How the heck did Dungeons & Dragons Online do healers/healing?
I love that games design.
Can't tell you about DDO because I didn't play it but just look at pen&paper or the NWN type of healers:
The cleric buffs before the fight, during the fight he might throw a heal but frequently he's a second rate damage dealer (both melee and casting) and after the fight he heals the injured party members.
NWN doesn't know hitpoint regen like most MMORPGs do, therefore the healer heals after a battle when potions are rare and plays a hybrid healer/caster/melee role during the fight, a role many people find more interesting than the pure combat-healer role.
And yes, I miss my DAoC cleric too.
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I was exlusively a healer for quite some time, healing in EQ was very challenging.. thats why i enjoyed it... one wrong heal and your LOADING....PLEASE WAIT..
But like you say, devs. are making healers obsolete... EQ now has Mercenary's.... totaly forgeting about the Boxing epidemic.. theres no room for a healer anymore, because A. they either have a healer merc, or B. they are boxing a healer.
I Healed as a Priest in wow, did quite a few raids... and it got quite tiresome... for instance, purely an example... was doing a grull raid back in BC... and a huntard Auto-ran right into grull, as she screamed... zomg my pillow hit my keyboard, hurp derp.. after the raid wiped, i was screamed at for not being ready and healing too my 100% potential... i was like Whaaaaaaa? we were about 5-10 minutes away from pulling, we hadnt drank our pots.. or refreshed our buffs...or even rezd the ones who fell in the previous fight... yet it was the healers fault for the huntard wiping the raid... That kind of logic really pushed me away from healing..
I ended up putting my priest on the back burner, and re-rolled a prot pally... but essentially, retarded dps, lack of Decent healers.. pushed me away from tanking, i do recall tanking that naxramass raid, and the one after that... it just got really Tiresome... i enjoyed tanking ALOT... but when it gets down too the nitty gritty, it seemed people ALWAYS shit-talk the tanks for not being EXACTLY as the wowelitehomos builds or numbers... Its like, dude if you wanna take over with your Rogue and tank.. be my guest, but untill than stfu..
Alas the final straw in my healing/tanking days, was the DPS meters.... god i hated the folks who merely stared at their numbers, not even paying attention too the encounter... Dude i threw 6k dps that fight... yea but you died in about 3 seconds because you were to busy staring at your dps meter instead of moving out of the fire..
in before TL:DR
Your experience as a raid healer in WoW is one reason why I am so excited for the proposed system in GW2. By letting everybody have access to some support skills healing is a shared responsiblity. I have never been in the position of being blamed for wipes but I have seen it and it is ridiculous!
I usually play DPS/CC and I eschew the use of DPS meters usually because I like to see what is going on to see how I should be reacting but I know the type of person that you are referring to in your post.
I for one do not miss the days of playing a healer in EQ, sitting down looking at my spellbook to regain mana was not my cup of tea. I like being able to take part in combat in some way that is meaningful rather than waiting for the chance to heal! I never did raid in the game but leveling a cleric was not fun in my eyes.
Well Mes.. IMO a good healer in a good MMO will NEVER get into the fight or do dps directly.. Hell, even in WoW,, if you are in a raid and you start tossing out dps, expect a quick and early exit from the raid / zone.. Playing a healer takes a certain mentality, just like other roles.. I played both a holy pally and priest in WoW and I never looked at the mobs health.. 100% of my focus was on my party/raid members only.. I had the same mentality in EQ as well as a healer.. I instinctively paid more attention to my friends then the mobs..
The problem alot of gamers have is that they are primary "killer" mentality.. This means that killing is all that matters.. This is why games like WoW do not and probably will not ever have housing and other sandbox features.. Being a true healer is uncommon, same with tanking, and CC and pulling.. These roles required people with matching mentalities to be successful.. Since those roles are a minority, more and more devs are homoganizing the classes so you don't have to have to wait for a CC class, or a puller or whatnot.. WoW for example with Cat. dumbed it down even more.. Now there isn't a special need for boss tanking, or tank healer, etc etc.. Let everyone do everything.. Pretty soon everyone will be doing self heals while dpsing the boss, and off tanking.. LOL
Well Mes.. IMO a good healer in a good MMO will NEVER get into the fight or do dps directly.. Hell, even in WoW,, if you are in a raid and you start tossing out dps, expect a quick and early exit from the raid / zone.. Playing a healer takes a certain mentality, just like other roles.. I played both a holy pally and priest in WoW and I never looked at the mobs health.. 100% of my focus was on my party/raid members only.. I had the same mentality in EQ as well as a healer.. I instinctively paid more attention to my friends then the mobs..
The problem alot of gamers have is that they are primary "killer" mentality.. This means that killing is all that matters.. This is why games like WoW do not and probably will not ever have housing and other sandbox features.. Being a true healer is uncommon, same with tanking, and CC and pulling.. These roles required people with matching mentalities to be successful.. Since those roles are a minority, more and more devs are homoganizing the classes so you don't have to have to wait for a CC class, or a puller or whatnot.. WoW for example with Cat. dumbed it down even more.. Now there isn't a special need for boss tanking, or tank healer, etc etc.. Let everyone do everything.. Pretty soon everyone will be doing self heals while dpsing the boss, and off tanking.. LOL
Hello Rydeson,
I guess the important thing is that if you enjoy the way that healing works in its current incarnation in most AAA titles then I am glad for you. It is always nice finding the role specifically fits your needs/goals in a game. I guess that I don't like the idea of the Holy Trinity of current MMOs. I think that every class should be an optional role but that a mission should not be impossible without one, whether this is healer, tank, or damage dealers.
I respect that you like the way that healers function. I did enjoy the way CC functioned in classic games as well but I do appreciate innovation on the way in which things currently work. If it flops then there is always going back to what has worked!
i hate healing pve. Ive always played a healer/supports class but i really only pvp (when im not rp'ing, crafting, exploring, trading buying selling, etc) healing raids was fun for about .05 seconds.
disc priest pvp is the only reason i go back to wow.
Take WoW as another example. The Priest has both a damaging set of skills, and a healing set of skills. there are VERY FEW people who level with the healing set of skills ( I tried, but even I switched for a short time when i got bored).
I'm one of the "FEW" never did spec shadow or disc. She is Holy and remains only Holy. I am proud of that fact. It was like playing WoW on hardmode. ^_^
Healing can be a ball.I mean the old school eq pop era healing.But just remember,even with the best healers in clutch positions...crap still hit the fan.One wrong spell from a clutch healer can and did cause raid wipes.Fortunately the guild I was in back then was a Tier 1 raid guild(You know,the guys that cracked the raids before the 89065788 spoils hit the net on how to do what)Was kinda funny watching my message to the officer channel of...this just went bad,we need to camp a couple clerics. Get replied to with a "nah,we got this."45 seconds later...total raid wipe.
Mabey its good games dont need clutch healers anymore..I dont know.I do know I had a love hate relationship with the games..I hated the needed grind...but oh how I loved being in the spot where everything hinged on my preformance as a healer.
Most healers remeber the good moments...I tend to remember the bad...all the wipes...all the planning and stratagey meetings.Could bore you to tears and back.But when everything came together properly...it paid off in spades.
Take WoW as another example. The Priest has both a damaging set of skills, and a healing set of skills. there are VERY FEW people who level with the healing set of skills ( I tried, but even I switched for a short time when i got bored).
I'm one of the "FEW" never did spec shadow or disc. She is Holy and remains only Holy. I am proud of that fact. It was like playing WoW on hardmode. ^_^
I played my priest from 1 to 85 as Holy, and enjoyed it quite abit. However, after the talent tree revamp I switched over to disc and had quite a bit of fun with it. It's a really solid healing spec, and there's just something enjoyable about the shields/penance combo.
That's not to say I've abandoned holy, however. I have holy still set up as my primary spec, but I switch to disc for random pugs when I want a change of pace. You should give it a try.
short answer- Its better not to depend on anyone because he can simply screw you up because of HIS mistakes
Plus i am pretty sure most people in games are more satisfied when they do damage and kill something instead of trying to help teammates
Is this a troll? I hope so. And if it is, I fell for it. You don't want to depend on anyone else in a multiplayer game? Then you should never play one. This includes any FPS with team play. Depending on other players is the crux of what makes a multiplayer game fun and successful.
And you are pretty sure most people just want to kill stuff? Wrong. Totally, 100% wrong. If this were true the MMO genre would never have been successful initially or grown to the market dominance it is approaching. If you take this logic out to the real world, we have no doctors, social workers or teachers and the world falls apart.
As for the people that like MMOs the way they are now: imagine FPS games with all the violence taken out. Games amount to nothing more than touch football, say the goal is to tuck greeting cards into the pockets of your opponents. They take away team play, too. The industry prospers, will you still love the genre when Counterstrike was what initially fascinated you? I seriously doubt it.
I guess you can already tell, but my preference in MMOs is to play healer. I've tried every mode of play possible through every strata of quite a few games. Being supportive and healing, making everything go well for a group is why I love MMOs. Taking this away makes me not want to play. In fact I haven't played any MMO for over 3 months now, probably the longest dry spell I've had since the late 90s. Rift gives me some hope, but not a lot. Maybe the debuff/buff party utility combinations they seem to have promised will appeal to me.
The more threads I read here, the more I miss EQ. So, so many things it did right. The best SOE could possibly do with EQ Next would be to graphically overhaul EQ1, back it up pre-planes, and re-release it as EQ3. I'd pre-order it right now, sight unseen.
As to the issue as a whole, I'm torn. On one hand, in MMO's I like having a role. In FFXI I was the tank. I was THE TANK. And I will carry the Galka PLD banner forever; it's a part of my identity. But even advertising myself as a tank, I remember very vividly what happened after my static group fell apart: I spent a lot of time waiting in Jeuno for a WHM and a RDM. To me, FFXI represents the far end-point on the grouping-solo spectrum. One solo class--only accessible after grouping to level 30--and everyone else must group all the time; groups must include a tank (WAR, PLD, NIN as of when I played), a healer (WHM), and, at least in the mid-levels, a crack-dealer (RDM or BRD); at higher levels BRD & RDM combos eclipsed WHM's sometimes, if I remember correctly, but the holy trinity was hard-coded into the game. Missing a key component meant not leveling at all.
But when the group was going... those were the best of the old days. I remember it all fondly, and miss it.
A little further down the spectrum is EQ. EQ required grouping for most content, but Bards, Druids (like me), Necromancers, Shadowknights, and a few others at various points in their careers could solo very effectively. And as much as I loved quad-kiting the red bird-people out on my island in the middle of the ocean, some of my best memories were off-healing a group on the Dreadlands hills outside Karnor's with a cleric buddy. To me, this is the sweet spot of soloing vs. grouping. Some classes solo well, others don't, and more don't than do. The ones that solo well do so because of very specific mechanics wired into their playstyles (e.g., kiting or fear-kiting). This system is probably also the most difficult to balance for PVP too, but it could be done.
And then there's WOW. Everybody can solo all the time, because every class is three classes. This makes for a very easy leveling experience and good single-session pick-up play, but there's NO community cohesion at all. Guild cohesion, yes, but the guilds are isolated communities that have no real connection to outsiders unless the guild is filling holes for a raid or accepting applications. It also means that unsung heroes are even more unsung.
In both EQ and FFXI, I cared A LOT about my reputation, not just to my guild, but to my server as a whole, and also not just to my personality, but to my capability at my chosen role. I was arguably too strict on my linkshell members in FFXI when it came to maintaining the LS's rep, and went out of my way in both games to be courteous to people and give the benefit of the doubt wherever possible. In WOW, of course, those considerations are gone, especially in the advent of random grouping cross-servers. Hell, I made a very comfortable living in WOW for a while robbing guild vaults. Impact on my gaming experience? None whatsoever, other than the fact that I could suddenly afford epic mount use on any of my alts that were high enough.
One of the things class interdependency does is make you need people for something other than just having someone to gank. You couldn't group randomly like you can in WOW now: you had to actually find five or six other people on your server who would be willing to put up with you, and if you had a reputation for being an asshole, it stuck. In both games I distinctly remember there being people who were such jerks that I and others would not group with them under any circumstances, and other people who were just a blast to be around because of their personalities. This is something that's going away, and it's a symptom of the same problem. You might decide that my taking something from a guild vault, justified or otherwise, makes you not want anything to do with me in any game, but in WOW, that certainly won't stop me from advancing, so, right or wrong, I don't really have any incentive to consider the social consequences of things I do.
So next we have, at least big on the radar, GW2. And their stated position is anti-dedicated-healer, so much so as to eliminate the monk class altogether. Part of me rejoices at the breakdown of the trinity because it's a progression in the genre; on the other hand, though, I admit I cringe at the thought of not having a healer to depend on if I'm tanking (or God forbid, tanking 1/5th of the time due to aggro chaos).
But on the same token, I also mourn the loss of player-run teleporting as the best travel mechanic, the decline of AI-exploiting solo methods (like kiting), long distance nukes, and a host of other aspects whose demises have gone unchampioned by most of the MMO community at large. So maybe it's just a sign of the times.
Even so, I'd like to hope the happy medium is still out there and remembered by enough developers that class interdependency doesn't completely disappear. We may never see another game where having the healers cycling Complete Heal (which does just that) is necessary to keep the tank up in certain fights, but I'd settle for something close.
My friend came up with a good Druid build in EQ2 and people didn't like him because they could not understand how Druid could be one of the best damage dealers in the game. The usual whine goes: "You're not supposed to do damage!" If I'd played the game, I'd call anyone whining how the Druid is supposed to be a healer an idiot. My friend was many times the top damage dealer in a group.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I have to agree with UsualSuspect, Xhieron's post is one of the best ever. Every MMO designer should read his post. Basically it boils down to: your MMO will have as little community as you allow. Unless your intention is to create a game full of griefers, you have to force everyone to care about their reputation. So far the only proven way to do this is by stressing grouping. Very interesting!
My friend came up with a good Druid build in EQ2 and people didn't like him because they could not understand how Druid could be one of the best damage dealers in the game. The usual whine goes: "You're not supposed to do damage!" If I'd played the game, I'd call anyone whining how the Druid is supposed to be a healer an idiot. My friend was many times the top damage dealer in a group.
Might be because he majority wants to play dps champs. And they are standing around looking for a healer and dont want to give up the spot for another dps thats a non healing healer. Im not saying that you cant make be an awesome dps druid. But usually strangers want the cookie cutter classes.
Ive had great groups where we tanked with dodge, blade turn, damage absorbing shields and a bit of lifesteal and personal heals. Was great fun being all dps classes, but it was far from being as effective as a group of 1 or 2 tanks 1 or 2 healers + dps
The cool healers are slowly going away due to the attitude of the other players (primarily dps) who have the amazing ability to rationalize that it just wasn't their fault. Although I primarily run with friends, I do pug instances fairly often, and, if you don't have a thick skin, the attitude of many players is pretty appalling. I've played all the way to end-game raids on a tank, healer, and dps...having spent most of my time on a healer.
Occasionally, I run into a good group that understands the game and works well together. But usually in a pug there is at least one idiot that thinks dps means shoot anything in range before the tank gets aggro (or sufficient aggro) and whines that the healer didn't save him (according to him, however, every other healer could have saved him). Sometimes I've even run into tanks that think they should be able to handle any number of mobs...and gets confused why more damage to him means more aggro to me as healer when I do keep him up briefly before getting swarmed by the mobs. There are plenty of these stories in this thread...
The bottom line is that being a dedicated healer is a rather thankless job. Good healers are only rarely appreciated...and I think enough healers are sick of getting grief even when they are doing a good job (e.g. saved the tank and all but one of the dps after a bad pull, but that dps is livid at dying) that they just don't want to play. Same goes for good tanks and impatient dps. The game companies are trying to compensate for this problem by making everyone more self-sufficient.
We got spoiled - spoiled, I say ! - from Vanguard.
After that, I kinda lost the motivation to play games where healers are just healers and cant do anything else.
And healers vanishing from games doesnt improve that situation at all. I suck as damage dealer.
But I think that is part of the problem, early on they made it so healers needed the group to level but the dps has always been better suited for soloing, as long as they didn't go after something too big. They need to make it so that everyone else needs the healers or at least would be better off with a healer.
The real problem is that questing simply doesn't lend itself well to grouping. I am never on the same quest as my friends who are the same level. So if we do want to quest together I need to help you with your quests that I have done and you need to help me with my quests that you have done and then after a few hours we might be on the same quests. Groups are a lot easier to get in a grind game like lineage 2 where you simply need to be within 10 or 20 levels of your friend. Now they just need to make group grinding more effecient than soloing. (which is coming in the next patch)
Aion I think has done a fairly good job with clerics. First, there is only one class that is the main healer, cleric. Chanters are off healers. Clearly defined roles helps a lot. Second, they are hard to kill, clerics wear chain AND heal themselves. Tough nut to crack. Third they do really nice dps and solo fine. Not as good as ranged casters but still very good. Finally, they are needed in instances to heal so a pretty constant demand. I it is worth noting that they really don't have mana issues. They have several ways to regen mana and mana pots are cheap. Yet, even so, finding a cleric that wants to heal constantly can still be tricky. Fact is, healing is hard, thankless work that requires a lot of paying attention. And they may be willing to heal for their friends but not for pugs
My point is that Aion makes the Cleric an almost godly class and still finding real "healers" is a trick because healing can be, inherently, a drag. More games need to quit kicking healers in the teeth by making them the dependant ones. The first step is to get people into a healing class in the first place. Quit making that class suck. Second step is to make the healing more fun and less chore. Some are willing to make the sacrifice but the cost of it doesn't have to be so very steep.
The bottom line is that being a dedicated healer is a rather thankless job. Good healers are only rarely appreciated...and I think enough healers are sick of getting grief even when they are doing a good job
Exactly, and even if the healer isn't a very good healer, most of the time they made a sacrifice to become a healer in the first place. They chose helping others rather than being able to burn down the mobs themselves in record time. You might want to find someone better by the end of the instance but the least we can do is thank them for at least trying to do the job nobody else wanted.
We got spoiled - spoiled, I say ! - from Vanguard.
After that, I kinda lost the motivation to play games where healers are just healers and cant do anything else.
And healers vanishing from games doesnt improve that situation at all. I suck as damage dealer.
But I think that is part of the problem, early on they made it so healers needed the group to level but the dps has always been better suited for soloing, as long as they didn't go after something too big. They need to make it so that everyone else needs the healers or at least would be better off with a healer.
The real problem is that questing simply doesn't lend itself well to grouping. I am never on the same quest as my friends who are the same level. So if we do want to quest together I need to help you with your quests that I have done and you need to help me with my quests that you have done and then after a few hours we might be on the same quests. Groups are a lot easier to get in a grind game like lineage 2 where you simply need to be within 10 or 20 levels of your friend. Now they just need to make group grinding more effecient than soloing. (which is coming in the next patch)
Aion I think has done a fairly good job with clerics. First, there is only one class that is the main healer, cleric. Chanters are off healers. Clearly defined roles helps a lot. Second, they are hard to kill, clerics wear chain AND heal themselves. Tough nut to crack. Third they do really nice dps and solo fine. Not as good as ranged casters but still very good. Finally, they are needed in instances to heal so a pretty constant demand. I it is worth noting that they really don't have mana issues. They have several ways to regen mana and mana pots are cheap. Yet, even so, finding a cleric that wants to heal constantly can still be tricky. Fact is, healing is hard, thankless work that requires a lot of paying attention. And they may be willing to heal for their friends but not for pugs
My point is that Aion makes the Cleric an almost godly class and still finding real "healers" is a trick because healing can be, inherently, a drag. More games need to quit kicking healers in the teeth by making them the dependant ones. The first step is to get people into a healing class in the first place. Quit making that class suck. Second step is to make the healing more fun and less chore. Some are willing to make the sacrifice but the cost of it doesn't have to be so very steep.
I liked my Cleric in Aion, and would often offtank a mob for the tank. I loved my aggro, so much that when a sorc was perma CC'ing one mob and the tank was failing to taunt it, I would throw my root on it every cooldown just so that the Sorc wouldnt get turned into paste when the tank woke it up (or the glad, but that was a running gag anyway) I would stack Concentration and HP for PvP and PvE, I remember being able to heal through 6 Elyos beating on my shield until I got Aeiral lockdown and blown up, at least I bought time for the rest of the group to leg it. God, rifting was so much fun. PvE too, but mobs tend to hurt alot more in DP, so I tried to offtank less and healbitch alot more, running Alquima for that goddamn book before they fixed the drop rate was a good test though, with groups constantly cycling because some lucky bastard got his book on the 10th run when others were on their 50th was a sore point, but you got to play with a more varied crowd and group composition which made it a fresh change to your static group.
Cleric in Aion is truly a beast (note, my experience was in the first 3 months of the game YMMV) if it wasnt for the training dicks in Dredgion, and the massive zergs in Forts I probably would have continued, now my server is screwed due to transfers and the Legion I loved has gone away.
I enjoyed playing a healer in Guild Wars and remember having no problem getting groups and never recall being blamed for letting the team down in any way. This was before heroes were introduced in the game so I suppose even if I made a mistake I was still a lot better than taking a henchman healer.
While I did enjoy playing the healer class I won't miss it terribly when GW2 hits. I also made a Shaman healer in WoW and did some 5 mans with him but really didn't enjoy the pain of leveling as a healer since it was much quicker to level by questing which healers are terrible at.
We got spoiled - spoiled, I say ! - from Vanguard.
After that, I kinda lost the motivation to play games where healers are just healers and cant do anything else.
And healers vanishing from games doesnt improve that situation at all. I suck as damage dealer.
But I think that is part of the problem, early on they made it so healers needed the group to level but the dps has always been better suited for soloing, as long as they didn't go after something too big. They need to make it so that everyone else needs the healers or at least would be better off with a healer.
The real problem is that questing simply doesn't lend itself well to grouping. I am never on the same quest as my friends who are the same level. So if we do want to quest together I need to help you with your quests that I have done and you need to help me with my quests that you have done and then after a few hours we might be on the same quests. Groups are a lot easier to get in a grind game like lineage 2 where you simply need to be within 10 or 20 levels of your friend. Now they just need to make group grinding more effecient than soloing. (which is coming in the next patch)
Aion I think has done a fairly good job with clerics. First, there is only one class that is the main healer, cleric. Chanters are off healers. Clearly defined roles helps a lot. Second, they are hard to kill, clerics wear chain AND heal themselves. Tough nut to crack. Third they do really nice dps and solo fine. Not as good as ranged casters but still very good. Finally, they are needed in instances to heal so a pretty constant demand. I it is worth noting that they really don't have mana issues. They have several ways to regen mana and mana pots are cheap. Yet, even so, finding a cleric that wants to heal constantly can still be tricky. Fact is, healing is hard, thankless work that requires a lot of paying attention. And they may be willing to heal for their friends but not for pugs
My point is that Aion makes the Cleric an almost godly class and still finding real "healers" is a trick because healing can be, inherently, a drag. More games need to quit kicking healers in the teeth by making them the dependant ones. The first step is to get people into a healing class in the first place. Quit making that class suck. Second step is to make the healing more fun and less chore. Some are willing to make the sacrifice but the cost of it doesn't have to be so very steep.
I liked my Cleric in Aion, and would often offtank a mob for the tank. I loved my aggro, so much that when a sorc was perma CC'ing one mob and the tank was failing to taunt it, I would throw my root on it every cooldown just so that the Sorc wouldnt get turned into paste when the tank woke it up (or the glad, but that was a running gag anyway) I would stack Concentration and HP for PvP and PvE, I remember being able to heal through 6 Elyos beating on my shield until I got Aeiral lockdown and blown up, at least I bought time for the rest of the group to leg it. God, rifting was so much fun. PvE too, but mobs tend to hurt alot more in DP, so I tried to offtank less and healbitch alot more, running Alquima for that goddamn book before they fixed the drop rate was a good test though, with groups constantly cycling because some lucky bastard got his book on the 10th run when others were on their 50th was a sore point, but you got to play with a more varied crowd and group composition which made it a fresh change to your static group.
Cleric in Aion is truly a beast (note, my experience was in the first 3 months of the game YMMV) if it wasnt for the training dicks in Dredgion, and the massive zergs in Forts I probably would have continued, now my server is screwed due to transfers and the Legion I loved has gone away.
I sorely miss my Cleric in Aion as well. I had full miragents and sported a magic resist build before it was nerfed. It was the first healer class I had ever played and enjoyed it very much so. Being able to wear chain mail was probably the biggest attraction to me and the reason I picked it up. (since I did not want to be those cloth squishy types) I also remember in WAR, as I played a sword master, I'd duo with my buddy who was a Warrior priest, which is why I was inspired to try a healing class. We would duo and smash on stuff and had great survivability. The two of us would stand outside destro camp and pillage so many people coming out of camp. That healer class was OP as hell lol...
I'd still be playing Aion with my cleric if the community had not self destructed its own game. What a pity. This thread has a lot of truth to it though, because I started my mmo career off mainly as pure dps type and had a lot of frustration getting parties in ffxi as monk. Being a cleric in Aion was great because the second I logged in I would receive two or three /tells right off the bat to go do stuff. It felt good to be wanted and not taken for granted for once.
This brings me back to some funny points during my time in ffxi. We were usually 5/6 party looking for a healer, and we would always see RDM/BLM combo, so we would all be like: "hey man wanna exp? , do you have /WHM subjob?" Most of them would get all pissy and say: "no I'm a enfeeble, nuke damage type, no thanks." and that is understandable too. It was always a pain to get them to change to /WHM sub even though we knew they had it, but didn't feel like filling the healer role. I made a few RDM's friends out of this who were always happy to sub WHM, though they were few and far between in times of need when no WHM main was able to be found.
I don't mind the trinity setup in mmo's, and it actually makes me sad that so many hybrid build options in many games have strayed away from this. It will be interesting to see what GW2 does with monk. I'll probably play monk again, there is just something cool about the "monk" named type class. It got me started in my mmo career from playing EQ1 monk, to ffxi dps (though I'd sub whm on my monk and go powerlevel my brother and lower levels it was funny to see the reaction to the nooobs...what? we are going to be PL'd by a monk? yep that's right), to going to healer, and then still interested in the name of the class in GW, despite its healing role. I'm keeping my eyes peeled and looking forward to what the GW2 monk type healer / hybrid class will bring... ***crosses fingers*** It's funny how this stuff evovles.
Healers and CC together with the old thief that pick locks and disarms traps are classic D&D things.
When you play a game like D&D you sit down with your buddies and decide who will play which role so you get the perfect party. In many other games classes mattered little but in D&D you needed certain classes in all groups.
Problem is that it makes PUGing online pretty hard. Many games want it so you can take any 6 classes in any combo and let them run a dungeon together. And dedicated healers just wont work when you want the game to flow like that.
Other games still have dedicated healers but have killed the CC and thief.
I most classic games a group (of 5 or 6 players depending on the game) must have 1 tank and 1 dedicated healer at least. Then add a crowd control player as well and you must spend a long time time LFG in the OCC.
So it makes a lot of sense that some games like GW2 kill of the holy triad, it do have some advantages (like less predictable mobs) and some disadvantages (some people really like play tanks and healers) but I think generally that most people will like it after a whiles play.
But I wouldn't worry too much, there will always be use of support classes. Even in GW2 you can make a water Ele with heals, CC and buffs and while you are not the dedicated healer you will still be very popular in groups.
It wont be like it have been that people are so desperate that they actually pay you to join them however but I for one wont miss that.
Comments
Can't tell you about DDO because I didn't play it but just look at pen&paper or the NWN type of healers:
The cleric buffs before the fight, during the fight he might throw a heal but frequently he's a second rate damage dealer (both melee and casting) and after the fight he heals the injured party members.
NWN doesn't know hitpoint regen like most MMORPGs do, therefore the healer heals after a battle when potions are rare and plays a hybrid healer/caster/melee role during the fight, a role many people find more interesting than the pure combat-healer role.
And yes, I miss my DAoC cleric too.
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Your experience as a raid healer in WoW is one reason why I am so excited for the proposed system in GW2. By letting everybody have access to some support skills healing is a shared responsiblity. I have never been in the position of being blamed for wipes but I have seen it and it is ridiculous!
I usually play DPS/CC and I eschew the use of DPS meters usually because I like to see what is going on to see how I should be reacting but I know the type of person that you are referring to in your post.
I for one do not miss the days of playing a healer in EQ, sitting down looking at my spellbook to regain mana was not my cup of tea. I like being able to take part in combat in some way that is meaningful rather than waiting for the chance to heal! I never did raid in the game but leveling a cleric was not fun in my eyes.
Well Mes.. IMO a good healer in a good MMO will NEVER get into the fight or do dps directly.. Hell, even in WoW,, if you are in a raid and you start tossing out dps, expect a quick and early exit from the raid / zone.. Playing a healer takes a certain mentality, just like other roles.. I played both a holy pally and priest in WoW and I never looked at the mobs health.. 100% of my focus was on my party/raid members only.. I had the same mentality in EQ as well as a healer.. I instinctively paid more attention to my friends then the mobs..
The problem alot of gamers have is that they are primary "killer" mentality.. This means that killing is all that matters.. This is why games like WoW do not and probably will not ever have housing and other sandbox features.. Being a true healer is uncommon, same with tanking, and CC and pulling.. These roles required people with matching mentalities to be successful.. Since those roles are a minority, more and more devs are homoganizing the classes so you don't have to have to wait for a CC class, or a puller or whatnot.. WoW for example with Cat. dumbed it down even more.. Now there isn't a special need for boss tanking, or tank healer, etc etc.. Let everyone do everything.. Pretty soon everyone will be doing self heals while dpsing the boss, and off tanking.. LOL
Hello Rydeson,
I guess the important thing is that if you enjoy the way that healing works in its current incarnation in most AAA titles then I am glad for you. It is always nice finding the role specifically fits your needs/goals in a game. I guess that I don't like the idea of the Holy Trinity of current MMOs. I think that every class should be an optional role but that a mission should not be impossible without one, whether this is healer, tank, or damage dealers.
I respect that you like the way that healers function. I did enjoy the way CC functioned in classic games as well but I do appreciate innovation on the way in which things currently work. If it flops then there is always going back to what has worked!
Cheers and thanks for your thoughts though!
M
i hate healing pve. Ive always played a healer/supports class but i really only pvp (when im not rp'ing, crafting, exploring, trading buying selling, etc) healing raids was fun for about .05 seconds.
disc priest pvp is the only reason i go back to wow.
I'm one of the "FEW" never did spec shadow or disc. She is Holy and remains only Holy. I am proud of that fact. It was like playing WoW on hardmode. ^_^
Healing can be a ball.I mean the old school eq pop era healing.But just remember,even with the best healers in clutch positions...crap still hit the fan.One wrong spell from a clutch healer can and did cause raid wipes.Fortunately the guild I was in back then was a Tier 1 raid guild(You know,the guys that cracked the raids before the 89065788 spoils hit the net on how to do what)Was kinda funny watching my message to the officer channel of...this just went bad,we need to camp a couple clerics. Get replied to with a "nah,we got this."45 seconds later...total raid wipe.
Mabey its good games dont need clutch healers anymore..I dont know.I do know I had a love hate relationship with the games..I hated the needed grind...but oh how I loved being in the spot where everything hinged on my preformance as a healer.
Most healers remeber the good moments...I tend to remember the bad...all the wipes...all the planning and stratagey meetings.Could bore you to tears and back.But when everything came together properly...it paid off in spades.
I played my priest from 1 to 85 as Holy, and enjoyed it quite abit. However, after the talent tree revamp I switched over to disc and had quite a bit of fun with it. It's a really solid healing spec, and there's just something enjoyable about the shields/penance combo.
That's not to say I've abandoned holy, however. I have holy still set up as my primary spec, but I switch to disc for random pugs when I want a change of pace. You should give it a try.
Is this a troll? I hope so. And if it is, I fell for it. You don't want to depend on anyone else in a multiplayer game? Then you should never play one. This includes any FPS with team play. Depending on other players is the crux of what makes a multiplayer game fun and successful.
And you are pretty sure most people just want to kill stuff? Wrong. Totally, 100% wrong. If this were true the MMO genre would never have been successful initially or grown to the market dominance it is approaching. If you take this logic out to the real world, we have no doctors, social workers or teachers and the world falls apart.
As for the people that like MMOs the way they are now: imagine FPS games with all the violence taken out. Games amount to nothing more than touch football, say the goal is to tuck greeting cards into the pockets of your opponents. They take away team play, too. The industry prospers, will you still love the genre when Counterstrike was what initially fascinated you? I seriously doubt it.
I guess you can already tell, but my preference in MMOs is to play healer. I've tried every mode of play possible through every strata of quite a few games. Being supportive and healing, making everything go well for a group is why I love MMOs. Taking this away makes me not want to play. In fact I haven't played any MMO for over 3 months now, probably the longest dry spell I've had since the late 90s. Rift gives me some hope, but not a lot. Maybe the debuff/buff party utility combinations they seem to have promised will appeal to me.
Gah!
The more threads I read here, the more I miss EQ. So, so many things it did right. The best SOE could possibly do with EQ Next would be to graphically overhaul EQ1, back it up pre-planes, and re-release it as EQ3. I'd pre-order it right now, sight unseen.
As to the issue as a whole, I'm torn. On one hand, in MMO's I like having a role. In FFXI I was the tank. I was THE TANK. And I will carry the Galka PLD banner forever; it's a part of my identity. But even advertising myself as a tank, I remember very vividly what happened after my static group fell apart: I spent a lot of time waiting in Jeuno for a WHM and a RDM. To me, FFXI represents the far end-point on the grouping-solo spectrum. One solo class--only accessible after grouping to level 30--and everyone else must group all the time; groups must include a tank (WAR, PLD, NIN as of when I played), a healer (WHM), and, at least in the mid-levels, a crack-dealer (RDM or BRD); at higher levels BRD & RDM combos eclipsed WHM's sometimes, if I remember correctly, but the holy trinity was hard-coded into the game. Missing a key component meant not leveling at all.
But when the group was going... those were the best of the old days. I remember it all fondly, and miss it.
A little further down the spectrum is EQ. EQ required grouping for most content, but Bards, Druids (like me), Necromancers, Shadowknights, and a few others at various points in their careers could solo very effectively. And as much as I loved quad-kiting the red bird-people out on my island in the middle of the ocean, some of my best memories were off-healing a group on the Dreadlands hills outside Karnor's with a cleric buddy. To me, this is the sweet spot of soloing vs. grouping. Some classes solo well, others don't, and more don't than do. The ones that solo well do so because of very specific mechanics wired into their playstyles (e.g., kiting or fear-kiting). This system is probably also the most difficult to balance for PVP too, but it could be done.
And then there's WOW. Everybody can solo all the time, because every class is three classes. This makes for a very easy leveling experience and good single-session pick-up play, but there's NO community cohesion at all. Guild cohesion, yes, but the guilds are isolated communities that have no real connection to outsiders unless the guild is filling holes for a raid or accepting applications. It also means that unsung heroes are even more unsung.
In both EQ and FFXI, I cared A LOT about my reputation, not just to my guild, but to my server as a whole, and also not just to my personality, but to my capability at my chosen role. I was arguably too strict on my linkshell members in FFXI when it came to maintaining the LS's rep, and went out of my way in both games to be courteous to people and give the benefit of the doubt wherever possible. In WOW, of course, those considerations are gone, especially in the advent of random grouping cross-servers. Hell, I made a very comfortable living in WOW for a while robbing guild vaults. Impact on my gaming experience? None whatsoever, other than the fact that I could suddenly afford epic mount use on any of my alts that were high enough.
One of the things class interdependency does is make you need people for something other than just having someone to gank. You couldn't group randomly like you can in WOW now: you had to actually find five or six other people on your server who would be willing to put up with you, and if you had a reputation for being an asshole, it stuck. In both games I distinctly remember there being people who were such jerks that I and others would not group with them under any circumstances, and other people who were just a blast to be around because of their personalities. This is something that's going away, and it's a symptom of the same problem. You might decide that my taking something from a guild vault, justified or otherwise, makes you not want anything to do with me in any game, but in WOW, that certainly won't stop me from advancing, so, right or wrong, I don't really have any incentive to consider the social consequences of things I do.
So next we have, at least big on the radar, GW2. And their stated position is anti-dedicated-healer, so much so as to eliminate the monk class altogether. Part of me rejoices at the breakdown of the trinity because it's a progression in the genre; on the other hand, though, I admit I cringe at the thought of not having a healer to depend on if I'm tanking (or God forbid, tanking 1/5th of the time due to aggro chaos).
But on the same token, I also mourn the loss of player-run teleporting as the best travel mechanic, the decline of AI-exploiting solo methods (like kiting), long distance nukes, and a host of other aspects whose demises have gone unchampioned by most of the MMO community at large. So maybe it's just a sign of the times.
Even so, I'd like to hope the happy medium is still out there and remembered by enough developers that class interdependency doesn't completely disappear. We may never see another game where having the healers cycling Complete Heal (which does just that) is necessary to keep the tank up in certain fights, but I'd settle for something close.
Peace and safety.
^^^^^^^^^ Best Post Ever.
My friend came up with a good Druid build in EQ2 and people didn't like him because they could not understand how Druid could be one of the best damage dealers in the game. The usual whine goes: "You're not supposed to do damage!" If I'd played the game, I'd call anyone whining how the Druid is supposed to be a healer an idiot. My friend was many times the top damage dealer in a group.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I have to agree with UsualSuspect, Xhieron's post is one of the best ever. Every MMO designer should read his post. Basically it boils down to: your MMO will have as little community as you allow. Unless your intention is to create a game full of griefers, you have to force everyone to care about their reputation. So far the only proven way to do this is by stressing grouping. Very interesting!
Might be because he majority wants to play dps champs. And they are standing around looking for a healer and dont want to give up the spot for another dps thats a non healing healer. Im not saying that you cant make be an awesome dps druid. But usually strangers want the cookie cutter classes.
Ive had great groups where we tanked with dodge, blade turn, damage absorbing shields and a bit of lifesteal and personal heals. Was great fun being all dps classes, but it was far from being as effective as a group of 1 or 2 tanks 1 or 2 healers + dps
Wow a black refrence from magic the gathering. Nice to see other people who delv into games like mtg.
The cool healers are slowly going away due to the attitude of the other players (primarily dps) who have the amazing ability to rationalize that it just wasn't their fault. Although I primarily run with friends, I do pug instances fairly often, and, if you don't have a thick skin, the attitude of many players is pretty appalling. I've played all the way to end-game raids on a tank, healer, and dps...having spent most of my time on a healer.
Occasionally, I run into a good group that understands the game and works well together. But usually in a pug there is at least one idiot that thinks dps means shoot anything in range before the tank gets aggro (or sufficient aggro) and whines that the healer didn't save him (according to him, however, every other healer could have saved him). Sometimes I've even run into tanks that think they should be able to handle any number of mobs...and gets confused why more damage to him means more aggro to me as healer when I do keep him up briefly before getting swarmed by the mobs. There are plenty of these stories in this thread...
The bottom line is that being a dedicated healer is a rather thankless job. Good healers are only rarely appreciated...and I think enough healers are sick of getting grief even when they are doing a good job (e.g. saved the tank and all but one of the dps after a bad pull, but that dps is livid at dying) that they just don't want to play. Same goes for good tanks and impatient dps. The game companies are trying to compensate for this problem by making everyone more self-sufficient.
But I think that is part of the problem, early on they made it so healers needed the group to level but the dps has always been better suited for soloing, as long as they didn't go after something too big. They need to make it so that everyone else needs the healers or at least would be better off with a healer.
The real problem is that questing simply doesn't lend itself well to grouping. I am never on the same quest as my friends who are the same level. So if we do want to quest together I need to help you with your quests that I have done and you need to help me with my quests that you have done and then after a few hours we might be on the same quests. Groups are a lot easier to get in a grind game like lineage 2 where you simply need to be within 10 or 20 levels of your friend. Now they just need to make group grinding more effecient than soloing. (which is coming in the next patch)
Aion I think has done a fairly good job with clerics. First, there is only one class that is the main healer, cleric. Chanters are off healers. Clearly defined roles helps a lot. Second, they are hard to kill, clerics wear chain AND heal themselves. Tough nut to crack. Third they do really nice dps and solo fine. Not as good as ranged casters but still very good. Finally, they are needed in instances to heal so a pretty constant demand. I it is worth noting that they really don't have mana issues. They have several ways to regen mana and mana pots are cheap. Yet, even so, finding a cleric that wants to heal constantly can still be tricky. Fact is, healing is hard, thankless work that requires a lot of paying attention. And they may be willing to heal for their friends but not for pugs
My point is that Aion makes the Cleric an almost godly class and still finding real "healers" is a trick because healing can be, inherently, a drag. More games need to quit kicking healers in the teeth by making them the dependant ones. The first step is to get people into a healing class in the first place. Quit making that class suck. Second step is to make the healing more fun and less chore. Some are willing to make the sacrifice but the cost of it doesn't have to be so very steep.
All die, so die well.
Exactly, and even if the healer isn't a very good healer, most of the time they made a sacrifice to become a healer in the first place. They chose helping others rather than being able to burn down the mobs themselves in record time. You might want to find someone better by the end of the instance but the least we can do is thank them for at least trying to do the job nobody else wanted.
All die, so die well.
I liked my Cleric in Aion, and would often offtank a mob for the tank. I loved my aggro, so much that when a sorc was perma CC'ing one mob and the tank was failing to taunt it, I would throw my root on it every cooldown just so that the Sorc wouldnt get turned into paste when the tank woke it up (or the glad, but that was a running gag anyway) I would stack Concentration and HP for PvP and PvE, I remember being able to heal through 6 Elyos beating on my shield until I got Aeiral lockdown and blown up, at least I bought time for the rest of the group to leg it. God, rifting was so much fun. PvE too, but mobs tend to hurt alot more in DP, so I tried to offtank less and healbitch alot more, running Alquima for that goddamn book before they fixed the drop rate was a good test though, with groups constantly cycling because some lucky bastard got his book on the 10th run when others were on their 50th was a sore point, but you got to play with a more varied crowd and group composition which made it a fresh change to your static group.
Cleric in Aion is truly a beast (note, my experience was in the first 3 months of the game YMMV) if it wasnt for the training dicks in Dredgion, and the massive zergs in Forts I probably would have continued, now my server is screwed due to transfers and the Legion I loved has gone away.
I enjoyed playing a healer in Guild Wars and remember having no problem getting groups and never recall being blamed for letting the team down in any way. This was before heroes were introduced in the game so I suppose even if I made a mistake I was still a lot better than taking a henchman healer.
While I did enjoy playing the healer class I won't miss it terribly when GW2 hits. I also made a Shaman healer in WoW and did some 5 mans with him but really didn't enjoy the pain of leveling as a healer since it was much quicker to level by questing which healers are terrible at.
I sorely miss my Cleric in Aion as well. I had full miragents and sported a magic resist build before it was nerfed. It was the first healer class I had ever played and enjoyed it very much so. Being able to wear chain mail was probably the biggest attraction to me and the reason I picked it up. (since I did not want to be those cloth squishy types) I also remember in WAR, as I played a sword master, I'd duo with my buddy who was a Warrior priest, which is why I was inspired to try a healing class. We would duo and smash on stuff and had great survivability. The two of us would stand outside destro camp and pillage so many people coming out of camp. That healer class was OP as hell lol...
I'd still be playing Aion with my cleric if the community had not self destructed its own game. What a pity. This thread has a lot of truth to it though, because I started my mmo career off mainly as pure dps type and had a lot of frustration getting parties in ffxi as monk. Being a cleric in Aion was great because the second I logged in I would receive two or three /tells right off the bat to go do stuff. It felt good to be wanted and not taken for granted for once.
This brings me back to some funny points during my time in ffxi. We were usually 5/6 party looking for a healer, and we would always see RDM/BLM combo, so we would all be like: "hey man wanna exp? , do you have /WHM subjob?" Most of them would get all pissy and say: "no I'm a enfeeble, nuke damage type, no thanks." and that is understandable too. It was always a pain to get them to change to /WHM sub even though we knew they had it, but didn't feel like filling the healer role. I made a few RDM's friends out of this who were always happy to sub WHM, though they were few and far between in times of need when no WHM main was able to be found.
I don't mind the trinity setup in mmo's, and it actually makes me sad that so many hybrid build options in many games have strayed away from this. It will be interesting to see what GW2 does with monk. I'll probably play monk again, there is just something cool about the "monk" named type class. It got me started in my mmo career from playing EQ1 monk, to ffxi dps (though I'd sub whm on my monk and go powerlevel my brother and lower levels it was funny to see the reaction to the nooobs...what? we are going to be PL'd by a monk? yep that's right), to going to healer, and then still interested in the name of the class in GW, despite its healing role. I'm keeping my eyes peeled and looking forward to what the GW2 monk type healer / hybrid class will bring... ***crosses fingers*** It's funny how this stuff evovles.
Healers and CC together with the old thief that pick locks and disarms traps are classic D&D things.
When you play a game like D&D you sit down with your buddies and decide who will play which role so you get the perfect party. In many other games classes mattered little but in D&D you needed certain classes in all groups.
Problem is that it makes PUGing online pretty hard. Many games want it so you can take any 6 classes in any combo and let them run a dungeon together. And dedicated healers just wont work when you want the game to flow like that.
Other games still have dedicated healers but have killed the CC and thief.
I most classic games a group (of 5 or 6 players depending on the game) must have 1 tank and 1 dedicated healer at least. Then add a crowd control player as well and you must spend a long time time LFG in the OCC.
So it makes a lot of sense that some games like GW2 kill of the holy triad, it do have some advantages (like less predictable mobs) and some disadvantages (some people really like play tanks and healers) but I think generally that most people will like it after a whiles play.
But I wouldn't worry too much, there will always be use of support classes. Even in GW2 you can make a water Ele with heals, CC and buffs and while you are not the dedicated healer you will still be very popular in groups.
It wont be like it have been that people are so desperate that they actually pay you to join them however but I for one wont miss that.