Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Can A Niche MMO Succeed?
Big_Data
Member UncommonPosts: 48
TL; DR
Is there a niche big enough to build a successful MMO around, or should we be destined to see release after release of swords and sorcery, quest based and casual focused MMO?
What defines successful?
A successful MMO is one that has enough subscribers to keep the game running, while turning a profit. Obviously, games that are forced to close like Tabula Rasa and Matrix Online were not successful, while games ranging from Warcraft to Age of Conan are.
What is a Warcraft clone?
Often used as the ultimate negative review of an MMO, citing a game as a WoW-Clone shouldn[object Window]t mean that the game is bad (Warcraft is many things, but a bad game it is not), WoW-Clone should mean that the game offers the gamer little to nothing that Warcraft does not already offer.
So why clone Warcraft?
From a development strategy it seems to be the safer bet; offer something that resides in the players comfort zone of familiarity, but offers one or two new things. Come play our MMO, it is just like Warcraft, but it has better [insert mechanic here]. Being the first on the market with Warcraft + better graphics or Warcraft + better PVP should be a slam dunk, right?
Why isn[object Window]t it a slam dunk?
Because developers fail to take into account the substantial emotional, physical and time investment we put into our MMO characters. To pry folks away from the 30+ days of game time, social networks and vault of gold you need to offer something really different. The decision is mot between WoW+graphics and WoW, but WoW+Graphics and WoW+my time investment.
A better strategy.
MMO developers should be looking at what the current MMO ecosystem is, and figuring out what isn[object Window]t there. Figure out which niche is not being served, and make a game as polished as WoW, but serving a totally different market.
EVE seems to be the most successful at this, as it caters to both the space combat niche, and the skill advancement niche.
Fallen Earth caters to the post-apocalyptic folks.
Age of Conan wanted to be the mature MMO.
Vanguard wanted to offer a non-instanced, less forgiving playstyle.
The Old Republic wants to be the first with fully voiced quests. Also: Star Wars.
There are numerous niches that are simply being ignored right now (wtf no steampunk?), and no one seems in a hurry to develop something to fill that void.
Is the fear that there are not enough MMO players to fill a niche?
This is where I think the debate is. If we conclude that there are 300,000 people willing to pay and play an MMO that is a theme park, but in a steampunk environment, would you not try to make that game?
But, if we find that there are only 30 (31 if you include me) that would play, then you would not make it.
So, MMORPG readers, do you think there is a niche big enough to build a successful MMO around, or should we be destined to see release after release of swords and sorcery, quest based and casual focused MMO.
[edit] wtf formatting?
Comments
Let's hear your idea.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
Interesting topic... and I'd say "cyberpunk" just like shadowrun would be a perfect niche.
We don't have any good games in that genre. Plus, Sci-Fi is liked by many people!
Of course a niche MMO can succeed. Global Agenda (FPS MMO) is trucking along just fine without a subscription. It just has to be done well. "Done well" includes the marketing, customer service and billing system in addition to just writing a decent game.
Personally, I'd like to see a bunch of smaller, better done games. Some variety would be really good.
My picks for subject matter would be:
1) Old West or Wild, Wild West - there's just so many ways you could go with this. Authentic 1890's life, Steam Punk/Chinese Culture/Native American Culture...and so on.
2) Zombies - there are not enough zombies, which is weird; you'd think they'd spread like a plague. You could do before, during and after zombie apocalypse scenarios. Again, endless.
3) Urban Fantasy - Harry Dresden or 'Nightside' type stuff. The Secret World and CCP's World of Darkness are going there and I think they fit into the Urban Fantasy category nicely.
That's about it. I mean you could go for Ancient Egypt or Ancient Sumeria or the Aztecs, stuff like that, but I don't think there's enough interest in it. You'd either be as historically accurate as you could and nobody would play, or it would just be an Egyptian or Aztec skin over the typical fantasy game.
*edit* I'm a little afraid the Urban Fantasy thing is getting played out in books and television. We're getting too much of it in our daily lives. Of course, that might be why it would make for a successful game genre or niche.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Successful as in profitable venture? its possible but very hard to pull off. Its called a niche MMO for a reason.
Who could have thought that WOW could bring super power like USA to its knees?
Originally posted by Arcken
To put it in a nutshell, our society is about to hit the fan, grades are dropping, obesity is going up,childhood the USA is going to lose its super power status before too long, but hey, as long as we have a cheap method to babysit our kids, all will be well no?
Im picking on WoW btw because its the beast that made all of this possible
There's a huge niche... the problem is there are no good games other than WoW for players to play..
https://albiononline.com/?ref=7MN1FPEZ82
I'll split the gold with you.
Plenty of niche games Darkfall, MO, Fallen Earth, Earthrise (releasing Feb 2011), Ryzom, Eve for few examples. They all can't be bad.
Who could have thought that WOW could bring super power like USA to its knees?
Originally posted by Arcken
To put it in a nutshell, our society is about to hit the fan, grades are dropping, obesity is going up,childhood the USA is going to lose its super power status before too long, but hey, as long as we have a cheap method to babysit our kids, all will be well no?
Im picking on WoW btw because its the beast that made all of this possible
Niche doesn't have to mean small. It certainly means smaller than what it possible at the high end (that being 12 million subscribers or so). But, I think we can all agree that you don't need 12m subs to turn a profit, and keep supplying new content.
EverQuest had, what, 200,000?
To me niche can mean both environment (space, fantasy, cyberpunk, etc.) or mechanics (FPS, offline skill advancement, no instances, etc.)
Frankly, I think you could select just about any enviroment that isn[object Window]t the classic sword & sorcery, and if the game is put together well, it would be successful.
Atlantic to me is very Niche and it does very well.
They are not all bad. EVE is probably the best example of an MMO that offers something that is not WoW (space, skill advancement, offline advancement, etc.). Darkfall is similar, but in a fantasy setting. I use Fallen Earth as an example in my initial post as well.
The discussion is less about games being bad, but more about games needing to have the polish of WoW to succeed, but also needing to offer something different.
Fallen Earth and Vanguard I think are great examples of this; both offer very different games from each other, and from WoW, but both are not as polished as WoW.
I think my frustration is in seeing large budgets being put to creating more of what we already have access to, instead of it being spent on something new.
[edit] wtf formatting again.
There might be over 100 unknown mmo's in the making as we speak, we do know about 25-50 of them... MMO's dont have a niche, they got a "specality" a "theme" anyting not designed for casual players (the bigest market) is called a niche. I guess that anyting above a Kia is a niche car. that sony is for the casual tv vierwer adn that samsung is a niche.
a Niche is someting a very small group of people enjoy. however if there is one giant on the market and all else use the same size player base (50-500k) then its not a niche.
Games that live on fan are a niche game. whit that I mean games that long have bin forgotten but still live on by fanbase player base. exsample being UO.
now before this tunrs into a total "what is niche" discusion. its my personal view on it, you cant change that. be free to use the word niche for games smaller then WoW tho.. not bothering me
Oh yea, a game only needs 1000-5000 players to be succesfull if your dev cost is low. if you can get your dev cost back , keep a server running on player money and are able to pay your staff , self - your game is succesfull.
Its possible, as there are plenty of niche games out now that are doing fine, but IMO a lot of it has to do with the community that gets attached to the game and whether they are helpful and perceived as a common mature group or a bunch of unhelpful arrogant asses that have nothing better to do than to gank. A good community doesn't mean success, but it is a huge factor in my eyes. I think its the helpful community that kept Vanguard going this long. I have not played that in ages but I remember it was one of the most helpful communities I was ever a part of.
There Is Always Hope!
Yes. Just don't spend a lot making it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Have you tried any? They really are bad... except for EVE.
https://albiononline.com/?ref=7MN1FPEZ82
I'll split the gold with you.
I think there is quite a bit of demand for some smaller games that offer something really different. I was following a couple of them with interest but none of the ones that caught my eye have made it to market. Adellion was one:
http://www.adellion.com/
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I never hated WoW for what IT did to MMO's, but what other companies have done in response to WoW (i.e. AAA WoW-clones). Blizzard brought MMO's into the mainstream, and that should have led to a huge diversity of niche games coming from AAA companies IMO. We are finally starting to see this happen from a lot of smaller companies, and that is great. Call me shallow if you like, but I want to see a niche game with the polish of WoW, and IMO (with the possible exception of EVE) that doesn't exist, and it should. There is no reason a AAA niche game (as long as its not too narrowly focused) cannot garner 500,000 subs. A far cry from "WoW-killer", but who cares? It would still be a hugely profitable enterprise. And for now, that is the best way for a AAA to make the most for their MMO, don't go head to head with WoW, go around them and tap into the MMO demographic that doesn't like WoW. For a true niche game to have a lot of success, they are going to have to be in the same league as WoW with their spit and polish though, without losing sight of their core game concepts, and that is hard.
Not sure if SWTOR can be considered niche or not, but I guess we'll see in a little while (hopefully). White Wolf's WoD is a huge potential step in that direction, if it comes to pass. It'll be different than anything else out there, both in setting and game mechanics, and it'll be interesting to see how CCP/WW translates that IP into an MMO.
White Wolf's World of Darkness is being made by CCP (the creators of EVE Online). That's a niche. Vampires/Horror MMORPGs. That will be interesting.
Bad news is, it's going to be awhile to play it.
Nice post OP.
They can survive fine, if:
- It is a quality tittle from the start and it is fun to play.
-Devs (and everyone involved) have a realistic idea of the needed $ to run the project, and earn some profit, from the start and they meet them.
Sadly, they always miss the quality factor or some high up involved turn greedy: "Hey! we have 200.000 customers (I drive an Audi) when we could have millions! (I could use a Ferrari)" and break their own game with assissine patches or over hyped missing features to fish more customers.
Mmorpg companies, repeat like a mantra:
-Quality + fun = Happy customer.
-Customers want WoW alternatives, not face lifted clones (with less features and content I must add).
-Instead of playing a bad clone players will stick to the original.
-12 million (or whatever numbers they are) incoming fees/subs each month is not going to happen to my game, ever.
Have you tried any? They really are bad... except for EVE.
Of those in the list, Darkfall & Fallen Earth are both decent games. They may or may not be a particular player's cup of tea, but they are decent games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Puzzle Pirates, EVE Online, Dragon Saga (Dragonica), BattleSwarm, Saga Online, Beyond Protocol, World of Pirates, and Dark Wind: War on Wheels are the ones I can think of right off the bat that are niche and successful. Of course, many here are going to have a problem with each one as to why they aren't a REAL MMO or why they aren't successful by their personal metric, but then that brings us back to part of the problem why we can't move away from level-based class-restricted quest-oriented fantasy MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Darkfall Online is niche for full pvp lovers. I'd say it's pretty damn successful with the amount of new players I see coming in everyday. Check out darkfallreview.com for a nice review and a cool video of the pvp action.
I say yes, Look at fallen earth, very small dev team and they are doing a execellent job with what they have. ALot of these niche mmorpgs are better than more mainstream ones. They just lack the reconition they deserve.
"An MMORPG could be completely diffirent from WoW. Just look at games like Dofus, Wizard101 or EVE. But as it is, most of the Western MMOs are trying to succeed by out-WoWing WoW. It's like an army of 10 sports games made about same sports, and barely none about other sports. WoW clone is an accurate description of those games, it manages to convey much information with only two words."
-Poster on mmorpg.com
Rift: World of Warcraft clone #9321 Nothing special to see here move along.
Many niche games are successful.
However, most people determine successful as either close to as large of a subscription base as wow or better.
Currently playing perpetuum, which is as niche as they get right now. It targets the most successful niche game, EVE. For like 10 hungarian dudes, they did a pretty solid job launching a game that wasnt a crash and burn launch filled with hype and dissapointment. They deliverd what they promised, and it run smoother than most big budget games at launch.
I also think Darfall is a pretty successful niche game, for all its been though since what, 2000 when they started hyping it as the greates game to ever grace the face of earth, it seems to be on the right path, has a nice following, and if rebranded as a PVE game, with full loot FFA PVP, could be a quite populair game. IMO Darkfall has by far the best leveling and progression system for a sandbox, however its execution does need work, its a long haul game so dont expect to do anything great for a long time.
Honestly i think you might have bette success finding niche games that HAVENT succeeded, now that i think about it. Hell now that i think of it, what game isnt a niche game? Even wow.
Perhaps you meant " Can a mmorpg from a smaller and independent company succeed?"
First off if I enjoy the game - note enjoy not talking about "fun" (cause that means different things to different people) - its a success for me. Darkfall was till they dumbed it down, right now (longterm progression dead, offline skilling) its just a shallow of itself.
A MMO doesn[object Window]t need to raise unrealistic subnumbers, Ultima Online had about 75k and it was pretty succesful. In this day and age with the overhelming of dumbed down easymode games one can think that niche games are having a better chance to succeed ->loyal player base if done right.
Take Everquest update the graphics, add some polish and leave the rest o the game alone you[object Window]ll end up with more subs than Everquest 2 ever had easily! Also you[object Window]ll get a playerbase that won[object Window]t jump on the next overhyped pr[object Window]ed to death thing (such as ToR, GW 2).
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
The graphics must be on par with the best looking FPS game three years ago or don't bother.
Interesting how EVE is considered niche, when it started off several years ago as such, but brought some of the best dynamic and organic robust game-play and completeness of content to the market, it flourished and now it bests most AAA Mainstream mmo's on consistently sustained subscribership.
I guess it makes the question of the OT a moot one, if a studio like CCP understands the afformentioned..