Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
How is max level theme park-play different from a sandbox game?
Qazz
Member Posts: 577
For example, you've hit level cap in WoW. You can now do anything you want to do. Explore, craft, do any dungeon, farm, cook, PvP...anything you want to do, anywhere in the world. Nobody telling you what you can and cannot do.
How is this different from a sandbox game once you've at level cap?
Comments
Can you make a difference in the world?
That's what separates a sandbox from a themepark. The players can change how the game is played. Nothing you do in WoW will change anything. They have had certain things where guilds can unlock certain merchants and what not, but that's not what I mean. You can also have people remember you, and know you. But that doesn't change anything. It doesn't change how the general player plays the game.
Interestingly, you also have the option to do all of these things before max level. You just have a progressively narrower range of zones to do it in, the closer you get to level 1.
(FarReach hits on the main difference, really.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
nvm
Currently Playing Path of Exile
First, you can only explore an area once.. It's kinda hard to reach end game in WoW without having most of the exploration achievement done.. (normally) Now, as for the crafting.. When it comes to sandbox play such as original SWG, crafting was the primary profession to obtain items in the game.. Far different then the loot system that themepark games seem to enjoy.. Do any dungeon? I did Deadmines many times over with my lvl 80 toon powerleveling friends alts, that is something I would not want to subscribe to do as fun.. The biggest difference between sandbox play and themepark is one dictates to you what you'll be doing, the other leaves that up to you..
Sandbox games are like spending vacation on the beach.. You choose what to do and when, problem is.. Many people have little sense of imagination and ability to generate activities for themselves and others.. Why does one play computer games online instead of actually going outside with friends and actually playing a sim face to face... Maybe because in real life, people just arent' that creative.. Sandbox games only survive if the community is immaginative to created their OWN fun.. No Dev artificially hold your hand with suggestions such as "bg's", "questlines" etc etc.. This is not to say that bg or quest shouldn't have a life in a sandbox game, becasue in my opinion they should.. TO A POINT.. Quest in a sandbox should be epic or repeatable task with a purpose, not used as a breadcrumb mechanic that themepark games use them for..
In any case, a sandbox is just only a sandbox unless you build your own fun, or like many you can just look at it, do nothing, and say "this sucks, im bored".. When growing up, I loved building my own fun.. I made forts with whatever I had, built roads, etc etc.. Surprising what you can do with a shovel in the dirt, or chalk on the driveway.. I honestly believe the new generations are lacking the experience and fun of sandboxing.. Until one can learn to created their own fun OFFLINE, a computer mmo isnt' going to help you..
the beauty of endgame sandbox is that you see the virtual world change based on the players not the devs adding new dungeons.
think about it this way; imagine if all the changes that blizz made to azeroth in cata were done by players instead... over the course of several years and countless battles. and on every server, the landscape was different. and the stories behind how these changes occurred would be personal and unique to each server. youd know who was involved when southshore fell, you were there when an alliance guild set up a warzone near the crossroads
Using this logic, it shows why 'sandbox' games have little mass appeal and why there aren't many being made.
Not many MMO players are willing to 'make their own fun' = Sandbox games are niche = Not many companies are willing to invest = Not many games comes out.
It is kind of a self feeding loop I think.
The 'you have to create your own fun' mechanic has been used successfully (in a commercial sense) in single player though, Elder Scroll/Gothic series in particular. (I haven't tried Gothic3/4 but I can't imagine them suddenly changing focus)
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Did you ever played a sandbox without leveling system to ask the question? I mean its obvious when you first go outside of town and have your fisrt encounter, you wouldn't even have to ask the question in a forum if you ever tryed one. Mob don't have level they are weak and strong mobs, thats all, so the entire map is still valid for you, its not like you are going to travel in noob zones or whatever, it feel like a world and not a stupid game. And this is the most obvious stuff; i could make a very long list of all the other things that change radically, but really you'd better go play one of those game maybe it would be easier for you to understand than reading an essais.
Other than to bash the OP for asking a question in a forum (OMG! how dare he!) your post has 2 points.
1. "The entire map is valid" -I'm assuming this means the game doesn't stop you from travelling from one area to another even though you aren't level XYZ. If that's the case, WoW doesn't stop you either. You might (more likely will) die a lot though.
2. 'It feel like a world and not a stupid game' - which is subjective. I think WoW immersion is second to none. Only other one I can think of is Elder3 Morrowind. But that's just my opinion as it is subjective.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Exactly.. It would of been more rewarding in my opinion for players to create their own Cataclysm (with a lil control by the devs so it's not abused).. Like WG for example.. Let it be a 24/7 zone of PvP with a purpose.. Every 2.5 hours it resets for a new battle.. INSTEAD of resetting, the winning side of the battle now has 2 hours to rebuild their walls and towers.. Failure to do so means you have a lame duck fort wide open for take over.. Give the players the ability to reconstruct those walls and towers, while the losing side might do everything they can to keep that from happening.. NOW you have a zone that is PvP with a purpose 24/7.. I guess the sad part is.. IF it's done right, the NEW Wintergrasp would grab most of the attention of the PvPer's and BG's would become ghost zones with long queue times.. It could be like a never ending AV battleground of endless fighting.. Add more PvP quest to the zone for both the winning and losing sides.. Add more PvP item rewards.. Now that I would enjoy..
Theme park game takes you on rails from point a to point b to point c..you go where rails take you to and do whats open on each point
sandbox the game just opens the gate for you and you're free to roam the whole park as you please.
Technically - none.
The difference though, is the amount of past level cap content represents. In 'themepark' games it is like 10% of the content, in 'sandbox' it's 100%.
That is why there is no such thing as 'sandbox'/'themepark' features, it is a matter of game design.
It's my right to feel his question to be not very good as much as it is your right to feel my response to be stupid. But as i said just go play one of those game because the responses are obvious, there is no need for argumentation or even discussion about this. Now you could discuss or argument what system is better in which domain. If you want a valid discussion of something, look at it and analyse it first, then discuss, not the other way around.
And no it is not subjective at all it is very objective in fact, because it depend on the game and not on the player.
Also as i stated you could make a very long list of obvious things, just puting 2 of the most obvious (but you still can gasp and have to argument it right) won't help the op if he never tryed any of those game. You better, just like the op, go play one of these game rather than argument over a shallow discussion since you never experimented those, you just talk and talk, without any concrete experience backing it up. So if you need material, go grab it, some games still are sandbox without leveling, so go try them, it would better for everyone.
Now i would love to talk with you about difficulty over experience stage in usual mmorpg all you want, that would be a valid discussion to have.
I would love to know how a phrase 'something feel like something' is not subjective.
For your information I have tried them. One of them is called Dwarf Fortress. Probably the most sandbox game I ever played.
Eve-Online is considered THE sandbox game for many posters in this forum, but even Eve has levels (or skills they call it). So not sure where this 'sandbox' and 'level' is coming from? ?_?
Sandbox doesn't mean lack of levels.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Sorry but I dont call EVE sandbox, I dont even call Darkfall sandbox. Just because it has FFA PvP doesnt make it a sandbox.
To the OP.
My favourite game SWG is more sandbox than the games I mentioned above IN MY OPINION. Its a world that you can explore and socialise in, have your own house, build and craft things.
Altough PVP wasnt mandetory I always had it on and when I went to a cantina to hang out with my friends sometimes I suddenly had to run for my life because a group of rebels were storming in, or a bounty hunter
Not gonna bore you with all my adventures but I think it comes down to this: In a sandbox you have the tools to create your own fun and not rely on developers to make it for you.
Lets take WoW at max level, all you do is finish the raid content and then you ''finished'' the game and wait for the next expansion.
JUST MY OPINION.
Edit: Sandbox has nothing to do with levels. A good sandbox has content troughout the game, if you want to stay lvl1 you can and still enjoy th game. Because it has no ending.
In WoW you cant, you have to follow the ''rollercoaster''.
Can I form a Thieves Guild and make my endgame about stealing from the rich and giving to the poor? Can I pick pocket players House Keys, break into their houses and burglarize all of their treasures? Can I set up ambushes and choke points to threaten traveling players who come across us to "pay up, or else..."? Can I make my entire living stealing things from other players (gear, gold, houses, materials, etc)?
No?
Well, can I decide to create a Merchant Shop and become the best crafter in all the lands? Where people come for miles just to enter my store and buy my goods that no one can get anywhere else? Can I build such a good reputation that I am considered the best crafter on the entire server? Can I craft all day in my store (that I built) and service customers with my highly desired unique items?
No?
Perhaps, I can decide not to be an adventurer at all? Never once stepping foot into a dungeon. Just a normal Joe who wants to settle down somewhere in the world and build my palace? Can I scout for days for the perfect location to build my house? And then, when I find it, can I spend my entire existence building my dream house accordingly to my ideas and desires? Can I contract other crafters to come and build my kingdom? Can I build and build and build until my house becomes a castle which becomes a town which becomes a city?
No?
Hmm, can I be a brave and wandering hunter that goes out and searches for mysteries and treasure? Can I stumble upon a hidden race that needs to be freed? And when they are freed, after much work and cooperation from the community, this discovery opens up an entirely new playable race for players to play?
No?
Dang...seems like your example (or any other theme park) has alot of differences from a sandbox. Btw, before someone says "no game has that"....those examples where all in actual past sandboxy MMOs.
Actually on WoW the system WILL tell you what you can do how to do it. Everything else, well, you can't. For instance, you can't switch sides (or make your own faction, or just take on the whole world). You can't claim a land. You can't build an outpost (castle, city or whatever). You can't trade exotic goods from one region to another (actually, you can't trade 99% of valuable items as they are BoP). You can't start a new profession or learn to use other skills and weapons. And many many other things you usually can do on sandbox games.
The differance is that in a sandbox game its more of a Toolbox idea the game makers give you the tools to make your own gameplay with Themepark mmo's there are to many limitations
You just blew my mind...
Back to point. He does have quite a bit of a point. When I played darkfall, which I'm sure is considered a sandbox game, and then played wow a little. I remember thinking to myself, well when I'm this level I'll be able to do all these cool new things... but once i got to "that level" there was always something saying ME NEXT! ME NEXT. For example.. quests would turn to dungeons dungeons would turn into heroics, and heroics would turn into raids, and then raids basically turn into the gear grind.
But, when I played darkfall there actually wasn't much of a difference, there was all the abilities/spells/stats I needed to get, all the armor I needed to collect and stockpile. But I clearly see a similarity, levels/gear in wow = stats/spells in Darkfall. Armor, although, since it was FFA loot mechanic type game in it's self, which i myself think has nothing to do with being a sandbox or not, same with the first person targeting system, but thats for a different subject, armor is a new type of mechanic that I think owes it's roots to being FFA loot, and nothing about sandbox, so there for its kind of irrelevant.
Now, for why I just said that. levels and gear are equal to stats and spells for 1 reason, its a grind, where you kill lots of things, over and over and over and over, don't deny it, you've killed a lot of shit in both games, and in both games, you've probably killed 100's of mobs over 100 times, the only difference is in darkfall you kill a thousand of probably the same 10 mobs, just because if you get somewhere, you kind of stay there especcially if your in a clan.
What do I think are different in the two games? The people, how they act, and how they work together. The people in wow are arguably less mature, not only for the fact that they are probably younger than the average darkfall player, and two they just dont care, wow is big enough to not give a shit. even if you for some reason did a dungeon ninja'd a peice of loot, who cares? youll probably get called a whiny pussy in the trade chat if you complain anyway. In wow, people just don't work together, I'll admit not much in wow is certified as "difficult" it's just that people are stopping working to work together all at once, why? Because of dungeon finder, no other mechanic besides name change allows you to be the biggest asshole/noob whenever the hell you want just because you want to do so. And just by doing so, it starts rubbing off on how you actually play. If you start playing like a noob, you are a noob. Now, this doesn't quite fly in darkfall's gameplay,sure you clan hop all you want, truth is, not much word will get out about you either, why? because noobs usually die first, and if your dead, no one cares about you anymore atleast untill your rezzed or the fight is over. What I'm getting as is, noobs can prosper in wow, they can't in darkfall. Is this part of the "sandbox mechanic" or the "targetting mechanic" not sure to be honest. But i know one thing, i just talked myself into resubbing to darkfall.
NVM. my bad
creating your own fun shouldn't be taken in a literally. its not like you're making loops for yourself to jump through.