Get out of our RPG!

donkeys

I hate it when..

.

-The sole purpose of playing for many is confined to being at the high-end as fast as possible.

-Guilds are not guilds with like-minded individuals and friends but tools to advance your character as fast as possible.

-When MMO launch there is some sort of race going on I'm not aware off.

-Players are too busy leveling until dawn to acknowledge my existence or exchange a word with me.

I hate it when..

MMORPG are no longer RPG but e-peen contests.

Novusod

MMORPGs have had players like that since as long as I can remember. Even Eq1 and UO had end game rushers. If you don't like that kind of mindset just ignore them.  They aren't ruining your gameplay unless the develepers themselves cater exculsively to making the entire game just a rush to end game.

Moaky07

There will always be folks racing to be "first" in games. I can handle that.

 

Nekrataal

Originally posted by Novusod

MMORPGs have had players like that since as long as I can remember. Even Eq1 and UO had end game rushers. If you don't like that kind of mindset just ignore them.  They aren't ruining your gameplay unless the develepers themselves cater exculsively to making the entire game just a rush to end game.

And that is exactly what happened... so yes, those people have ruined gameplay for many of us.

Welcome to quest-O-rama where even a casual can get to end game in less than 3 months solo so he can take part in e-sport arena pvp or parade in his epic gear that wont be so epic next year for some obscure reason having to do with laziness & milking.

You can't even enjoy low/mid lvl content now has you lvl too freakin fast. There's no more epic quest chains that require some thinking & take times to accomplish as there's no point in making such a thing cuz by the end of it, the player has already out leveled that content. Dungeons that should have great lore & depth attached to them have become nothing more than pit stops for an army of alts.

Sorry, but you can't just ignore them...  

 

pierth

Originally posted by Nekrataal

Originally posted by Novusod

MMORPGs have had players like that since as long as I can remember. Even Eq1 and UO had end game rushers. If you don't like that kind of mindset just ignore them.  They aren't ruining your gameplay unless the develepers themselves cater exculsively to making the entire game just a rush to end game.

And that is exactly what happened... so yes, those people have ruined gameplay for many of us.

Welcome to quest-O-rama where even a casual can get to end game in less than 3 months solo so he can take part in e-sport arena pvp or parade in his epic gear that wont be so epic next year for some obscure reason having to do with laziness & milking.

You can't even enjoy low/mid lvl content now has you lvl too freakin fast. There's no more epic quest chains that require some thinking & take times to accomplish as there's no point in making such a thing cuz by the end of it, the player has already out leveled that content. Dungeons that should have great lore & depth attached to them have become nothing more than pit stops for an army of alts.

Sorry, but you can't just ignore them...  

 

I'll agree that it is more difficult to take it slowly these days, although it is worse in some games that others. I will throw out there that just because it is a quest driven game doesn't mean you can't take a slower path and grind to the top (if that's your thing). Getting caught up in the rush other players have for endgame can ruin your entire experience, so as was stated earlier take your time and enjoy the leveling while you can. Endgame will always be there. A lot of times (from what I've experienced) the journey is far greater than the destination. I tend to quit at endgame because it's not as fun for me as leveling was.

MumboJumbo

You are talking about 2 things: people and exponential levelling xp design.

Some people enjoy reaching end-game for achievement as an end initself. Others want to cut out the grind. Some do this by joining guilds to speed up levelling, others use bots or buy characters to get at the big carrot "End-Game" and avoid the big stick "Grind".

Here this blog is very revealing about the game design side.

liva98989

I agree, but even so when you reach cap you can always find something to do, you just have to look for it. (Roleplay. xD) But it's all a race.

chrisel

Originally posted by Novusod

MMORPGs have had players like that since as long as I can remember. Even Eq1 and UO had end game rushers. If you don't like that kind of mindset just ignore them.  They aren't ruining your gameplay unless the develepers themselves cater exculsively to making the entire game just a rush to end game.

 Which was the major reason why I left World of Warcraft; Say whatever you like, but that game is definately focusing upon doing things as fast as possible. I have hated the "first to" achievements since day 1. Whether its on skills or the levels on toons. I hate the very essence of it, it is game breaking and it is actually forcing players to rush the game. But then, are there any WoW players who know the meaning of 'MMO' in the first place?

UsulDaNeriak

Originally posted by Nekrataal

Originally posted by Novusod

MMORPGs have had players like that since as long as I can remember. Even Eq1 and UO had end game rushers. If you don't like that kind of mindset just ignore them.  They aren't ruining your gameplay unless the develepers themselves cater exculsively to making the entire game just a rush to end game.

And that is exactly what happened... so yes, those people have ruined gameplay for many of us.

 

QFT

this is what most MMOs are about these sad days. the devs started catering idiots in order to increase revenue with the masses. obviously the majority of mankind are idiots, which is even more sad. however, they ruined MMORPGs this way.

Paradoxy

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Novusod

MMORPGs have had players like that since as long as I can remember. Even Eq1 and UO had end game rushers. If you don't like that kind of mindset just ignore them.  They aren't ruining your gameplay unless the develepers themselves cater exculsively to making the entire game just a rush to end game.

 Which was the major reason why I left World of Warcraft; Say whatever you like, but that game is definately focusing upon doing things as fast as possible. I have hated the "first to" achievements since day 1. Whether its on skills or the levels on toons. I hate the very essence of it, it is game breaking and it is actually forcing players to rush the game. But then, are there any WoW players who know the meaning of 'MMO' in the first place?

Good job generalising there buddy. Throw some more blanket statements on entire WOW player base, really helps your argument.

Kyleran

Originally posted by donkeys

 

 

I hate it when..

.

-The sole purpose of playing for many is confined to being at the high-end as fast as possible.

Just human nature. If a game has levels that stand between start and experiencing the "end-game" content players are going to want to power through it.  Was true when I played DAOC so many years ago, still true today.  Blame the game design, not the gamer. 

-Guilds are not guilds with like-minded individuals and friends but tools to advance your character as fast as possible.

I've not seen this. The trend I've noticed is you have leveling guilds, usually of random folks who come and go until they reach the end game where they reform around either raiding, PVP or the like.  This actually makes sense, as most game content today is focused and your results turn out better if you are grouped with people who are catering to the mechanics, rather than the players themselves.

In EVE there are corporations who focus on mining, those who focus on mission running, others who are pirates, others who are mercenaries, and yet more that hold 0.0 space.  Of course there are also "Omni-corps" that try to do one, two or all of these, but they generally are less successful than those who specialize.

I will agree, the era of smaller guilds of friends is basically over, (not saying they still aren't out there, of course there are many) but they just harder to find as they're outnumbered by the specialty groups.

-When MMO launch there is some sort of race going on I'm not aware off.

You haven't been paying attention then. If its a PVP game (esp  a level based one) then people race to the top to be able to gank those beneath them.  PVE end game content like raiding also encourages a race to be first to master it, I recall being proud of my guild in WOW being 3rd on the server to figure out how to down Ragnaros in the molten core. (no one shared the knowledge back then, you figured it out for yourself)

-Players are too busy leveling until dawn to acknowledge my existence or exchange a word with me.

No, that's not true really, they were always busy leveling.  Its the game mechanics that have changed that are causing this issue.  With the elimination of static travel tools  (such as horses and boats), lack of downtime between fights (DAOC would make you sit up to 3 minutes to recover from a tough battle), no forced social interaction mechanics such as SWG's cantina's and medical facilities, auction houses that let you avoid bartering and several other key socialization mechanics players just don't have the time to talk. 

You basically log in and fight, fight, fight, with no stops.  Even WOW changed over the years. I recall in the Vanilla WOW days, players had to sit and rest, eating food or beverage to recover their health/mana.  I've recently returned (after 4 years) and started a warrior ( a class that was particularly torturous to play back in the day because of this) and with my new self healing powers after killing an opponent I almost never have to sit and rest.  So I never talk to my guild mates, I'm too busy fighting, or steering my mount somewhere, (the zepplin/boat rides are actually shorter now then before, and there's not talking on them either)

I hate it when..

MMORPG are no longer RPG but e-peen contests.

I will agree, MMORPG's are no longer virtual worlds to live in, with all the negative aspects (perhaps challenges is a better term)  to them which in the past were employed to artificially enourage players to band together and help one another.

Though  most don't believe it, EVE actually has one of the best player communities out there right now because its design encourages players to band together to survive and prosper in a harsh universe where everyone is, in fact, out to get them.

I rather suspect the same is true in Darkfall, you might think many of the folks you meet are jerks, but I assure you, within their own clan they are a tight bunch of folks who go out of their way to help their "team"

Random socialization with strangers in the virtual world is the mechanic that I think has disappeared, probably forever at this point, and that is the true loss that many folks don't even realize.  (and has been a topic on many other threads)

 

And don't forget, as often pointed out, those "other" players you don't like, they pay their subscription fee too and in the end that's all the developer is interested in, maximizing the number of paying customerss

Loke666

Originally posted by Paradoxy

Good job generalising there buddy. Throw some more blanket statements on entire WOW player base, really helps your argument.

Well. there is some merit to what he say, Wow and many other games have made leveling a joke that you rushes through. I wouldn't point out any game specific myself because most are about as bad as the next one but leveling has gone more to being a tutorial nowadays.

In the old days were leveling as important as gear. Now the games want you to enter the endgame as fast as possible and frankly does that that away the entire point of leveling. And you never stay that long in the same area either, you solo past 90% of the game in a week or 2 and that is annoying.

OP: There have always been players like that but now the game more or less want you to play like that, that is their main focus. Many people say that the game starts when you hit max level and it is getting more true every day.

I am not saying that you should have a hopeless grind and kill 5000 orcs to level to the next level but a bit more depth would be nice, or they might as well let everyone start out as max and skip the large content everyone just runs past anyways.

And what's up with 80 or 90 levels anyways? EQ2 have gotten more than twice the number of levels now and it still is faster to get to max now than in the early days. 20 levels is fine enough even if you always can give away a point or 2 for speccing as you pass through a level. But making more and more levels is kinda pointless, it is the time to get to max that matters. Only thing more levels do is that they make you change gear a little more.

Games today is a few weeks of leveling followed by 1-2 years of getting better gear. Then a new expansion hits making you to level up a few days and start from scratch with gear, there must be more fun we can do in a game besides that. The sandbox people might be right, we need something that gives the players more options.

Loke666

Originally posted by Kyleran

And don't forget, as often pointed out, those "other" players you don't like, they pay their subscription fee too and in the end that's all the developer is interested in, maximizing the number of paying customerss

Agreed, but the devs are making a mistake aiming for the same playerbase all of them. There should be more kinds of MMOs aimed for more people. Either you like "modern" MMOs (Wow, EQ2, LOTRO, AoC), free for all PvP sandboxes or Eve.

There is a lot more players they can get to play if they stop trying to take all Wows players when they make a new MMO.

inBOIL

Roleplaying example from one RPG.

-my gearscore is 5000

-my gearscore is 1000

-my gearscore is 2500

-my gearscore is 9000

Today we can measure your roleplaying skill,amazing.

Paradoxy

Originally posted by inBOIL

Roleplaying example from one RPG.

-my gearscore is 5000

-my gearscore is 1000

-my gearscore is 2500

-my gearscore is 9000

Today we can measure your roleplaying skill,amazing.

From days of EQ gear has been a big factor and always will be to drawn players in. Only difference is that players are geting more specific and crunch numbers with tools that were not available before. In the end its all about gear so not much has changed. not everyone plays MMO for same purpsoe or reason. Who are we to dictate anyone's fun?

inBOIL

Originally posted by Paradoxy

Originally posted by inBOIL

Roleplaying example from one RPG.

-my gearscore is 5000

-my gearscore is 1000

-my gearscore is 2500

-my gearscore is 9000

Today we can measure your roleplaying skill,amazing.

From days of EQ gear has been a big factor and always will be to drawn players in. Only difference is that players are geting more specific and crunch numbers with tools that were not available before. In the end its all about gear so not much has changed. not everyone plays MMO for same purpsoe or reason. Who are we to dictate anyone's fun?

Me thinks the question is ,is these kind of games roleplaying games at all?

Loke666

Originally posted by Paradoxy

From days of EQ gear has been a big factor and always will be to drawn players in. Only difference is that players are geting more specific and crunch numbers with tools that were not available before. In the end its all about gear so not much has changed. not everyone plays MMO for same purpsoe or reason. Who are we to dictate anyone's fun?

That is a half truth. EQ were originally also a lot about leveling. It actually took a effort to level up in games like EQ and M59.

They were also about gear but now they more or less cut the level thing and only went for gear.

Not that either is much of roleplaying anyways. Roleplaying is about telling a story through your characters eyes, no matter if you or someone else made it. The more you focus on gear the less people care about RPGing.

drake_hound

Originally posted by inBOIL

Roleplaying example from one RPG.

-my gearscore is 5000

-my gearscore is 1000

-my gearscore is 2500

-my gearscore is 9000

Today we can measure your roleplaying skill,amazing.

Ok I will bite and try to be as gentle as I can .

As a roleplayer i dont mind Gear Score , why ? Its good a measurement of self improvement .

If a roleplayer minds gear score , means they already fail in my eyes , to willing to participate in self improvement.

If a roleplayer doesn´t have a open mind and flexibility to adapt , It already leads to a stagnate roleplay session .

It leads to same old fashion , run around the thread mill ...

 

Gearscore/ Itemlevel gotten abused , same way achievement is , that People who dont really understand it .

Abuses it for idiotic goals , you dont need a gearscore of certain numbers to do things , Just people seek the easy way out.

Example , numbers are numbers , but are you willing to carry people ?

So a DPS average of 4k for a encounter , you willing to carry people with 2k ?

So you willing to prolong your suffering , and risk a wipe ? for totally random strangers ?

Yes i am willing to do that , and I did enough times , but once i have to carry out of 5 people 3 people .

The encounter simply becomes undoable , the enrage timer hits , the mana runs out , my cooldowns are gone .

 

Now example Roleplayers have there own means of recognising one and other example INFO descriptions .

So they create there own elitisme inside the genre .

Is that wrong too ?

Comnitus

We have replaced leveling with end-game grind, whether it be gear, some secondary measure (like Renown), or anything else.

Where is the problem, again? If you want to take forever to get to the top, play RuneScape.

Paradoxy

I guess everyone is going to hate GW2 a lot in that case. Considering leveling is even faster in that game. I personaly don't care for fast or slow leveling. For some people the journey is fun part for others the fun starts at lvl cap. I am somewhere in between. I am neither too fast or too slow.

Loke666

Originally posted by Comnitus

We have replaced leveling with end-game grind, whether it be gear, some secondary measure (like Renown), or anything else.

Where is the problem, again? If you want to take forever to get to the top, play RuneScape.

So you can either play some browser crap or do the same raids over and over a zillion times? Wow, you really now how to make people happy.

When you spend a lot of time leveling you actually get somewhere at least. And a new expansions doesn't make all your levels useless even if you might have to get a few more.

Xamdorb

Originally posted by Paradoxy

Originally posted by inBOIL

Roleplaying example from one RPG.

-my gearscore is 5000

-my gearscore is 1000

-my gearscore is 2500

-my gearscore is 9000

Today we can measure your roleplaying skill,amazing.

From days of EQ gear has been a big factor and always will be to drawn players in. Only difference is that players are geting more specific and crunch numbers with tools that were not available before. In the end its all about gear so not much has changed. not everyone plays MMO for same purpsoe or reason. Who are we to dictate anyone's fun?

Not all MMO's are about gear.  Pre-CU SWG wasn't.  It had a crafter based economy.  If you could save the credits, you could buy the best Composite Armour/T-21 Rifle/Acklay Power Hammer - whatever.  Craft results varied greatly depending on the materials used, crafters skill (and skilltapes), and experimentation used.  Everyone knew the best crafters on their particular server, they were just as big (if not bigger) celebrities than the top PvP players.  Sure there would be strange occasions when a ridiculous item would drop from a mob, for instance one of my guildies got an insane Mindfire Pike from some silly low-level mob on Tatooine.  But these drops were totally random and EXTREMELY rare.

 

AoC started out as a PvP focused game where gear meant very little indeed.  Fights would be won on player-skill alone.  Craig Morrison changed all that with patch 1.05 though. Changed it for the worse in my and most other PvP players minds.  Most AoC PvPers rate 1.04 as the height of the game, ever since it has been all downhill.  PvEers are delighted with the current state of the game though, why wouldn't they be?  The game is now following the WoW model of gear > all.  However, now the only servers with a decent population are PvE servers, PvP servers are total ghost-towns. 

 

Personally, I detest the whole gear dependancy, raid-based, endgame, endgame, endgame thing that has become  prevalent in most MMO's since the crapfest that is WoW was released.  Unfortunately, people like me appear to be in the minority.

Arcken

Id like to see game with no numbers, no stats, no spreadsheets and no power gamers.

Paradoxy

Originally posted by Xamdorb

Originally posted by Paradoxy

Originally posted by inBOIL

Roleplaying example from one RPG.

-my gearscore is 5000

-my gearscore is 1000

-my gearscore is 2500

-my gearscore is 9000

Today we can measure your roleplaying skill,amazing.

From days of EQ gear has been a big factor and always will be to drawn players in. Only difference is that players are geting more specific and crunch numbers with tools that were not available before. In the end its all about gear so not much has changed. not everyone plays MMO for same purpsoe or reason. Who are we to dictate anyone's fun?

Not all MMO's are about gear.  Pre-CU SWG wasn't.  It had a crafter based economy.  If you could save the credits, you could buy the best Composite Armour/T-21 Rifle/Acklay Power Hammer - whatever.  Craft results varied greatly depending on the materials used, crafters skill (and skilltapes), and experimentation used.  Everyone knew the best crafters on their particular server, they were just as big (if not bigger) celebrities than the top PvP players.  Sure there would be strange occasions when a ridiculous item would drop from a mob, for instance one of my guildies got an insane Mindfire Pike from some silly low-level mob on Tatooine.  But these drops were totally random and EXTREMELY rare.

 

AoC started out as a PvP focused game where gear meant very little indeed.  Fights would be won on player-skill alone.  Craig Morrison changed all that with patch 1.05 though. Changed it for the worse in my and most other PvP players minds.  Most AoC PvPers rate 1.04 as the height of the game, ever since it has been all downhill.  PvEers are delighted with the current state of the game though, why wouldn't they be?  The game is now following the WoW model of gear > all.  However, now the only servers with a decent population are PvE servers, PvP servers are total ghost-towns. 

 

Personally, I detest the whole gear dependancy, raid-based, endgame, endgame, endgame thing that has become  prevalent in most MMO's since the crapfest that is WoW was released.  Unfortunately, people like me appear to be in the minority.

Anarchy online was released before WOW so i disagree that all the end game grind became more prevalent during the days of WOW. I haven't grinded end game in any other MMO as much as i did in AO. So far in my experince if MMO has end game grind players are not happy and if there is no end game grind players are still not happy. it is just too damn hard to make everyone happy. So best thing to do is supply what public demands.

Xamdorb

Originally posted by Paradoxy

Originally posted by Xamdorb

Originally posted by Paradoxy

Originally posted by inBOIL

Roleplaying example from one RPG.

-my gearscore is 5000

-my gearscore is 1000

-my gearscore is 2500

-my gearscore is 9000

Today we can measure your roleplaying skill,amazing.

From days of EQ gear has been a big factor and always will be to drawn players in. Only difference is that players are geting more specific and crunch numbers with tools that were not available before. In the end its all about gear so not much has changed. not everyone plays MMO for same purpsoe or reason. Who are we to dictate anyone's fun?

Not all MMO's are about gear.  Pre-CU SWG wasn't.  It had a crafter based economy.  If you could save the credits, you could buy the best Composite Armour/T-21 Rifle/Acklay Power Hammer - whatever.  Craft results varied greatly depending on the materials used, crafters skill (and skilltapes), and experimentation used.  Everyone knew the best crafters on their particular server, they were just as big (if not bigger) celebrities than the top PvP players.  Sure there would be strange occasions when a ridiculous item would drop from a mob, for instance one of my guildies got an insane Mindfire Pike from some silly low-level mob on Tatooine.  But these drops were totally random and EXTREMELY rare.

 

AoC started out as a PvP focused game where gear meant very little indeed.  Fights would be won on player-skill alone.  Craig Morrison changed all that with patch 1.05 though. Changed it for the worse in my and most other PvP players minds.  Most AoC PvPers rate 1.04 as the height of the game, ever since it has been all downhill.  PvEers are delighted with the current state of the game though, why wouldn't they be?  The game is now following the WoW model of gear > all.  However, now the only servers with a decent population are PvE servers, PvP servers are total ghost-towns. 

 

Personally, I detest the whole gear dependancy, raid-based, endgame, endgame, endgame thing that has become  prevalent in most MMO's since the crapfest that is WoW was released.  Unfortunately, people like me appear to be in the minority.

Anarchy online was released before WOW so i disagree that all the end game grind became more prevalent during the days of WOW. I haven't grinded end game in any other MMO as much as i did in AO. So far in my experince if MMO has end game grind players are not happy and if there is no end game grind players are still not happy. it is just too damn hard to make everyone happy. So best thing to do is supply what public demands.

I don't know how you can say that with a straight face.  Before WoW we had choice in the MMO genre, since WoW almost every game that has released has followed that model.  Hell, even established games were revamped to be more like the almighty WoW.

 

Paradoxy

Originally posted by Xamdorb

Anarchy online was released before WOW so i disagree that all the end game grind became more prevalent during the days of WOW. I haven't grinded end game in any other MMO as much as i did in AO. So far in my experince if MMO has end game grind players are not happy and if there is no end game grind players are still not happy. it is just too damn hard to make everyone happy. So best thing to do is supply what public demands.

I don't know how you can say that with a straight face.  Before WoW we had choice in the MMO genre, since WoW almost every game that has released has followed that model.  Hell, even established games were revamped to be more like the almighty WoW.

 

i can say that with straight face because i played AO religiously for 6 years. Grind has always been there even before WOW. And as far as other MMO companies trying to model WOW,  whose fault is that?