Spot on Kyleran.. I agree with all your points, plus those added by some others.. I like to add in the word "accountability" to that equation.. When that is removed from the game, due to demands and simplification, you'll lose the integrity of the community.. More and more games do not build accountabilty into them.. Without it, you get chaos.. If you have a playground with no accountabilty with no consequences, expect the worst.. How sad we humans are..
Rydeson you miss the train dude, accountability was already tryed and resolve nothing, look at darkfall development accountability is one of the most important point in their game design, and look at the result one of the worst comunity ever, the most agressive and pompous ever in any mmo out there.
Maybe the people who started out in MMOs were coming from a culture of playing table top games like D&D. Maybe these people were used to actually sitting around a table sharing snacks and talking face to face with the people they played with. They then brought this culture into the MUDs they started playing. Gradually, they moved into MMOs as they developed.
But with the mass appeal of MMOs, there are probably very few current players who have ever played a table top RPG in today's communities. They have no concept of community in an MMO. This trend will continue as the newer generation of players replaces the old. They will bring in the ethos of Quake online rather than PnP D&D.
You guys just got old and the new generation has the age you had when you started.
I'm sure if there was a generation before yours playing at that time, they would have found you guys obnoxious.
It's just a fact of life, older generations allways think the younger generations lack <insert whatever thing you deem important here> and bitch about it.
Just look at art, music, sports, etc.
I'm sure there will be a day when I hear (music)sounds coming out of my sons room, I will think to myself: what is that god awfull noise he's listening to. He'll try to explain it to me, but I won't understand.
You guys just got old and the new generation has the age you had when you started.
I'm sure if there was a generation before yours playing at that time, they would have found you guys obnoxious.
It's just a fact of life, older generations allways think the younger generations lack and bitch about it.
Just look at art, music, sports, etc.
I'm sure there will be a day when I hear (music)sounds coming out of my sons room, I will think to myself: what is that god awfull noise he's listening to. He'll try to explain it to me, but I won't understand.
TLDR: it's the generation gap.
LOL
QFT
Edit: Except about the music - my son is listening to stuff I listened to in uni 20 years ago (Smashing Pumpkins) and I listened to Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd in the early 90s.
Rydeson you miss the train dude, accountability was already tryed and resolve nothing, look at darkfall development accountability is one of the most important point in their game design, and look at the result one of the worst comunity ever, the most agressive and pompous ever in any mmo out there.
Darkfall didn't fail because of accountabilty.. I think some call it "gankfall"? if I'm not mistaken.. Darkfall has many issues that killed it so to speak, then accountabilty.. That is like blaming GM's decline because they promote hybrids..
There is only one root cause for this -it became mainstream.
And the generation below the guys who started on MMO's are disrespectful asshats for the most part with no sense of common courtosey, manners or how to talk to other people with respect.
Heh, interesting topic. Didn't read the whole thread but here's my 2 cents:
- gameplay mechanics in favor of solo play instead of group/community building: as you said, older MMORPG's like UO and EQ had all kinds of gameplay mechanics that helped build more of a group and community oriented mindset. There was far more working together and doing stuff with/for other people because the games forced/steered you to towards playing MMORPG's more of a teamsport right from the start.
- community demographics has changed: say of it what you like, but taken as a whole the early adopters of the MMORPG genre were a different mix of people than the ones who came later to the MMO genre, with WoW and past that time. It has resulted in a different mix of MMO gamer community with different expectations and approach of MMORPG's as a genre. A lot of MMO gamers now are used to an instant-gratification model or have grown accustomed to it.
- 'first love' era has ended: let's face it, that first love, that first MMORPG you really enjoyed will always be special to most of the MMO gamers. MMO gamers as a group in the early years of MMORPG's can best be compared with children and teens who look at the world with still a lot of wonder, awe and openminded enthusiasm about the possibilities in life. That same sense of wonder and awe and openminded acceptance did a lot of MMO gamers have when they started playing their first MMORPG.
While after years of having played MMORPG's, the community of MMO gamers can more be compared with 30 to 40+ years olds, even grumpy old men: most have become seasoned and jaded with MMORPG's, even desillusioned in their MMO life, thinking that 'in days past everything was better'.
The general result of us not being 'MMO kids and teens' anymore but having become of 'middle age' in our MMO life, also means that a lot of MMO gamers don't have that openminded view, sense of wonder and easy acceptance and tolerance anymore that they had when they took their first steps into MMORPG's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I see this is stil going so ill join...The major drawback to EVERY mmo these days and even the olden mmos is that these MMORPGs have so little of actual roleplaying. Im not talking about talking like a tard of wenches and noble quests. Games are just that, games. They are not virtual worlds. The player feels nothing for the world, and thinks nothing of his place in it. There is no consequence and I do not mean consequence in game terms (banning or something). Even with some mmos trying to give the illusion of an evolving world, in reality its very static. You can go from zero to what? A high level zero, you never ascend the ranks so to speak to a place where for example you craft the world or lore along with the devs.
There is little choices in what people do really in an mmo, or rpgs really. Even the best games with dialog trees and multiple paths are played like a simple game. Almost no one chooses the options they feel are right, they choose the option to get the ending they want. Its not natural, its not immersive.
I always thought the way to fix such issues is to have small servers with a limited number of people so that people have renown. If someone is good theyre famous, if someone is an asshole no one wants to play with him and so on. This is unfourtunately impossible to do, becouse any rpg of resepctable size is already too large for lets say a 100 people.
In the end games are just games and dont expect this will ever change.
Rzed you should try to get involved in some pvp mmo.
But then again you really have to want it, because pvp in mmo is so badly and poorly set, it repulse majority of players, even pvpers lol.
But ye pvp certainly can give you that sense of acheivement and living world you are missing. And i think this is the main reason pvp is still very alive in the mmo world, beyond the "i like to kill you before you kill me" stuff. Pvp give a sense of living world no pve will ever be able to deliver.
Once the US devs will understand that, maybe their games will evolve, but only Koreans i think got this right. Us are still too much in this old Trammel vs Felucca affair, i wonder when they will be able to outpass this? lol
Rzed you should try to get involved in some pvp mmo.
But then again you really have to want it, because pvp in mmo is so badly and poorly set, it repulse majority of players, even pvpers lol.
But ye pvp certainly can give you that sense of acheivement and living world you are missing. And i think this is the main reason pvp is still very alive in the mmo world, beyond the "i like to kill you before you kill me" stuff. Pvp give a sense of living world no pve will ever be able to deliver.
Once the US devs will understand that, maybe their games will evolve, but only Koreans i think got this right. Us are still too much in this old Trammel vs Felucca affair, i wonder when they will be able to outpass this? lol
I hope before the Asian totally eat them up
Thats such lie , i am a roleplayer and trust me out of boredom i got people hooked around 3 to 6 in the mornings cause the kids suppose to be in bed at that time
Sorry it only take some extra ordinairy person to get people hooked in a mmo .
And even in PVE pfttt got a whole guild to transfer server and meeting in real life . all over across europe.
Rzed you should try to get involved in some pvp mmo.
But then again you really have to want it, because pvp in mmo is so badly and poorly set, it repulse majority of players, even pvpers lol.
But ye pvp certainly can give you that sense of acheivement and living world you are missing. And i think this is the main reason pvp is still very alive in the mmo world, beyond the "i like to kill you before you kill me" stuff. Pvp give a sense of living world no pve will ever be able to deliver.
Once the US devs will understand that, maybe their games will evolve, but only Koreans i think got this right. Us are still too much in this old Trammel vs Felucca affair, i wonder when they will be able to outpass this? lol
I hope before the Asian totally eat them up
PvP are just about the least immersive type of mmo in existence. For the simple reason that the lore takes a back seat almost completely and more importantly people act nothing like they would normally in a lets say realistic medieval setting. Ganking is everwhere in pvp games, and overall assholery knows no limit. It completely takes me out of the game.
Yes i understand what you said, thats why it was just a suggestion.
But contrary to what the other dude is thinking, an rp pvp community still exist in some mmo, its pretty weak for sure, but it exist. Anyway i don't think its the point of the post here.
I don't think communiies are the product of mechanics, rather a sense of cohesion.
Back when if you were playing any MMO you were part of a small exclusive group, you all shared an interest in common that seperates you from the rest of society, so you were more apt to see this community as more meaningful.
Now MMOs are big and have lots of players, playing a MMO is like playing any video game or watching a movie, sure you do it, but so does everybody else, MMO players are not a small group anymore and simply playing the same game as another person isn't enough connection to see the community as meaningful. That is why the more meaningful communities are found in guilds rather than the game as a whole.
I think just the opposite. It IS a product of the mechanics, which open the game up to a larger audience.
The general public that doesn't know much about roleplay (and I mean face to face table top roleplay), and grew up with an Xbox, wants a WoW type instant gratification game, solo friendly, with no obstacles, no co-op play required, except for the occaisional group quest, which they can quickly muddle through if they HAVE to, and then run back to the solo game.
that crowd will not play an EQ or DAoC type of game. They don't have the patience for it, and they don't enjoy the cooperative nature of it. I'm not saying they aren't social, they will chat all day, they just dont' want to take the time and effort to group and coordinate with other players to achieve objectives on a regular basis.
There is a much smaller population of gamers that want a cooperative game, where you're required to get along, and help one another to progress and achieve objectives. The game mechanics REQUIRE that you be able to work well with others, and that you have some patience.
So those two different games create two different gaming populations.
In EQ people would help you just because the knew that their help meant something, and it was vital to enjoying the game to help one another. Someone would drop what they were doing, and help you go get your corpse. And you were grateful, and would do the same for someone else.
You think the average player in WoW is going to stop their solo quest grind just to help you do something? Absolutely not.
Rzed you should try to get involved in some pvp mmo.
But then again you really have to want it, because pvp in mmo is so badly and poorly set, it repulse majority of players, even pvpers lol.
But ye pvp certainly can give you that sense of acheivement and living world you are missing. And i think this is the main reason pvp is still very alive in the mmo world, beyond the "i like to kill you before you kill me" stuff. Pvp give a sense of living world no pve will ever be able to deliver.
Once the US devs will understand that, maybe their games will evolve, but only Koreans i think got this right. Us are still too much in this old Trammel vs Felucca affair, i wonder when they will be able to outpass this? lol
I hope before the Asian totally eat them up
PvP are just about the least immersive type of mmo in existence. For the simple reason that the lore takes a back seat almost completely and more importantly people act nothing like they would normally in a lets say realistic medieval setting. Ganking is everwhere in pvp games, and overall assholery knows no limit. It completely takes me out of the game.
It's not possible for MMORPG PvP to mimic situations in real life.
Players always have these ideas of playing good guys and bad guys, and protecting the weak, and being an outlaw, playing a bounty hunter, establishing a reputation and social ties, etc.
But in reality that stuff doesnt' really work when you can just respawn to gank again, or just reroll a character, grind it up, and gank again.
In real life, it's death, or life in prison. Not really the same as a 2 minute run back to the battle field, or having to reroll a new toon on a different server.
And you don't want a game to have severe penalties anyway, because it would suck and nobody would PvP.
@Hanshotfirst....why do you still enjoy L4D or other FPS then? I also play CoD/L4D2/BFBC2, etc. I play with a group of friends. We play many different FPS's as a group. Everyone of them hate, literally, can't stand MMO's. I am the lone exception. They would rather go antiqueing or listen to an insurance seminar for 6 hours than bother downloading/character creation/grinding mobs/skills in WoW or any other MMO.
However, it still is a group/social experience. We all play together, when we can... across all these different games. It's not the game, it's the GROUP. The type of game or setting doesn't matter. If they wanted to play Mount and Blade: Warband or some other FPS, so be it. We share voice comms, we have a website, hell we are like a frat, but most of us are married or have a mortgage to pay.
Speaking of L4D and some of the otherFPS's...have you ever had an asshat in your group? Ever had someone TK you in CoD? Throw a molotov in an enclosed area in L4D, either b/c he's an idiot or deliberately trying to ruin your game experience? What happens? You either all turn on him and kill him or everyone leaves/rage quits. Now armed with this knowledge..what do you think would happen to said asshat in EvE or Darkfall? It wouldn't be pretty, because there are consequences to acting like a douchebag.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
Honestly I don't think it is any one mechanic at all or even all them combined that makes good communities. Good communites are formed by and large by like-minded people.
Back in the day the people that played games were geeks, nerds, early adopters and probably a few other areas. Today everyone plays games from all walks of life. The more like-minded your community is the easier it is to get everyone to get along and be happy. The more diverse your community the more likely it is to devolve into fights and epeen fests.
So what happend to games? Nothng happened to the games themeselves, but gaming in general become popular which means more people from other walks of life that disagreement with our previous assessment of games.
Venge Sunsoar
Well said.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
in case * wow * my opinion commonity started going down when blizzard make everyhting faster, random dungeon tool, instances dont require anymore social looking for this and that at start and instances are over so fast and when everybody have been grinding same instances million times already they know how to go thro them eyes closed so theres no need to type anyhting other than maybe hi, and even saying the hi to everyone disappeared mostly already.
so if you invent everyhting be there in a plate take it enjoy byebye without big effort this is the result.
Well, its been a great thread, lots of good input, some folks disagree of course, or think good gaming communities are a thing of the past but I still can't help wonder, what could be done today to improve the community w/o pissing off the broader player base.
Obviously 10 minute boat rides or 3 minutes to get your health back between fights are off the table. And while many abhor forced grouping, I think there's still ways to making grouping easier and provide rewards to players for assisting others.
How about some sort of achievement system where every time someone assists someone in a quest they've already completed they get some recognition or reward for it. (though care would have to be taken to not encourage too much powerleveling when not appropriate)
How about a little slowdown in the pacing of the fights, do they really have to happen non stop? I think this mentality gets in place because players are racing towards an end game goal, where leveling up quickly is the only consideration, so perhaps some alternate mechanics (other stuff to do) have to be employed to help them enjoy the journey more.
I'd have to put some more thought into this, I'm not willing to surrender the MMO community to the asshats of the world, and I think with a little creativity, MMO's can encourage better behavior from most folks when playing games.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How about some sort of achievement system where every time someone assists someone in a quest they've already completed they get some recognition or reward for it. (though care would have to be taken to not encourage too much powerleveling when not appropriate)
How about a little slowdown in the pacing of the fights, do they really have to happen non stop? I think this mentality gets in place because players are racing towards an end game goal, where leveling up quickly is the only consideration, so perhaps some alternate mechanics (other stuff to do) have to be employed to help them enjoy the journey more.
I'd have to put some more thought into this, I'm not willing to surrender the MMO community to the asshats of the world, and I think with a little creativity, MMO's can encourage better behavior from most folks when playing games.
LotRO has a reward system for redoing quests, but only for the instanced ones. I'd like to see more of that.
WoW is insane on pacing, now. I just started playing again after 4 years and croiky, you can recover completely from being nearly dead in less than 20 seconds(no exaggeration!)! Could be that my toon was just 15th level, but still...
Some form of advancement for going to social areas and participating, I think would be a good start. It seemed like Entertainers in SWG were a start of that and had it evolved, it could've been really cool. I still like LotRO's music system as well. Annoying thing, both lacked the simplest thing... a tip jar!
People WILL take a break from grinding quests to do fun, potentially social things. Bilbo's basement for the LotRO Fall festival was a huge hit. If they were to put some prize or reputation content into more of the social areas, we might see more "stop and smell the roses" communities than we do, now.
Personally I attribute things to a backlash against the 'forced community' aspects of the 'old school' MMOs. People got tired of following the 'community rules' that to many did not make sence and only existed due to tedious, BS game mechanics. When a game like WoW showed people that they could play the game the way they wanted and not the way the 'community' felt was the correct way to play, that monolithic 'community' quickly fragmented.
The downside to people having more freedom in how they socialize is an increase in anarchy. If you want to be social in the game you have to be proactive and work at it rather than having people socialize because of boredom or peer pressure.
It's a combination of MMOs becoming more solo-centric and instant gratification driven, coupled with the type of gamer such design choices attracts.
When players don't need to rely on nor interact beyond an extremely superficial level with other players, the result is a lot of players treating each other with very little to no respect. It's very much the same way in a real world society, in that when people are left to themselves, they tend to developer very selfish and inconsiderate behavior, as opposed to when they have to regularily intteract and cooperate with others... because if they don't they obviously don't get very far in life.
You see it all the time, game "XXX" has the crappiest gaming community out there. No, some folks say, all gaming communities suck no matter what game you're talking about.
Maybe its just nostalgia, or I'm looking through rose colored glasses, but I don't recall it always being this way folks. My first few MMO's, Lineage 1, DAOC, Lineage 2 and even Shadowbane all had much better communities (from a random encounter perspective) than those of more recent games.
So why is that?: I've read some theories, some of which I heartily agree with. I'll kick it off with a few prime suspects but I'll be interested to hear what others have to say.
1) Lack of forced downtime. The older games used to make us wait to regenerate our health, mana or whatever, it wasn't constant fight, fight, fight that it seems to be in every game today. This was a good thing IMO, it gave us time to chat with our groupmates, guildmates, or even random strangers in global chat. Nowdays it seems everyone is either soloing or even grouping through the (usully quest based) content to the point there's no time for player interaction.
2) Quick travel options - yes, I know they are seen as a benefit, but in their ultimate form, being able to queue for dungeons without ever traveling to them and looking for a group, while ideal for those who want to just get in and get busy, are some of the biggest detriments to building a strong gaming community. Truely a case of the negatives outweighing the positives, at least if the goal is to build a better community.
3) Game mechanics that discourage grouping, specifically quest based mechanics. Most games don't provide enough reward for re-running a quest with someone,(if its even possible) therefore people complete most quests solo. How many times did you try to group up only to be told, "no thanks, I've already completed that one". Say what you will about the old camp grinding games, it rarely happened, people always wanted some competent and friendly folks to join up, help with the kills and to pass the time.
OK, there's 3 off the top of my head, let's hear what others think.
It's nostalgia. A more likely culprit is simply the fact that MMOs have opened up to a much wider sample of population than before, so there are less like-minded people.
The games I've played with fantastic communities have had these features to no detriment. AO, LoTRO and EVE come to mind as best community games and they all had fast travel, quests and a complete lack of forced downtime.
So I think you're mis-matching your root causes. Older games had better comminuties. This is true. Older games tended to have more downtime and less fast travel. This is also true. However, one thing isn't necessarily the cause of the other. Anarchy Online is a first-generation game that had all kinds of fast-travel and one of the best communities. You can take the opposite example - a modern game like Vanguard, that had no fast travel, but still had an awful community (at least on launch, i hear it's better now, but they've also added fast travel - i'm sure it's unrelated tho).
Older games also had less experienced and less knowledgeable players, so it required them to stick together more or rely on each other more. Today, even if i roll a character in one of those old games, I can get all the infoz i'll ever need online without any help, also chances are, because i'm a 10 year MMO veteran, i know 90% of game mechanics without ever playing it. This makes me less likely to have to rely on anyone in another game. Also, today there are hundreds of choices of MMOs, one doesn't worry about alienating the world they're in. They can always quit or leave the server or whatever. In the older games, when there was only 1 or 2 other games and only 1 server, people acted less like asshats.
Anyhow, I don't think it has anything to do with quests or fast travel or lack of forced downtime or instancing. Mostly because the game that had the single best community i've ever been part of had all those things 10 years ago and it wasn't an issue.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
You see it all the time, game "XXX" has the crappiest gaming community out there. No, some folks say, all gaming communities suck no matter what game you're talking about.
Maybe its just nostalgia, or I'm looking through rose colored glasses, but I don't recall it always being this way folks. My first few MMO's, Lineage 1, DAOC, Lineage 2 and even Shadowbane all had much better communities (from a random encounter perspective) than those of more recent games.
So why is that?: I've read some theories, some of which I heartily agree with. I'll kick it off with a few prime suspects but I'll be interested to hear what others have to say.
1) Lack of forced downtime. The older games used to make us wait to regenerate our health, mana or whatever, it wasn't constant fight, fight, fight that it seems to be in every game today. This was a good thing IMO, it gave us time to chat with our groupmates, guildmates, or even random strangers in global chat. Nowdays it seems everyone is either soloing or even grouping through the (usully quest based) content to the point there's no time for player interaction.
Not true. Ragnarok Online was nothing but downtime. We were sitting to regen mana, especially as a Priest, and there was teaming by the ton. In fact, in the earlier days at least, it was the only way to level. There still wasn't a great deal of socializing unless you were a Priest or a Merchant class (Blacksmith/Alchemist) and even then it was only if someone needed to make something/teleport/ress them.
2) Quick travel options - yes, I know they are seen as a benefit, but in their ultimate form, being able to queue for dungeons without ever traveling to them and looking for a group, while ideal for those who want to just get in and get busy, are some of the biggest detriments to building a strong gaming community. Truely a case of the negatives outweighing the positives, at least if the goal is to build a better community.
Having to spend 20 minutes walking somewhere never made me want to chat with people more. It made me pissy and want to stab someone. I avoided dungeons and instances until those quick travel options were available. There are plenty of games where people still sit around for HOURS shouting "LFG FOR xxx DUNGEON!" because they can't get the right people they need. Do they socialize while they wait? No. They bitch about there not being enough healers in the game and play their DS/watch TV while they wait.
3) Game mechanics that discourage grouping, specifically quest based mechanics. Most games don't provide enough reward for re-running a quest with someone,(if its even possible) therefore people complete most quests solo. How many times did you try to group up only to be told, "no thanks, I've already completed that one". Say what you will about the old camp grinding games, it rarely happened, people always wanted some competent and friendly folks to join up, help with the kills and to pass the time.
Yes and no. I think games should make an effort to make teaming more beneficial, but not necessary. I should be able to solo, but I should get more from my efforts if there's a friend along. Absolutely. But I don't think it should come in the form of incentive to repeat quests. That's pretty tedious, and a step backward I think. The incentive should not come from the quest, it should come from the person you are aiding. There are various games with master/pupil systems that are beneficial to creating this incentive, though you do get lazy masters who don't do much. I however, always enjoyed running around with my noobie pupils and helping them out with things, especially when you get to the point that you don't need any of the loot and you can just 'pass' on all of it. Makes the other person's day. Great feeling.
OK, there's 3 off the top of my head, let's hear what others think.
You're right that there should be more of a community atmosphere in games, but I don't think your proposed changes would do much but take a game backwards. Gaming has gotten popular because dated mechanics like these were finally left in the dust where they belong. I think we should be forcing developers to come up with new ideas, not fall back on flawed ones.
EDIT: By the way! Guild Wars is introducing an entire island soon, which is going to become the central hub for pretty much the entire game. You'll be accessing most areas of the game from this island, making it an easy lobby area for people to hang out, socialize, and find a team. All the other areas will still exist of course, but this will create that community atmosphere for people to congregate. I really like this idea, and it's exactly what I mean about thinking of new ways to do things rather than resorting to old ways.
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Comments
Spot on Kyleran.. I agree with all your points, plus those added by some others.. I like to add in the word "accountability" to that equation.. When that is removed from the game, due to demands and simplification, you'll lose the integrity of the community.. More and more games do not build accountabilty into them.. Without it, you get chaos.. If you have a playground with no accountabilty with no consequences, expect the worst.. How sad we humans are..
Rydeson you miss the train dude, accountability was already tryed and resolve nothing, look at darkfall development accountability is one of the most important point in their game design, and look at the result one of the worst comunity ever, the most agressive and pompous ever in any mmo out there.
Maybe the people who started out in MMOs were coming from a culture of playing table top games like D&D. Maybe these people were used to actually sitting around a table sharing snacks and talking face to face with the people they played with. They then brought this culture into the MUDs they started playing. Gradually, they moved into MMOs as they developed.
But with the mass appeal of MMOs, there are probably very few current players who have ever played a table top RPG in today's communities. They have no concept of community in an MMO. This trend will continue as the newer generation of players replaces the old. They will bring in the ethos of Quake online rather than PnP D&D.
Is there any way to go back?
Is there another way to go forward?
You guys just got old and the new generation has the age you had when you started.
I'm sure if there was a generation before yours playing at that time, they would have found you guys obnoxious.
It's just a fact of life, older generations allways think the younger generations lack <insert whatever thing you deem important here> and bitch about it.
Just look at art, music, sports, etc.
I'm sure there will be a day when I hear (music)sounds coming out of my sons room, I will think to myself: what is that god awfull noise he's listening to. He'll try to explain it to me, but I won't understand.
TLDR: it's the generation gap.
LOL
QFT
Edit: Except about the music - my son is listening to stuff I listened to in uni 20 years ago (Smashing Pumpkins) and I listened to Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd in the early 90s.
There is only one root cause for this -it became mainstream.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
Darkfall didn't fail because of accountabilty.. I think some call it "gankfall"? if I'm not mistaken.. Darkfall has many issues that killed it so to speak, then accountabilty.. That is like blaming GM's decline because they promote hybrids..
And the generation below the guys who started on MMO's are disrespectful asshats for the most part with no sense of common courtosey, manners or how to talk to other people with respect.
Heh, interesting topic. Didn't read the whole thread but here's my 2 cents:
- gameplay mechanics in favor of solo play instead of group/community building: as you said, older MMORPG's like UO and EQ had all kinds of gameplay mechanics that helped build more of a group and community oriented mindset. There was far more working together and doing stuff with/for other people because the games forced/steered you to towards playing MMORPG's more of a teamsport right from the start.
- community demographics has changed: say of it what you like, but taken as a whole the early adopters of the MMORPG genre were a different mix of people than the ones who came later to the MMO genre, with WoW and past that time. It has resulted in a different mix of MMO gamer community with different expectations and approach of MMORPG's as a genre. A lot of MMO gamers now are used to an instant-gratification model or have grown accustomed to it.
- 'first love' era has ended: let's face it, that first love, that first MMORPG you really enjoyed will always be special to most of the MMO gamers. MMO gamers as a group in the early years of MMORPG's can best be compared with children and teens who look at the world with still a lot of wonder, awe and openminded enthusiasm about the possibilities in life. That same sense of wonder and awe and openminded acceptance did a lot of MMO gamers have when they started playing their first MMORPG.
While after years of having played MMORPG's, the community of MMO gamers can more be compared with 30 to 40+ years olds, even grumpy old men: most have become seasoned and jaded with MMORPG's, even desillusioned in their MMO life, thinking that 'in days past everything was better'.
The general result of us not being 'MMO kids and teens' anymore but having become of 'middle age' in our MMO life, also means that a lot of MMO gamers don't have that openminded view, sense of wonder and easy acceptance and tolerance anymore that they had when they took their first steps into MMORPG's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I see this is stil going so ill join...The major drawback to EVERY mmo these days and even the olden mmos is that these MMORPGs have so little of actual roleplaying. Im not talking about talking like a tard of wenches and noble quests. Games are just that, games. They are not virtual worlds. The player feels nothing for the world, and thinks nothing of his place in it. There is no consequence and I do not mean consequence in game terms (banning or something). Even with some mmos trying to give the illusion of an evolving world, in reality its very static. You can go from zero to what? A high level zero, you never ascend the ranks so to speak to a place where for example you craft the world or lore along with the devs.
There is little choices in what people do really in an mmo, or rpgs really. Even the best games with dialog trees and multiple paths are played like a simple game. Almost no one chooses the options they feel are right, they choose the option to get the ending they want. Its not natural, its not immersive.
I always thought the way to fix such issues is to have small servers with a limited number of people so that people have renown. If someone is good theyre famous, if someone is an asshole no one wants to play with him and so on. This is unfourtunately impossible to do, becouse any rpg of resepctable size is already too large for lets say a 100 people.
In the end games are just games and dont expect this will ever change.
Rzed you should try to get involved in some pvp mmo.
But then again you really have to want it, because pvp in mmo is so badly and poorly set, it repulse majority of players, even pvpers lol.
But ye pvp certainly can give you that sense of acheivement and living world you are missing. And i think this is the main reason pvp is still very alive in the mmo world, beyond the "i like to kill you before you kill me" stuff. Pvp give a sense of living world no pve will ever be able to deliver.
Once the US devs will understand that, maybe their games will evolve, but only Koreans i think got this right. Us are still too much in this old Trammel vs Felucca affair, i wonder when they will be able to outpass this? lol
I hope before the Asian totally eat them up
Thats such lie , i am a roleplayer and trust me out of boredom i got people hooked around 3 to 6 in the mornings cause the kids suppose to be in bed at that time
Sorry it only take some extra ordinairy person to get people hooked in a mmo .
And even in PVE pfttt got a whole guild to transfer server and meeting in real life . all over across europe.
Beat that PVP crowd :P .
PvP are just about the least immersive type of mmo in existence. For the simple reason that the lore takes a back seat almost completely and more importantly people act nothing like they would normally in a lets say realistic medieval setting. Ganking is everwhere in pvp games, and overall assholery knows no limit. It completely takes me out of the game.
Yes i understand what you said, thats why it was just a suggestion.
But contrary to what the other dude is thinking, an rp pvp community still exist in some mmo, its pretty weak for sure, but it exist. Anyway i don't think its the point of the post here.
I think just the opposite. It IS a product of the mechanics, which open the game up to a larger audience.
The general public that doesn't know much about roleplay (and I mean face to face table top roleplay), and grew up with an Xbox, wants a WoW type instant gratification game, solo friendly, with no obstacles, no co-op play required, except for the occaisional group quest, which they can quickly muddle through if they HAVE to, and then run back to the solo game.
that crowd will not play an EQ or DAoC type of game. They don't have the patience for it, and they don't enjoy the cooperative nature of it. I'm not saying they aren't social, they will chat all day, they just dont' want to take the time and effort to group and coordinate with other players to achieve objectives on a regular basis.
There is a much smaller population of gamers that want a cooperative game, where you're required to get along, and help one another to progress and achieve objectives. The game mechanics REQUIRE that you be able to work well with others, and that you have some patience.
So those two different games create two different gaming populations.
In EQ people would help you just because the knew that their help meant something, and it was vital to enjoying the game to help one another. Someone would drop what they were doing, and help you go get your corpse. And you were grateful, and would do the same for someone else.
You think the average player in WoW is going to stop their solo quest grind just to help you do something? Absolutely not.
It's not possible for MMORPG PvP to mimic situations in real life.
Players always have these ideas of playing good guys and bad guys, and protecting the weak, and being an outlaw, playing a bounty hunter, establishing a reputation and social ties, etc.
But in reality that stuff doesnt' really work when you can just respawn to gank again, or just reroll a character, grind it up, and gank again.
In real life, it's death, or life in prison. Not really the same as a 2 minute run back to the battle field, or having to reroll a new toon on a different server.
And you don't want a game to have severe penalties anyway, because it would suck and nobody would PvP.
@Hanshotfirst....why do you still enjoy L4D or other FPS then? I also play CoD/L4D2/BFBC2, etc. I play with a group of friends. We play many different FPS's as a group. Everyone of them hate, literally, can't stand MMO's. I am the lone exception. They would rather go antiqueing or listen to an insurance seminar for 6 hours than bother downloading/character creation/grinding mobs/skills in WoW or any other MMO.
However, it still is a group/social experience. We all play together, when we can... across all these different games. It's not the game, it's the GROUP. The type of game or setting doesn't matter. If they wanted to play Mount and Blade: Warband or some other FPS, so be it. We share voice comms, we have a website, hell we are like a frat, but most of us are married or have a mortgage to pay.
Speaking of L4D and some of the otherFPS's...have you ever had an asshat in your group? Ever had someone TK you in CoD? Throw a molotov in an enclosed area in L4D, either b/c he's an idiot or deliberately trying to ruin your game experience? What happens? You either all turn on him and kill him or everyone leaves/rage quits. Now armed with this knowledge..what do you think would happen to said asshat in EvE or Darkfall? It wouldn't be pretty, because there are consequences to acting like a douchebag.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Well said.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
in case * wow * my opinion commonity started going down when blizzard make everyhting faster, random dungeon tool, instances dont require anymore social looking for this and that at start and instances are over so fast and when everybody have been grinding same instances million times already they know how to go thro them eyes closed so theres no need to type anyhting other than maybe hi, and even saying the hi to everyone disappeared mostly already.
so if you invent everyhting be there in a plate take it enjoy byebye without big effort this is the result.
Well, its been a great thread, lots of good input, some folks disagree of course, or think good gaming communities are a thing of the past but I still can't help wonder, what could be done today to improve the community w/o pissing off the broader player base.
Obviously 10 minute boat rides or 3 minutes to get your health back between fights are off the table. And while many abhor forced grouping, I think there's still ways to making grouping easier and provide rewards to players for assisting others.
How about some sort of achievement system where every time someone assists someone in a quest they've already completed they get some recognition or reward for it. (though care would have to be taken to not encourage too much powerleveling when not appropriate)
How about a little slowdown in the pacing of the fights, do they really have to happen non stop? I think this mentality gets in place because players are racing towards an end game goal, where leveling up quickly is the only consideration, so perhaps some alternate mechanics (other stuff to do) have to be employed to help them enjoy the journey more.
I'd have to put some more thought into this, I'm not willing to surrender the MMO community to the asshats of the world, and I think with a little creativity, MMO's can encourage better behavior from most folks when playing games.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
LotRO has a reward system for redoing quests, but only for the instanced ones. I'd like to see more of that.
WoW is insane on pacing, now. I just started playing again after 4 years and croiky, you can recover completely from being nearly dead in less than 20 seconds(no exaggeration!)! Could be that my toon was just 15th level, but still...
Some form of advancement for going to social areas and participating, I think would be a good start. It seemed like Entertainers in SWG were a start of that and had it evolved, it could've been really cool. I still like LotRO's music system as well. Annoying thing, both lacked the simplest thing... a tip jar!
People WILL take a break from grinding quests to do fun, potentially social things. Bilbo's basement for the LotRO Fall festival was a huge hit. If they were to put some prize or reputation content into more of the social areas, we might see more "stop and smell the roses" communities than we do, now.
Personally I attribute things to a backlash against the 'forced community' aspects of the 'old school' MMOs. People got tired of following the 'community rules' that to many did not make sence and only existed due to tedious, BS game mechanics. When a game like WoW showed people that they could play the game the way they wanted and not the way the 'community' felt was the correct way to play, that monolithic 'community' quickly fragmented.
The downside to people having more freedom in how they socialize is an increase in anarchy. If you want to be social in the game you have to be proactive and work at it rather than having people socialize because of boredom or peer pressure.
It's a combination of MMOs becoming more solo-centric and instant gratification driven, coupled with the type of gamer such design choices attracts.
When players don't need to rely on nor interact beyond an extremely superficial level with other players, the result is a lot of players treating each other with very little to no respect. It's very much the same way in a real world society, in that when people are left to themselves, they tend to developer very selfish and inconsiderate behavior, as opposed to when they have to regularily intteract and cooperate with others... because if they don't they obviously don't get very far in life.
It's nostalgia. A more likely culprit is simply the fact that MMOs have opened up to a much wider sample of population than before, so there are less like-minded people.
The games I've played with fantastic communities have had these features to no detriment. AO, LoTRO and EVE come to mind as best community games and they all had fast travel, quests and a complete lack of forced downtime.
So I think you're mis-matching your root causes. Older games had better comminuties. This is true. Older games tended to have more downtime and less fast travel. This is also true. However, one thing isn't necessarily the cause of the other. Anarchy Online is a first-generation game that had all kinds of fast-travel and one of the best communities. You can take the opposite example - a modern game like Vanguard, that had no fast travel, but still had an awful community (at least on launch, i hear it's better now, but they've also added fast travel - i'm sure it's unrelated tho).
Older games also had less experienced and less knowledgeable players, so it required them to stick together more or rely on each other more. Today, even if i roll a character in one of those old games, I can get all the infoz i'll ever need online without any help, also chances are, because i'm a 10 year MMO veteran, i know 90% of game mechanics without ever playing it. This makes me less likely to have to rely on anyone in another game. Also, today there are hundreds of choices of MMOs, one doesn't worry about alienating the world they're in. They can always quit or leave the server or whatever. In the older games, when there was only 1 or 2 other games and only 1 server, people acted less like asshats.
Anyhow, I don't think it has anything to do with quests or fast travel or lack of forced downtime or instancing. Mostly because the game that had the single best community i've ever been part of had all those things 10 years ago and it wasn't an issue.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
You're right that there should be more of a community atmosphere in games, but I don't think your proposed changes would do much but take a game backwards. Gaming has gotten popular because dated mechanics like these were finally left in the dust where they belong. I think we should be forcing developers to come up with new ideas, not fall back on flawed ones.
EDIT: By the way! Guild Wars is introducing an entire island soon, which is going to become the central hub for pretty much the entire game. You'll be accessing most areas of the game from this island, making it an easy lobby area for people to hang out, socialize, and find a team. All the other areas will still exist of course, but this will create that community atmosphere for people to congregate. I really like this idea, and it's exactly what I mean about thinking of new ways to do things rather than resorting to old ways.
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