I like player housing.. it gives me a hobby to fool around with like fishing.. lol
No offence, but I think questing isnt' needed in a GOOD mmo.. Oh granted, there are times doing an epic quest would be fun, like the EQ1 one's.. But running back and forth from a quest hub (town or camp) to the mob to gain MOST of your exp is boring and agrivating.. I mean really...
Quest Giver says, "I need for you to kill 10 orcs" ------- (quest complete)
Quest Giver says, "well done, however did you happen to collect their teeth, I need 5 of them"........... ( GRRR quest complete)
Quest Giver says, "excellent, oops did I tell you to kill the named one too in the back tent?"......... ( 3rd trip back to the SAME FREAKING CAMP.. quest complete)
This shit was stupid, lazy and a royal pain the arse.. I don't ever remember Frodo or Sam running back and forth to quest givers.. Why can't MMO's just be more like adventuring camps.. IMO todays mmo are to focus'd on NPC involvement and questing.. it's almost like gamers need someone to hold their hand..
But what you are doing is lumping "questing" with "how they are implemented" as opposed to what a quest is.
If you ever played a game like baldur's gate or morrowind or oblivion or "whatever" you are still killing mobs and still questing.
But very rarely are you asked to collect x of y. I do know that Oblvion has a few of those but they sort of fit within the game.
Let's take a morrowind example. I was asked to go get a skull that was in a family tomb.
So I find the tomb and have to fight my way to the area with the skull. Then of course return the skull and get the info I need.
These games need to have a bit more of that. Instead of "go kill x of y" go to the top of the tower of babelroth and bring me back the small locked box. don't open it.
So you go to the tower and have to fight 20 or so monsters to get to the top, get the box and either bring it back or open it for a possible bad effect that opens up another quest.
In some of today's games it's "go to the tower and kill 20 mobs and then collect the skull". They need the "go kill 20" out of the equation and just have players concentrate on an actual task. This way the mob killing is more transparent.
It's not questing that's bad it's how it's implemented.
But that's off subject. Point being, if they are to implement housing, they need to implement it in a way that is meaningful to players but that doesn't separate the players from other players.
I agree with you....but couldn't you make the point that instancing (PvE & PvP) and phased content has already done that?
I hate that I keep bringing up UO (...back in my day LOL), but Ultima had a pretty good housing system that offered something more than a place to put your crap.
UO's entire economy was player driven via personal vendors that you were only able to put in your (or a friends) house. You went to cities to advertise for your vendor....so there was still player representation in major cities. In absense of an auction house, you explored the lands looking for vendors that had good deals. A player with really good realestate could rent out their house to merchants looking to sell their wares. Player generated Malls started poping up all over the place.
Star Wars Galaxies also had a great idea in guild driven cities....filled with guilded player housing. Grow it big enough and you could even get your own flight station (flight path) from major cities. Elect your own town mayor, etc.
BUT again...much of the appeal around making player housing more meaningful is in the spirit of a virtual world MMORPG, not the current Action Based Theme Park mold.
I'm not a big fan of player housing for a variety of reasons (guild/clan level housing is a different story) but I realize that MMO's are supposed to be virtual worlds (IMO) and therefore should offer players a wide variety of things to do (regardless of sandbox or themepark).
I sort of like it when ownership of something in a game gives players a reason to interact with each other, and not only just to fight with each other.
I actually thought DAOC's housing was pretty well done, except perhaps for the very high prices but I realize it was meant to be a money sink and draw gold out of the game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Everyone returns to the main city hub from the dungeons and battlegrounds. Now do the same thing with housing...everyone returns to their house. In order for Blizzard to make sure everyone is in the city, the housing would have to be sub-par. To implement housing well, in a way that didn't interfere with their main goal of keeping everyone in the city bopping around together, they'd have to do something different, which would take a lot of work. Nobody at Blizzard has come up with an idea for housing in WoW that wouldn't directly go against their stated goal of making the cities look busy.
The main cities often suffer from over-population if anything, causing bad load lag for people using lower-end systems. Furthermore, people very rarely even bother interacting with each other. The few people who do sit around in the citities and talk are predominantly the high end geared players who are bored and want to sit around and chat with each other in the middle of the highest travelled spot to show off their 'leet epix'.
I fail to see how forcing the bulk of the player population into overpopulated hubs adds anything to the game.
I agree with you....but couldn't you make the point that instancing (PvE & PvP) and phased content has already done that?
I hate that I keep bringing up UO (...back in my day LOL), but Ultima had a pretty good housing system that offered something more than a place to put your crap.
UO's entire economy was player driven via personal vendors that you were only able to put in your (or a friends) house. You went to cities to advertise for your vendor....so there was still player representation in major cities. In absense of an auction house, you explored the lands looking for vendors that had good deals. A player with really good realestate could rent out their house to merchants looking to sell their wares. Player generated Malls started poping up all over the place.
Star Wars Galaxies also had a great idea in guild driven cities....filled with guilded player housing. Grow it big enough and you could even get your own flight station (flight path) from major cities. Elect your own town mayor, etc.
BUT again...much of the appeal around making player housing more meaningful is in the spirit of a virtual world MMORPG, not the current Action Based Theme Park mold.
Well that's a very good point.
The problem seems to stem from what the devs give the players and how the players use what is given. In the wow example, players aren't even bothering to go out of a city, they are just using the lobby. That's sad. I would also argue that raiding for rare items shouldn't be a goal of game play but something that is more rare and special. In Lineage 2 we would do larger raids wiith the hope that we would get good drops but in the end, just doing some of the larger raids really was epic in and of itself.
I don't mind instancing when it is part of a personal story or quest. I also don't mind battlegrounds if they are a part of a multi faceted solution.
Let's look at warhammer.
I loved the scenarios. they were very fun and some of the best pvp that I've experience in a long time. Why? Because there were two large groups with a clear objective and it was a lot of action. This is why in Lineage 2 I preferred the sieges. At least the sieges that were memorable. There were other issues with sieges in that game but that's another topic.
However, in warhammer, the rvr was horrible. It devolved into flipping fortresses. Heck, I remember taking a fortress with a group of people and the enemy showed up. We then started fighting them back. Suddenly someone in chat said "so what exactly are we doing here, are we just skirmishing here or are we going to get another fortress?"
I was so mad. There was no pride in ownership, no reason to keep that fortress.
But that was the open world pvp. It was supposed to be something more than it was but without the right elements was really lackluster.
Me going out in any pvp game and ganking another player has no meaning for me. especially if I'm part of a group and we overwhelm one guy. Now, that's supposed to lead to larger fights but usually it doesn't. My point?
My point is that having an open world environment could lead to exciting game play but it also can lead to an uncontrolled lackluster experience. that is why instancing helps. It focuses the game play. Yet, it can also separate out the community if not done well. In the example above, the rvr game play should have had more consequences, more reasons to do it and the scenarios should have just been fun or a lighter alternative to rvr.
So with housing, the issue is that it should allow an alternative to game play, something more to do but it can't sabotage what is already there.
In my "perfect game" in my mind, I run through some possibilities for player classes. In my mind a necro or mage would be able to get a very cool tower AND land around it. It would be part of an instance for a variety of reasons. However, it wouldn't stop there. there would be separate quests or battles that would be associated with owning it. Somethign that isn't time consuming but that would happen on occasion and would give an alternate advancement. There could even be versions where you can get a party together to help you defend it, etc. But it would be something extra, not a game unto itself.
There should always be a reason to "be" back in the world proper. Allowing for smaller diversions is good because it cleanses the palette a bit.
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I like player housing in games. It helps me feel more attached to that world. EQ2 was nice in terms of customization, but I liked the instances of little housing "communities" of LoTRO maybe even more. I used to like to go meet my "neighbors" (though they mostly weren't home). I loved the different feel of the housing depending upon character race. And I like being able to show off my house to others. But beyond appearances and storage, it's nice when player housing can be useful in terms of a place to craft, etc. Imagine crafting in your house by a nice fireplace, how neat is that?
Player housing seems to be an afterthought in most games though. I can understand this, to a point. The devs need to focus on other core dimensions of their game, though there are some of us that really do wish housing was included more often in the original game concept. If enough people feel strongly about it then there's always the chance it would be added into the game later on, through an expansion or something.
I feel player housing is one of those things that makes good games, great games. Player housing may be the single biggest "attachement" players have to a game (aside from their toon). If I were to begin developing a game today, player housing would be a non-negotiable item for development.
Player housing today is sort of pointless unless you just like to decorate. Only game I could see housing useful in is Darkfall because you actually lose your shit. I really didn't see the need of it in LOTRO..
I might have an idea for world player cities and housing. Let's see what you all think.
Probably works more for cities but I'll throw it out there.
The world should be large and there must be the understanding that everyone doesn't get everything "just becuase" they are subscribers. I know that many games might cater to that but if indeed these are games then I see no reason why some competition can't be involved.
So, within the world are areas that are capable of supporting player cities. If the world is a pvp world then the pvp clans need to compete to hold land and objectives. iF the world is a pve world then clans will have to compete to hold pve objectives, gain points, etc.
Once some sort of criteria is reached a clan/guild "whatever" can claim that spot and build. They have to be active and they have to continually hold their land in a reasonable way. If they want the city to be large they have to do things like encourage players to set up shop there, to sell there etc. They clan has to be active. meaning it can't be 200 people and then only 5 people going forward. The activity of the clan as well as what they do keep the city sort of "charged" so that they can keep it.
If the clan disbands, loses members and can't recover, people quit, etc then the city deteriorates until it is gone and then the land is open for someone who wants to claim it.
You see, I like the idea of finding a place in the world and claiming it. I don't like the idea of someone building, quitting and logging in once per year to make sure their stuff is there.
For housing, a player has to be active, do things in the area, keep a sub, etc. If their play wanes then over a period of time their house deteriorates. If they log back in they work toward recharging their claim but they don't automatically become fully recharged.
Essentially, players and gorups of players get to claim land as long as they meet certain competitive criteria and as long as they are active. If they are not active in the world then they lose their claim. There could still be instnaced housing but if one wants a piece of the world they need to earn it.
Tha'ts a "shooting from the hip" idea. Not completely fleshed out but hopefully you all get the idea. - S
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
WoW could do like Lotro and have housing zones. The housing zones in Lotro are good because you can actually see the house. SWG has the best housing concept, but it would not work in WOW due to the subscriber numbers and serious lag issues. If WoW had housing where you could display your old tier armor, skins of animals that you have killed, and trophies of boss'/rare spawns that you have downed, it would be amazing.
When I played SWG, I would occasionaly go to my house and organize/decorate when I was bored from combat/P|vP. A lot of folks want it, but requests for it are sporadic and Blizzard just watches the topic fade. If folks really want it, we need to push it big time so Blizzard will see that we won't take no for an answer. Additional gameplay options are a win win situation for players.
I might have an idea for world player cities and housing. Let's see what you all think.
Probably works more for cities but I'll throw it out there.
The world should be large and there must be the understanding that everyone doesn't get everything "just becuase" they are subscribers. I know that many games might cater to that but if indeed these are games then I see no reason why some competition can't be involved.
So, within the world are areas that are capable of supporting player cities. If the world is a pvp world then the pvp clans need to compete to hold land and objectives. iF the world is a pve world then clans will have to compete to hold pve objectives, gain points, etc.
Once some sort of criteria is reached a clan/guild "whatever" can claim that spot and build. They have to be active and they have to continually hold their land in a reasonable way. If they want the city to be large they have to do things like encourage players to set up shop there, to sell there etc. They clan has to be active. meaning it can't be 200 people and then only 5 people going forward. The activity of the clan as well as what they do keep the city sort of "charged" so that they can keep it.
If the clan disbands, loses members and can't recover, people quit, etc then the city deteriorates until it is gone and then the land is open for someone who wants to claim it.
You see, I like the idea of finding a place in the world and claiming it. I don't like the idea of someone building, quitting and logging in once per year to make sure their stuff is there.
For housing, a player has to be active, do things in the area, keep a sub, etc. If their play wanes then over a period of time their house deteriorates. If they log back in they work toward recharging their claim but they don't automatically become fully recharged.
Essentially, players and gorups of players get to claim land as long as they meet certain competitive criteria and as long as they are active. If they are not active in the world then they lose their claim. There could still be instnaced housing but if one wants a piece of the world they need to earn it.
Tha'ts a "shooting from the hip" idea. Not completely fleshed out but hopefully you all get the idea. - S
I like your thinking on this Sovrath and agree with what you said. Housing definately needs to be an ongoing thing. I remember playing Vanguard way back and every piece of land was bought and rent was paid for for many months or years so you would have fields of undeveloped property that no player could touch. Very few of the land owners even played the game anymore.
Best MMOG I've played with player housing would be Neocron. What made the player housing great, even though it was only instanced apartments, was that is was very functional. Some of the cool features that I can think of are:
You had cabinets that you would regualrly use to put your extra items that didn't fit in the universal bank.
There was a city terminal for checking ingame news,forums,player info,taking missions, all sorts of stuff.
Whenever you died you could always safely warp to your apt. Warping out from your apt was cheaper to do.
Various locations, sizes, and very distict appearances depending on location (rich,hightech viarossa to red light slums).
You can buy apt keys, give them entrance passwords. Tell someone your location and password so they can come to you and pickup their new gun you constructed.
Special factional clan apartments, and unique apts aquired through faction epic long missions.
Can sit in chairs for RP.
Oh yeah and you can also deocorate it, prefurnished or not with all sorts of objects, place even more cabinets, banks, terminals, or creature trophies.
I might have an idea for world player cities and housing. Let's see what you all think.
Probably works more for cities but I'll throw it out there.
The world should be large and there must be the understanding that everyone doesn't get everything "just becuase" they are subscribers. I know that many games might cater to that but if indeed these are games then I see no reason why some competition can't be involved.
So, within the world are areas that are capable of supporting player cities. If the world is a pvp world then the pvp clans need to compete to hold land and objectives. iF the world is a pve world then clans will have to compete to hold pve objectives, gain points, etc.
Once some sort of criteria is reached a clan/guild "whatever" can claim that spot and build. They have to be active and they have to continually hold their land in a reasonable way. If they want the city to be large they have to do things like encourage players to set up shop there, to sell there etc. They clan has to be active. meaning it can't be 200 people and then only 5 people going forward. The activity of the clan as well as what they do keep the city sort of "charged" so that they can keep it.
If the clan disbands, loses members and can't recover, people quit, etc then the city deteriorates until it is gone and then the land is open for someone who wants to claim it.
You see, I like the idea of finding a place in the world and claiming it. I don't like the idea of someone building, quitting and logging in once per year to make sure their stuff is there.
For housing, a player has to be active, do things in the area, keep a sub, etc. If their play wanes then over a period of time their house deteriorates. If they log back in they work toward recharging their claim but they don't automatically become fully recharged.
Essentially, players and gorups of players get to claim land as long as they meet certain competitive criteria and as long as they are active. If they are not active in the world then they lose their claim. There could still be instnaced housing but if one wants a piece of the world they need to earn it.
Tha'ts a "shooting from the hip" idea. Not completely fleshed out but hopefully you all get the idea. - S
I like your thinking on this Sovrath and agree with what you said. Housing definately needs to be an ongoing thing. I remember playing Vanguard way back and every piece of land was bought and rent was paid for for many months or years so you would have fields of undeveloped property that no player could touch. Very few of the land owners even played the game anymore.
Best MMOG I've played with player housing would be Neocron. What made the player housing great, even though it was only instanced apartments, was that is was very functional. Some of the cool features that I can think of are:
You had cabinets that you would regualrly use to put your extra items that didn't fit in the universal bank.
There was a city terminal for checking ingame news,forums,player info,taking missions, all sorts of stuff.
Whenever you died you could always safely warp to your apt. Warping out from your apt was cheaper to do.
Various locations, sizes, and very distict appearances depending on location (rich,hightech viarossa to red light slums).
You can buy apt keys, give them entrance passwords. Tell someone your location and password so they can come to you and pickup their new gun you constructed.
Special factional clan apartments, and unique apts aquired through faction epic long missions.
Can sit in chairs for RP.
Oh yeah and you can also deocorate it, prefurnished or not with all sorts of objects, place even more cabinets, banks, terminals, or creature trophies.
That's one of the issues i have with lotro housing. Can't sit down. Know it seems silly but if I have chairs I want to be able to sit in them in a way that seems normal.
Housing should allow for extra storage, I like the idea of giving a player an extra place to port to.
I can also see some silly mini-games associated with housing that might give a player a buff or some such thing upon completion.
There could even be separate quest lines for people who actually have a house. As if having a house opens up a series of quests or tasks. They don't have to be serious but fun and amusing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I might have an idea for world player cities and housing. Let's see what you all think.
Probably works more for cities but I'll throw it out there.
The world should be large and there must be the understanding that everyone doesn't get everything "just becuase" they are subscribers. I know that many games might cater to that but if indeed these are games then I see no reason why some competition can't be involved.
So, within the world are areas that are capable of supporting player cities. If the world is a pvp world then the pvp clans need to compete to hold land and objectives. iF the world is a pve world then clans will have to compete to hold pve objectives, gain points, etc.
Once some sort of criteria is reached a clan/guild "whatever" can claim that spot and build. They have to be active and they have to continually hold their land in a reasonable way. If they want the city to be large they have to do things like encourage players to set up shop there, to sell there etc. They clan has to be active. meaning it can't be 200 people and then only 5 people going forward. The activity of the clan as well as what they do keep the city sort of "charged" so that they can keep it.
If the clan disbands, loses members and can't recover, people quit, etc then the city deteriorates until it is gone and then the land is open for someone who wants to claim it.
You see, I like the idea of finding a place in the world and claiming it. I don't like the idea of someone building, quitting and logging in once per year to make sure their stuff is there.
For housing, a player has to be active, do things in the area, keep a sub, etc. If their play wanes then over a period of time their house deteriorates. If they log back in they work toward recharging their claim but they don't automatically become fully recharged.
Essentially, players and gorups of players get to claim land as long as they meet certain competitive criteria and as long as they are active. If they are not active in the world then they lose their claim. There could still be instnaced housing but if one wants a piece of the world they need to earn it.
Tha'ts a "shooting from the hip" idea. Not completely fleshed out but hopefully you all get the idea. - S
I like your thinking on this Sovrath and agree with what you said. Housing definately needs to be an ongoing thing. I remember playing Vanguard way back and every piece of land was bought and rent was paid for for many months or years so you would have fields of undeveloped property that no player could touch. Very few of the land owners even played the game anymore.
Best MMOG I've played with player housing would be Neocron. What made the player housing great, even though it was only instanced apartments, was that is was very functional. Some of the cool features that I can think of are:
You had cabinets that you would regualrly use to put your extra items that didn't fit in the universal bank.
There was a city terminal for checking ingame news,forums,player info,taking missions, all sorts of stuff.
Whenever you died you could always safely warp to your apt. Warping out from your apt was cheaper to do.
Various locations, sizes, and very distict appearances depending on location (rich,hightech viarossa to red light slums).
You can buy apt keys, give them entrance passwords. Tell someone your location and password so they can come to you and pickup their new gun you constructed.
Special factional clan apartments, and unique apts aquired through faction epic long missions.
Can sit in chairs for RP.
Oh yeah and you can also deocorate it, prefurnished or not with all sorts of objects, place even more cabinets, banks, terminals, or creature trophies.
That's one of the issues i have with lotro housing. Can't sit down. Know it seems silly but if I have chairs I want to be able to sit in them in a way that seems normal.
Housing should allow for extra storage, I like the idea of giving a player an extra place to port to.
I can also see some silly mini-games associated with housing that might give a player a buff or some such thing upon completion.
There could even be separate quest lines for people who actually have a house. As if having a house opens up a series of quests or tasks. They don't have to be serious but fun and amusing.
You speak of house specific mini games and (again) UO comes to mind. They have a plant growing system that allows you to grow plants in your house from a seed to full grown flora. There are different types of seeds and you can cross polinate for a chance at rare plant breeds that produce consumables that give nice buffs. You have to water them regularly and give them specific potions depending on what ails them (pest infection, etc). Once a plant is fully grown, you can also switch it to display mode (to where you don't have to water anymore) and you can decorate your house with it.
They also just implemented a chicken fighting system that allows you to put an egg incubator in your house where you incubate the egg till it hatches....having to take regular care of it like the plant system.....and when it hatches you keep it in a chicken coup that you can attatch to your house. You can then train your chicken to gain stats and fight your chicken against other players.
It's these little sandbox-y type of things that allows players to generate their own content and provides a nice break from the regular grind and provides one with a reason to log in when they don't feel like running dailies or dungeons.
I do like having a housing system. Like on Runescape, if you're tired after defeating a hard boss and don't want any noobs bothering you, it's nice to just go to your house to relax.
Also, having extra features in your house (like private portals to certain towns) makes them all the more valuable. They're not only your own private part of the game, but they have their own private advantages for you to use.
Another thing is that some people like to log off at certain spots in the game. Much like coming home after a work day. In certain games where you don't have your own house, people try to fill that gap by finding their own spot that they like and going there.
Housing is very important, but too often neglected. SWG had amazing housing and although there were a few problems here and there was the best implemented. Not everyone agrees though. In SWG, I scouted out my place for a house and built it next to my friends houses in our town. It overlooked the townsquare and you could see the cantina and the shuttleport from my balcony. I built my house and most of the furniture as well, and accented with various trophies and suits of armor that I had made or earned in game. I usually started the game from atop my house on the balcony, and logged off from the same spot, many times as the sun set over the mountain range in the distance. I remeber many good conversations with friends up there, or waving to buddies just flying in from wherever as they disembarked from the shuttle and made their way to the cantina.
LOTRO had housing and while it was welcome, it was instanced and had hooks to place items, thus limiting you in many ways. I'm not sure how SWG managed to do so much way before other mmo's. It's really sad when you see how far we have gone backwards in the genre, instead of forward. The instancing really made housing seem irrelevant to me as I seldom say anyone in the neighborhood.
Housing doesn't really matter to me at all...I've played games with and without it and in the ones with it I never got into the housing stuff at all. I play for PVP, character advancement and socializing with friends.
I like the way DAoC had housing set up so I could run a shop out of my home plus have the tools necessary for crafting there. It was also nice to set the home up with my trophies to show off to my friends. Player housing and guild halls can add a lot to the immersion to a game.
I might have an idea for world player cities and housing. Let's see what you all think.
Probably works more for cities but I'll throw it out there.
The world should be large and there must be the understanding that everyone doesn't get everything "just becuase" they are subscribers. I know that many games might cater to that but if indeed these are games then I see no reason why some competition can't be involved.
So, within the world are areas that are capable of supporting player cities. If the world is a pvp world then the pvp clans need to compete to hold land and objectives. iF the world is a pve world then clans will have to compete to hold pve objectives, gain points, etc.
Once some sort of criteria is reached a clan/guild "whatever" can claim that spot and build. They have to be active and they have to continually hold their land in a reasonable way. If they want the city to be large they have to do things like encourage players to set up shop there, to sell there etc. They clan has to be active. meaning it can't be 200 people and then only 5 people going forward. The activity of the clan as well as what they do keep the city sort of "charged" so that they can keep it.
If the clan disbands, loses members and can't recover, people quit, etc then the city deteriorates until it is gone and then the land is open for someone who wants to claim it.
You see, I like the idea of finding a place in the world and claiming it. I don't like the idea of someone building, quitting and logging in once per year to make sure their stuff is there.
For housing, a player has to be active, do things in the area, keep a sub, etc. If their play wanes then over a period of time their house deteriorates. If they log back in they work toward recharging their claim but they don't automatically become fully recharged.
Essentially, players and gorups of players get to claim land as long as they meet certain competitive criteria and as long as they are active. If they are not active in the world then they lose their claim. There could still be instnaced housing but if one wants a piece of the world they need to earn it.
Tha'ts a "shooting from the hip" idea. Not completely fleshed out but hopefully you all get the idea. - S
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I prefer guild housing over player housing in mmo's. But I think the dev's can do a better job it if they would just put some time and effort into the system, sadly they never do for the most part. And isn't about time we start seeing things like Merchant & Crafting sub-guilds in mmo's?
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
To be honest,i used to be one that couldn't care less about housing,but over time it grew on me and i see lots of potential in it.
The thing for me is i want to see a well thought out process for housing,not something thrown in to attract subscriptions,the way pvp is handled in these games.
From all the various games i have played,housing would need to combine ALL those efforts and more to fully satisfy me.Examples....
I liked FFXI's idea of adding furniture to aid in crafting.I like Eq2's idea of adding crafting stations in your home or guild.I like other games i have played for allowing in home learning of skills/crafts ect ect.I thought it was kind of cool like FFXI had the friendly Moogle housekeeper lol,and you add a bed or something or do a quest for him and he gives you a space upgrade.I would like to see housing done on plots with variosu taxes paid to the property owners.This of course would take a lot of planning as to who would own what and not just a simpleton time=reward structure either.
Anotehr thought i had was from a new idea that has crept up in games...gardening.You can have garden plots on your property.Perhaps even create the whole crafting process around resources on your property and yo uhave to pay a tax if harvesting from other players property.
Basically there is a lot one can do with it,it is still an untapped resource for gaming.What we need is a BIGGER push from players,quit accepting such a simpleton questing treadmill game,that imo is NOT gaming at all,that is a waste of time for all of us,instead lets get some more creative ideas in our games and housing would be an appreciated aspect to add.
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I agree with you....but couldn't you make the point that instancing (PvE & PvP) and phased content has already done that?
I hate that I keep bringing up UO (...back in my day LOL), but Ultima had a pretty good housing system that offered something more than a place to put your crap.
UO's entire economy was player driven via personal vendors that you were only able to put in your (or a friends) house. You went to cities to advertise for your vendor....so there was still player representation in major cities. In absense of an auction house, you explored the lands looking for vendors that had good deals. A player with really good realestate could rent out their house to merchants looking to sell their wares. Player generated Malls started poping up all over the place.
Star Wars Galaxies also had a great idea in guild driven cities....filled with guilded player housing. Grow it big enough and you could even get your own flight station (flight path) from major cities. Elect your own town mayor, etc.
BUT again...much of the appeal around making player housing more meaningful is in the spirit of a virtual world MMORPG, not the current Action Based Theme Park mold.
I'm not a big fan of player housing for a variety of reasons (guild/clan level housing is a different story) but I realize that MMO's are supposed to be virtual worlds (IMO) and therefore should offer players a wide variety of things to do (regardless of sandbox or themepark).
I sort of like it when ownership of something in a game gives players a reason to interact with each other, and not only just to fight with each other.
I actually thought DAOC's housing was pretty well done, except perhaps for the very high prices but I realize it was meant to be a money sink and draw gold out of the game.
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The main cities often suffer from over-population if anything, causing bad load lag for people using lower-end systems. Furthermore, people very rarely even bother interacting with each other. The few people who do sit around in the citities and talk are predominantly the high end geared players who are bored and want to sit around and chat with each other in the middle of the highest travelled spot to show off their 'leet epix'.
I fail to see how forcing the bulk of the player population into overpopulated hubs adds anything to the game.
Well that's a very good point.
The problem seems to stem from what the devs give the players and how the players use what is given. In the wow example, players aren't even bothering to go out of a city, they are just using the lobby. That's sad. I would also argue that raiding for rare items shouldn't be a goal of game play but something that is more rare and special. In Lineage 2 we would do larger raids wiith the hope that we would get good drops but in the end, just doing some of the larger raids really was epic in and of itself.
I don't mind instancing when it is part of a personal story or quest. I also don't mind battlegrounds if they are a part of a multi faceted solution.
Let's look at warhammer.
I loved the scenarios. they were very fun and some of the best pvp that I've experience in a long time. Why? Because there were two large groups with a clear objective and it was a lot of action. This is why in Lineage 2 I preferred the sieges. At least the sieges that were memorable. There were other issues with sieges in that game but that's another topic.
However, in warhammer, the rvr was horrible. It devolved into flipping fortresses. Heck, I remember taking a fortress with a group of people and the enemy showed up. We then started fighting them back. Suddenly someone in chat said "so what exactly are we doing here, are we just skirmishing here or are we going to get another fortress?"
I was so mad. There was no pride in ownership, no reason to keep that fortress.
But that was the open world pvp. It was supposed to be something more than it was but without the right elements was really lackluster.
Me going out in any pvp game and ganking another player has no meaning for me. especially if I'm part of a group and we overwhelm one guy. Now, that's supposed to lead to larger fights but usually it doesn't. My point?
My point is that having an open world environment could lead to exciting game play but it also can lead to an uncontrolled lackluster experience. that is why instancing helps. It focuses the game play. Yet, it can also separate out the community if not done well. In the example above, the rvr game play should have had more consequences, more reasons to do it and the scenarios should have just been fun or a lighter alternative to rvr.
So with housing, the issue is that it should allow an alternative to game play, something more to do but it can't sabotage what is already there.
In my "perfect game" in my mind, I run through some possibilities for player classes. In my mind a necro or mage would be able to get a very cool tower AND land around it. It would be part of an instance for a variety of reasons. However, it wouldn't stop there. there would be separate quests or battles that would be associated with owning it. Somethign that isn't time consuming but that would happen on occasion and would give an alternate advancement. There could even be versions where you can get a party together to help you defend it, etc. But it would be something extra, not a game unto itself.
There should always be a reason to "be" back in the world proper. Allowing for smaller diversions is good because it cleanses the palette a bit.
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Needed for enjoyment? No. Wanted? YES!! (at least by some of us)
I like player housing in games. It helps me feel more attached to that world. EQ2 was nice in terms of customization, but I liked the instances of little housing "communities" of LoTRO maybe even more. I used to like to go meet my "neighbors" (though they mostly weren't home). I loved the different feel of the housing depending upon character race. And I like being able to show off my house to others. But beyond appearances and storage, it's nice when player housing can be useful in terms of a place to craft, etc. Imagine crafting in your house by a nice fireplace, how neat is that?
Player housing seems to be an afterthought in most games though. I can understand this, to a point. The devs need to focus on other core dimensions of their game, though there are some of us that really do wish housing was included more often in the original game concept. If enough people feel strongly about it then there's always the chance it would be added into the game later on, through an expansion or something.
pie.
Great topic!!!
I feel player housing is one of those things that makes good games, great games. Player housing may be the single biggest "attachement" players have to a game (aside from their toon). If I were to begin developing a game today, player housing would be a non-negotiable item for development.
Player housing today is sort of pointless unless you just like to decorate. Only game I could see housing useful in is Darkfall because you actually lose your shit. I really didn't see the need of it in LOTRO..
I might have an idea for world player cities and housing. Let's see what you all think.
Probably works more for cities but I'll throw it out there.
The world should be large and there must be the understanding that everyone doesn't get everything "just becuase" they are subscribers. I know that many games might cater to that but if indeed these are games then I see no reason why some competition can't be involved.
So, within the world are areas that are capable of supporting player cities. If the world is a pvp world then the pvp clans need to compete to hold land and objectives. iF the world is a pve world then clans will have to compete to hold pve objectives, gain points, etc.
Once some sort of criteria is reached a clan/guild "whatever" can claim that spot and build. They have to be active and they have to continually hold their land in a reasonable way. If they want the city to be large they have to do things like encourage players to set up shop there, to sell there etc. They clan has to be active. meaning it can't be 200 people and then only 5 people going forward. The activity of the clan as well as what they do keep the city sort of "charged" so that they can keep it.
If the clan disbands, loses members and can't recover, people quit, etc then the city deteriorates until it is gone and then the land is open for someone who wants to claim it.
You see, I like the idea of finding a place in the world and claiming it. I don't like the idea of someone building, quitting and logging in once per year to make sure their stuff is there.
For housing, a player has to be active, do things in the area, keep a sub, etc. If their play wanes then over a period of time their house deteriorates. If they log back in they work toward recharging their claim but they don't automatically become fully recharged.
Essentially, players and gorups of players get to claim land as long as they meet certain competitive criteria and as long as they are active. If they are not active in the world then they lose their claim. There could still be instnaced housing but if one wants a piece of the world they need to earn it.
Tha'ts a "shooting from the hip" idea. Not completely fleshed out but hopefully you all get the idea. - S
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WoW could do like Lotro and have housing zones. The housing zones in Lotro are good because you can actually see the house. SWG has the best housing concept, but it would not work in WOW due to the subscriber numbers and serious lag issues. If WoW had housing where you could display your old tier armor, skins of animals that you have killed, and trophies of boss'/rare spawns that you have downed, it would be amazing.
When I played SWG, I would occasionaly go to my house and organize/decorate when I was bored from combat/P|vP. A lot of folks want it, but requests for it are sporadic and Blizzard just watches the topic fade. If folks really want it, we need to push it big time so Blizzard will see that we won't take no for an answer. Additional gameplay options are a win win situation for players.
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I like your thinking on this Sovrath and agree with what you said. Housing definately needs to be an ongoing thing. I remember playing Vanguard way back and every piece of land was bought and rent was paid for for many months or years so you would have fields of undeveloped property that no player could touch. Very few of the land owners even played the game anymore.
Best MMOG I've played with player housing would be Neocron. What made the player housing great, even though it was only instanced apartments, was that is was very functional. Some of the cool features that I can think of are:
You had cabinets that you would regualrly use to put your extra items that didn't fit in the universal bank.
There was a city terminal for checking ingame news,forums,player info,taking missions, all sorts of stuff.
Whenever you died you could always safely warp to your apt. Warping out from your apt was cheaper to do.
Various locations, sizes, and very distict appearances depending on location (rich,hightech viarossa to red light slums).
You can buy apt keys, give them entrance passwords. Tell someone your location and password so they can come to you and pickup their new gun you constructed.
Special factional clan apartments, and unique apts aquired through faction epic long missions.
Can sit in chairs for RP.
Oh yeah and you can also deocorate it, prefurnished or not with all sorts of objects, place even more cabinets, banks, terminals, or creature trophies.
That's one of the issues i have with lotro housing. Can't sit down. Know it seems silly but if I have chairs I want to be able to sit in them in a way that seems normal.
Housing should allow for extra storage, I like the idea of giving a player an extra place to port to.
I can also see some silly mini-games associated with housing that might give a player a buff or some such thing upon completion.
There could even be separate quest lines for people who actually have a house. As if having a house opens up a series of quests or tasks. They don't have to be serious but fun and amusing.
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Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You speak of house specific mini games and (again) UO comes to mind. They have a plant growing system that allows you to grow plants in your house from a seed to full grown flora. There are different types of seeds and you can cross polinate for a chance at rare plant breeds that produce consumables that give nice buffs. You have to water them regularly and give them specific potions depending on what ails them (pest infection, etc). Once a plant is fully grown, you can also switch it to display mode (to where you don't have to water anymore) and you can decorate your house with it.
They also just implemented a chicken fighting system that allows you to put an egg incubator in your house where you incubate the egg till it hatches....having to take regular care of it like the plant system.....and when it hatches you keep it in a chicken coup that you can attatch to your house. You can then train your chicken to gain stats and fight your chicken against other players.
It's these little sandbox-y type of things that allows players to generate their own content and provides a nice break from the regular grind and provides one with a reason to log in when they don't feel like running dailies or dungeons.
I do like having a housing system. Like on Runescape, if you're tired after defeating a hard boss and don't want any noobs bothering you, it's nice to just go to your house to relax.
Also, having extra features in your house (like private portals to certain towns) makes them all the more valuable. They're not only your own private part of the game, but they have their own private advantages for you to use.
Another thing is that some people like to log off at certain spots in the game. Much like coming home after a work day. In certain games where you don't have your own house, people try to fill that gap by finding their own spot that they like and going there.
Housing is very important, but too often neglected. SWG had amazing housing and although there were a few problems here and there was the best implemented. Not everyone agrees though. In SWG, I scouted out my place for a house and built it next to my friends houses in our town. It overlooked the townsquare and you could see the cantina and the shuttleport from my balcony. I built my house and most of the furniture as well, and accented with various trophies and suits of armor that I had made or earned in game. I usually started the game from atop my house on the balcony, and logged off from the same spot, many times as the sun set over the mountain range in the distance. I remeber many good conversations with friends up there, or waving to buddies just flying in from wherever as they disembarked from the shuttle and made their way to the cantina.
LOTRO had housing and while it was welcome, it was instanced and had hooks to place items, thus limiting you in many ways. I'm not sure how SWG managed to do so much way before other mmo's. It's really sad when you see how far we have gone backwards in the genre, instead of forward. The instancing really made housing seem irrelevant to me as I seldom say anyone in the neighborhood.
Housing doesn't really matter to me at all...I've played games with and without it and in the ones with it I never got into the housing stuff at all. I play for PVP, character advancement and socializing with friends.
I like the way DAoC had housing set up so I could run a shop out of my home plus have the tools necessary for crafting there. It was also nice to set the home up with my trophies to show off to my friends. Player housing and guild halls can add a lot to the immersion to a game.
Sounds like something that might work well in an MMO.
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I prefer guild housing over player housing in mmo's. But I think the dev's can do a better job it if they would just put some time and effort into the system, sadly they never do for the most part. And isn't about time we start seeing things like Merchant & Crafting sub-guilds in mmo's?
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To be honest,i used to be one that couldn't care less about housing,but over time it grew on me and i see lots of potential in it.
The thing for me is i want to see a well thought out process for housing,not something thrown in to attract subscriptions,the way pvp is handled in these games.
From all the various games i have played,housing would need to combine ALL those efforts and more to fully satisfy me.Examples....
I liked FFXI's idea of adding furniture to aid in crafting.I like Eq2's idea of adding crafting stations in your home or guild.I like other games i have played for allowing in home learning of skills/crafts ect ect.I thought it was kind of cool like FFXI had the friendly Moogle housekeeper lol,and you add a bed or something or do a quest for him and he gives you a space upgrade.I would like to see housing done on plots with variosu taxes paid to the property owners.This of course would take a lot of planning as to who would own what and not just a simpleton time=reward structure either.
Anotehr thought i had was from a new idea that has crept up in games...gardening.You can have garden plots on your property.Perhaps even create the whole crafting process around resources on your property and yo uhave to pay a tax if harvesting from other players property.
Basically there is a lot one can do with it,it is still an untapped resource for gaming.What we need is a BIGGER push from players,quit accepting such a simpleton questing treadmill game,that imo is NOT gaming at all,that is a waste of time for all of us,instead lets get some more creative ideas in our games and housing would be an appreciated aspect to add.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Well i like games like MojiKan where you have your own space to decorate but I also like games like WoW where you just run around.