What exactly do you mean by math? It seems like you want more realistic, responsive combat, but that math and numbers work very well with that too, in fact it's probably going to require a lot more complex calculations.
For me only fun thing about RPG's is exactly the numbers, the optimization of characters and equipment. It's a core part of RPG's. You are most likely looking for some different genre, MMO, MMOFPS, social game, I don't what all genres there are.
The way I see it when the OP talks about math, is "primary focus" while playing.. For example, when I was a kid playing kickball I didn't spend any time figuring out the mathmatical probabilities of where the BEST optimal loccation to kick the ball.. I estimated in seconds the biggest gap for me to kick the ball and ran like hell.. Being an old geezer today playing golf, I do the same thing.. I don't play professionally, so there is no reason for me to have a caddies yardage book telling me what the exact yardage is from the 8th tree in the fairway to the back of the green.. It's nice to know the approx yardage like 150, 170.. etc .. but I really don't care I'm 146 from the pin and 138 to clear the trap.. This isn't a job to me.. It's a game..
I've seen people kicked from groups because their dps was only 1863, instead of the desired 1900.. or their defense rating was 5 points below def. capped, or this, or that.. I remember back in the day of raiding EQ1, the ONLY number we cared about was "level".. However, the elitist even broght numbers into that game and it grew like a cancer.. Sorry, you can't join us because you aren't max level with 50 AA's etc etc.. That crowd moved on, when the player base felt forced from the game, and the elitist had no one to be elite over, and didnt' like playing by themselves.. I have since been back to SOE and for the most part I don't see much of that mentality anymore.. Those elitist are somewhere else now.. (won't say where tho) lol
What exactly do you mean by math? It seems like you want more realistic, responsive combat, but that math and numbers work very well with that too, in fact it's probably going to require a lot more complex calculations.
For me only fun thing about RPG's is exactly the numbers, the optimization of characters and equipment. It's a core part of RPG's. You are most likely looking for some different genre, MMO, MMOFPS, social game, I don't what all genres there are.
The way I see it when the OP talks about math, is "primary focus" while playing.. For example, when I was a kid playing kickball I didn't spend any time figuring out the mathmatical probabilities of where the BEST optimal loccation to kick the ball.. I estimated in seconds the biggest gap for me to kick the ball and ran like hell.. Being an old geezer today playing golf, I do the same thing.. I don't play professionally, so there is no reason for me to have a caddies yardage book telling me what the exact yardage is from the 8th tree in the fairway to the back of the green.. It's nice to know the approx yardage like 150, 170.. etc .. but I really don't care I'm 146 from the pin and 138 to clear the trap.. This isn't a job to me.. It's a game..
I've seen people kicked from groups because their dps was only 1863, instead of the desired 1900.. or their defense rating was 5 points below def. capped, or this, or that.. I remember back in the day of raiding EQ1, the ONLY number we cared about was "level".. However, the elitist even broght numbers into that game and it grew like a cancer.. Sorry, you can't join us because you aren't max level with 50 AA's etc etc.. That crowd moved on, when the player base felt forced from the game, and the elitist had no one to be elite over, and didnt' like playing by themselves.. I have since been back to SOE and for the most part I don't see much of that mentality anymore.. Those elitist are somewhere else now.. (won't say where tho) lol
Good points Rydeson. I have played with this type as well in my current game "City of Heroes". Thankfully while there are a LOT of people who min/max their toons, there are very few that get snobbish about it. To be honest the community in that game is not very accepting of the snobbish players though, so they either change their tune or find no one will play with them more than once or twice and so move on to a different game pretty quickly.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
It is not game. It is Americans and their culture, their obsession about big numbers, it is very apparent to the outsider.
In the core there is math, because everything, real world or virtual, is math. But real world math is so complex we do not perceive it as numbers. On the other hand most PnP RPGs have manageable numbers, 0-5 or 0-20, which is not perceived as big math either, it is counting on fingers.
MMOs are very simple so every kid can see the "math" behind it but they use bloated numbers so no kid has enough fingers to put real meaning behind those numbers.
Some games that have problems with elitism I believe are a direct result from the game mechanics.. I'll use WoW for that example only because of it's popularity and it's perfect mechanics.. A number of months ago, a fellow poster and were dicussing ID lockout and why it's so distruptive.. I wish I had the link to that post, but in general his explanation was simple and 100% accurate.. I don't remember the boss's name, but in the one raid you have a time limit to kill the boss, if you do not, he gains an UBER buff and wipes everyone.. It's simple math unfortunately, that the dps for the raid must be higher then the average or you fail.. This added to much pressure to just allow anyone to play in that raid.. So what happens is that pepole feel that since they are "locked" into an ID they want to maximize their chances of success.. Why take a mage that does 2,000 dps, when you can grab another that does 2,500 dps, or better yet one super geared at 4,500 dps.. The game has become a competitive pick and choose your friends and guildmates depending what they can do for you..
I come from the mind set that I would rather have 2 friends with me that I enjoy their company each doing 2,000 dps, then one elitist jerk that does 4,000.. Problem is, Blizzards hard cap limit of 10/25 prohibits me from doing that.. grrrr
PnP DnD has lots of math. There is no way to get rid of the math, but the thing to do is hide the math and the numbers. By displaying all of the numbers it adds to the feel of the grind. When you can see a finish line in the distance you notice how slowly or quickly you get to it, but hide the line and you don't notice the time it takes (as much).
If any of you have ever done physical activities that you learn and advance in; such as martial arts, when you are learning a new move combination or whatever, you don't know how close you are to mastering it. You work at it and work at it and suddenly it clicks and you've got it.
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The way I see it when the OP talks about math, is "primary focus" while playing.. For example, when I was a kid playing kickball I didn't spend any time figuring out the mathmatical probabilities of where the BEST optimal loccation to kick the ball.. I estimated in seconds the biggest gap for me to kick the ball and ran like hell.. Being an old geezer today playing golf, I do the same thing.. I don't play professionally, so there is no reason for me to have a caddies yardage book telling me what the exact yardage is from the 8th tree in the fairway to the back of the green.. It's nice to know the approx yardage like 150, 170.. etc .. but I really don't care I'm 146 from the pin and 138 to clear the trap.. This isn't a job to me.. It's a game..
I've seen people kicked from groups because their dps was only 1863, instead of the desired 1900.. or their defense rating was 5 points below def. capped, or this, or that.. I remember back in the day of raiding EQ1, the ONLY number we cared about was "level".. However, the elitist even broght numbers into that game and it grew like a cancer.. Sorry, you can't join us because you aren't max level with 50 AA's etc etc.. That crowd moved on, when the player base felt forced from the game, and the elitist had no one to be elite over, and didnt' like playing by themselves.. I have since been back to SOE and for the most part I don't see much of that mentality anymore.. Those elitist are somewhere else now.. (won't say where tho) lol
Good points Rydeson. I have played with this type as well in my current game "City of Heroes". Thankfully while there are a LOT of people who min/max their toons, there are very few that get snobbish about it. To be honest the community in that game is not very accepting of the snobbish players though, so they either change their tune or find no one will play with them more than once or twice and so move on to a different game pretty quickly.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
It is not game. It is Americans and their culture, their obsession about big numbers, it is very apparent to the outsider.
In the core there is math, because everything, real world or virtual, is math. But real world math is so complex we do not perceive it as numbers. On the other hand most PnP RPGs have manageable numbers, 0-5 or 0-20, which is not perceived as big math either, it is counting on fingers.
MMOs are very simple so every kid can see the "math" behind it but they use bloated numbers so no kid has enough fingers to put real meaning behind those numbers.
TY Gman for the comments..
Some games that have problems with elitism I believe are a direct result from the game mechanics.. I'll use WoW for that example only because of it's popularity and it's perfect mechanics.. A number of months ago, a fellow poster and were dicussing ID lockout and why it's so distruptive.. I wish I had the link to that post, but in general his explanation was simple and 100% accurate.. I don't remember the boss's name, but in the one raid you have a time limit to kill the boss, if you do not, he gains an UBER buff and wipes everyone.. It's simple math unfortunately, that the dps for the raid must be higher then the average or you fail.. This added to much pressure to just allow anyone to play in that raid.. So what happens is that pepole feel that since they are "locked" into an ID they want to maximize their chances of success.. Why take a mage that does 2,000 dps, when you can grab another that does 2,500 dps, or better yet one super geared at 4,500 dps.. The game has become a competitive pick and choose your friends and guildmates depending what they can do for you..
I come from the mind set that I would rather have 2 friends with me that I enjoy their company each doing 2,000 dps, then one elitist jerk that does 4,000.. Problem is, Blizzards hard cap limit of 10/25 prohibits me from doing that.. grrrr
PnP DnD has lots of math. There is no way to get rid of the math, but the thing to do is hide the math and the numbers. By displaying all of the numbers it adds to the feel of the grind. When you can see a finish line in the distance you notice how slowly or quickly you get to it, but hide the line and you don't notice the time it takes (as much).
If any of you have ever done physical activities that you learn and advance in; such as martial arts, when you are learning a new move combination or whatever, you don't know how close you are to mastering it. You work at it and work at it and suddenly it clicks and you've got it.