I am an old school UO player, a game that pretty much threw you into a world and told you nothing. It is still the best memories I ever had of a game.
I am now a WoW player. I was finally able to set my feelings aside about how an MMO should be, which resulted in me not being able to play an mmo for more than a month or 2 for the past 8 years, to a full fledged WoW player.
All of WoW's leveling is easy, I will give anyone that. But to say that WoW is an easy game is silly. If its easy, go get top ranked in Arena and go kill the Lich King on 25 man heroic (this is an example, this is no longer that hard because of the new expansion).
My point is a good game has a casual portion and an unbelievably difficult hard portion. Its the old axiom, easy to learn hard to master that makes any game good.
Stop saying WoW is an easy game, perhaps its not the game you want to play, and thats ok. BUT its not easy by any stretch of the imagination.
PVP arena is NOT a game,that is a mini pvp sideshow.
Beating a RAID isntance is NOT a game,that is .01% of content.Also having to make a 25 man roster to make something challenging is ridiculous,all you are doing is creating a time sink of having to organize that many people,when you can accomplish the same challenging combat within a 6 man group.
The game of Wow since you brought up the comparison not me,is from level 1-85 all those meaningless quests you do,that is the game.Crafting that is part of the game,crafting is not hard at all.Levleing in Wow is NOT hard at all,killing in anything outside of a RAID is not hard at all,as a matter of fact MOST of it is solo content.
In FFXI there are mobs that are totally normal simple mobs,that can kill you even if you are 10- 20 levels higher,geesh in Wow you could beat a -20 level creature with your eyes closed,heck i can solo even level mobs with my eyes closed.The example of the mob is a sort of Bull,it can turn you to stone,that stone can last for up to two minutes,sure it doesn't always stick on a player 10- 20 levels higher,but it can and then the mob can slowly kill you.There are mobs that can sleep you then follow that up with an ancient spell to one shot any Tarutaru in the game,this is called challenging,what Wow does is not challenging.
Wow reserves challenging for the 25 man roster.
What some are calling challenging in older games is actually just hardships,to me that has nothing to do with challenging combat.Personally i did not mind the xp penalty to all members if one died,i didn't mind corpse runs,except they were flawed design,because it relied on others to help you out,especially the invisible buff.These concepts in their design were not thought out well,we definitely need a better thought process when designing new games,NO not simpleton mode but challnging with penalties,but not over done either,it should be reasonably done.
Example is GW2 is trying to use their heads,they are going to allow a downed player,the ability to fight back with a few downed abilities,to give the player that heroic feeling.Now how well they implement it is a whole other world,but at least they get marks for effort.If tha tdesign proves to be broken,then it bcomes easy mode,agai nwe have to wait and see.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
One problem is that the writer hasn't actually played these games.
[Mod Edit]
Um yes, I have played these games. UO, EQ1, all the early stuff. I just happen to recognise that a lot of what I remember so fondly from years ago is in my head, and that games were deeply flawed back then (just as in other ways they are now).
I also remember 6 hour corpse runs when I had to get up for work the next morning. In hindsight, they were awesome. At the time, with everyone dying time and again? They were nothing but a pain in the ass. Memory is a funny thing.
There was an element of EQ1 that involved learning a messy interface, learning how to do stuff that was unnecessarily complex or unreasonably not "fault-tolerant". That part could be cleaned up without changing the "challenge" of the game itself. Taking away every last thing that is "inconvenient", however, throws the baby out with the bath water. Just one example.
I was taking the boat from BB heading south. I tried to climb up the gangway one night from one boat to another and wasn't really paying attention. I took one step to many and landed up in the drink. Away went the boat. Oops. I decided to swim for it. I went to chat and asked for suggestions. Basic idea was to swim west, hit the evil invested islands off North Ro, and sneak onto an evil ferry boat. Well...I decided to make it work and live to tell the tale. And I did. It took a LONG time. And it was dicey several times. Actually getting onto the evil ferry boat turned out to be the easiest. After I landed in North Ro I reported my success and got a warm round of applause from my guild and friends. It is possible to say the game mechanics shouldn't have allowed such a ridiculous situation. And let me waste much time "not leveling".
But here's the rub. I remember that odyssey ten years later with a smile on my face (partly for my stupidity, but whatever!). And I should add, I have a clear memory of many, many other episodes, most of them not quite as embarassing. I played WoW 1-80 and don't believe I have a single memory that even comes close. If you allow players to make "mistakes", then some strange things may happen. On the other hand, if you prevent the player from ever doing anything wrong you have effectively removed the heart and soul, the real "fun", that is the potential of an RPG.
I think that is the somewhat "magical" part of the early MMOs that has been lost in essentially all of the MMOs released in the past several years. It is an effective straight-jacketing of possibilities. And that is what many of us "old-timers" are upset with in the new games. Give me a chance to be surprized and have to work something out. And sometimes succeed.
Sigh. Nothing that the OP wrote suggests that she has any idea of this concept. I think she (apology in advance) MISSED THE BOAT.
Originally posted by bamdorf There was an element of EQ1 that involved learning a messy interface, learning how to do stuff that was unnecessarily complex or unreasonably not "fault-tolerant". That part could be cleaned up without changing the "challenge" of the game itself. Taking away every last thing that is "inconvenient", however, throws the baby out with the bath water. Just one example. I was taking the boat from BB heading south. I tried to climb up the gangway one night from one boat to another and wasn't really paying attention. I took one step to many and landed up in the drink. Away went the boat. Oops. I decided to swim for it. I went to chat and asked for suggestions. Basic idea was to swim west, hit the evil invested islands off North Ro, and sneak onto an evil ferry boat. Well...I decided to make it work and live to tell the tale. And I did. It took a LONG time. And it was dicey several times. Actually getting onto the evil ferry boat turned out to be the easiest. After I landed in North Ro I reported my success and got a warm round of applause from my guild and friends. It is possible to say the game mechanics shouldn't have allowed such a ridiculous situation. And let me waste much time "not leveling". But here's the rub. I remember that odyssey ten years later with a smile on my face (partly for my stupidity, but whatever!). And I should add, I have a clear memory of many, many other episodes, most of them not quite as embarassing. I played WoW 1-80 and don't believe I have a single memory that even comes close. If you allow players to make "mistakes", then some strange things may happen. On the other hand, if you prevent the player from ever doing anything wrong you have effectively removed the heart and soul, the real "fun", that is the potential of an RPG. I think that is the somewhat "magical" part of the early MMOs that has been lost in essentially all of the MMOs released in the past several years. It is an effective straight-jacketing of possibilities. And that is what many of us "old-timers" are upset with in the new games. Give me a chance to be surprized and have to work something out. And sometimes succeed. Sigh. Nothing that the OP wrote suggests that she has any idea of this concept. I think she (apology in advance) MISSED THE BOAT.
I had a friend who was level 18 playing WoW. I don't remember what class. I'm bobbing around on my level 40 mage and I get a whisper from him asking me if I knew where he was (?). He called me after that and described the area he was in. Turns out he's in the geographic center of Desolace, a level 30 to 40 zone. I asked him how he got there and he said he had run over the mountains from Mulgore. WTF? I hopped on my level 80 priest and worked my way out there to escort him out. Stuff was literally coming from far enough away that I didn't see where it had started to kill him. It was pretty awesome. He didn't die even once. I still have no idea how he got out there without dying.
On my level 70 hunter, a friend of mine was messing with a level 35 hunter near Crossroads. My friend was all into killing other players around Crossroads...he was really kind of vindictive about it. Anyway, I said, "Watch this" and dropped a Snake Trap and kited an antelope across it...it immediately died and then the snakes went after the level 35 hunter. It was funny right up until he died...oops. I really hadn't meant to kill him and he probably didn't realize the snakes would attack him since he hadn't flagged for PvP. I chased him down to Ratchet emoting "/wait", but he hopped on a boat and left. I felt pretty bad about that so I rolled a gnome rogue (this will pop up in the next story) and whispered the hunter to apologize. I explained about not really meaning to kill him and it turns out everything was OK. I haven't talked to him since (I'm really not very social) but we did part on good terms.
On my hunter, around level 45 or so I was hanging around Crossroads (the aforementioned friend who killed people around Crossroads was there) and started dueling a level 19 hunter. I had stripped off my armor and wasn't using my pet or weapons. It was actually close...I had to punch this other little hunter to death. I was seriously thinking I was going to lose. I didn't (boo ya!). Suddenly, my toon falls over dead. WTF? A level 19 gnome rogue had waited for me to get down to almost no health and then backstabbed me to kill me. Aaargh! Over vent I yelled, "Get that little f****r!"...which my friends did. He didn't get away, but he got to tell a story about how he and his friend tricked the level 45 hunter into giving him a free honor kill. :-)
My point, if you've managed to read all this is that your lack of stories in a game has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with you. The game is almost secondary to the stories you tell with your friends. The older games didn't make those stories any more or less likely. You've decided that since the games changed, the stories had to end. They didn't. You ended them yourself.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think the author really took a pot shot at older players while not understanding what it is we miss about older MMORPGs. Heres my short list.
1. The calibur of players you interacted with were better, this includes manners, etiquette and even eloquency of speech.
2. The games were as much a social tool as a game. You had to have a social network in place to advance in older MMOs, you couldnt just solo your way through it on a macro.
3. The work made the end result all the sweeter, when is the last time you were proud of your MMO character? MMOs of yesterday were like learning to play guitar, whereas todays MMOs are like learning to play guitar hero.
4. Immersion, lets face it, now a days its all about numbers and statistics, no one role plays, everyone treats MMOs like console games. What happened to the mystique?
5. The journey, again, to reiterate the journey is more important than the destination. New schoolers really seem to think of games as a race, as some way to prove to your brethren that somehow because you exploited a bug and got to level 100 in 4 hours, theyre a better gamer than you. Indeed not, who wants to hang out with a drooling fanatic instead of someone who is laid back and takes it easy?
I really got a biased vibe off ofi this piece of work, like somehow the author feels negatively towards old school gamers, I do wonder what incidents pushed the author to decide distain was the best flavor of this article.
(quote of Bamdorf's original post deleted to save space. it's immediately above.)
I had a friend who was level 18 playing WoW. I don't remember what class. I'm bobbing around on my level 40 mage and I get a whisper from him asking me if I knew where he was (?). He called me after that and described the area he was in. Turns out he's in the geographic center of Desolace, a level 30 to 40 zone. I asked him how he got there and he said he had run over the mountains from Mulgore. WTF? I hopped on my level 80 priest and worked my way out there to escort him out. Stuff was literally coming from far enough away that I didn't see where it had started to kill him. It was pretty awesome. He didn't die even once. I still have no idea how he got out there without dying.
On my level 70 hunter, a friend of mine was messing with a level 35 hunter near Crossroads. My friend was all into killing other players around Crossroads...he was really kind of vindictive about it. Anyway, I said, "Watch this" and dropped a Snake Trap and kited an antelope across it...it immediately died and then the snakes went after the level 35 hunter. It was funny right up until he died...oops. I really hadn't meant to kill him and he probably didn't realize the snakes would attack him since he hadn't flagged for PvP. I chased him down to Ratchet emoting "/wait", but he hopped on a boat and left. I felt pretty bad about that so I rolled a gnome rogue (this will pop up in the next story) and whispered the hunter to apologize. I explained about not really meaning to kill him and it turns out everything was OK. I haven't talked to him since (I'm really not very social) but we did part on good terms.
On my hunter, around level 45 or so I was hanging around Crossroads (the aforementioned friend who killed people around Crossroads was there) and started dueling a level 19 hunter. I had stripped off my armor and wasn't using my pet or weapons. It was actually close...I had to punch this other little hunter to death. I was seriously thinking I was going to lose. I didn't (boo ya!). Suddenly, my toon falls over dead. WTF? A level 19 gnome rogue had waited for me to get down to almost no health and then backstabbed me to kill me. Aaargh! Over vent I yelled, "Get that little f****r!"...which my friends did. He didn't get away, but he got to tell a story about how he and his friend tricked the level 45 hunter into giving him a free honor kill. :-)
My point, if you've managed to read all this is that your lack of stories in a game has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with you. The game is almost secondary to the stories you tell with your friends. The older games didn't make those stories any more or less likely. You've decided that since the games changed, the stories had to end. They didn't. You ended them yourself.
In your first example, your friend didn't have a real problem. By the time he got to the middle of desolace, his "gate" timer must have been pretty short. Just wait and jump. Even if he died, big deal. The scale of the "issue" is hugely different from my example. If my warrior died in OOT, there was zero hope of ever recovering his gear, not to mention some serious XP loss. The stakes were immeasurably higher. So if I don't think your story isn't particularly memorable TO ME, at least I think I am consistent. In all my time in WoW, the real "stakes" were never high enough to reach a certain threshold. And oh by the way, no high level was about to try to swim out to find me and save me --- it wouldn't have made sense.
Your second example shows a situation resulting from a true exploit. It's one thing to have an awkward interface, it's another to "accomplish" something because the designers have left a hole, in this case so a higher level can kill someone who is not marked for PVP. I DO remember "snake trap" PVP exploits...I remember them very well. And I hated it . So I don't rank that in something I would consider "memorable" in a positive sense.
Your third is a silly duel (which I never cared for, that's just me). No comment.
If these are your examples I would say that what I consider memorable is on a different level than what you do. Fine. I have my druthers. That's what I was trying to explain.
Please to understand. I played WoW for a long time, enjoyed it, and had a very nice relationship with in a nice guild. I don't think I wasted my money. But it never compared in the special way that I have tried to illustrate (here and in other posts) to my experiences in EQ. I don't think that in the year or so in which I transitioned from EQ (which by then was a different game) to WoW I suddenly lost my ability to have "memories". That's a little insulting, actually. I can only state empirically that they didn't happen, and I think I know why, and I don't think it's a neurological issue.
Really nice article. It touches on a lot of issues I try to convey here as well. Easy you say? Trying to convince an experienced mmo player to judge something based on it's merit rather than their experience is like trying to get a NASCAR driver to understand that even though driving on the expressway is far less "thrilling" that what they are normally accustomed to, it doesn't make it any less deserving of their respect nor should they believe their "experiences" automatically make them better drivers than everyone else driving under the same conditions. You never know who's behind the wheel of another car...could be the person that's use to driving on the autobahn.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Really nice article. It touches on a lot of issues I try to convey here as well. Easy you say? Trying to convince an experienced mmo player to judge something based on it's merit rather than their experience is like trying to get a NASCAR driver to understand that even though driving on the expressway is far less "thrilling" that what they are normally accustomed to, it doesn't make it any less deserving of their respect nor should they believe their "experiences" automatically make them better drivers than everyone else driving under the same conditions. You never know who's behind the wheel of another car...could be the person that's use to driving on the autobahn.
The new players are to blame for the woes of MMOs, its practically a study in society in general.
Everything has to be fast, easy, and convenient in order to cater to the now societal norm.
One day when theyre tearing down the last library, Ill cry for all of the kids who prefer the easier route of downloading books instead of actually visiting the library and enjoying the small nuances of actual books.
Why is it so complicated to make a truly immersive MMO? The first MMO I ever played was WoW and I thought it was the greatest thing for three years. Now however; years later and a multitude of gimp patches, WoW is entirely to simply to play. Because if this I have been seeking a new (or old) game and have found that their are far better games (to my surprise) but none of them have everything. Why?
First I tried EQ2 and it's truly a great game (simply no players) for some reason (only played for a month).
Second I tried EVE. Love the idea. Again great game but travel will kill you and even that wouldn't be so bad if their was something to do besides mine..lol
Third was RoM. Again good game (similar to WoW) with some added things but F2P (A note on that - for anyone that doesn't know, F2P is simply a way for Devs to get even for money out of you). Did the math and determined that F2P cost more than P2P for those hardcore players. Keep it simple, either P2P or 100% F2P (no cash shops).
Fourth was Vanguard. I think this is quite possibly the best game out at the moment but because of devastating quality issues at launch, the game is dead.
Current, WURM online. Idea is outstanding. Graphics are so bad; I have a wristwatch that can run it..lol
Waiting to try RIFT and Xsyon.
Why is it some hard for developers to create an MMO with all the great things in current MMO's
MMOs of yesterday were like learning to play guitar, whereas todays MMOs are like learning to play guitar hero. .
LOL...that should be your signiture..
Anyway...i played wow for a while and i have to say it is not hard by any measure. I remember playing lineage 2 when it first came out (maybe not your typical old school game but) i wandered somewhere i shouldn't have been and got killed by an orc and dropped the mighty sword i hard worked so hard to get. I ran back to that spot as fast as i could before anyone else could pick it up and just before i get to it...i can see it just ahead....the same orc kills me again and i drop a piece of armor.
When i played that game i sat up and paid attention. My equipment was on the line here. When i played wow i propped my feet up on my desk (it's L shaped) and watch tv while i played. If i got killed (which was very very seldom, usually i was to wrapped up in tv) I said "damn now i got to run back there. That'll take a minute or two."
People who think corpse running or death penalties are a test of are mettle are confusing it with a test of patience. It is just as meaningful as being still enough to watch the grass grow. I know I could be doing better things that finding my virtual corpse.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
People who think corpse running or death penalties are a test of are mettle are confusing it with a test of patience. It is just as meaningful as being still enough to watch the grass grow. I know I could be doing better things that finding my virtual corpse.
Then again, realizing what a hassle it was to retrieve a corpse often made people a little better player in the clutch, as opposed to saying oh well, wipe, respawn nearby and try again.
You forgot the "barefoot" part. In the snow is only impressive if you're barefoot.
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Whether making something easier or harder depends on how hard it was, and what it was that made it hard. If it's "I can't figure out what I'm supposed to do" hard, as in, an NPC tells you to go kill 10 rats, but doesn't seem to have any clue where they are, then yeah, it should be made clear what a player is supposed to do. If it's buggy, then sure, fix the bugs. If it's fighting with an incomprehensible UI, then yes, fix that.
If one particular quest is dramatically harder than any others in the area, then sure, I'd usually favor making that one quest easier. If it's something boring, like you have to spend hours grinding, then sure, get rid of that.
What I'm usually against is making things systematically easier, as in, all mobs now do 10% less damage under all circumstances.
People who think corpse running or death penalties are a test of are mettle are confusing it with a test of patience. It is just as meaningful as being still enough to watch the grass grow. I know I could be doing better things that finding my virtual corpse.
Then again, realizing what a hassle it was to retrieve a corpse often made people a little better player in the clutch, as opposed to saying oh well, wipe, respawn nearby and try again.
Maybe in a raid environment it could have played out that way, personally I don't know as I was more of an exploring type than a raiding type. But if the goal of the developers of those times was to deter players from exploring and finding new and exciting things, then the invention of the corpse run successfully killed the fun in that for me and I'm sure a lot of players that enjoy absorbing content rather that conquering it.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
People who think corpse running or death penalties are a test of are mettle are confusing it with a test of patience. It is just as meaningful as being still enough to watch the grass grow. I know I could be doing better things that finding my virtual corpse.
Then again, realizing what a hassle it was to retrieve a corpse often made people a little better player in the clutch, as opposed to saying oh well, wipe, respawn nearby and try again.
Maybe in a raid environment it could have played out that way, personally I don't know as I was more of an exploring type than a raiding type. But if the goal of the developers of those times was to deter players from exploring and finding new and exciting things, then the invention of the corpse run successfully killed the fun in that for me and I'm sure a lot of players that enjoy absorbing content rather that conquering it.
Even exploration required a certain level of not just awareness, but preparedness. You didnt just run off into a zone not caring what happened because you would just respawn and thats it. Theres lots of excitement to be had when you know there will be consquences for not bringing your A game.
I think the author really took a pot shot at older players while not understanding what it is we miss about older MMORPGs. Heres my short list.
1. The calibur of players you interacted with were better, this includes manners, etiquette and even eloquency of speech.
2. The games were as much a social tool as a game. You had to have a social network in place to advance in older MMOs, you couldnt just solo your way through it on a macro.
3. The work made the end result all the sweeter, when is the last time you were proud of your MMO character? MMOs of yesterday were like learning to play guitar, whereas todays MMOs are like learning to play guitar hero.
4. Immersion, lets face it, now a days its all about numbers and statistics, no one role plays, everyone treats MMOs like console games. What happened to the mystique?
5. The journey, again, to reiterate the journey is more important than the destination. New schoolers really seem to think of games as a race, as some way to prove to your brethren that somehow because you exploited a bug and got to level 100 in 4 hours, theyre a better gamer than you. Indeed not, who wants to hang out with a drooling fanatic instead of someone who is laid back and takes it easy?
I really got a biased vibe off ofi this piece of work, like somehow the author feels negatively towards old school gamers, I do wonder what incidents pushed the author to decide distain was the best flavor of this article.
[object Window]
I agree on all points. Yes, games were harder, thus providing a sense of accomplishment when you overcome whatever obstacle you[object Window]re facing, but that[object Window]s just one of many reasons that games [object Window]back then[object Window] were superior. In my opinion, being harder is pretty low on the list as to why older games were better. High on the list are the reasons you listed. Yes, there were bugs and clunky UIs (and there still are in many games..). However, despite those problems those games were just better because of the social experience, the immersion, the people, and the journey.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
People who think corpse running or death penalties are a test of are mettle are confusing it with a test of patience. It is just as meaningful as being still enough to watch the grass grow. I know I could be doing better things that finding my virtual corpse.
Then again, realizing what a hassle it was to retrieve a corpse often made people a little better player in the clutch, as opposed to saying oh well, wipe, respawn nearby and try again.
Maybe in a raid environment it could have played out that way, personally I don't know as I was more of an exploring type than a raiding type. But if the goal of the developers of those times was to deter players from exploring and finding new and exciting things, then the invention of the corpse run successfully killed the fun in that for me and I'm sure a lot of players that enjoy absorbing content rather that conquering it.
Even exploration required a certain level of not just awareness, but preparedness. You didnt just run off into a zone not caring what happened because you would just respawn and thats it. Theres lots of excitement to be had when you know there will be consquences for not bringing your A game.
lol, imagining that in my head turns out like this: Joe, ever inquisitive, sets off into the new world. He is just looking for some adventure and fun. Carefree, Joe just wanders into the wilderness in which he is killed by a particulary dangerous mob. Joe runs all the way back to his body as fast as he can as he relises if he doesnt he will lose all his stuff he has been working on. As he gets there a more powerful player has looted it for himself. "Noooo!?" cries Joe, "All my stuff! These game mechanics...THIS IS MADNESS!!!"
"MADNESS!?" yells the more powerful player "THIS IS SPPPAA"....
....meanwhile at Blizzard Entertainment.....
"hey guys I think its a bit unfair for guys to lose their stuff when they die, I mean they worked for that stuff, wouldnt it be more fun if it was a discouraging punishment like losing currency?"
To say WoW isn't easymode between WotLK and vanilla is assinine. To say people complain about streamlining is, too. Lack of death penalties and lack of grinds make things worthless.
Great article. I do 100% agree that a lot of the tedium in MMO's should be removed. I am a big fan of pets doing menial tasks like gathering resources, easy teleporting to different areas, fast movement, respecs, easy to use and quick lfg function etc.
However, I am a huge fan of overly complicated skills systems, customization and combat. I am not saying stream-lining this stuff is bad necessarly but the games that interest me are the games that seem daunting to learn. I see no problem with wanting a game to be more like calculus then gym class.
Playing: PO, EVE Waiting for: WoD Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
Perhaps if Miss Parsley read the many threads on this site which prove how simple games including MMO’s have become she would not hold this view. Do I have to repeat all that here? If someone asks I will, but the argument that games have become easy mode was established years ago. This is a case of coming to the table rather late and with nothing to add. I will confine myself to answering the points she has raised.
If I hear people blaming this one more time on nostalgia I will have to bite my tongue, yes that’s brought out every time. Amazingly it is possible to be introspective enough to know when you are just being nostalgic, try self awareness sometime it might help you to form an unbiased opinion.
“Maybe making things simpler and somewhat easier does cheapen the achievement of those who did it the old way.”
But hang on she just told us its all in our minds, easy mode does not exist, make your mind up darling.
Yes MMO’s do need to change, but we are talking about huge changes in gameplay here, not just sorting out the bugs. Get real.
WoW had easy mode starter areas as it is, is anyone here going to argue they were difficult? So if they are now easier as Miss Parsley says what conclusion can you draw but that WoW is being dumbed down?
You defend the changes in WoW saying it is harder for healers and tanks. Yet on this site we hear that the game is now a cake walk for toddlers. Spells now flash on your power bar when you need to use them. You can train a chimpanzee to respond to flashing buttons, just how much more of this ‘fun’ do you think MMO’s need?
“Easier does not equal bad. Harder does not equal more fun”
True, but if everything is easy then it does equal bad and less fun. This move to easy mode is across the board. Raids are made simpler, easy starter zones are redesigned so your dog could play them. If all MMO’s were getting much harder I would say that were an issue too. This is a question of balance, a balance that has been totally lost in the drive to make a game everyone; your mate, your mum and your dog can play.
Well my mate, my mum and my dog don’t all necessarily want to play the same game as me, get it? Is it so hard to understand that different people will want to play games with different styles of gameplay? One brand does not suit all.
Edit: Looking back at this post I must apologise if my anger made my language too colourful. But my anger is due to my favourite pass time being led down a blind alley which I am not sure it can come back from.
Very easy to fix some of the WoW problems for example,remove the option to choose hard/easy whatever dungeon,choose hard/easy etc servers instead when you create a character and dungeon/game difficulty is based on that decision.
ofcourse never ever cant swap characters between easy->hard etc servers.
One part you have to consider is advancing technology in the game. This could be vertical (uping the level max like in wow) or horizontal where anyone can use it at any level it's just another thing you need to learn/train to be able to compete (like rigs or heat in eve).
When you add things like this you usually want to speed up how long it takes you to get to where the competition is. It makes sense you want technology to advance but you gotta be careful with this. Take a lesson from anime like DBZ, when people keep 1 up'ing each other and they could 1 shot planets 50 levels ago it kind of gets messy and may involve some fridge logic.
There are also cases which I don't agree with. The recent removal of learning skills in eve is one. While I admit eve is better without learning skills I think there where much better ways this could of been done without removing a part of the game or a proper analysis of the problem could have helped too. CCP even said there may have been better solutions but in their dev blog they pretty much said "we're rushing it and doing the simplest solution rather than a better job". When you end up worse off with changes you don't agree with cause the devs say their rushing it that I can't agree with.
I thought about writing a lengthy response to this article. But the 100 other lengthy responses I have written to similar posts never persuaded anyone who refuses to see what was different about early mmos, so I won't. It's like trying to explain to a Hannah Montana fan that Woodstock was a unique and socially relevant experience. All you get in response is "But Hannah's so cool and so preeeeetty and has sold so many records." Obviously then she's just as good or better, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just a nostalgic old fart.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Comments
PVP arena is NOT a game,that is a mini pvp sideshow.
Beating a RAID isntance is NOT a game,that is .01% of content.Also having to make a 25 man roster to make something challenging is ridiculous,all you are doing is creating a time sink of having to organize that many people,when you can accomplish the same challenging combat within a 6 man group.
The game of Wow since you brought up the comparison not me,is from level 1-85 all those meaningless quests you do,that is the game.Crafting that is part of the game,crafting is not hard at all.Levleing in Wow is NOT hard at all,killing in anything outside of a RAID is not hard at all,as a matter of fact MOST of it is solo content.
In FFXI there are mobs that are totally normal simple mobs,that can kill you even if you are 10- 20 levels higher,geesh in Wow you could beat a -20 level creature with your eyes closed,heck i can solo even level mobs with my eyes closed.The example of the mob is a sort of Bull,it can turn you to stone,that stone can last for up to two minutes,sure it doesn't always stick on a player 10- 20 levels higher,but it can and then the mob can slowly kill you.There are mobs that can sleep you then follow that up with an ancient spell to one shot any Tarutaru in the game,this is called challenging,what Wow does is not challenging.
Wow reserves challenging for the 25 man roster.
What some are calling challenging in older games is actually just hardships,to me that has nothing to do with challenging combat.Personally i did not mind the xp penalty to all members if one died,i didn't mind corpse runs,except they were flawed design,because it relied on others to help you out,especially the invisible buff.These concepts in their design were not thought out well,we definitely need a better thought process when designing new games,NO not simpleton mode but challnging with penalties,but not over done either,it should be reasonably done.
Example is GW2 is trying to use their heads,they are going to allow a downed player,the ability to fight back with a few downed abilities,to give the player that heroic feeling.Now how well they implement it is a whole other world,but at least they get marks for effort.If tha tdesign proves to be broken,then it bcomes easy mode,agai nwe have to wait and see.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
There was an element of EQ1 that involved learning a messy interface, learning how to do stuff that was unnecessarily complex or unreasonably not "fault-tolerant". That part could be cleaned up without changing the "challenge" of the game itself. Taking away every last thing that is "inconvenient", however, throws the baby out with the bath water. Just one example.
I was taking the boat from BB heading south. I tried to climb up the gangway one night from one boat to another and wasn't really paying attention. I took one step to many and landed up in the drink. Away went the boat. Oops. I decided to swim for it. I went to chat and asked for suggestions. Basic idea was to swim west, hit the evil invested islands off North Ro, and sneak onto an evil ferry boat. Well...I decided to make it work and live to tell the tale. And I did. It took a LONG time. And it was dicey several times. Actually getting onto the evil ferry boat turned out to be the easiest. After I landed in North Ro I reported my success and got a warm round of applause from my guild and friends. It is possible to say the game mechanics shouldn't have allowed such a ridiculous situation. And let me waste much time "not leveling".
But here's the rub. I remember that odyssey ten years later with a smile on my face (partly for my stupidity, but whatever!). And I should add, I have a clear memory of many, many other episodes, most of them not quite as embarassing. I played WoW 1-80 and don't believe I have a single memory that even comes close. If you allow players to make "mistakes", then some strange things may happen. On the other hand, if you prevent the player from ever doing anything wrong you have effectively removed the heart and soul, the real "fun", that is the potential of an RPG.
I think that is the somewhat "magical" part of the early MMOs that has been lost in essentially all of the MMOs released in the past several years. It is an effective straight-jacketing of possibilities. And that is what many of us "old-timers" are upset with in the new games. Give me a chance to be surprized and have to work something out. And sometimes succeed.
Sigh. Nothing that the OP wrote suggests that she has any idea of this concept. I think she (apology in advance) MISSED THE BOAT.
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Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...
I had a friend who was level 18 playing WoW. I don't remember what class. I'm bobbing around on my level 40 mage and I get a whisper from him asking me if I knew where he was (?). He called me after that and described the area he was in. Turns out he's in the geographic center of Desolace, a level 30 to 40 zone. I asked him how he got there and he said he had run over the mountains from Mulgore. WTF? I hopped on my level 80 priest and worked my way out there to escort him out. Stuff was literally coming from far enough away that I didn't see where it had started to kill him. It was pretty awesome. He didn't die even once. I still have no idea how he got out there without dying.
On my level 70 hunter, a friend of mine was messing with a level 35 hunter near Crossroads. My friend was all into killing other players around Crossroads...he was really kind of vindictive about it. Anyway, I said, "Watch this" and dropped a Snake Trap and kited an antelope across it...it immediately died and then the snakes went after the level 35 hunter. It was funny right up until he died...oops. I really hadn't meant to kill him and he probably didn't realize the snakes would attack him since he hadn't flagged for PvP. I chased him down to Ratchet emoting "/wait", but he hopped on a boat and left. I felt pretty bad about that so I rolled a gnome rogue (this will pop up in the next story) and whispered the hunter to apologize. I explained about not really meaning to kill him and it turns out everything was OK. I haven't talked to him since (I'm really not very social) but we did part on good terms.
On my hunter, around level 45 or so I was hanging around Crossroads (the aforementioned friend who killed people around Crossroads was there) and started dueling a level 19 hunter. I had stripped off my armor and wasn't using my pet or weapons. It was actually close...I had to punch this other little hunter to death. I was seriously thinking I was going to lose. I didn't (boo ya!). Suddenly, my toon falls over dead. WTF? A level 19 gnome rogue had waited for me to get down to almost no health and then backstabbed me to kill me. Aaargh! Over vent I yelled, "Get that little f****r!"...which my friends did. He didn't get away, but he got to tell a story about how he and his friend tricked the level 45 hunter into giving him a free honor kill. :-)
My point, if you've managed to read all this is that your lack of stories in a game has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with you. The game is almost secondary to the stories you tell with your friends. The older games didn't make those stories any more or less likely. You've decided that since the games changed, the stories had to end. They didn't. You ended them yourself.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think the author really took a pot shot at older players while not understanding what it is we miss about older MMORPGs. Heres my short list.
1. The calibur of players you interacted with were better, this includes manners, etiquette and even eloquency of speech.
2. The games were as much a social tool as a game. You had to have a social network in place to advance in older MMOs, you couldnt just solo your way through it on a macro.
3. The work made the end result all the sweeter, when is the last time you were proud of your MMO character? MMOs of yesterday were like learning to play guitar, whereas todays MMOs are like learning to play guitar hero.
4. Immersion, lets face it, now a days its all about numbers and statistics, no one role plays, everyone treats MMOs like console games. What happened to the mystique?
5. The journey, again, to reiterate the journey is more important than the destination. New schoolers really seem to think of games as a race, as some way to prove to your brethren that somehow because you exploited a bug and got to level 100 in 4 hours, theyre a better gamer than you. Indeed not, who wants to hang out with a drooling fanatic instead of someone who is laid back and takes it easy?
I really got a biased vibe off ofi this piece of work, like somehow the author feels negatively towards old school gamers, I do wonder what incidents pushed the author to decide distain was the best flavor of this article.
In your first example, your friend didn't have a real problem. By the time he got to the middle of desolace, his "gate" timer must have been pretty short. Just wait and jump. Even if he died, big deal. The scale of the "issue" is hugely different from my example. If my warrior died in OOT, there was zero hope of ever recovering his gear, not to mention some serious XP loss. The stakes were immeasurably higher. So if I don't think your story isn't particularly memorable TO ME, at least I think I am consistent. In all my time in WoW, the real "stakes" were never high enough to reach a certain threshold. And oh by the way, no high level was about to try to swim out to find me and save me --- it wouldn't have made sense.
Your second example shows a situation resulting from a true exploit. It's one thing to have an awkward interface, it's another to "accomplish" something because the designers have left a hole, in this case so a higher level can kill someone who is not marked for PVP. I DO remember "snake trap" PVP exploits...I remember them very well. And I hated it . So I don't rank that in something I would consider "memorable" in a positive sense.
Your third is a silly duel (which I never cared for, that's just me). No comment.
If these are your examples I would say that what I consider memorable is on a different level than what you do. Fine. I have my druthers. That's what I was trying to explain.
Please to understand. I played WoW for a long time, enjoyed it, and had a very nice relationship with in a nice guild. I don't think I wasted my money. But it never compared in the special way that I have tried to illustrate (here and in other posts) to my experiences in EQ. I don't think that in the year or so in which I transitioned from EQ (which by then was a different game) to WoW I suddenly lost my ability to have "memories". That's a little insulting, actually. I can only state empirically that they didn't happen, and I think I know why, and I don't think it's a neurological issue.
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Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...
Really nice article. It touches on a lot of issues I try to convey here as well. Easy you say? Trying to convince an experienced mmo player to judge something based on it's merit rather than their experience is like trying to get a NASCAR driver to understand that even though driving on the expressway is far less "thrilling" that what they are normally accustomed to, it doesn't make it any less deserving of their respect nor should they believe their "experiences" automatically make them better drivers than everyone else driving under the same conditions. You never know who's behind the wheel of another car...could be the person that's use to driving on the autobahn.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
The new players are to blame for the woes of MMOs, its practically a study in society in general.
Everything has to be fast, easy, and convenient in order to cater to the now societal norm.
One day when theyre tearing down the last library, Ill cry for all of the kids who prefer the easier route of downloading books instead of actually visiting the library and enjoying the small nuances of actual books.
Not to mention a chip on her shoulder.
Why is it so complicated to make a truly immersive MMO? The first MMO I ever played was WoW and I thought it was the greatest thing for three years. Now however; years later and a multitude of gimp patches, WoW is entirely to simply to play. Because if this I have been seeking a new (or old) game and have found that their are far better games (to my surprise) but none of them have everything. Why?
First I tried EQ2 and it's truly a great game (simply no players) for some reason (only played for a month).
Second I tried EVE. Love the idea. Again great game but travel will kill you and even that wouldn't be so bad if their was something to do besides mine..lol
Third was RoM. Again good game (similar to WoW) with some added things but F2P (A note on that - for anyone that doesn't know, F2P is simply a way for Devs to get even for money out of you). Did the math and determined that F2P cost more than P2P for those hardcore players. Keep it simple, either P2P or 100% F2P (no cash shops).
Fourth was Vanguard. I think this is quite possibly the best game out at the moment but because of devastating quality issues at launch, the game is dead.
Current, WURM online. Idea is outstanding. Graphics are so bad; I have a wristwatch that can run it..lol
Waiting to try RIFT and Xsyon.
Why is it some hard for developers to create an MMO with all the great things in current MMO's
Graphics of Vanguard (without the glitches).
Quests of WoW, EQ2
Crafting of WURM, Fallen Earth, EvE
Dungeons of EQ2 (WoW = joke)
Combat of Vindicus
Player number of WoW..lol
Etc, you get the point, Why? Why? Why?
LOL...that should be your signiture..
Anyway...i played wow for a while and i have to say it is not hard by any measure. I remember playing lineage 2 when it first came out (maybe not your typical old school game but) i wandered somewhere i shouldn't have been and got killed by an orc and dropped the mighty sword i hard worked so hard to get. I ran back to that spot as fast as i could before anyone else could pick it up and just before i get to it...i can see it just ahead....the same orc kills me again and i drop a piece of armor.
When i played that game i sat up and paid attention. My equipment was on the line here. When i played wow i propped my feet up on my desk (it's L shaped) and watch tv while i played. If i got killed (which was very very seldom, usually i was to wrapped up in tv) I said "damn now i got to run back there. That'll take a minute or two."
When dieing doesn't matter then whats the point.
People who think corpse running or death penalties are a test of are mettle are confusing it with a test of patience. It is just as meaningful as being still enough to watch the grass grow. I know I could be doing better things that finding my virtual corpse.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Then again, realizing what a hassle it was to retrieve a corpse often made people a little better player in the clutch, as opposed to saying oh well, wipe, respawn nearby and try again.
You forgot the "barefoot" part. In the snow is only impressive if you're barefoot.
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Whether making something easier or harder depends on how hard it was, and what it was that made it hard. If it's "I can't figure out what I'm supposed to do" hard, as in, an NPC tells you to go kill 10 rats, but doesn't seem to have any clue where they are, then yeah, it should be made clear what a player is supposed to do. If it's buggy, then sure, fix the bugs. If it's fighting with an incomprehensible UI, then yes, fix that.
If one particular quest is dramatically harder than any others in the area, then sure, I'd usually favor making that one quest easier. If it's something boring, like you have to spend hours grinding, then sure, get rid of that.
What I'm usually against is making things systematically easier, as in, all mobs now do 10% less damage under all circumstances.
Maybe in a raid environment it could have played out that way, personally I don't know as I was more of an exploring type than a raiding type. But if the goal of the developers of those times was to deter players from exploring and finding new and exciting things, then the invention of the corpse run successfully killed the fun in that for me and I'm sure a lot of players that enjoy absorbing content rather that conquering it.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Even exploration required a certain level of not just awareness, but preparedness. You didnt just run off into a zone not caring what happened because you would just respawn and thats it. Theres lots of excitement to be had when you know there will be consquences for not bringing your A game.
[object Window]
I agree on all points. Yes, games were harder, thus providing a sense of accomplishment when you overcome whatever obstacle you[object Window]re facing, but that[object Window]s just one of many reasons that games [object Window]back then[object Window] were superior. In my opinion, being harder is pretty low on the list as to why older games were better. High on the list are the reasons you listed. Yes, there were bugs and clunky UIs (and there still are in many games..). However, despite those problems those games were just better because of the social experience, the immersion, the people, and the journey.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
lol, imagining that in my head turns out like this: Joe, ever inquisitive, sets off into the new world. He is just looking for some adventure and fun. Carefree, Joe just wanders into the wilderness in which he is killed by a particulary dangerous mob. Joe runs all the way back to his body as fast as he can as he relises if he doesnt he will lose all his stuff he has been working on. As he gets there a more powerful player has looted it for himself. "Noooo!?" cries Joe, "All my stuff! These game mechanics...THIS IS MADNESS!!!"
"MADNESS!?" yells the more powerful player "THIS IS SPPPAA"....
....meanwhile at Blizzard Entertainment.....
"hey guys I think its a bit unfair for guys to lose their stuff when they die, I mean they worked for that stuff, wouldnt it be more fun if it was a discouraging punishment like losing currency?"
"Gary, your getting a bonus!"
More powerful player:"DAMN YOU GARY!!!!!"
To say WoW isn't easymode between WotLK and vanilla is assinine. To say people complain about streamlining is, too. Lack of death penalties and lack of grinds make things worthless.
"And I was THANKFUL for it!"
Great article. I do 100% agree that a lot of the tedium in MMO's should be removed. I am a big fan of pets doing menial tasks like gathering resources, easy teleporting to different areas, fast movement, respecs, easy to use and quick lfg function etc.
However, I am a huge fan of overly complicated skills systems, customization and combat. I am not saying stream-lining this stuff is bad necessarly but the games that interest me are the games that seem daunting to learn. I see no problem with wanting a game to be more like calculus then gym class.
Playing: PO, EVE
Waiting for: WoD
Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
Perhaps if Miss Parsley read the many threads on this site which prove how simple games including MMO’s have become she would not hold this view. Do I have to repeat all that here? If someone asks I will, but the argument that games have become easy mode was established years ago. This is a case of coming to the table rather late and with nothing to add. I will confine myself to answering the points she has raised.
If I hear people blaming this one more time on nostalgia I will have to bite my tongue, yes that’s brought out every time. Amazingly it is possible to be introspective enough to know when you are just being nostalgic, try self awareness sometime it might help you to form an unbiased opinion.
“Maybe making things simpler and somewhat easier does cheapen the achievement of those who did it the old way.”
But hang on she just told us its all in our minds, easy mode does not exist, make your mind up darling.
Yes MMO’s do need to change, but we are talking about huge changes in gameplay here, not just sorting out the bugs. Get real.
WoW had easy mode starter areas as it is, is anyone here going to argue they were difficult? So if they are now easier as Miss Parsley says what conclusion can you draw but that WoW is being dumbed down?
You defend the changes in WoW saying it is harder for healers and tanks. Yet on this site we hear that the game is now a cake walk for toddlers. Spells now flash on your power bar when you need to use them. You can train a chimpanzee to respond to flashing buttons, just how much more of this ‘fun’ do you think MMO’s need?
“Easier does not equal bad. Harder does not equal more fun”
True, but if everything is easy then it does equal bad and less fun. This move to easy mode is across the board. Raids are made simpler, easy starter zones are redesigned so your dog could play them. If all MMO’s were getting much harder I would say that were an issue too. This is a question of balance, a balance that has been totally lost in the drive to make a game everyone; your mate, your mum and your dog can play.
Well my mate, my mum and my dog don’t all necessarily want to play the same game as me, get it? Is it so hard to understand that different people will want to play games with different styles of gameplay? One brand does not suit all.
Edit: Looking back at this post I must apologise if my anger made my language too colourful. But my anger is due to my favourite pass time being led down a blind alley which I am not sure it can come back from.
Very easy to fix some of the WoW problems for example,remove the option to choose hard/easy whatever dungeon,choose hard/easy etc servers instead when you create a character and dungeon/game difficulty is based on that decision.
ofcourse never ever cant swap characters between easy->hard etc servers.
Generation P
One part you have to consider is advancing technology in the game. This could be vertical (uping the level max like in wow) or horizontal where anyone can use it at any level it's just another thing you need to learn/train to be able to compete (like rigs or heat in eve).
When you add things like this you usually want to speed up how long it takes you to get to where the competition is. It makes sense you want technology to advance but you gotta be careful with this. Take a lesson from anime like DBZ, when people keep 1 up'ing each other and they could 1 shot planets 50 levels ago it kind of gets messy and may involve some fridge logic.
There are also cases which I don't agree with. The recent removal of learning skills in eve is one. While I admit eve is better without learning skills I think there where much better ways this could of been done without removing a part of the game or a proper analysis of the problem could have helped too. CCP even said there may have been better solutions but in their dev blog they pretty much said "we're rushing it and doing the simplest solution rather than a better job". When you end up worse off with changes you don't agree with cause the devs say their rushing it that I can't agree with.
Into the breach meatbags
I thought about writing a lengthy response to this article. But the 100 other lengthy responses I have written to similar posts never persuaded anyone who refuses to see what was different about early mmos, so I won't. It's like trying to explain to a Hannah Montana fan that Woodstock was a unique and socially relevant experience. All you get in response is "But Hannah's so cool and so preeeeetty and has sold so many records." Obviously then she's just as good or better, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just a nostalgic old fart.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests