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Crowd Control Dead?
Warzod
Member RarePosts: 508
So I am an oldschool Everquest player and fondly recall the days of gaming where crowd control was a major factor into any engagement from the beginning. In recent years it seems that with the rapidly accelerating moronification of online games things such as teamwork and crowd control have faded to legends of a by gone day.
Here is my conundrum... that is my playstyle. Those are the classes I love. The enchanters, the bards, the mezmerisers, etc, etc. Now a days however, tactics have devolved into, tank pulls 5 or 6 groups and then all the u84r d33ps burn it down in a couple seconds. Now while I understand that is very satisfying in a simplistic sort of, ring the bell, get a pellet, kind of way I personally am looking for a deeper gaming experience.
So I ask you, the amassed MMORPG wisdom base, where, if anywhere does this playstyle still exist? I obviously tried WoW... yeah that joke doesn't even need a punchline. I remembered how fun and hard EQ was but... EQ2 evidently is World of Norrathcraft and I returned to EQ1 only to find that the years had not been kind and SOE's anti-midas hands had pretty much mauled the original experience into oblivion.
So what have you got lords and ladies? Those of you that enjoy that control character, the one that holds the ebb and flow of combat in their hands. Where have you found homes? What games out there still believe that gamers want more from their experience then... ding! *pellet*
Comments
One word LOTRO
Reeeeheheeeheally? Hrm, I tried it at launch and remember I was annoyed they dedicated an entire trade skill to making shaped smoke clouds... I remember I did like their scholar class while I played. The game is good?
The most difficult thing I find in balance playtesting is that of the Jester class.
This is a Pure Support/Support role class.
Support is about more than just Healing, it is about Buffing (and a new concept called Active Buffs) as well as CROWD CONTROL. A lot of classes have Crowd Control, but the pure support class has both Offensive AND Defensive Crowd Control.
This means movement bonuses and freedom of Crowd control AND the ability to cause crowd control.
Why is this so hard to balance? Especially in PvP, Crowd Control is a big deal. It can be *THE* determining factor in a group winning. If CC is overpowered, then all you need is to CC all but ONE enemy, and focus on him.
Being a big fan of CC allows me to ask YOU what you would like in PvP when it comes to a CC character. This doesn't just stop at PvP, as PvE is important too-- but PvP is a big deal with Crowd Control and Balance.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
the thing is people like fast combat not slow combat. it adds rush and excitment to combat much like first person shooters.
the majority of new mmo are more and more implementing fast paced hack and slash combat instead of long drawn out chess matches with long cc chains, buffs, debuffs dots and all that jaz. it's an overall dumbing down of the combat wile increasing the short burst of excitment with high instant damage.
now, when you die very fast getting cced is no fun. this is where you see less and less cc, or cc that lasts less and less time. i personaly thing that if cc is long than damage should be low and vice versa. it's always a fine line for balance.
I guess I won't have as much of a problem then. Combat is slow (although we want it to feel fast-paced and exciting). By slow I mean difficult to kill another player. NOT difficult to force them to retreat because of inevitable death.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Emergence - I personally am not much of a PvP player. The constant grindfest race for the best gear and gankfests... just not my cup of tea. I believe, since we are speaking of CC, that is was the rediculously overpowered nature of Hibernia and Midgard's AoE CC's that finally did me in in that arena. This Jester class, this is a LoTRO class?
Jak - The adrenaline felt during fast paced combat is nice but... there it another high that is completely lost with today's MMOs. Ask anyone that played EQ when it first came out. The fear, the apprehension of a pull. Trying a new zone and finding a camp spot just far enough in to get to the mobs your level but no so far that the zone line was not within running distance. Realizing there were mobs behind you as well as infront, wondering what was just beyond the next corner or set of doors because going there would mean certain death for your team. When the puller would get one too many could your CC handle the add? Are we going to have the mana to burn them all down before going OOM?
Today's games have taken so many mechanics and risks out of the game that your comparison is hauntingly accurate. Todays MMO's are more like FPS games than RPGs. That used to be what made FPS games popular with their crowd was that there was no need for building a character, or finding items, no time getting to a fight or risks associated with loss. It was all pew pew, boom boom, weee!
Now, do not misunderstand. There is a very distinct need for that style of outlet but.. my concern is that the entire MMO industry has embraced this model so amorously that almost all semblance of their original design is being lost. Why now are those gamers that actually enjoyed the old style being left out in the cold because out of touch bottom liners at publishing firms only see the cash in churning out another mind-numbing digital Tinker-Toy.
Get out of EQ/WoW mold. Try Dragonica, it is not great, but you will realize how limited is your view about CC. You can have both, it is easy, just get of of the mold.
Or, play DDO, it has absolutely brutal CC. I can charm whole dungeon and put it under my control if I wish.
Just get out the the mold, it is not MMOs, it is you.
I believe dc universe is adding some fast paced crowd control, they have to, telek powers and more, and I seen some gameplay vids and see some light cc on the bounty hunter in kotor but do not know beyond that, anyways cc can easily be thrown into fast paced gameplay if done right there is no excuse at all to take it away the truth is eq2 is all aoe dps now, there just dumbing the game down while wow is trying to undumb there gameplay some.
And cox is still very good about there crowd control classes, they are quite unique in this game.
So cc is not dying and probably never will.
There is some great hope for pulling maybe star wars will implement this well, there is some nice pulling in cox, but its a bit more challenging then eq since its mostly full of encounter fights.
Dc universe its quite possible hard to tell at this point, guild wars 2 perhaps?
Tyr - While your response was an obvious hostile troll I would not normally respond to I was still willing to take the information and looked up Dragonica. It was at that time that I was certain it was a joke. In a thread looking for a more visceral, hardcore, deeper, less quarter arcade experience you suggested this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbd3Orp8phI
And as for DDO... if you can charm and entire dungeon I would hardly call that high risk. Thank you though.
Angel - I appreciate the suggestions and will most deffinately check out those titles when they release but... I was kind of curious about what is out now? You said that CC is not dead and never will be. OK, so... can you give some suggestions on games in current release?
CC isn't dying. The way CC is implemented is, though. Original CC involved completely disabling targets on a CD, and successfully managing the timetables associated with those CDs to ensure that the maximum number of targets were disabled at all times.
Nowadays, games are drifting more towards a counter-driven CC systems. One where instant disable skills are less common, last for a shorter amount of time, and have longer cooldowns. The most current game to have that more oldschool style of CC would be LotRO, but even that game has implemented more situational skills. (you can use CC skill X, only have event / status Y has been triggered). You can find similar types of things in WAR, GW, and to a lesser extent WoW.
The big reason for this is two-fold.
1) Games are faster paced without the mass useage of AoE disable skills.
2) Games are becoming more & more community driven (focused on players with & against other players). In a sense, PvE and PvP are becoming more synergized, whereas before they were kept on completely opposite sides of the room.
So while on the surface games seem to be more dumbed down and more twitch-heavy; the end result is we are seeing very new types of gameplay emerging from the unique problems that come with merging the PvE and PvP mindset. As was posted earlier, I would seriously try to broaden your mindset when it comes to CC. There's a lot of fun possibilities when it comes to CC (as someone who also enjoys CC / support classes), that you are probably missing out on.
- One example would be the mesmer class from GW1. Very much a CC class, but capable of so many kinds of playstyles. You could disable groups of people, but you had to time your skills right and look for certain types of attacks that could be countered & shutdown.
I doubt you will like my answer, but Eve Online has CC. Electronic warfare ships are CC ships. Jamming the enemies preventing them from targetting someone, draining capacitors to prevent them from activating modules...
Melbourne Developer Group Recruitment - http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/328931/Melbourne-Game-Development-Group-Recruitment.html
Umm....no.
Turbine has made end game CC'ers pretty much useless with the way they've designed encounters and made bossees immune to CC. So you spend your whole character advancement stages learning how to play the character only to have it's skills rendered useless intentionally at end game because the developers are too lazy developing a F2P conversion and cash shop rather than designing challenging content.
As to the OP, sorry, but if you find something please let me know because I am growing weary of the catering to the ADHD crowd mentality prevalent in so many games now.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Aesperus - Good stuff. So what happens to those players that still enjoy the original manifestation of CC? I played War for quite a while but left during the huge firemage OP AoE nightmare. I did go back this year to find that even on a high pop server like Volkmar I spent two weeks looking for a group before I finally left again. Seems unless you are doing their instanced BGs there really isn't a lot of community to be had anymore.
And on community, it is really unfair to say that it required a shift to more PvP models to have community. Early PvE MMOs had massive community. When it required coordinating 80 people over the course of several days to clear the Plane of Air community is a must. PvP is a huge influence on today's MMOs. Some would argue that developers do it to give players something to do once they burn through their miniscule content. Early games were difficult and took a long time to master/get through. Some players complained... next games were made easier, leveling faster. Players ran out of content faster. Some players complained... PvP was added as a mini-game to help keep the end gamers busy while new content was created. Developers could not consolidate how character abilities worked differently between PvE and PvP. Some players complained... developers began changing the way the PvE experience worked to make it more in line with the PvP experience. Now generation of games later the PvE experience as originally envisioned is almost gone and PvP rules the design.
The issue at large is not that the current design of games like WoW are wrong, but that there are no real alternatives for those that enjoy playing the original way. With the MMO market saturated to the extent it is now I really think there is room for some firms to put out a few MMOs offering alternative playstyles. We have quite enough PvP MMOs.
Actually, I love your answer. I flew a Scorpion in EvE but when I moved into low sec every corp I was ever in just wanted tacklers and DPS ships. I think in the entire time I played I saw maybe one or two other CC ships in fleets I fought with. If you play EvE and are in a good corp that uses CC send me a PM, I may come join you.
Im afraid the days of EQ1 style CC are gone..
I cant think of one game today that comes close....LOTRO kinda,but compared to EQ1 its very watered down.
I'm a carebear atm. I gave up on alliances after a few disaster. Now me and a friend are in a 2 man corp, slowly building up our bpos before we get back into the 0.0 alliance thing. Already have 3 freighter bpos + the component bpos for it. Will be working on carrier bpo next and once we start building carriers, we'll join an alliance and move to nullsec once more.
Melbourne Developer Group Recruitment - http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/328931/Melbourne-Game-Development-Group-Recruitment.html
Best CC class i ever played in a MMO, the Anarchy Online Bureaucrat.
Is this suppose to be a serious topic or is my level of moronification to high from playing too many post UO mmorpgs to grasp it's true meaning? Seriously, it seems like you were trying to infuse your topic with wit but it failed to do so. And it's a shame too with such an interesting topic, maybe next time you could leave out the hyperbolic pseudoism. Be that as it may, it seems like you're obviously trying to cater to the more spitful lot on these forums so I'll leave you to your devices.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
My friend, cox is city of heroes/city of villians there is a free trial even for the going rogue expansion on the 29th you can get the going rogue expansions and get 30 days free I think city of heroes comes with it not sure about city of villians but check it out its been out for 7 years now, and the graphics still rock in my opinion. And it is very populated and if you love teaming the game is practicly based off of it, anyways I might come back to it today so let me know and we can add each other ill give ya info.
Play on virtue its an rp server but freedom is more full of powergamers those 2 servers are the most populated.
As for the crowd control classes, you can play a dominator or controller, dominator is a villian but if you want to play on heros side play the neautral side first and then you can move to heroes or villians with any archtype. You can a wide of variety of controllers, they even get a few pets well most do, anyways there is fire control, storm control, illusion control, plant control, ice control, earth control, and various others the secondary sets that you can pick are blasts like, electric blast, ice blast, fire blast basicly your damage, the dominator is kind of the same except there blasting is there primary so they do more damage then controllers with being a little less powerful in the controlling area.
Anyways I hope this helps, just fyi there are other archtypes that can use controls as well not as good as a controller but for example dark/dark defender get controls,debuffs, dot dps, a pet, and other tools all in one.
I am very shocked no one has recommended this game, its doing very good right now cannot say for sure if dc universe will beat cox all depends on if they have some really nice updates soon, so far they have been doing great updates this past year.
Like I said if you want massive controls this is the way to go, you can control many enemys at once with these archtypes.
Aguitha - Amen, I loved that game. It is just soo dead now. I have popped back from time to time. I even joined OmniPol, one of the largest and oldest corps in the game. Still could never get anyone to group with. By the way, my main was a solitus BC.
Angel - CoX is a good example. I played an earth/storm controller to 50 on Justice. I am curious about Virtue though. Didn't even know the game had an RP server. May be time for me to dry clean my tights. Excelsior!!
I dont know how it is now, but when I played Aion at release, the CC is(was?) required in that game. Be it Fire temple when you have so few skills, open dungeons with rampant training chinese Qinah farmers, and the constant Alquima labs runs due to the broken drop rate for Asmodians had me enjoying every second of it. I eventually retired after a few DP runs and Lannock runs before the good stuff began to drop.
Again, I dont know how it plays now, but back then, you were required to CC, and maintain CC, AoE derping by a glad could get you dead fast. The premier CC class would be the Sorcerer, followed by Ranger/Spirit Master (Ranger required to trap mobs, Spirit master Fear them into a wall/root them in place, some argue less viable, but a smart/good Ranger/SM could replace a Sorc)
As for slow paced and not being fun, I had plenty of fun compared to my recent foray into WoW's LFD AoE retardoland instances. The addition of mobs threat radius to your radar would help in determining pulls, being able to mark, and then bind a key to target that mark (The only feature I would beg for WoW to implement if I were bothered to play it again) made PvE and PvP much more efficient. Target one poor bastard with an icon, everyone presses their bound key to target that mark, that poor bastard gets blowd up. It made keeping track of CC'd targets easier, could just tap the key for CC and have a look at the debuff timer then go back to the focus target with keybinds, rather than tab spam, or mouse hunt.
Again, I dont know how it plays now, if its gone the way of Herp Derp AoE retardo mechanics, but when I did play, you had to have a solid reliable group, a Tank that knew his job, a CC that didnt lag, and a healer with half a brain (That was me XD, seriously, only need half a brain/attention) Might be worth having a look at some gameplay videos, except the servers are horribly out of balance at the moment due to the failure of NCWest to organise server transfers correctly, so if you are interested, have a look at the official forums, then try to find a server that isnt brutally skewed.
Oh, if you do find a game that has a focus more on CC and organised solid group play, and less on AoE retardation faceroll with complete randoms, let me know, I am a thinking mammal that prefers to engage my brain once in a while, even when gaming.
LOTRO is the only game since EverQuest that I've played through to end game, everything else just bored or frustrated me long before then. Yes, that includes WoW. I played a Loremaster, which is the CC class, but to be honest, it really isn't that needed. It has some neat tricks, like being able to daze a mob for about 30 seconds, an area stun, debuffs and so on, but the game is so easy most of the time it really is just a neat trick. It's not that needed.
The only time I remember CC being truly needed was in one of the first raid zones, where some of the mobs were really tough. Like, a pull would bring two, so you'd CC the one and deal with the other. But since then raids have become 6 man experiences, some even less, so it's really not needed anymore. A shame, it was a fun class.