Unrealistic Leveling

BusterBot858

I am getting more than a little tired of the same old leveling systems in every MMORPG, or RPG for that matter. It's unrealistic; you gain experience to level up so you can have more abilities.

That's not how the world works. For example:

My mom makes 12 egg salad sandwiches; two of them don't turn out, so she really only made 10.
Each one gives her 10 exp. After reaching 100 xp, she levels up and can make nachos.
She makes 18 nachos, but for some reason the first 8 don't turn out. Even though she tried, she still doesn't get any exp, and only by sheer luck does she manage to make any at all. Not only that, but while making these nachos, she accidentally makes 14 egg salad sandwiches.

Now I ask you, is that really how it works? No. A person who has never had any past cooking experience can easily try to make nachos. They may fail miserably, but they can still try. And it is commonly accepted that (most) people learn from their mistakes. So why don't we gain exp when we fail?

Here is a more realistic example:

My mom decides to make nachos. She fails on the first 5, but manages to make 11 after that because she learned what not to do. She also doesn't accidentally make any egg salad sandwiches, because she didn't try to.

This applies to weapons as well. I can't wield a super sword until level 15? Why not? I could in real life, I would just suck at combat using it because I wouldn't be very good. As I got better levels, I would be better at wielding my weapon, no matter what it is. Of course there would be a limit to the maximum amount of damage you could do, you can't deal 1,000,000 damage with a dagger.

Honestly, I think MMORPG designers should take to heart the fact that nothing is original anymore; they just apply the same old designs to new characters and a new story.

Aldaron

As long as you got these suckers doling out money each month for crap. You'll get new and supposedly improved crap put out.

Death is not to fear, for contrary to popular belief, it is not the end, but rather the beginning on the road to eternity.

Tallyn

I completely agree! That's one of the rants I have been keeping in my head for the longest time, probably since games started adding level requirements to weapons.

Sure, you want to control the economy and prevent people from leveling too fast or being too uber. But you rob the player of a truely immersive and imaginable game world that you first tried to strive for. If you REALLY didn't want a low level player wielding that thing, then for Lord's sake, make it a lot harder to attain or don't put it in the game at all.

If you really don't want players twinking their alts, then don't let them make more characters! Or find some other way to prevent that without screwing over the reality of the game.

That will never happen, but you should understand what I'm saying.

It would actually make more sense if you made less experience for things you did right. I learned a lot more from screwing up my omelots in the past week than I did from the one I made almost perfectly today.

I have been deturred from playing a lot of MMORPGs recently solely becuase of the fact that a lot of the skills and item restrictions they put in the game make absolutely no sense to me. If I want to be a level 1 wearing Full Plate and learning from a thousand failed attempts at baking a cookie, gawd damn it let me.

Tallyn

EredarLord

i'm not saying it wouldn't be cool to lvlup this way, but think about how much time should they need to program this kind of lvling up. But don't worry, this will be in games sooner or later

Serien

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Originally posted by BusterBot858
My mom makes 12 egg salad sandwiches; two of them don't turn out, so she really only made 10.
Each one gives her 10 exp. After reaching 100 xp, she levels up and can make nachos.
She makes 18 nachos, but for some reason the first 8 don't turn out. Even though she tried, she still doesn't get any exp, and only by sheer luck does she manage to make any at all. Not only that, but while making these nachos, she accidentally makes 14 egg salad sandwiches.

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lol great example! And well thought out!

that made my day...nice post!

Saryk

Well I will agree with some of this and disagree also, lol.

 

I do learn alot from my mistakes. But on the other hand I do get better with age, and experiance. Not all of my experiance was from making bad judgement, some of them yes, but not all. I would say that you could have a blend of both systems in a MMORPG.

You make a bad egg sandwich, you get exp. But then you make a good one, you get exp. Then you make a +1 egg sandwich, which gives exp. But going back to the plain egg does not give exp.

 

So this could work.

BusterBot858

Yes Gkarn, I did not mean to imply that you should get just as much exp, I meant that you should get some, at least. Maybe a fourth of what you would get if you succeeded.

Thank you everyone else for your great replies.

dsorrent

Good post... although, tell your mom she would level faster if she just made one big batch of egg salad at one time and then just made the sandwiches from that.  Then she knows right up front if she will have any failed sandwiches and can make a new batch right away.  Also, tell her not to throw away the bad batches.  Put them on the market, someone will buy them for a couple copper or silver..

PFHATE

I did not read may other peoples replies to the first post but really I agree and don't agree. One reason why the makers of MMORPG people aren't letting you use the super sword is really all about real life. They want your money, if you have to stay till your level 50 to use a awesome sword and you have a big desire. You will stay for 5 months or so and they will be making money for every month. Dark Age of Camelot for example, you have a lvl 50 sword and you level up for 6 months. The makers of DAOC(Dark Age of Camelot) just made 72 bucks. Seriously if you were a buisness man you would want people to stay for 6 moneths and make 72 bucks. 10,000 people staying for 6 months, mythic makes 720,000 bucks.

Now on the other side, if you were practicing to get better at tradeskills and you tried 100 times to make a bronze sword, 50 worked you get 25 skill. What if you got points for all efforts and make 60 skills in weaponsmithing. It would be quite realistic and helpful to a gamer for all of his time in trying to get better in weaponsmithing. BTW the +10 to skill if for the fact that you would learn from your mistakes and would get better at weaponsmithing alot faster.

Thank You for Your Post,
PFHATE

iggy-pop

I agree mostly. I wish that every MMORPG didnt have basically the same xp system. I liked the example with making egg salad and nachos. However, i disagree with the sword idea. Why cant there be a sword that requires you to be lvl 15 to wield it. To some extent, you must suspend reality to play a mmorpg. I've never seen anyone shoot fireballs from thier fingers or stun someone for 10 seconds or 4 rounds or whatever. Why cant the power imbued in a sword be too much for your youngster to handle?

manday

Actually, Im seeing more n more games with weapons that have no level limit. So, like IRL, its all abt who has more money. Your attributesstats still play a big part in it (so if youre level 1 using an expensive bow, you wont do as much damage as you will when youre level 40, becuz your dexterity would grow..)

I, for one, don like this. I already hate leveling as it is. But new weaponsarmors give me a reason to lvl. Especially if they look cool.

digeraticula

I believe anything with levels in it makes it a crappy game, no matter how professional and big it is.

Open skill systems (such as the ones found in Ultima Online and Wish(still in development)) are definitely the way the MMORPG market (at least for the older, more mature crowd) should be going.l

jimothypetro

You're right, that's not realistic.

I'm going to go hurl a few fireballs from my hands now... cya.

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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
-- Ken Olson, chairman of Digital Equipment Corp, 1977

Bladin

what people are too dumb(i hate to say it but its true) to realize. is that theres no difference between a skill based game and a exp based game. It's just perspective!!!!

look if a good mmorpg out there goes skill based. Lets say you kill monsters for 2 hours and you gain +10 to 2 hand +13 to healing +6 to dodge +4 to parry

okay now lets say you go out there you kill monsters for 2 hours, you get enough exp for 2 levels.
you put 1 point into 2h mastery (the same as the +10 to 2h). 2 points into healing(more then from skills) and 1 into parry (more then you got from the skills)

okay there you go.

"but with a skill system you can learn ANYTHING"

pfft YEAH!!! RIGHT!!!

in a skill balanced game there has to be some sort of balance, so when you learn something you have to lose something else otherwise everyone would run around in godlike characters and youd never need anyone who just chose to specialize in say melee. Because who wants a melee when you can get a caster/healer/fighter/pet class ??

and in a level based game there are "usually" classes? why are their classes? so when you start a character you can choose a character that suits you. Like hmmm i want to be a melee but i want to be able to heal myself. ill make a paladin. See? and then you can say "but youd have to make your character over again to be that" .....so? you have to level the other skills from 1 anyway so whats the difference?

BusterBot858

dsorrent: lolz. Yeah, I never thought of that.

PFHATE: Sure, but what about free MMORPGs, or PC RPGs? People don't pay for those.

iggy-pop: You have a point about the fireballs. But I never said magic was realistic, did I?

manday: I don't think I understand.

digeraticula: Way to go! I like your thinking.

jimothypetro: I can't tell if your agreeing with me or making fun of me.

Bladin: I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Thanks everyone for their great replies. Now let's hope some MMORPG designers read this topic!

Pangaea

Is my Game Paridine ever makes it to an MMORPG .. I think you would be happy.

I have the same rant about MMORPGs as well if you refer to my past posts.

ianubisi

I get realism 24 hours a day.

I play these games to escape reality, not emulate it.

Pangaea

There is a differense.

You can HAVE Fantasy and still have Logic. and NOt worry abotu Realism.

I understand if you want to escape reality, but to escape logic, reasoning, and physics just gets a little silly.

Just go play a game where you have 1 million levels, and you ahve 1 million weapons (one for each level)

and play that up the later.

Wow.. I am level 3452. I can now use the level 3452 Sword.. NICE.. can't wait til I can pick up that level 3453 sword.

That sure isnt' realism.. it sure isnt' fun either.

I think MOST fantasy games should have Logic and realistic qualities behind them.

re·al·ism Audio pronunciation of "realism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-lzm)
n.

1. An inclination toward literal truth and pragmatism.

fan·ta·sy Audio pronunciation of "fantasy" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fnt-s, -z)
n. pl. fan·ta·sies

1. The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy. See Synonyms at imagination.

log·ic Audio pronunciation of "logic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ljk)
n.

1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

dsorrent

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Originally posted by Bladin

in a skill balanced game there has to be some sort of balance, so when you learn something you have to lose something else otherwise everyone would run around in godlike characters and youd never need anyone who just chose to specialize in say melee.

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Hmm... why does "Asheron's Call" come to mind when I read this?

ianubisi

Pangaea, you're making a very old, very tired mistake that many people make: trying to blend logic and fun. While they may hold tangential similarities, even have coincidental goals and paths, they are rarely good partners to make and often are completly at odds with one another.

Pangaea

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Originally posted by ianubisi
Pangaea, you're making a very old, very tired mistake that many people make: trying to blend logic and fun. While they may hold tangential similarities, even have coincidental goals and paths, they are rarely good partners to make and often are completly at odds with one another.

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Not at all.

Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't.

And for you stating that a Logical Fantasy world can't be fun is your OWN opinion.

I know DOZENS of people in real life that are ADDICETED to my Logical Fantasy Combat game.

So I guess we just have to agree to dissagree.

ianubisi

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Originally posted by Pangaea
And for you stating that a Logical Fantasy world can't be fun is your OWN opinion.

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I said no such thing.

Pangaea

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Originally posted by ianubisi
Originally posted by Pangaea
And for you stating that a Logical Fantasy world can't be fun is your OWN opinion.

I said no such thing.

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"very tired mistake....trying to blend logic and fun......they are rarely good partners to make and often are completly at odds with one another."

sorry.. i just misunderstood what you were saying.... I think.

Copeland

Personally i dont feel any game is perfect. Right now game designers focus mainly on the engine and the graphics with only a secondary thought given to actual gameplay and then they mainly just lift ideas that work from other games. I think Vanguard will be another breakthrough in game play. McQuaid invented the current basis for MMoRPG's and i'm sure he's had several new visions in the previous 6 years. I'd love to see a more realistic system but the logic to implement such systems is pretty hard to institute and balance. Currently i'm enjoying Project Entropia. You can use anything in the game but until you get skils your going to suck at it and it will eat your money. The only problem i have with that game is its not very stable. If i play it a few hours i'll crash a few times. I never crash on EQ or Eve - Online. Eve - Online has a nice system in place and i'm hoping that more games copy it. I believe Dark and Light is copying it in several aspects so i'm really looking forward to trying that game.

BusterBot858

I agree with Pangaea. There are tons of logic-based games out there, even for consoles. Even if a game isn't blatantly logic-based, it wouldn't work unless there was logic. Take Mario Kart for example:

If you drive off a cliff, you fall.
If you shoot out of a cannon, you fall.
If you drive off a jump, you eventually fall.

There is logic in each of those statements. Even if the game isn't a puzzle game, it still has logic involved, and if you take that out, nothing works. Example:

If you drive off a cliff, you morph into a game controller and fly off.
If you shoot out of a cannon, you spin uncontrolably for the rest of the game.
If you drive off a jump, you spontaeneously combust while screamy swear words at the camera.

And what if you turn the steering wheel? Without logic, you'll never do the same thing twice. Their would be no order, no rules, no home base. The entire game would collapse.

And to Copeland: My point exactly. All those game designers should read "Chris Crawford on Game Design," one of the best books in the field. I just finished reading it for the fourth time (I am a game designer and programmer for LegionSoft. We don't make MMORPGs though, sad to say). He has made the most unconventional - but still heapingly fun - PC games I have ever played. And did they focus on graphics? Well, this was quite a while ago... Did he focus on sounds? No sounds in any of his games that I've played. What about gameplay? His gameplay is the most fun, addictive, and original I have ever seen. I played "Legend of Siboot: Trust and Betrayal" for 3 hours straight, even though I had lost 3 times already. It would be worth it to check his games out at The Underdogs.

Thanks to everyone for your replies!

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100% customizable weapons! Turn-based Combat!

dsorrent

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Originally posted by Copeland

Personally i dont feel any game is perfect. Right now game designers focus mainly on the engine and the graphics with only a secondary thought given to actual gameplay

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I think this statement you said is almost exactly what the CEO of Nintendo stated a couple of months ago.  He went on to say that, as a company they want to focus more on game play and not eye candy.