However. If the game is designed to be soloed to the cap, I don't understand how that concept is thrown out of the window when it comes to endgame. It simply doesn't make any sense. Take it all the way if you do it.
If the game is a grouping game, that should be the primary focus before and during endgame. If the game is a soloing game, the same should apply.
You got a point.
Still, like others have said already here, I believe that it's all about promoting grouping while leveling. Nowadays soloing is more efficient that grouping, so people solo. Make grouping worth it and things will change. I am not making this up, I have seen this happen in other games. People take the most efficient route, simple as.
Now, about the end-game beeing for groups... well, the end-game is supposed to be the most challenging part of the game. Group content is, bar rare exceptions, more challenging than solo content, and I ll give you one easy example as to why:
Say you are soloing a mob that casts a timed debuff on you. If you do not remove the debuff on time you die, so you have to keep an eye on it. Now, make it a raid boss for 20 players. Suddenly you are not checking 1 debuff, but 20 debuffs. On top of that, not all classes can remove that debuff. Now you have to check the debuffs and the positioning of everybody, to make sure you are in range to get your debuff removed or to remove that debuff on somebody else, depending on your class.
So, end-game beeing most of the times group content is something quite natural and understandable.
Still, like others have said already here, I believe that it's all about promoting grouping while leveling. Nowadays soloing is more efficient that grouping, so people solo. Make grouping worth it and things will change. I am not making this up, I have seen this happen in other games. People take the most efficient route, simple as.
Now, about the end-game beeing for groups... well, the end-game is supposed to be the most challenging part of the game. Group content is, bar rare exceptions, more challenging than solo content, and I ll give you one easy example as to why:
Say you are soloing a mob that casts a timed debuff on you. If you do not remove the debuff on time you die, so you have to keep an eye on it. Now, make it a raid boss for 20 players. Suddenly you are not checking 1 debuff, but 20 debuffs. On top of that, not all classes can remove that debuff. Now you have to check the debuffs and the positioning of everybody, to make sure you are in range to get your debuff removed or to remove that debuff on somebody else, depending on your class.
So, end-game beeing most of the times group content is something quite natural and understandable.
Remember, that when you are alone, you need to do everything yourself.
Usually when you solo group content things get harder than if you had a group. It is quite interesting, yet not very surprising phenomenon. I don't know how that applies to content designed specifically to be soloed, but it is not written in stone, that much is certain.
Also, another point to bring is that by promoting grouping you are demoting soloing. So I wouldn't say that this would be the end-all approach, but that games should specialize more to what their vision of the game is. If you want to have a grouping experience in your game, you should promote it. If you want soloers to feel at home in your game, you should promote that instead.
Nothing forced of course.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I agree with this post and alot of the responses. I am a vet mmo player. I haven't been able to find a game I even enjoy because of the way the industry and the players are at this point. People only group for raids and loot other then that they have nothing to do with each other. At least that's been my experience as I continue to try to find a game that I enjoy and want to log into daily. I haven't had that since my beloved SWG hit the wall. The gaming community I grew up in is long gone. So yes sadly the games I tend to play are more solo then group because unlike most players I'm not just there for the shiny loots etc, I am there to actually make friends and have adventures. Taking down the same boss over and over is boring. Maybe I'm just getting too old for this s#@t. Used to be when you logged into a game players would actually say hello that were standing nearby . Nowdays unless you are doing something for them most players don't acknowledge each other, it's a gimmee game world out there and I guess I'll just move along. I really don't think it's the games anymore I think it's the mentality of the majority of players. But then again they had to learn this from the games they have played in the past so I guess it is the game devs fault. All I know is I miss the old days of grouping for the sake of friendship first, adventure second and reward last, the reward for us was each other not the epic toothpick of grelda..that is just another weapon after the shine dulls down.
Still, like others have said already here, I believe that it's all about promoting grouping while leveling. Nowadays soloing is more efficient that grouping, so people solo. Make grouping worth it and things will change. I am not making this up, I have seen this happen in other games. People take the most efficient route, simple as.
Now, about the end-game beeing for groups... well, the end-game is supposed to be the most challenging part of the game. Group content is, bar rare exceptions, more challenging than solo content, and I ll give you one easy example as to why:
Say you are soloing a mob that casts a timed debuff on you. If you do not remove the debuff on time you die, so you have to keep an eye on it. Now, make it a raid boss for 20 players. Suddenly you are not checking 1 debuff, but 20 debuffs. On top of that, not all classes can remove that debuff. Now you have to check the debuffs and the positioning of everybody, to make sure you are in range to get your debuff removed or to remove that debuff on somebody else, depending on your class.
So, end-game beeing most of the times group content is something quite natural and understandable.
Remember, that when you are alone, you need to do everything yourself.
Usually when you solo group content things get harder than if you had a group. It is quite interesting, yet not very surprising phenomenon. I don't know how that applies to content designed specifically to be soloed, but it is not written in stone, that much is certain.
Also, another point to bring is that by promoting grouping you are demoting soloing. So I wouldn't say that this would be the end-all approach, but that games should specialize more to what their vision of the game is. If you want to have a grouping experience in your game, you should promote it. If you want soloers to feel at home in your game, you should promote that instead.
Nothing forced of course.
Nothing forced, of course, I 100% agree with you.
And I am not demoting anything. I just want both things to be on par. The problem is, at this moment, soloing is the efficient way to go in most games. It's quite obvious that grouping while leveling could use a boost in most games.
And yeah, soloing group content is, of course, hard. By definition, group content is scaled for... yeah, groups. You are artificially upping your challenge, the same way you would do if, for example, you did your solo content naked. It's not designed to be played like that, although great players can manage it.
And I am not demoting anything. I just want both things to be on par. The problem is, at this moment, soloing is the efficient way to go in most games. It's quite obvious that grouping while leveling could use a boost in most games.
And yeah, soloing group content is, of course, hard. By definition, group content is scaled for... yeah, groups. You are artificially upping your challenge, the same way you would do if, for example, you did your solo content naked. It's not designed to be played like that, although great players can manage it.
We can obviously want this...
But how to do it in practice is another question altogether.
One way is always the most efficient way, that much we know. Either groupers are feeling inferior, or the soloers are. I don't know how anyone can fix this.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
City of heroes before WoW introduced scaling for task force like Positron one where if people dropped out the numbers of enemies would reduce accordingly. Just pointing out WoW got that idea from another game.
Anyway that was not my point but soloing group content is actually very satisfying and takes skill like that room was it lord or king in Guk where that sword of Ykesha drops .Necros really good necros at level 50 would clear it alone for the challenge. People often do solos of group content to challenge themselves. These days some group content is totally impossible so that aspect is no longer really doable unless you outlevel the content drastically. I have soloed areas of Dol Dinen on my Loremaster for fun and challenge and done that quest alone the one inside that cavern in North Downs where you get that discount badge in the end. Think it is called The Troll Keeper. I did it when the mobs were green to me and I died a few times but I finally managed it. It was a great thrill to get it done.
I also grouped in LotRO but just soloing hard content sometimes is not because I am unsociable.I was an Everquest Wizard and I group a lot and I know the value and joy of grouping too but I don't think scaling raids is the answer. Then it just takes away the feeling of accomplishment if you do it with a group. Raid content is meant to be done in a raid. If you make it scalable the whole experience gets cheapened.
I've always been anti-grouping such as seen on a massive scale like in WoW. I don't feel that you should have to play 10 hours at a time to actually go through a dungeon. However, I feel there should be challenges in a game that are just too difficult to accomplish without the help of others. If the game is completely soloable then it looks and feels like a pretty weak game.
You shouldn't NEED to group, you should WANT to group.
Agreed. Far too much time seems spent on these boards trying to find ways to force players to do something rather than looking for ways to make the gameplay more interesting and engaging so that players want to do it. Making A undesirable to drive players to B seems like a waste of resources in designing A in the first place.
Vindictus is an example of a game where players can solo all tiers of bosses but it's simply more fun to do so with a group. Vindictus also is designed so that anyone and everyone can easily get into a group within minutes, if not seconds. Soloing is entirely possible, and there are even mission tasks to beat a dungeon solo, but most people find grouping up too fun and easy to pass up.
On the off chance that a player wants to solo a dungeon or boss, the option is there and, more importantly it is a rewarding and viable option. They seem to have a good solution for the group/solo issue that many MMOs seem to face.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You don't think you would WANT to group if the rewards were better?
I am capsing WANT and NEED for a reason because it really is part of the issue.
You shouldn't NEED to group, you should WANT to group.
That's really the issue, isn't it? These people don't WANT to group, they only WANT extra rewards. They want more, therefore they get into groups to get it. I have no problem with that in general, at least until they try to force everyone else to group in order to make their experience easier. If people are going to group, they ought to do it for the pure fun of it. That's what they supposedly enjoy. I solo because that's how I have fun. Most people do. It has nothing to do with reward, it has nothing to do with XP, it has to do with fun. If I ever group, it's because I WANT to do it, not because I'm forced, either by mechanics or circumstances.
I don't think allow players to solo everything via scaling is the way to go. Instead, I would argue that grouping just needs to be made easier and more accessible for the casual player.
I myself have become more of a casual player due to getting older and I hardly ever group. Reason being because my play sessions are like 2-3 hours long and I sometimes I have leave unexpectedly if something comes up. Grouping for a dungeon is a huge time commitment. It can sometimes take hours to even find a group and then when you get in the group, the dungeon is normally a multi-hour commitment and you feel guilty if you have to leave because you know you are basically screwing your group over.
So here is what I propose...
1. Implement a matchmaking system for dungeons similar to how WoW's BG matchmaking (or Starcraft matchmaking). You just join the matchmaking queue and go on your way. The system will match you up with a group that needs you (class-wise). Regular groups will still be allowed of course.
2. Allow the matchmaking system to "drop-in" players to groups that have a dungeon in progress but have lost members.
I know it reduces immersion, but really I think it's better than making everything soloable because I actually WANT to group, but I'm not willing/able to deal with the overhead invovled in getting into a group.
While I think those are fine ideas for people who want to group, I'm not one of them. I have even less time to play than you. I may play for an hour or so at a time, rarely ever more than 2 hours at a time and during that time, I'm up and down regularly. I simply have no time for a group, I don't have time to sit around waiting for one, I can't, in good conscience, join one and frankly, the vast majority of people in an MMO aren't people who I'd want to group with in the first place. I just do not want to PUG with random people who aren't looking for the same things I am. I want to go slowly through a dungeon. They want to run around like spastic chihuahuas. I want to clear every room, they want to kill and move on. Even if I had the time to play in a group, I simply have no interest. I may group occasionally with guildies, but in general, even they are off running down the halls as fast as they can and I really don't want to chase them.
It's not just the overhead that I'm not willing to deal with, it's the people.
Hardly. Usually, people group from all over the game world, it's not like they're all sitting in the same place. They're screaming LFG all over the place and when they do find enough people to fill the group, they're spread all over the world, people are in the middle of something, they have to stop at the shops, they have to sell stuff, they have to bio-break, it takes FOREVER to put a group together, have them all travel to the right place and actually step foot inside the dungeon.
Comments
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You got a point.
Still, like others have said already here, I believe that it's all about promoting grouping while leveling. Nowadays soloing is more efficient that grouping, so people solo. Make grouping worth it and things will change. I am not making this up, I have seen this happen in other games. People take the most efficient route, simple as.
Now, about the end-game beeing for groups... well, the end-game is supposed to be the most challenging part of the game. Group content is, bar rare exceptions, more challenging than solo content, and I ll give you one easy example as to why:
Say you are soloing a mob that casts a timed debuff on you. If you do not remove the debuff on time you die, so you have to keep an eye on it. Now, make it a raid boss for 20 players. Suddenly you are not checking 1 debuff, but 20 debuffs. On top of that, not all classes can remove that debuff. Now you have to check the debuffs and the positioning of everybody, to make sure you are in range to get your debuff removed or to remove that debuff on somebody else, depending on your class.
So, end-game beeing most of the times group content is something quite natural and understandable.
Remember, that when you are alone, you need to do everything yourself.
Usually when you solo group content things get harder than if you had a group. It is quite interesting, yet not very surprising phenomenon. I don't know how that applies to content designed specifically to be soloed, but it is not written in stone, that much is certain.
Also, another point to bring is that by promoting grouping you are demoting soloing. So I wouldn't say that this would be the end-all approach, but that games should specialize more to what their vision of the game is. If you want to have a grouping experience in your game, you should promote it. If you want soloers to feel at home in your game, you should promote that instead.
Nothing forced of course.
I agree with this post and alot of the responses. I am a vet mmo player. I haven't been able to find a game I even enjoy because of the way the industry and the players are at this point. People only group for raids and loot other then that they have nothing to do with each other. At least that's been my experience as I continue to try to find a game that I enjoy and want to log into daily. I haven't had that since my beloved SWG hit the wall. The gaming community I grew up in is long gone. So yes sadly the games I tend to play are more solo then group because unlike most players I'm not just there for the shiny loots etc, I am there to actually make friends and have adventures. Taking down the same boss over and over is boring. Maybe I'm just getting too old for this s#@t. Used to be when you logged into a game players would actually say hello that were standing nearby . Nowdays unless you are doing something for them most players don't acknowledge each other, it's a gimmee game world out there and I guess I'll just move along. I really don't think it's the games anymore I think it's the mentality of the majority of players. But then again they had to learn this from the games they have played in the past so I guess it is the game devs fault. All I know is I miss the old days of grouping for the sake of friendship first, adventure second and reward last, the reward for us was each other not the epic toothpick of grelda..that is just another weapon after the shine dulls down.
Nothing forced, of course, I 100% agree with you.
And I am not demoting anything. I just want both things to be on par. The problem is, at this moment, soloing is the efficient way to go in most games. It's quite obvious that grouping while leveling could use a boost in most games.
And yeah, soloing group content is, of course, hard. By definition, group content is scaled for... yeah, groups. You are artificially upping your challenge, the same way you would do if, for example, you did your solo content naked. It's not designed to be played like that, although great players can manage it.
We can obviously want this...
But how to do it in practice is another question altogether.
One way is always the most efficient way, that much we know. Either groupers are feeling inferior, or the soloers are. I don't know how anyone can fix this.
City of heroes before WoW introduced scaling for task force like Positron one where if people dropped out the numbers of enemies would reduce accordingly. Just pointing out WoW got that idea from another game.
Anyway that was not my point but soloing group content is actually very satisfying and takes skill like that room was it lord or king in Guk where that sword of Ykesha drops .Necros really good necros at level 50 would clear it alone for the challenge. People often do solos of group content to challenge themselves. These days some group content is totally impossible so that aspect is no longer really doable unless you outlevel the content drastically. I have soloed areas of Dol Dinen on my Loremaster for fun and challenge and done that quest alone the one inside that cavern in North Downs where you get that discount badge in the end. Think it is called The Troll Keeper. I did it when the mobs were green to me and I died a few times but I finally managed it. It was a great thrill to get it done.
I also grouped in LotRO but just soloing hard content sometimes is not because I am unsociable.I was an Everquest Wizard and I group a lot and I know the value and joy of grouping too but I don't think scaling raids is the answer. Then it just takes away the feeling of accomplishment if you do it with a group. Raid content is meant to be done in a raid. If you make it scalable the whole experience gets cheapened.
I've always been anti-grouping such as seen on a massive scale like in WoW. I don't feel that you should have to play 10 hours at a time to actually go through a dungeon. However, I feel there should be challenges in a game that are just too difficult to accomplish without the help of others. If the game is completely soloable then it looks and feels like a pretty weak game.
Agreed. Far too much time seems spent on these boards trying to find ways to force players to do something rather than looking for ways to make the gameplay more interesting and engaging so that players want to do it. Making A undesirable to drive players to B seems like a waste of resources in designing A in the first place.
Vindictus is an example of a game where players can solo all tiers of bosses but it's simply more fun to do so with a group. Vindictus also is designed so that anyone and everyone can easily get into a group within minutes, if not seconds. Soloing is entirely possible, and there are even mission tasks to beat a dungeon solo, but most people find grouping up too fun and easy to pass up.
On the off chance that a player wants to solo a dungeon or boss, the option is there and, more importantly it is a rewarding and viable option. They seem to have a good solution for the group/solo issue that many MMOs seem to face.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That's really the issue, isn't it? These people don't WANT to group, they only WANT extra rewards. They want more, therefore they get into groups to get it. I have no problem with that in general, at least until they try to force everyone else to group in order to make their experience easier. If people are going to group, they ought to do it for the pure fun of it. That's what they supposedly enjoy. I solo because that's how I have fun. Most people do. It has nothing to do with reward, it has nothing to do with XP, it has to do with fun. If I ever group, it's because I WANT to do it, not because I'm forced, either by mechanics or circumstances.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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While I think those are fine ideas for people who want to group, I'm not one of them. I have even less time to play than you. I may play for an hour or so at a time, rarely ever more than 2 hours at a time and during that time, I'm up and down regularly. I simply have no time for a group, I don't have time to sit around waiting for one, I can't, in good conscience, join one and frankly, the vast majority of people in an MMO aren't people who I'd want to group with in the first place. I just do not want to PUG with random people who aren't looking for the same things I am. I want to go slowly through a dungeon. They want to run around like spastic chihuahuas. I want to clear every room, they want to kill and move on. Even if I had the time to play in a group, I simply have no interest. I may group occasionally with guildies, but in general, even they are off running down the halls as fast as they can and I really don't want to chase them.
It's not just the overhead that I'm not willing to deal with, it's the people.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Hardly. Usually, people group from all over the game world, it's not like they're all sitting in the same place. They're screaming LFG all over the place and when they do find enough people to fill the group, they're spread all over the world, people are in the middle of something, they have to stop at the shops, they have to sell stuff, they have to bio-break, it takes FOREVER to put a group together, have them all travel to the right place and actually step foot inside the dungeon.
It has nothing to do with soloing.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None