you make the assumption that all ppl want to fly big ships o just fly ships in general
Well, I think most ppl understand that PvP is sort of the top of the food chain of Eve. Both for a lot of the players and for the majority of the economic product of Eve players. If you don't think so, then either you are mostly playing Eve in a single player bubble (ie., you are just a consumer) or you are contributing to it (by 'it', I mean the development, production or transport of products or services related to player-to-player combat which is by far the largest consumer of products in the Eve economy) and don't know it. In which case we'll just pat you on the head and send you back to your Factory, your Itty V or whatever AFK Mine-o-matic you fly. ;-)
As I quit EVE just prior to this change I've received several promotions tryig to encourage me to come back that use the skill removal as the enticement, so it obviously was felt to be a big barrier to more people playing.
In my case its not,once your characters cross the 50M SP barrier, what's a few million more points to re-invest?
Well for me it was a two-month advancement to the point where I can stop training my main and start skilling up an alt on the same account.
All the Eve proponents love to spit out the same old arguement. Pick a small ship and you are up and running fast. Riiiiight. So, the new Eve player spends a few weeks learning the game, playing PvE and getting his "core" skills mostly done for, say, a frigate or cruiser. He ventures out into lowsec for an exciting first taste of PvP. Soon enough, he is met by an opponent and still utterly raped. Why? Because a vet isn't going to usually PvP at such a pathetic level (namely T1 cruiser, etc.) unless he is wasting time or doing basically a kamikazee run for a bit of 'fun'. He is going to be in a T2 cruiser or above. Go look up the stats on a T2 something-or-other versus a T1. Now you are adding some serious train time to 'sit in' a T2 ship. Fine, add it to your nifty training planner. Oh, wait! You need to fit your T2 ship with T2 weapons or your range, tracking speed, damage, ammo is all subpar and each subpar aspect stacks up with the rest. Hmm, gotta add some more skills to handle those T2 weapons. Now your training planner bloats to months. Plenty of skills to train to boost every aspect of your ship, too! Speed, agility, shield capacity, shield regen, capacitor capacity, capacitor regen, armor resistances, etc. etc. etc. Many skills, at level V, is gonna tack on 25% to what it improves. Most T2 ships are built for a particular specialized 'role' and require another subset of skills to get rolling, too.
It is positively hilarious. You get the noobs (fresh meat) to join up with sweet words of "catching up" is unimportant, but then once they get in game and mention they are gonna buy a cruiser, you say "whoah, whoah! You can >sit< in the ship, but can you really >fly< it? Keep training first!"
I think the phrase 'catching up' is not correct. Most are just looking at how long it takes to get to SOME SEMBLANCE of equal equipment. God knows, they have a player skill deficit as well, so leaving such a character skill deficit as well is a bit difficult. Sure, the noob can hop in a T1 frigate and be 90% maxed out pretty well for that ship, but combining the fact that he has little player skill by comparison PLUS his T1 frig is no match for a T2 cruiser or BC leaves the above argument pretty hollow.
The Eve skill system is great for PvE but it's a real bitch for ppl who could not care less about PvE. They have no way to pass the time to get where they need to be.
Eve is a GREAT game, don't get me wrong. I just think if they could have come up with some way around this fundamental conundrum they would have a WoW-like following.
To put it bluntly -- the EVE community does NOT want a WoW sized game full of those with that kind of mindset.
You don't seem to understand how this game works so I will explain a bit.
PvE in EVE is about soloing. You can team up but most all aspects of this portion of the game are done by yourself.
PvP in EVE is about teaming up with others. If you start out trying to go it alone, you'll get slaughtered because the ones you'll end up facing will be far stronger -OR- they'll bring friends most of the time. Skills and experience allow players to compesate better for more showing up to attack them -- the "get out of here" factor (GTFO phrased 'politely').
The larger your team in PvP, the less skill is needed by the least skilled members. The smaller your team for PvP, the more skill you'll want from your members.
This does not mean that lower skilled folks don't go on "gang" level roams from larger corporations, it means that lower skilled members won't be invited into small corporations that focus on small gang PvP. The smaller "focused" groups don't run larger fleets -- the bigger groups do at times and that body count showing up can make a big difference in how you CAN form up gangs.
This is where things like RvB (a permanent "war" between 2 corporations) are popular and why Faction Warefare is also popular. You hook up with very large collections of other players and go out to fight other groups -- mostly filled with OTHER inexperienced players but led by more experienced team-leaders/Fleet Commanders.
etc...
So if someone joins EVE with the idea that they can "pwn faces!" solo -- they'll be in for a great deal of disappointment. If they play with the expectation of JOINING others for gang style warefare they can and will find teams to work with and can have a hell of a lot of fun.
In a nutshell: EVE's PvP game is one that pretty much REQUIRES you to be a social type of player. If you don't like hanging with groups -- find a different game or "park" for a year or 2 and still expect to get your butt shot off a great deal. Gangs eat soloists.
Well, I think most ppl understand that PvP is sort of the top of the food chain of Eve. [/b][/quote] the top pvp in eve is making pvp without shooting a single bullet or even having a active account
All the Eve proponents love to spit out the same old arguement. Pick a small ship and you are up and running fast. Riiiiight. So, the new Eve player spends a few weeks learning the game, playing PvE and getting his "core" skills mostly done for, say, a frigate or cruiser. He ventures out into lowsec for an exciting first taste of PvP. Soon enough, he is met by an opponent and still utterly raped. Why? Because a vet isn't going to usually PvP at such a pathetic level (namely T1 cruiser, etc.) unless he is wasting time or doing basically a kamikazee run for a bit of 'fun'. He is going to be in a T2 cruiser or above. Go look up the stats on a T2 something-or-other versus a T1. Now you are adding some serious train time to 'sit in' a T2 ship. Fine, add it to your nifty training planner. Oh, wait! You need to fit your T2 ship with T2 weapons or your range, tracking speed, damage, ammo is all subpar and each subpar aspect stacks up with the rest. Hmm, gotta add some more skills to handle those T2 weapons. Now your training planner bloats to months. Plenty of skills to train to boost every aspect of your ship, too! Speed, agility, shield capacity, shield regen, capacitor capacity, capacitor regen, armor resistances, etc. etc. etc. Many skills, at level V, is gonna tack on 25% to what it improves. Most T2 ships are built for a particular specialized 'role' and require another subset of skills to get rolling, too.
It is positively hilarious. You get the noobs (fresh meat) to join up with sweet words of "catching up" is unimportant, but then once they get in game and mention they are gonna buy a cruiser, you say "whoah, whoah! You can >sit< in the ship, but can you really >fly< it? Keep training first!"
I think the phrase 'catching up' is not correct. Most are just looking at how long it takes to get to SOME SEMBLANCE of equal equipment. God knows, they have a player skill deficit as well, so leaving such a character skill deficit as well is a bit difficult. Sure, the noob can hop in a T1 frigate and be 90% maxed out pretty well for that ship, but combining the fact that he has little player skill by comparison PLUS his T1 frig is no match for a T2 cruiser or BC leaves the above argument pretty hollow.
The Eve skill system is great for PvE but it's a real bitch for ppl who could not care less about PvE. They have no way to pass the time to get where they need to be.
Eve is a GREAT game, don't get me wrong. I just think if they could have come up with some way around this fundamental conundrum they would have a WoW-like following.
To put it bluntly -- the EVE community does NOT want a WoW sized game full of those with that kind of mindset.
You don't seem to understand how this game works so I will explain a bit.
PvE in EVE is about soloing. You can team up but most all aspects of this portion of the game are done by yourself.
PvP in EVE is about teaming up with others. If you start out trying to go it alone, you'll get slaughtered because the ones you'll end up facing will be far stronger -OR- they'll bring friends most of the time. Skills and experience allow players to compesate better for more showing up to attack them -- the "get out of here" factor (GTFO phrased 'politely').
The larger your team in PvP, the less skill is needed by the least skilled members. The smaller your team for PvP, the more skill you'll want from your members.
This does not mean that lower skilled folks don't go on "gang" level roams from larger corporations, it means that lower skilled members won't be invited into small corporations that focus on small gang PvP. The smaller "focused" groups don't run larger fleets -- the bigger groups do at times and that body count showing up can make a big difference in how you CAN form up gangs.
This is where things like RvB (a permanent "war" between 2 corporations) are popular and why Faction Warefare is also popular. You hook up with very large collections of other players and go out to fight other groups -- mostly filled with OTHER inexperienced players but led by more experienced team-leaders/Fleet Commanders.
etc...
So if someone joins EVE with the idea that they can "pwn faces!" solo -- they'll be in for a great deal of disappointment. If they play with the expectation of JOINING others for gang style warefare they can and will find teams to work with and can have a hell of a lot of fun.
In a nutshell: EVE's PvP game is one that pretty much REQUIRES you to be a social type of player. If you don't like hanging with groups -- find a different game or "park" for a year or 2 and still expect to get your butt shot off a great deal. Gangs eat soloists.
I understand quite well; thank you. I did plenty of both PvE (trade, a bit of missioning, courier, manufacturing, etc.) and PvP (zerosec and lowsec). I have helped run corps in both high, low and zero sec. I ran mining ops, FC'd in zerosec, built up trade networks, etc. I never said ppl need to "pwn face" to be happy. Just have some semblence of effectiveness. The counter-argument that I think it needs to be like World of Warcraft is old, over-used and mentally weak. If you disagree with what I said, come up with logically structured arguments; not a broad insult. The fact of the matter is that you are going to get 'shelved' as cannon fodder tacklers (of which are likely to be shot down at the onset of combat) or an adjacent system scout in team PvP until you have at least 4~6 months of training. Even more so, the smaller the team. Likewise, I never stated anything about social requirements. You will want to be social for certain PvE stuff as well. If you are not familiar with it; it's not my concern. There are plenty of ppl that solo PvP in lowsec as well.
Your entire argument is composed of this:
<Bland WoW insult>
<Irrelevant and incorrect assumptions about social requirements>
<Claims that I stated everyone expects to "pwn face" solo and from day one; also incorrect>
<rehash of incorrect assumptions about social requirements>
The entire PURPOSE of my post is to make ppl understand what they can EXPECT. Not a bitch session to try to get it changed. I like the way Eve is; I just don't think that full disclosure is such a bad idea, either.
Learning skills were the dumbest design choice I saw in EvE when I played it. And in the top 10 list for dumbest design choices in all the MMOs I've played.
0, still no intention of returning to EvE.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Comments
Well, I think most ppl understand that PvP is sort of the top of the food chain of Eve. Both for a lot of the players and for the majority of the economic product of Eve players. If you don't think so, then either you are mostly playing Eve in a single player bubble (ie., you are just a consumer) or you are contributing to it (by 'it', I mean the development, production or transport of products or services related to player-to-player combat which is by far the largest consumer of products in the Eve economy) and don't know it. In which case we'll just pat you on the head and send you back to your Factory, your Itty V or whatever AFK Mine-o-matic you fly. ;-)
Well for me it was a two-month advancement to the point where I can stop training my main and start skilling up an alt on the same account.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
To put it bluntly -- the EVE community does NOT want a WoW sized game full of those with that kind of mindset.
You don't seem to understand how this game works so I will explain a bit.
PvE in EVE is about soloing. You can team up but most all aspects of this portion of the game are done by yourself.
PvP in EVE is about teaming up with others. If you start out trying to go it alone, you'll get slaughtered because the ones you'll end up facing will be far stronger -OR- they'll bring friends most of the time. Skills and experience allow players to compesate better for more showing up to attack them -- the "get out of here" factor (GTFO phrased 'politely').
The larger your team in PvP, the less skill is needed by the least skilled members. The smaller your team for PvP, the more skill you'll want from your members.
This does not mean that lower skilled folks don't go on "gang" level roams from larger corporations, it means that lower skilled members won't be invited into small corporations that focus on small gang PvP. The smaller "focused" groups don't run larger fleets -- the bigger groups do at times and that body count showing up can make a big difference in how you CAN form up gangs.
This is where things like RvB (a permanent "war" between 2 corporations) are popular and why Faction Warefare is also popular. You hook up with very large collections of other players and go out to fight other groups -- mostly filled with OTHER inexperienced players but led by more experienced team-leaders/Fleet Commanders.
etc...
So if someone joins EVE with the idea that they can "pwn faces!" solo -- they'll be in for a great deal of disappointment. If they play with the expectation of JOINING others for gang style warefare they can and will find teams to work with and can have a hell of a lot of fun.
In a nutshell: EVE's PvP game is one that pretty much REQUIRES you to be a social type of player. If you don't like hanging with groups -- find a different game or "park" for a year or 2 and still expect to get your butt shot off a great deal. Gangs eat soloists.
[quote]Originally posted by WizardBlack
Well, I think most ppl understand that PvP is sort of the top of the food chain of Eve.
[/b][/quote]
the top pvp in eve is making pvp without shooting a single bullet or even having a active account
BestSigEver :P
I understand quite well; thank you. I did plenty of both PvE (trade, a bit of missioning, courier, manufacturing, etc.) and PvP (zerosec and lowsec). I have helped run corps in both high, low and zero sec. I ran mining ops, FC'd in zerosec, built up trade networks, etc. I never said ppl need to "pwn face" to be happy. Just have some semblence of effectiveness. The counter-argument that I think it needs to be like World of Warcraft is old, over-used and mentally weak. If you disagree with what I said, come up with logically structured arguments; not a broad insult. The fact of the matter is that you are going to get 'shelved' as cannon fodder tacklers (of which are likely to be shot down at the onset of combat) or an adjacent system scout in team PvP until you have at least 4~6 months of training. Even more so, the smaller the team. Likewise, I never stated anything about social requirements. You will want to be social for certain PvE stuff as well. If you are not familiar with it; it's not my concern. There are plenty of ppl that solo PvP in lowsec as well.
Your entire argument is composed of this:
<Bland WoW insult>
<Irrelevant and incorrect assumptions about social requirements>
<Claims that I stated everyone expects to "pwn face" solo and from day one; also incorrect>
<rehash of incorrect assumptions about social requirements>
The entire PURPOSE of my post is to make ppl understand what they can EXPECT. Not a bitch session to try to get it changed. I like the way Eve is; I just don't think that full disclosure is such a bad idea, either.
Learning skills were the dumbest design choice I saw in EvE when I played it. And in the top 10 list for dumbest design choices in all the MMOs I've played.
0, still no intention of returning to EvE.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."