Days before the delay the soe devs were blogging and answering interview questions that dcu had no beta, did not need a beta and was going to make the nov02 release date.
The day after cataclysm announces a release date near dcu, there is a delay announced. Suddenly the developers are talking about how important it is that they beta test the game and not rush it to market.
I'm not doubting your friend says there are issues in the game that should be worked on before it is release, but soe has never really had problems releasing their mmos incomplete. Everything seems to have changed with the announcement of cataclysms release date.
They said it only needed an internal beta, which is pretty much crap for an MMO, I think. IMHO, this is partly because MMOs tend to have gear treadmills and are designed to milk the fun for sub money as much as possible (so they have to test to make sure the fun isn't stretched too thinly), and partly because an exploit only one person in a 1000 would normally find can spread and make a big problem (granted FPS, RTS, and other games can have this same problem).
I love how people make their determinations on things without even playing them. I was in a league of legends game earlier today that before a single character was picked a guy was saying we were going to lose. Most of the things people are saying here is not based off fact but rather a bad taste that you have from your own history with mmo's. While some of the people on this board and site find that kind of discussion to be productive I find it to be childish and without facts. Play the game when it gets to open beta and make your own decision.
But then again if your looking for nothing but negatives than the game will fail before you ever play it. Mindset sets a mood and if your mood is bad than you will for sure have a bad first impression. MMO's are a social media and just like any type of media people will either love it or hate it, the key is putting out a product that is good enough to launch instead of rushing it for box sales.
I love how people make their determinations on things without even playing them.
Isn't this exactly what you did in the very first post of this thread?
Not exactly, I listed facts about the game and how i felt about them, by watching video's and demo's.
I'm late to the argument, but it seems to me that you just proved that guy's point...
How exactly ? Speculation and facts are two very different things.
and how you felt about them.
When other people feel differently about the facts, suddenly they are being crazy.
Your not discussing the facts, your talking about anything but the facts. Give me three things you have talked about DC Universe and the facts they are based off of.
Days before the delay the soe devs were blogging and answering interview questions that dcu had no beta, did not need a beta and was going to make the nov02 release date.
The day after cataclysm announces a release date near dcu, there is a delay announced. Suddenly the developers are talking about how important it is that they beta test the game and not rush it to market.
I'm not doubting your friend says there are issues in the game that should be worked on before it is release, but soe has never really had problems releasing their mmos incomplete. Everything seems to have changed with the announcement of cataclysms release date.
You do realize all the things the developers talk about are scripted by the public relations people first, correct? You also realize the developers themselves are not supposed to talk about anything unless cleared with the PR staff first, right? They already mentioned a few times that they would like to go into more specifics about the game, but fear the wrath of their PR staff.
What they realized from the closed, private beta was that the game simply was not ready. After XIVs shocking launch, I doubt SOE themselves were willing to take a similar risk. I've been watching a friend play for over a week now and in its current state, it would've received a mediocre mark in reviews. Glaring issues are present still, and it was a title that was supposed to be released on Nov.2nd.
Developers and everyday MMO players should've realized by now...it will not matter if you release a game near a WoW date or half a year away from it. If it's bad, it's bad. If it's good, it will draw in the crowd. It's as simple as that. The delay has nothing to do with WoWs expansion date.
You do realize all the things the developers talk about are scripted by the public relations people first, correct? You also realize the developers themselves are not supposed to talk about anything unless cleared with the PR staff first, right? They already mentioned a few times that they would like to go into more specifics about the game, but fear the wrath of their PR staff.
What they realized from the closed, private beta was that the game simply was not ready. After XIVs shocking launch, I doubt SOE themselves were willing to take a similar risk. I've been watching a friend play for over a week now and in its current state, it would've received a mediocre mark in reviews. Glaring issues are present still, and it was a title that was supposed to be released on Nov.2nd.
Developers and everyday MMO players should've realized by now...it will not matter if you release a game near a WoW date or half a year away from it. If it's bad, it's bad. If it's good, it will draw in the crowd. It's as simple as that. The delay has nothing to do with WoWs expansion date.
Sure I realize all of those things play some factor, but that doesn't change that soe was planning to release the game without a beta testing and only delayed after blizzard announced cataclysms release date.
I'm not debating what the condition of the game was (good or bad) or that it is simple common sense that bad games do poorly. After seeing game after game after game release in horrible shape it is obvious that developers do not care or they simply can't get the job done. Take your pick, but I don't think the condition alone was stopping soe. Everything up to Oct 3rd was leading to a nov 2nd release date.
If soe had a history of delaying their products so as to release them in a polished and completed condition I would agree with you, but history doesn't support that theory. It actually speaks to the contrary.
How DARE you not mension how awesomely fun the action combat is!!!
The fighting is really fun! theres nothing like
a) Using a flamethrower then comboing a guy then knocking him with your rifles behind then machine gunning him down then rolling back while shooting then firing a mortar at him
b) Use those katars to uppercut a guy into the air, chase after him, combo him in the air Marvel Vs Capcom style, Knock him down, toss a shuriken, combo him more, then use a smoke bomb as he dies.
c) Whack a guy with your bow, kick him up into the air, fire at him legolas style then end with a charged exploding arrow, fire more arrows then end with another legolas style arrow barrage
d) Tazer someone then pepper spray him in the face.
There are other comboes but I havent seen it in the vids yet... >.<
You guys should go watch more dcuo vids :P
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(") **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
Days before the delay the soe devs were blogging and answering interview questions that dcu had no beta, did not need a beta and was going to make the nov02 release date.
The day after cataclysm announces a release date near dcu, there is a delay announced. Suddenly the developers are talking about how important it is that they beta test the game and not rush it to market.
I'm not doubting your friend says there are issues in the game that should be worked on before it is release, but soe has never really had problems releasing their mmos incomplete. Everything seems to have changed with the announcement of cataclysms release date.
You do realize all the things the developers talk about are scripted by the public relations people first, correct? You also realize the developers themselves are not supposed to talk about anything unless cleared with the PR staff first, right? They already mentioned a few times that they would like to go into more specifics about the game, but fear the wrath of their PR staff.
What they realized from the closed, private beta was that the game simply was not ready. After XIVs shocking launch, I doubt SOE themselves were willing to take a similar risk. I've been watching a friend play for over a week now and in its current state, it would've received a mediocre mark in reviews. Glaring issues are present still, and it was a title that was supposed to be released on Nov.2nd.
Developers and everyday MMO players should've realized by now...it will not matter if you release a game near a WoW date or half a year away from it. If it's bad, it's bad. If it's good, it will draw in the crowd. It's as simple as that. The delay has nothing to do with WoWs expansion date.
I'm afraid you are mistaken as DCUO has been overwhelmingly shown to have been delayed due to one thing, the release of Cataclysm. Why else would the delay have been announced within hours (probably minutes) of Cataclysm's announced release date? And even given the remote possibility that it wasn't ready, isn't that the norm for newly released mmos anyways?
Days before the delay the soe devs were blogging and answering interview questions that dcu had no beta, did not need a beta and was going to make the nov02 release date.
The day after cataclysm announces a release date near dcu, there is a delay announced. Suddenly the developers are talking about how important it is that they beta test the game and not rush it to market.
I'm not doubting your friend says there are issues in the game that should be worked on before it is release, but soe has never really had problems releasing their mmos incomplete. Everything seems to have changed with the announcement of cataclysms release date.
You do realize all the things the developers talk about are scripted by the public relations people first, correct? You also realize the developers themselves are not supposed to talk about anything unless cleared with the PR staff first, right? They already mentioned a few times that they would like to go into more specifics about the game, but fear the wrath of their PR staff.
What they realized from the closed, private beta was that the game simply was not ready. After XIVs shocking launch, I doubt SOE themselves were willing to take a similar risk. I've been watching a friend play for over a week now and in its current state, it would've received a mediocre mark in reviews. Glaring issues are present still, and it was a title that was supposed to be released on Nov.2nd.
Developers and everyday MMO players should've realized by now...it will not matter if you release a game near a WoW date or half a year away from it. If it's bad, it's bad. If it's good, it will draw in the crowd. It's as simple as that. The delay has nothing to do with WoWs expansion date.
I'm afraid you are mistaken as DCUO has been overwhelmingly shown to have been delayed due to one thing, the release of Cataclysm. Why else would the delay have been announced within hours (probably minutes) of Cataclysm's announced release date? And even given the remote possibility that it wasn't ready, isn't that the norm for newly released mmos anyways?
Wow Fan boys must be right. I mean obviously given the success of world of warcraft a game would be stupid to go up against it. I mean who would honestly push back a release to polish a product.
Past mmo's have nothing to do with the future, companies are no longer gonna release half done products, atleast the companies that matter. Games like rift are going to set the bar higher for the market. DCUO only has one shot to release their game, pushing it back to make sure the polish is in is a good thing, stop trying to make everything about world of warcraft. Just because wow is your life doesn't mean everyone else bases their life off it.
dj, I've seen you multiple times link STO to NCsoft. Star Trek Online was not released by NCsoft. It was released by Atari, developed by Cryptic. NCsoft had absolutely nothing to do with that turd so please stop saying they did.
Also just a friendly suggestion, it is frowned upon to make 2 or 3 posts in a row. If you want to respond to multiple people, quote them all instead of making 2 or 3 posts right after one another.
Wow Fan boys must be right. I mean obviously given the success of world of warcraft a game would be stupid to go up against it. I mean who would honestly push back a release to polish a product.
Past mmo's have nothing to do with the future, companies are no longer gonna release half done products, atleast the companies that matter. Games like rift are going to set the bar higher for the market. DCUO only has one shot to release their game, pushing it back to make sure the polish is in is a good thing, stop trying to make everything about world of warcraft. Just because wow is your life doesn't mean everyone else bases their life off it.
Why do you feel the need to constantly name call those who don't agree with you? Troll this, fanboi that. Why not just stick to the topic instead of sinking to this level of insulting? It just weakens your points.
I doubt you have played rifts yet to make comments that it will released so polished that it will change the industry. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Didn't you just complain that people were making judgements of games without playing them, but here you are doing that very same thing... like you did in the original post.
How can you say companies are no longer going to release half finished products? Did you miss what just happened last month with square enix and final fantasy 14? Gaming companies didn't learn after EQ2. They didn't learn after Vanguard. They didn't learn after Tabula Rasa or Conan or Warhammer or Champions online or Star Trek or APB or on and on and on.
Maybe things will be different with the next mmo that releases, but what information do you have that says anything will change? Why should the history of the genre and specific companies just be ignored with the assumption that nothing like that will happen again? Isn't that a rather large leap of faith when all things are considered?
Wow Fan boys must be right. I mean obviously given the success of world of warcraft a game would be stupid to go up against it. I mean who would honestly push back a release to polish a product.
Past mmo's have nothing to do with the future, companies are no longer gonna release half done products, atleast the companies that matter. Games like rift are going to set the bar higher for the market. DCUO only has one shot to release their game, pushing it back to make sure the polish is in is a good thing, stop trying to make everything about world of warcraft. Just because wow is your life doesn't mean everyone else bases their life off it.
Why do you feel the need to constantly name call those who don't agree with you? Troll this, fanboi that. Why not just stick to the topic instead of sinking to this level of insulting? It just weakens your points.
I doubt you have played rifts yet to make comments that it will released so polished that it will change the industry. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Didn't you just complain that people were making judgements of games without playing them, but here you are doing that very same thing... like you did in the original post.
How can you say companies are no longer going to release half finished products? Did you miss what just happened last month with square enix and final fantasy 14? Gaming companies didn't learn after EQ2. They didn't learn after Vanguard. They didn't learn after Tabula Rasa or Conan or Warhammer or Champions online or Star Trek or APB or on and on and on.
Maybe things will be different with the next mmo that releases, but what information do you have that says anything will change? Why should the history of the genre and specific companies just be ignored with the assumption that nothing like that will happen again? Isn't that a rather large leap of faith when all things are considered?
Note: nothing above is about wow.
Are you not a fan of wow? You constantly talked about the release date being moved back by the announcement of cataclysm. Take that and the fact that the signature has you actively playing world of warcraft, the two seem oddly linked. When i refer to someone trolling its as an action because they aren't listing facts, but rather attacking me, which seems to be common for the thread.
Discussing my opinions of the facts is nothing more than that. I am still listing FACTS, the problem with these threads is that 95% of the people who read this don't comment, the only ones who do comment are only here to bring negative attention.
Defending past companies is not something I can or will do. I have said for many years that many companies don't take full advantage of the genre. MMO's are one of the largest social media business of this generation and can easily generate massive amounts of revenue. Rather the industry has turned the genre into a mill pumping out games for first month subs and box sales with very little concern for retention.
Which brings me to the future of MMO's, note this is nothing more than an educated prediction and can easily be proven false at the release of future titles. That being said everything I have heard and seen from Trion leads me to believe that they understand all the points I previously made and are working to release polished products that can be expanded on, instead of consumers paying for 6 months of beta and patches. Companies are in the business of making money and World of Warcraft has shown that a well done product can generate over a billion dollars a year. Why would any company be willing to give up that kind of money to rush a worthless product.
In regards to your last point I think its in human nature to learn from mistakes and build upon them. Development of MMO's take years upon years and we are now going to start seeing the result of that last 5 years of work by a lot of companies. Hopefully the community becomes a better place, because right now people have zero faith in any product.
I am officially done with this thread because it has gone past the point of being useful. The thread was intended to show my initial feelings about a pre launch and its potential. I had also overlooked the title and didn't want others to make the same mistake, just because of the previous failings of both SOE and the comic book mmo genre. What this has turned into is a list of negative things about the mmo industry and me defending my views and feelings about a product that hasn't been released. Twist and turn that into whatever you want but I grow tired of discussing irrelevant things like the difference between focus testing and beta testing. Theories about how every company is scared to release against WoW and their expansion. Even with all these things said it still does not change my opinions on the facts of this game. I believe that DCUO is a huge step in the right direction and one of the best, if not the best product that SOE has ever released. If one person gives this game a chance that otherwise would have overlooked the title than this post is a success in my mind. Have fun with whatever title you want to play and see you on the battlefield.
I just hope people give it a chance. Sure SOE have got some bad history going on, but I give DC and Warner Bros more credit. I doubt they'll let anything majorly bad happen because of how it reflects on them. I wasn't around for the Galaxies fiascoe, or all the other major issues eevryone seems to have with SOE, but I know that WB takes DC and its branding very seriously.
I'm going to play DCUO. I'm 99% sure I'll enjoy it. The game looks nice and it seems to run nicely from the Beta videos out there. The main problems I can see coming up are the story/possible lack-of and the ease with which canon could be abandoned for the sake of the game, but as I said, those two areas are DC/WB's concern and the current folks running DC don't let that kinda stuff happen.
It may have been delayed for Cata. It may have been delayed for quality. The speed of the turnaround from "Nov 2" to "sometime next year" would suggest the former while "not having a beta" is such a ridiculous idea that it would suggest the latter. The main point to be taken from this, however, is that it will make a better release no matter the reason. I'm in Ausralia so I probably won't see it till after the major North American release, but I hope the game is good enough that any of you who pick it up are still playing when I get to see it for myself.
I'm sorry, but raiding is the worst kind of content there is for an MMO. Boring, repetitive and unrewarding hamster grinds do not a good game make. Not sure why you would consider that a positive aspect of this game, especially an action game.
I'm sorry, but raiding is the worst kind of content there is for an MMO. Boring, repetitive and unrewarding hamster grinds do not a good game make. Not sure why you would consider that a positive aspect of this game, especially an action game.
Differant people like differant things. I never EVER touch PVP, I don't enjoy it, in any game and I have my opinions as to how little value PVP is to a game, but some people enjoy it so the fact that it is in the game will get more people playing. THAT is a good thing,
I hope this post will inspire others that are overlooking this title to do the research themselves and not overlook this title. The last thing the mmo community needs at this point is not financially supporting games that are progressing the genre and making games we should pay for. Keep and eye out for the open beta and make your judgement of the game based off that.
Summary
Game looks to be a finished product at launch.
At launch game will have end game raid content.
First super hero MMO to correctly use loot and items.
Game at launch has zero crafting, which is a plus considering it would be hard to fit into the genre. Also consider this a plus because developers did not try to force into game to fit the mmo requirement.
Quest are put into a storyline development for your character making the grind to end game more enjoyable.
Has the real feel of creating a character in the DC Universe and experiencing that universe up close and personal.
Huge IP allowing for years of additional content and expansions.
Has the true feel of becoming a super, travel is fast and robust, flying is not limited by a fly-o-meter that only allows you to fly two blocks.
Graphics are robust and well programmed, allowing older systems to play the game.
UI, servers, and controls differ in the PC and PS3. We don't have the fail UI system of Final Fantasy forcing PC players to use a system made for consoles.
PVP content completely developed allowing for both open world and arena style combat. PVP elementals also reflected in talent builds and items.
The green stuff is good news to me, the blue....meh.....the orange is bad, very bad, to me personally. I love crafting, I hate PvP. A lot of this game was sounding good before that though.
I hope that it ends up being a great game, nonetheless. I doubt that it's my cup of tea, now that I read this. Not that I was panting for it's release prior to reading this, but I had looked it up and considered it.....mostly because I am SO FUCKING BORED right now and thought....you know....maybe being a superhero MIGHT be kinda fun......
Anyhow....sounds good for people that like this type of game! I thought it was a good little review!
Just cos it has PVP doesn't mean you have to play it. Much like if it had crafting, it doesn't mean those that dislike crafting would have to do it. The flipside is when the game pretty much requires you to DO those aspects such as PVP and/or crafting in order to get through the game without mindless grinding or whatever.
I'm going to mention WoW now. Don't explode. I'll mention another MMO as well.
In World of Warcraft, I loathe crafting. It feels so ridiculous and stupid. It's as much a grind as the basic levelling is, without the payoff. I think the reason I hate the crafting so much is that the game pretty much requires you to do it either to make your high end stuff or so you can sell it so you can afford to buy your high end stuff. You're forced to craft or be gimped. I usually opt for gimp.
In City of Heroes, crafting is actually a choice. The bonuses the "enhancements" give you are more varied than the ones you can buy, and you don't have to replace them, but they don't give you the sheer numbers that you get from the ones you buy.
Now, some folks argue that crafting in a Superhero MMO is silly, lore wise. "Superman doesn't collect loot and make stuff out of it". This is true to an extent, but he also doesn't gain any levels/powers. He's at the level cap. Being Superman, he kinda was from day 1. Batman builds his own devices and tools, but he uses his massive resources (cash) as Bruce Wayne to buy the materials he needs. We're not super rich. We're not level capped. Surely as low level heroes we'll use whatever means necessay to gain an advantage over our adversaries. On the villain side, usually the stories involve the villains finding some kind of new device/weapon/tool to make life hard for the heroes. A villain would have no qualms in looting the Blue Beetle (who uses a techno-suit) for his devices to have an advantage next time. I think looting/crafting is a concept that could be included in the game and, really, not having it is a little lazy. But maybe, like CoH, they'll introduce it later on. But not having it isn't a game breaker to me.
The other reason I'm not worried about crafting is that the slight bonuses it gives you only really come into play in... PVP.
In WoW, I get the feeling like the whole "adventure" is just leading up to the time when your level 80 (85) and you get to fight each other, because once you've killed your way across Azeroth and all the other continents, only other heroes/players pose a threat.
In CoH PVP is something I had virtually no contact with. I ignored it and I suffered no loss of content, plus I didn't feel like I was simply being taken to a point where I could fight other players. It was there, but it wasn't forced upon me and it wasn't looming in the horizon as the be-all-and-end-all of the game (despite the adversarial relationship of Heroes and Villains).
So, some people argue PVP is the core of MMO games, fighting other players and all that. But I play more for the RPG elements and the co-operative play, not competetive play. I'll probably have a look at PVP in DCUO. Mostly Iconic Play where I can be the characters from the comics I read. But I highly doubt it will become a large part of my play time, but I can see a lot of people want it as part of their game, partly to show off how good they can build a toon and partly to "win". And that's fine. But if I want to be competetive I'll play something like Team Fortress or whatever (I never play Team Fortress or whatever).
If DCUO does or doesn't have crafting and does or doesn't have PVP doesn't matter to me but I guess I'm on the lucky side of things where I don't want either of these aspects. Just don't let the inclusion of an aspect you don't want keep you away from the game.
Wanting crafting and it not being in there... That I can't help you with. But I hope you'll give it a try.
I hope this post will inspire others that are overlooking this title to do the research themselves and not overlook this title. The last thing the mmo community needs at this point is not financially supporting games that are progressing the genre and making games we should pay for. Keep and eye out for the open beta and make your judgement of the game based off that.
Summary
Game looks to be a finished product at launch.
At launch game will have end game raid content.
First super hero MMO to correctly use loot and items.
Game at launch has zero crafting, which is a plus considering it would be hard to fit into the genre. Also consider this a plus because developers did not try to force into game to fit the mmo requirement.
Quest are put into a storyline development for your character making the grind to end game more enjoyable.
Has the real feel of creating a character in the DC Universe and experiencing that universe up close and personal.
Huge IP allowing for years of additional content and expansions.
Has the true feel of becoming a super, travel is fast and robust, flying is not limited by a fly-o-meter that only allows you to fly two blocks.
Graphics are robust and well programmed, allowing older systems to play the game.
UI, servers, and controls differ in the PC and PS3. We don't have the fail UI system of Final Fantasy forcing PC players to use a system made for consoles.
PVP content completely developed allowing for both open world and arena style combat. PVP elementals also reflected in talent builds and items.
The green stuff is good news to me, the blue....meh.....the orange is bad, very bad, to me personally. I love crafting, I hate PvP. A lot of this game was sounding good before that though.
I hope that it ends up being a great game, nonetheless. I doubt that it's my cup of tea, now that I read this. Not that I was panting for it's release prior to reading this, but I had looked it up and considered it.....mostly because I am SO FUCKING BORED right now and thought....you know....maybe being a superhero MIGHT be kinda fun......
Anyhow....sounds good for people that like this type of game! I thought it was a good little review!
There will be PvE and PvP servers seperate plus you will be able to tag yourself for PvP on PvE servers. There won't be any "Contested" areas like WoW where you are forced into PvP.
If you don't like PvP you simply don't have to participate in it.
As for the game being launch ready. I would disagree on that. I hear whispers through the airwaves about gamebreaking bugs that needs fixing. Having said that no MMO on earth has ever been released bug free. The only question remains, if the game is playable enough for a release. Rumors have you believe it still needs to be polished
1) You are splitting hairs. They are not a far cry from each other. Focus testing is a subset of beta testing, not something separate. Some betas set up weekly focus testing schedules.
2) Complete fabrication. From a marketing and sales stand point, delaying the game to avoid competition for holiday sales would be ridiculous. No company would do that. I'm not sure why people want to believe that, or why they want to try and get other people to believe it. It makes absolutely no sense at all. Do you really think they are hoping to make a killing on the late January game buying flood? Uh, no. By avoiding the holiday season, it only hurts them, and they still don't avoid competition in any way. They still have to compete against WoW, regardless of when they release. There is nothing to gain by delaying. No marketing person, worth having a job, would avoid the holiday season to avoid competition. It's far better to compete for holiday sales, than to just give them away. Plus, as I mentioned previously, DCUO is being released on PS3, where they have no competition with Cataclysm. Whatever the reason is for the delay, it has nothing to do with Cataclysm.
1) Focus testing may be a smaller part of beta testing, but it isn't a replacement for beta testing and prior to the delay the developer on several occassions said they were not going to beta test the game. There really is a big difference between a fully open testing environment and a closed focus test. Beta testing isn't made up of many smaller focus tests, because that isn't how players are going to play the game. Really it doesn't work like that, because you can't force normal players to adhere to focused gameplay.
2) I don't think it is complete fabrication and history supports my view as opposed to yours. Soe has never delayed a game for quality reasons. Their history is actually one of rushing incomplete and unfinished games to market with the mentality of "we can finish it later". I can't think of a game they own that didn't go through that mindset. They have specifically set releases dates to beat competition to market in the past. They kicked AC's ass by beating them to market and tried to do the same thing to blizzard with EQ2's release date. They learned the hard lesson about going against world of warcraft, so I can see why they shy away from cataclysm.
Beyond that soe wasn't talking about beta testing being necessary or the game needing more polish until after blizzard announced the release date of cataclysm. Only then did soe decide to delay then start talking about beta.
What you say makes a lot of sense from a business marketing point of view, but soe isn't exactly known for great marketing or doing what should be common sense from a business point of view. You can't take common sense and apply it to soe as if that is how they would opperate in normal situaitons, because on several occassions they have gone directly against what common sense or most people "worth their job" would do in the same situation.
I'm sorry, but that is all still pure speculation. None of that is valid. If the only reason EQ beat AC was because they released first, and releasing first was the key, then they should have/would have released on their original release date ahead of Cataclysm. But clearly that isn't the case. EQ beat it because it was the better game. EQ2 did not lose out because they released around the same time as WoW, they lost out because WoW was a better game at release. Both had claimed to be casual gamer friendly, but EQ2 did not turn out that way. EQ2 would not have done any better by releasing a month or two later. In fact, they would likely have done worse if they had waited until after WoW was released. By leaving WoW as the only game out there, even people waiting for EQ2 would have tried WoW, and they would have lost sales. It is never good to allow the competition to get a foothold before you. EQ2 was not rushed. It was a solid game, it just wasn't what people were looking for. I think that was partially due to them using only current (at the time) EQ1 players as beta testers. They have made a lot of changes to it over the years, and it's a much different game now than it was at release.
You claim that history confirms your conclusion, but that simply isn't the case. There is nothing that indicates, in any way, them delaying due to fear of competition. The simple fact is, there is absolutely nothing to gain by not releasing before or at the same time as Cataclysm. Nothing. It makes no sense at all. If you fail to compete out of fear, you lose. I'm sorry, but simply claiming that "common sense" doesn't apply when talking about SOE, doesn't validate your claim. I'm not sure why you so badly want to believe the delay has anything at all to doe with Cataclysm. I'd be more than happy to acknowledge any real proof you have, but everything you say is speculation. Speculation on the current situation, and speculation on past situations. It's conspiracy theory without a thread of any real evidence.
On the other hand, they have stated why they delayed. Which is concrete proof, though you seem to be saying that is a lie. Again, feel free to provide proof. There are also tones of recent videos out there, and we can plainly see that there ARE still bugs in the game, and voiceovers that are still placeholders. Plus they said they felt that they needed to focus on more depth to what is already there. It makes sense to delay to work on the game more. Avoiding competition makes none.
I'm not sure what the big deal is with focused testing vs beta testing. Focus testing is not prevent regular beta testing in addition to focus testing. It's all irrelevant since they are doing full beta testing now. it doesn't really matter that in the past someone felt that beta testing wouldn't be needed.
There is simply no way that any sales department is going to bypass the holiday season and give up all those extra sales. Plus, I don't know how much research you have spent on this game, but a huge part of the fan base is PS3 users, which does not compete at all with Cataclysm. There is no way they would give up all those potential holiday sales. DCUO isn't competing with WoW anyway. It is not going to be a typical MMORPG, as they have stated many times. It's an MMO with console style combat. Many WoW players will probably not like it anyway. It's going to appeal to people looking for something different.
I don't think we can compare releaseing against Cataclysm, the third expansion for probably the most popular/highest grossing video game of all time with the initial release of said game in a virtually unknown genre.
It seems odd that some folks say "everything the devs say is scripted and not necessarily the truth" and other folks say "what the devs say is concrete proof" when both of those points are speculation in and of themselves.
Most people claiming that the Cata release announcement made DC delay are supported by the timing of said announcement. Some folks say hours, others MINUTES were all that seperated the two announcements. This seems like circumstantial, not-necessarily conclusive, but pretty hard to ignore evidence. They said they don't need a beta. They gave us a date for release and then WHAM, they can give us no fixed date and they announce full scale beta testing.
Of course, the fact that once the beta started the leaked footage has shown they really DID need a beta, and if some of the voice work is just placeholders, doesn't that mean they were ALWAYS going to push back the release? Game releases get pushed back all the time, sometimes to coincide (or not coincide) with other things and sometimes because the game is genuinely not ready. DCUO seems to have legitimately not been ready which would strongly point to the game's delay being because of that.
I don't think we'll ever really know what was the true reason, the deciding factor, though I would imagine it was probably a combination of both the Cata release AND the discovery that they couldn't clear out the bugs in time. Releasing a polished, finished game against Cata in time for the holidays is one thing, but releasing early November with a buggy disaster of a launch isn't going to get you any holiday sales over the juggernaut of the industry. Like releasing a low-budget movie at the start of June and expecting it to do well over the 4th of July weekend against the Hollywood blockbuster that gets released that weekend. Not gonna happen (there have been occasions when low-budget movies have been much better than the blockbusters, yes, but I'm generalising).
We all love to hate the massively disasterous launches of past games... Anarchy Online, Age of Conan (sorry to single you out, Funcom)... And I highly doubt that if the DCUO launch had been as buggy as most MMO launches are it would have competed with Cata in any way, shape or form.
My thoughts on the delayed release are a combination of the most like causes. They decided to Beta test and de-bug, so as to release a polished, shining product rather than permanently cripple their market share by taking on Cata with an unfinished product.
Comments
They said it only needed an internal beta, which is pretty much crap for an MMO, I think. IMHO, this is partly because MMOs tend to have gear treadmills and are designed to milk the fun for sub money as much as possible (so they have to test to make sure the fun isn't stretched too thinly), and partly because an exploit only one person in a 1000 would normally find can spread and make a big problem (granted FPS, RTS, and other games can have this same problem).
Frankly, I am not expecting much from DCUO.
I love how people make their determinations on things without even playing them. I was in a league of legends game earlier today that before a single character was picked a guy was saying we were going to lose. Most of the things people are saying here is not based off fact but rather a bad taste that you have from your own history with mmo's. While some of the people on this board and site find that kind of discussion to be productive I find it to be childish and without facts. Play the game when it gets to open beta and make your own decision.
But then again if your looking for nothing but negatives than the game will fail before you ever play it. Mindset sets a mood and if your mood is bad than you will for sure have a bad first impression. MMO's are a social media and just like any type of media people will either love it or hate it, the key is putting out a product that is good enough to launch instead of rushing it for box sales.
Isn't this exactly what you did in the very first post of this thread?
Not exactly, I listed facts about the game and how i felt about them, by watching video's and demo's.
I'm late to the argument, but it seems to me that you just proved that guy's point...
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How exactly ? Speculation and facts are two very different things.
and how you felt about them.
When other people feel differently about the facts, suddenly they are being crazy.
Your not discussing the facts, your talking about anything but the facts. Give me three things you have talked about DC Universe and the facts they are based off of.
You do realize all the things the developers talk about are scripted by the public relations people first, correct? You also realize the developers themselves are not supposed to talk about anything unless cleared with the PR staff first, right? They already mentioned a few times that they would like to go into more specifics about the game, but fear the wrath of their PR staff.
What they realized from the closed, private beta was that the game simply was not ready. After XIVs shocking launch, I doubt SOE themselves were willing to take a similar risk. I've been watching a friend play for over a week now and in its current state, it would've received a mediocre mark in reviews. Glaring issues are present still, and it was a title that was supposed to be released on Nov.2nd.
Developers and everyday MMO players should've realized by now...it will not matter if you release a game near a WoW date or half a year away from it. If it's bad, it's bad. If it's good, it will draw in the crowd. It's as simple as that. The delay has nothing to do with WoWs expansion date.
Sure I realize all of those things play some factor, but that doesn't change that soe was planning to release the game without a beta testing and only delayed after blizzard announced cataclysms release date.
I'm not debating what the condition of the game was (good or bad) or that it is simple common sense that bad games do poorly. After seeing game after game after game release in horrible shape it is obvious that developers do not care or they simply can't get the job done. Take your pick, but I don't think the condition alone was stopping soe. Everything up to Oct 3rd was leading to a nov 2nd release date.
If soe had a history of delaying their products so as to release them in a polished and completed condition I would agree with you, but history doesn't support that theory. It actually speaks to the contrary.
...
How DARE you not mension how awesomely fun the action combat is!!!
The fighting is really fun! theres nothing like
a) Using a flamethrower then comboing a guy then knocking him with your rifles behind then machine gunning him down then rolling back while shooting then firing a mortar at him
b) Use those katars to uppercut a guy into the air, chase after him, combo him in the air Marvel Vs Capcom style, Knock him down, toss a shuriken, combo him more, then use a smoke bomb as he dies.
c) Whack a guy with your bow, kick him up into the air, fire at him legolas style then end with a charged exploding arrow, fire more arrows then end with another legolas style arrow barrage
d) Tazer someone then pepper spray him in the face.
There are other comboes but I havent seen it in the vids yet... >.<
You guys should go watch more dcuo vids :P
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**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
I'm afraid you are mistaken as DCUO has been overwhelmingly shown to have been delayed due to one thing, the release of Cataclysm. Why else would the delay have been announced within hours (probably minutes) of Cataclysm's announced release date? And even given the remote possibility that it wasn't ready, isn't that the norm for newly released mmos anyways?
Wow Fan boys must be right. I mean obviously given the success of world of warcraft a game would be stupid to go up against it. I mean who would honestly push back a release to polish a product.
Past mmo's have nothing to do with the future, companies are no longer gonna release half done products, atleast the companies that matter. Games like rift are going to set the bar higher for the market. DCUO only has one shot to release their game, pushing it back to make sure the polish is in is a good thing, stop trying to make everything about world of warcraft. Just because wow is your life doesn't mean everyone else bases their life off it.
dj, I've seen you multiple times link STO to NCsoft. Star Trek Online was not released by NCsoft. It was released by Atari, developed by Cryptic. NCsoft had absolutely nothing to do with that turd so please stop saying they did.
Also just a friendly suggestion, it is frowned upon to make 2 or 3 posts in a row. If you want to respond to multiple people, quote them all instead of making 2 or 3 posts right after one another.
Why do you feel the need to constantly name call those who don't agree with you? Troll this, fanboi that. Why not just stick to the topic instead of sinking to this level of insulting? It just weakens your points.
I doubt you have played rifts yet to make comments that it will released so polished that it will change the industry. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Didn't you just complain that people were making judgements of games without playing them, but here you are doing that very same thing... like you did in the original post.
How can you say companies are no longer going to release half finished products? Did you miss what just happened last month with square enix and final fantasy 14? Gaming companies didn't learn after EQ2. They didn't learn after Vanguard. They didn't learn after Tabula Rasa or Conan or Warhammer or Champions online or Star Trek or APB or on and on and on.
Maybe things will be different with the next mmo that releases, but what information do you have that says anything will change? Why should the history of the genre and specific companies just be ignored with the assumption that nothing like that will happen again? Isn't that a rather large leap of faith when all things are considered?
Note: nothing above is about wow.
Are you not a fan of wow? You constantly talked about the release date being moved back by the announcement of cataclysm. Take that and the fact that the signature has you actively playing world of warcraft, the two seem oddly linked. When i refer to someone trolling its as an action because they aren't listing facts, but rather attacking me, which seems to be common for the thread.
Discussing my opinions of the facts is nothing more than that. I am still listing FACTS, the problem with these threads is that 95% of the people who read this don't comment, the only ones who do comment are only here to bring negative attention.
Defending past companies is not something I can or will do. I have said for many years that many companies don't take full advantage of the genre. MMO's are one of the largest social media business of this generation and can easily generate massive amounts of revenue. Rather the industry has turned the genre into a mill pumping out games for first month subs and box sales with very little concern for retention.
Which brings me to the future of MMO's, note this is nothing more than an educated prediction and can easily be proven false at the release of future titles. That being said everything I have heard and seen from Trion leads me to believe that they understand all the points I previously made and are working to release polished products that can be expanded on, instead of consumers paying for 6 months of beta and patches. Companies are in the business of making money and World of Warcraft has shown that a well done product can generate over a billion dollars a year. Why would any company be willing to give up that kind of money to rush a worthless product.
In regards to your last point I think its in human nature to learn from mistakes and build upon them. Development of MMO's take years upon years and we are now going to start seeing the result of that last 5 years of work by a lot of companies. Hopefully the community becomes a better place, because right now people have zero faith in any product.
I am officially done with this thread because it has gone past the point of being useful. The thread was intended to show my initial feelings about a pre launch and its potential. I had also overlooked the title and didn't want others to make the same mistake, just because of the previous failings of both SOE and the comic book mmo genre. What this has turned into is a list of negative things about the mmo industry and me defending my views and feelings about a product that hasn't been released. Twist and turn that into whatever you want but I grow tired of discussing irrelevant things like the difference between focus testing and beta testing. Theories about how every company is scared to release against WoW and their expansion. Even with all these things said it still does not change my opinions on the facts of this game. I believe that DCUO is a huge step in the right direction and one of the best, if not the best product that SOE has ever released. If one person gives this game a chance that otherwise would have overlooked the title than this post is a success in my mind. Have fun with whatever title you want to play and see you on the battlefield.
I just hope people give it a chance. Sure SOE have got some bad history going on, but I give DC and Warner Bros more credit. I doubt they'll let anything majorly bad happen because of how it reflects on them. I wasn't around for the Galaxies fiascoe, or all the other major issues eevryone seems to have with SOE, but I know that WB takes DC and its branding very seriously.
I'm going to play DCUO. I'm 99% sure I'll enjoy it. The game looks nice and it seems to run nicely from the Beta videos out there. The main problems I can see coming up are the story/possible lack-of and the ease with which canon could be abandoned for the sake of the game, but as I said, those two areas are DC/WB's concern and the current folks running DC don't let that kinda stuff happen.
It may have been delayed for Cata. It may have been delayed for quality. The speed of the turnaround from "Nov 2" to "sometime next year" would suggest the former while "not having a beta" is such a ridiculous idea that it would suggest the latter. The main point to be taken from this, however, is that it will make a better release no matter the reason. I'm in Ausralia so I probably won't see it till after the major North American release, but I hope the game is good enough that any of you who pick it up are still playing when I get to see it for myself.
I'm sorry, but raiding is the worst kind of content there is for an MMO. Boring, repetitive and unrewarding hamster grinds do not a good game make. Not sure why you would consider that a positive aspect of this game, especially an action game.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Differant people like differant things. I never EVER touch PVP, I don't enjoy it, in any game and I have my opinions as to how little value PVP is to a game, but some people enjoy it so the fact that it is in the game will get more people playing. THAT is a good thing,
Summary
Game looks to be a finished product at launch.
At launch game will have end game raid content.
First super hero MMO to correctly use loot and items.
Game at launch has zero crafting, which is a plus considering it would be hard to fit into the genre. Also consider this a plus because developers did not try to force into game to fit the mmo requirement.
Quest are put into a storyline development for your character making the grind to end game more enjoyable.
Has the real feel of creating a character in the DC Universe and experiencing that universe up close and personal.
Huge IP allowing for years of additional content and expansions.
Has the true feel of becoming a super, travel is fast and robust, flying is not limited by a fly-o-meter that only allows you to fly two blocks.
Graphics are robust and well programmed, allowing older systems to play the game.
UI, servers, and controls differ in the PC and PS3. We don't have the fail UI system of Final Fantasy forcing PC players to use a system made for consoles.
PVP content completely developed allowing for both open world and arena style combat. PVP elementals also reflected in talent builds and items.
The green stuff is good news to me, the blue....meh.....the orange is bad, very bad, to me personally. I love crafting, I hate PvP. A lot of this game was sounding good before that though.
I hope that it ends up being a great game, nonetheless. I doubt that it's my cup of tea, now that I read this. Not that I was panting for it's release prior to reading this, but I had looked it up and considered it.....mostly because I am SO FUCKING BORED right now and thought....you know....maybe being a superhero MIGHT be kinda fun......
Anyhow....sounds good for people that like this type of game! I thought it was a good little review!
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Just cos it has PVP doesn't mean you have to play it. Much like if it had crafting, it doesn't mean those that dislike crafting would have to do it. The flipside is when the game pretty much requires you to DO those aspects such as PVP and/or crafting in order to get through the game without mindless grinding or whatever.
I'm going to mention WoW now. Don't explode. I'll mention another MMO as well.
In World of Warcraft, I loathe crafting. It feels so ridiculous and stupid. It's as much a grind as the basic levelling is, without the payoff. I think the reason I hate the crafting so much is that the game pretty much requires you to do it either to make your high end stuff or so you can sell it so you can afford to buy your high end stuff. You're forced to craft or be gimped. I usually opt for gimp.
In City of Heroes, crafting is actually a choice. The bonuses the "enhancements" give you are more varied than the ones you can buy, and you don't have to replace them, but they don't give you the sheer numbers that you get from the ones you buy.
Now, some folks argue that crafting in a Superhero MMO is silly, lore wise. "Superman doesn't collect loot and make stuff out of it". This is true to an extent, but he also doesn't gain any levels/powers. He's at the level cap. Being Superman, he kinda was from day 1. Batman builds his own devices and tools, but he uses his massive resources (cash) as Bruce Wayne to buy the materials he needs. We're not super rich. We're not level capped. Surely as low level heroes we'll use whatever means necessay to gain an advantage over our adversaries. On the villain side, usually the stories involve the villains finding some kind of new device/weapon/tool to make life hard for the heroes. A villain would have no qualms in looting the Blue Beetle (who uses a techno-suit) for his devices to have an advantage next time. I think looting/crafting is a concept that could be included in the game and, really, not having it is a little lazy. But maybe, like CoH, they'll introduce it later on. But not having it isn't a game breaker to me.
The other reason I'm not worried about crafting is that the slight bonuses it gives you only really come into play in... PVP.
In WoW, I get the feeling like the whole "adventure" is just leading up to the time when your level 80 (85) and you get to fight each other, because once you've killed your way across Azeroth and all the other continents, only other heroes/players pose a threat.
In CoH PVP is something I had virtually no contact with. I ignored it and I suffered no loss of content, plus I didn't feel like I was simply being taken to a point where I could fight other players. It was there, but it wasn't forced upon me and it wasn't looming in the horizon as the be-all-and-end-all of the game (despite the adversarial relationship of Heroes and Villains).
So, some people argue PVP is the core of MMO games, fighting other players and all that. But I play more for the RPG elements and the co-operative play, not competetive play. I'll probably have a look at PVP in DCUO. Mostly Iconic Play where I can be the characters from the comics I read. But I highly doubt it will become a large part of my play time, but I can see a lot of people want it as part of their game, partly to show off how good they can build a toon and partly to "win". And that's fine. But if I want to be competetive I'll play something like Team Fortress or whatever (I never play Team Fortress or whatever).
If DCUO does or doesn't have crafting and does or doesn't have PVP doesn't matter to me but I guess I'm on the lucky side of things where I don't want either of these aspects. Just don't let the inclusion of an aspect you don't want keep you away from the game.
Wanting crafting and it not being in there... That I can't help you with. But I hope you'll give it a try.
There will be PvE and PvP servers seperate plus you will be able to tag yourself for PvP on PvE servers. There won't be any "Contested" areas like WoW where you are forced into PvP.
If you don't like PvP you simply don't have to participate in it.
As for the game being launch ready. I would disagree on that. I hear whispers through the airwaves about gamebreaking bugs that needs fixing. Having said that no MMO on earth has ever been released bug free. The only question remains, if the game is playable enough for a release. Rumors have you believe it still needs to be polished
I'm sorry, but that is all still pure speculation. None of that is valid. If the only reason EQ beat AC was because they released first, and releasing first was the key, then they should have/would have released on their original release date ahead of Cataclysm. But clearly that isn't the case. EQ beat it because it was the better game. EQ2 did not lose out because they released around the same time as WoW, they lost out because WoW was a better game at release. Both had claimed to be casual gamer friendly, but EQ2 did not turn out that way. EQ2 would not have done any better by releasing a month or two later. In fact, they would likely have done worse if they had waited until after WoW was released. By leaving WoW as the only game out there, even people waiting for EQ2 would have tried WoW, and they would have lost sales. It is never good to allow the competition to get a foothold before you. EQ2 was not rushed. It was a solid game, it just wasn't what people were looking for. I think that was partially due to them using only current (at the time) EQ1 players as beta testers. They have made a lot of changes to it over the years, and it's a much different game now than it was at release.
You claim that history confirms your conclusion, but that simply isn't the case. There is nothing that indicates, in any way, them delaying due to fear of competition. The simple fact is, there is absolutely nothing to gain by not releasing before or at the same time as Cataclysm. Nothing. It makes no sense at all. If you fail to compete out of fear, you lose. I'm sorry, but simply claiming that "common sense" doesn't apply when talking about SOE, doesn't validate your claim. I'm not sure why you so badly want to believe the delay has anything at all to doe with Cataclysm. I'd be more than happy to acknowledge any real proof you have, but everything you say is speculation. Speculation on the current situation, and speculation on past situations. It's conspiracy theory without a thread of any real evidence.
On the other hand, they have stated why they delayed. Which is concrete proof, though you seem to be saying that is a lie. Again, feel free to provide proof. There are also tones of recent videos out there, and we can plainly see that there ARE still bugs in the game, and voiceovers that are still placeholders. Plus they said they felt that they needed to focus on more depth to what is already there. It makes sense to delay to work on the game more. Avoiding competition makes none.
I'm not sure what the big deal is with focused testing vs beta testing. Focus testing is not prevent regular beta testing in addition to focus testing. It's all irrelevant since they are doing full beta testing now. it doesn't really matter that in the past someone felt that beta testing wouldn't be needed.
There is simply no way that any sales department is going to bypass the holiday season and give up all those extra sales. Plus, I don't know how much research you have spent on this game, but a huge part of the fan base is PS3 users, which does not compete at all with Cataclysm. There is no way they would give up all those potential holiday sales. DCUO isn't competing with WoW anyway. It is not going to be a typical MMORPG, as they have stated many times. It's an MMO with console style combat. Many WoW players will probably not like it anyway. It's going to appeal to people looking for something different.
I don't think we can compare releaseing against Cataclysm, the third expansion for probably the most popular/highest grossing video game of all time with the initial release of said game in a virtually unknown genre.
It seems odd that some folks say "everything the devs say is scripted and not necessarily the truth" and other folks say "what the devs say is concrete proof" when both of those points are speculation in and of themselves.
Most people claiming that the Cata release announcement made DC delay are supported by the timing of said announcement. Some folks say hours, others MINUTES were all that seperated the two announcements. This seems like circumstantial, not-necessarily conclusive, but pretty hard to ignore evidence. They said they don't need a beta. They gave us a date for release and then WHAM, they can give us no fixed date and they announce full scale beta testing.
Of course, the fact that once the beta started the leaked footage has shown they really DID need a beta, and if some of the voice work is just placeholders, doesn't that mean they were ALWAYS going to push back the release? Game releases get pushed back all the time, sometimes to coincide (or not coincide) with other things and sometimes because the game is genuinely not ready. DCUO seems to have legitimately not been ready which would strongly point to the game's delay being because of that.
I don't think we'll ever really know what was the true reason, the deciding factor, though I would imagine it was probably a combination of both the Cata release AND the discovery that they couldn't clear out the bugs in time. Releasing a polished, finished game against Cata in time for the holidays is one thing, but releasing early November with a buggy disaster of a launch isn't going to get you any holiday sales over the juggernaut of the industry. Like releasing a low-budget movie at the start of June and expecting it to do well over the 4th of July weekend against the Hollywood blockbuster that gets released that weekend. Not gonna happen (there have been occasions when low-budget movies have been much better than the blockbusters, yes, but I'm generalising).
We all love to hate the massively disasterous launches of past games... Anarchy Online, Age of Conan (sorry to single you out, Funcom)... And I highly doubt that if the DCUO launch had been as buggy as most MMO launches are it would have competed with Cata in any way, shape or form.
My thoughts on the delayed release are a combination of the most like causes. They decided to Beta test and de-bug, so as to release a polished, shining product rather than permanently cripple their market share by taking on Cata with an unfinished product.