals all of couse backed up by insurance that pretty much covers the cost of the ship. To apply a similar thing to a ground based system I guess you could take out an insurance policy to replace all your gear and when you die what people loot is scraps of your gear to represent the beating you just took and the inevitable damage to stuff you would of been wearing. So in the end you die and lose all your gear but you get some coin to help you get other gear the winner gets a bunch of mats that could be made into gear. Then again yes I agree in such a system gear has to be easy to replace and not really mean that much in terms of stat adding or there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth about losing your cod piece of awsome +999 attack - 10 to defence cause it keeps getting in the way.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
Visceral. Inigo Montoya said it best: "I do not think it means what you think it means.
Anyhow, those who care anything at all about "realistic systems" are in an incredible minority. The payoff for writing good stories for games catering to the crack-addict-get-your-fix sort of player is too small to be worth the effort. Back when mmos used to be more about immersion, this was not the case.
IE Asheron's Call addressed all the issues you brought up. While they didnt have monsters growing up, which is honostly one of the more useless ideas i've ever heard, they did have different tiers/ages of monsters. By the way, everything you could kill was a completely original monster--minus cows and rabbits. They addressed respawn, they addressed magic. There was a buffet of personalities thrusting the storylines forward.
The reward for designing a game such as that comes in the form of longevity, not in financial success. It's all about the bottom line these days.
I think you are taking things a bit too literally though I can understand the issue with it.
Technically, you aren't "coming back to life" but it's a nod by the "game" that you have failed and we are putting you "here" in order to try again.
Some games do allow for the respawn of a character such as Aion. In Lord of the rings you don't actually die you are "defeated" and find yourself wallowing in your own failure in a circle of stones.
As far as mobs, they aren't "appearing" so much as "somehow more of the creatures have wandered into the area".
Now, you and I both know that if you are standing in a field sometimes a mob will spawn right next to you and start attacking. So obviously that's a bit immersion breaking.
One way might be to, for example, have a cave or some type of structure, where the mobs (intelligent mobs) appear to leave from.
So if it's goblins then we see them leaving the cave, perhaps with a guard buddy and then head toward an area on the field to do guard duty or "whatever".
Of course the devs can make it so that players actually depopulate and area. But with all the players who need/want to be in that area, it's going to leave chunks of time when players can't find the mobs they require.
Of course that might beg the question that these games should move away from killing mobs after mobs and would require a rethinking of how the world is populated.
Would players react positively to that? Maybe. usually players want to be doing something that's fun. if that involves combat they are going to want to find areas they can have as much combat as they can stand for their play session.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You speak as if you're representing everybody who plays MMO's. Just because you don't think it's fun doesn't mean it isn't.
For me, being pulled out of a "worldly" experience is no fun, and random animals popping up like weeds does that to me.
Also I want to say again, if you can think of any similar mechanic ideas, by all means add them to the conversation, not just what I was talking about.
Well, for instance, there are issues with fast travel. It can be a life saver but it can also ruin the feeling of the game world as a "world".
Of course, in LOTRO some people take certain mustering skills too literally and think that hunters are teleporting players to a specific area. Sure, the game is essentially teleporting players but the context is that the hunter has successfully escorted the part to a particular destination without event.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yes, fast travel. I don't believe I've ever encountered FT where it really bothered me, I mean, in fantasy it's magic portals and the like, and in sci-fi I imagine it would be teleporters and such... Assuming this is instantaneous travel.
But having a FT system similar to Fallout 3/New Vegas in an MMO would be extremely unpleasant to me. Click, fwoosh.
I'm not to familiar with LOTRO's system, if you want to elaborate on it a bit more?
Whoops.
Heh.
Oh well.
It's interesting because I was reading "Yahtee" Crenshaw's article on fallout 3 where he states that he sort of appreciates world of warcrafts use of "fast travel" because at least it allows one to have a sense of the "bigness" of the world.
In lord of the rings, one gets on a horse at a particular stable, it goes galloping a few feet and then there is a loading screen and you are seen approaching another stable at your destination.
however, some classes have the ability to "transport" themselve instantaneously to another locale. Some players have said that this is "magical" teleportation but in the context of the game world it's really more of a "hey let's go" and then "yadda, yadda yadda, they arrive at their desitnation safely".
Fast travel doesn't exactly bother me but I do think that it can have an adverse effect on the world.
for instance, in Oblvion there is fast travel. I only use it if there isn't a storied reason "not to".
So for instance, in that game one leaves the sewers and is supposed to make their way to a place where a certain monk is. Well, one can easily open up their map and moments later they are there.
For me that sort of ruins the "journey to get there and what happens on the way to impede that journey".
Also, fast travel can ruin the sense of any world. At the launch of Lineage 2, most people didn't have the money to go zipping around using the gatekeepers. So they hoofed it most of the time. This meant that not only was there a vibrant world filled with people traveling to and fro, a player could also have any number of encounters on the way. Players demanding tolls at bridges or groups finding their enemies and fighitn on the roads.
Heck, getting to the cave of Antharas the land dragon felt like an epic journey. Especially because there is a clan quest that require your clan to navigate closely to it so that you can get a certain drop needed to level the clan.
It was an epic journey to find a particular place.
Now you just get ported to the entrance of the cave. If I was Antharas I would put in a complaint.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Do you think taking away any type of fast travel (save, say, only hard to obtain sources) and forcing players to walk/ride the distance would hinder game play?
I think taking away fast travel would anger most if not all of the player base, since you'd be taking away their convenience, and if it was a new title without fast travel, those who were use to fast travel would feel like travelling was a burden.
There's also a part of me that thinks the MMO gamer of today would be too busy or, dare I say it, too unimaginative to try and gaurd a bridge for a toll, or what have you. Partly because the MMO mentality today is 'if you stop running on your treadmill, why bother continue playing?', and partly because game mechanics usually just let player walk through each other (to avoid the bridge toll idea), or to sidestep any creativity a player might have.
What ruins the feeling of the world as a real place even more is when you hop on a slow travel system and then go get something to drink or eat while you wait 10+ minutes to get to your destination. That's a lot more immersion-breaking.
One of the reason perfectly realistic systems don't work is that these are GAMES. As such the vast majority of gamers have neither the time nor inclination to treat them like real life. The more overly realistic a game is, the more of a hideous time sink it is, which tends to make it a worse game. That's been a major problem with games trying to go for realism.
I agree with you twstd. It can be high fantasy, but it has to make sense. I like LotRO's idea that your character is not killed but defeated and runs back to the nearest rally point. But they really don't support it this concept with their own vocabulary.
For me the respawn mechanic could make more sense in that your character wakes up in the nearest hospital or healing temple or whatever. That's what usually happens to those of us when we lose a fight. In some fantasy settings, I suppose one could go before her god and ask for a boon to return to the living.
About looting, I am a firm believer in a What You See Is What You Get (WYSIWYG) looting system. I see dead mobs becoming nodes that require harvesting. This could be a better source for raw materials like iron and steel than hitting a randomn rock with a pick axe.
For PvP, losing a fight means your character has dropped (almost) everything and ran. I think most of us could have the prescence of mind to hold on to one or two valuable heirlooms...
To also regulate looting, encumberance and bag volume need to be an issue. I can drop realism enough for a semi-fictitious pack-animal that can carry a ton of stuff, but guess what may be left behind if your character loses a fight?
I want these games to make more sense because I want more immersion and I think we can learn from them. Show me how a sword is really made, what an ore mine really looks like, what life may have been like in the late iron age, etc. I am tired of our perceptions of reality being managed by marketing geeks.
TSW, LotRO, EQ2, SWTOR, GW2, V:SoH, Neverwinter, ArchAge, EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO, BDO, SotA, B&S, ESO,
No, I do think there should be some form of fast travel but my sense is that it should have some sort of limit. At least for my taste.
As far as the "holding a bridge for a toll" that actually happened in Lineage 2. We also had a clan hold a major leveling area (cruma tower) hostage.
It was a very interesting game and not really for players who have more of an interest in the next gear piece.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Your full loot analogy is only a problem in gear centric games which have tedious raids and the like to gain gear in the first place.
As long as you are pvp/combat viable in gear that can readily be replaced (i.e. bought) then there is really zero issue with full loot games.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Well I can appreciate that opinion but I don't share it. First of all I wouldn't be getting up to go get a drink I would be (if it was wow for instnace, though that really was never my game) enjoying the ride.
I get that for some these are games and a full real world emulator might be a tad too annoying but I get enjoyment from being in the world. I also can concur that if you only have "so much time" that spending that time watching the trees go by might be trying.
That is why I think there should be fast travel but somehow a limit on it. Or perhaps the opposite, some reason to reward actually traveling the world. Perhaps rare encounters that are fun and also can yield nice rewards or experiences or encounters that might offer up rare quests.
Come to think of it that might be the better way to go.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Could you give me some examples of MMO's without much focus on gear, I haven't had much experience with any.
Perhaps fast travel to only major cities. I think in any type of situation there would be some sort of way to quickly travel between major NPC areas, assuming they had the means of doing so. I would like to this a city of mages would be able to teleport from that city to a neighboring city, even by the use of a large, static, let's say, magic gate, or something.
Otherwise, travelling from a city to an outpost would require the use of your good ol' feet.
My thougth is that Vanguard's current incarnation does it well.
One has to get to a tower and one can teleport to areas or cities but if one wants to go to a certain place within an area one has to travel.
Still, there should be some incentive for people to travel the world.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Daoc wasn't focused on gear. You would just buy crafted gear and spellcraft it to max relevant stats/resists. There were some drops you could get from raiding, but it wasn't necessary. The endgame was the RvR, killing the other 2 sides, defending your realm, relics, earning realm points to invest in a variety of new skills.