i think permadeath could only work in a really shallow character building game, otherwise there would be too much grief involved for all the work and time put into building characters. There'd have to be little to no attachment to the characters or everyone would get too fed up after so many toons and time spent building. I think its a very poor idea for a mmorpg, maybe a single player w/ online play(like D1), but not a mmorpg.
^ I dont necessarily agree there rob. Perhaps the grief could be part of the game and I think the straight out death thing is covered in different ways above.
Quick Poll: (Not interested/dont care? Dont Vote.)
Y!PP: Captain Drumunki Screaming Eels Lord of the Flag of Convenience
oRO: Kahyr Swordsman LVL 41 No Guild
Y!PP: Captain Drumunki Screaming Eels Lord of the Flag of Convenience
For those that are saying perma death is cool and great and all. Just imagine if you will just for a moment you are ingame on a raid and another guild comes in and suddenly your vid card is trying to draw hundreds of people onscreen at once. By the time your card catches up you are likely dead. Grats to you on wasting 1 year.
What if you die to lag? Or a glitch that can't be proven? Or someone uses a hack of some sort to gain the upper hand on you etc? Perma Death although it does have a following is for the most part not widely accepted amongst the majority of gamers. The reason? Because most folks play games for fun and relaxation. Not to get lagged out or whatnot and die and lose untold amounts of time and effort.
Now the idea of a "child" or whatnot could mitigate the issue of having to start all over but that would in the end not be a pure "Perma Death" but rather a setback.
Originally posted by Sithos For those that are saying perma death is cool and great and all. Just imagine if you will just for a moment you are ingame on a raid and another guild comes in and suddenly your vid card is trying to draw hundreds of people onscreen at once. By the time your card catches up you are likely dead. Grats to you on wasting 1 year.What if you die to lag? Or a glitch that can't be proven? Or someone uses a hack of some sort to gain the upper hand on you etc? Perma Death although it does have a following is for the most part not widely accepted amongst the majority of gamers. The reason? Because most folks play games for fun and relaxation. Not to get lagged out or whatnot and die and lose untold amounts of time and effort.Now the idea of a "child" or whatnot could mitigate the issue of having to start all over but that would in the end not be a pure "Perma Death" but rather a setback.
Perma Death should never be on a game that requires you to invest a year to be bad ass.
Your mixing mechanics here.. level based games should never perma death.
but still in a game where the chance is there that you die not on your own fault trough bugs,lag or disconnect (so all mmorpgs on the market atm ;P) perma death would be more a punishment then something to be happy about ^^ maybe in a second life style game (a expanded chat room^^) it could work otherwise no thanks
I wouldn't like having my character permanently LOST because of some freaky lag on the internet.
Besides many of the games that I've played online take months to level up your character to a point where you want it. This would piss me off enough to delete the game permanently from my system.
I play for FUN not to have my character die ONCE then never play again.
It kind of takes all the FUN out of playing games ONLINE!
I would vote NO to this idea.
If you want permanent Death on a character go play a game where you can choose a "hard core" character at the time of your character's creation.
I'll pass on ANY game with "Perma-Death" built into it!
Originally posted by rentantilus It seems that I cannot illustrate enough how much of the MMORPG philosophy is restricted, broken, and/or extuinguished by the concept of "character level." Current MMORPGs use a level grind (or skill grind, or profession grind, whatever your favorite game calls it) to give unimaginative players something to do. People who can actually provide for themselves are busy forming guilds, exploring the world, making new friends, and playing out dramatic encounters. Level grinds (including assassin/Fed-Ex quests) are only there to occupy children with some familiar, instantly gratifying repetition. Let's explore how "character level" makes the concept of permanent death unappealing. The sense of "starting over," as I believe on previous poster called it, would be annoying and tedious. Not only do most MMORPGs require you to grind for several months to reach "end game content" or competetive PvP, but having to do that more than once is deplorable. So what do we end up with? We cannot include the revolutionary and paradigm-altering concept of permanent death, which would open up MMORPGs to a whole new world of functionallity, real risk vs. reward situations, no veteran stagnation, no newbie disillusionment, and a better emulation of real world themes (like realistic economics, physics, and biology, not "real" as in the "contemporary time period"), because it would be messed up by the single most hated aspect of MMORPGs. Let me say this again: We cannot include an awesome new idea because it is incompatible with an old, universally hated idea. We cannot include permanent death because it is incompatible with level grinding.
I agree completely and this is precisely what I have been trying to make these others understand. Permadeath (or even some version of it) cannot be simply added to today's games. They are boring and tedius in the extreme. Read what everybody is saying - even though who claim to be against the concept of permadeath - they use terms like "level grind". Grind is BAD - period - for everybody. Further, today's games are extremely limiting - thus not fun, so of course one does NOT want to be forced to do it all again.
The MMORPG concept MUST change - the game MUST have MANY, MANY elements (just like real life) that entertwine and are FUN in and of themselves - offering the player MANY opportunities for fun - not just killing fun. Further, the game balance (core conceptual design) MUST be changed from the concepts used today of level, extreme high end character vs low end newbie, etc. Then when one adds into the mix permadeath one will have a complete, exciting game for all players of all mentalities at all "levels". The whole concept (and you hear it in much of what all of you post) of today's MMORPGs is that it is all "grind" - hoping for some "end game" play. Why on Earth should an MMORPG be ONLY about having fun when you reach "end game"????????????? That is such an incredibly stupid game design concept - but WE let them get away with it, time and again.
MMORPGs SHOULD be fun for you and for me and for Emily, etc., etc. - from the VERY BEGINNING to the VERY END - in fact there should be NO end at all. If the game has been designed right, it would be just as much FUN to play your character as a "newbie" as a "veteran".
I completely agree JoeyNipps. Just Throw away your current ideas of what an MMORPG is and imagine a whole new setup. Everyone keeps wanting to just apply permadeath into a what they are used to in an MMORPG.
With a game that is built around permadeath, you wont loose months worth of playtime because of lag and such!!!
Lots of good points here by Rentantilus and JoeyNipps. Yep, its almost scary to see how similar the Mmorpg concepts are today. There's room for serious improvements.
Originally posted by rentantilus It seems that I cannot illustrate enough how much of the MMORPG philosophy is restricted, broken, and/or extuinguished by the concept of "character level." Current MMORPGs use a level grind (or skill grind, or profession grind, whatever your favorite game calls it) to give unimaginative players something to do. People who can actually provide for themselves are busy forming guilds, exploring the world, making new friends, and playing out dramatic encounters. Level grinds (including assassin/Fed-Ex quests) are only there to occupy children with some familiar, instantly gratifying repetition. Let's explore how "character level" makes the concept of permanent death unappealing. The sense of "starting over," as I believe on previous poster called it, would be annoying and tedious. Not only do most MMORPGs require you to grind for several months to reach "end game content" or competetive PvP, but having to do that more than once is deplorable. So what do we end up with? We cannot include the revolutionary and paradigm-altering concept of permanent death, which would open up MMORPGs to a whole new world of functionallity, real risk vs. reward situations, no veteran stagnation, no newbie disillusionment, and a better emulation of real world themes (like realistic economics, physics, and biology, not "real" as in the "contemporary time period"), because it would be messed up by the single most hated aspect of MMORPGs. Let me say this again: We cannot include an awesome new idea because it is incompatible with an old, universally hated idea. We cannot include permanent death because it is incompatible with level grinding.
I agree completely and this is precisely what I have been trying to make these others understand. Permadeath (or even some version of it) cannot be simply added to today's games. They are boring and tedius in the extreme. Read what everybody is saying - even though who claim to be against the concept of permadeath - they use terms like "level grind". Grind is BAD - period - for everybody. Further, today's games are extremely limiting - thus not fun, so of course one does NOT want to be forced to do it all again.
The MMORPG concept MUST change - the game MUST have MANY, MANY elements (just like real life) that entertwine and are FUN in and of themselves - offering the player MANY opportunities for fun - not just killing fun. Further, the game balance (core conceptual design) MUST be changed from the concepts used today of level, extreme high end character vs low end newbie, etc. Then when one adds into the mix permadeath one will have a complete, exciting game for all players of all mentalities at all "levels". The whole concept (and you hear it in much of what all of you post) of today's MMORPGs is that it is all "grind" - hoping for some "end game" play. Why on Earth should an MMORPG be ONLY about having fun when you reach "end game"????????????? That is such an incredibly stupid game design concept - but WE let them get away with it, time and again.
MMORPGs SHOULD be fun for you and for me and for Emily, etc., etc. - from the VERY BEGINNING to the VERY END - in fact there should be NO end at all. If the game has been designed right, it would be just as much FUN to play your character as a "newbie" as a "veteran".
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
you guys really should speak only for yourselves since there are many people still having 'fun' in level mmorpg's. In fact, take this how you want, but i think you need to really take other opinions more than just your own, when talkiing about what 'everyone wants'. Sure, demean and criticize the masses for playing/enjoying them, but realize where your opinions stand in relation to 'everyone', and to then act like 'everyone wants' what your say they want after you just criticized them for flocking to the level based mmorpg's contradicts itself. Its like you people rationalize to yourself that everyone wants what i want in a permadeath mmorpg, but then say the masses are stupid for playing/enjoyiing those level based games, so which is it?
I'm not saying there isnt alot of room for being creative, there very much is. No, not all games should/have to be level-based, i'm simply sayiing your opinions glorifying your own concepts, while knocking what the masses are enjoying, really contradicts itself in the big picture. Unless i guess your only going for a niche, but dont say 'everyone' if thats the case.
I would also like a better explanation how you would include attachment to character, which is a part of character building, to a permadeath system. For example, for your concept of a permadeath mmorpg, how much character building would there be? Lets say you dont have levels since obviously the both of you are against leveling, so i assume your going to have skills? If not skills, how would you setup character building in your game? be specific if you can. And how long would that character building go? For a few hours? A few days? Months? Infinitely? If its a few hours, then that makes some sense to me, but dont expect there to be much attachment if at all to the characters, let alone much character building at all if it only goes for a few hours. If its months or indefinitely, then expect extreme frustration every time someones character dies and those months or even years played are just wasted.
That is why i say permadeath could work in a shallow game where there isnt much character building. Otherwise there is too much grief in the attachment to character if it has longterm building to only lose it all to one fluke incident, or just a single death. With that design concept, you definitely wouldnt attract the masses, you'd attract a very small niche if that. I hope that made sense, and if you do have more reasoning or i misinterpreted how you would design a mmorpg with permadeath, feel free to correct me where i was wrong. I'm just not sure how you could make longterm character building work with permadeath, since i would think they dont go together too well, and even then its hard enough for mmorpg's like SB with hardcore open loot rules, and oopen pvp to attract alot of players due to the grief involved.
lol noone wants to work months on a character only to die later on and loose it, that would suck, are if it is pvp everywhere you go there are grifers there that would suck also, mourning is gonna suck , lol so i know i suck who doesnt, but permadeath really sucks
- Kids, kiddo, kiddy, noobs, young padawan, listen, follow, obey, do this, do that.
Try using other words that aint bringing those ideas again. hehe
- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by Pangaea GRRR. OK ust so you kids can understand this better. The last thing to tell kids are:
- Kids, kiddo, kiddy, noobs, young padawan, listen, follow, obey, do this, do that.
Try using other words that aint bringing those ideas again. hehe- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''
lol
Ok
What I am tryign to say is, Level based games, in general have many Heros.
You have a game that will eventually have ALOT of high level players as time progresses.
Eventually the veteran players will have mostly high level if not max level characters.
Level based games REWARD characters by TIME INVESTED. IT goes completly against Perma Death. Cause to be "bad ass" in a Level based game you have to invest TIME. Perma Death can not be for this.
If you had a game where you had a usefull mechanic to BUILD a powerful character in many different ways.
- Armor weapons and item Finds.
- Skills, abilities and stat quality.
- Luck and or player skill.
Not really TIME based but chance, luck, and using your mind. You can have a pretty viable and tough character to work with and fear his death.
I think the current MMOs are designed to keep you online as long as possible, because that uis how they make money. They WANT you to invest TIME in your character so 99% of them are based on that.
They are good for people who want that.
But the new breed should be nothing like this.
I think the climb to the top should be difficult, and different for everyone.
I think Heros should be RARE.
And when you see a Hero.. you will be like.. whoa.. that dude is bad ass
not.. WOW that dude has no life. and he is level 60 just like everyone else.
OK ust so you kids can understand this better. Perma Death and Level Based games shouldn't be tried.. you will waist too much time.
Everyones aregument against Perma Death is "What about lag and what about me spending monthes on a character and he is lost" Trust me Perma Death is viable as long as your game mechanics work WITH it not against it. And yes I have been playing and designing a game with perma death , that works great.
you shouldnt call people kids when you cant at least explain how your going to make it work. 'Trust me' isnt good enough, even the 2 posters above you supporting it didnt even explain how they'd make it work, all they did was knock all the current games, acting like permadeath was the next great thing.
So explain if you can how your game mechanics will work WITH permadeath, and how your going to maintain longterm character building/attachment in a permadeath game that will appeal to the masses. I'd love to hear some logic, or at least some support in how your going about it, at least support what you say with some mechanics you've put in. At least give an argument more than blind faith~
What is the differnce between an FPS game like Half Life and an RPG?
In both games you "play the role" of an avatar. But in an RPG you develop your character, not merely upgrade your armor and weapons at a basic level. There is FAR more to RPGs and MMORPGs than levelling. You develop your character by gaining new skills, or better ones, improving your armor, and weapons, learning how to play the game with your unique set of abilities, how to contribute to a group, or raid.
Yes, in an MMORPG you can explore the world. Yes you can join a guild and chat to your friends, or join the chat channels and talk to the community. You can get married in game, have parties, or get-togethers, promotion ceremonies.
But most people play mmorpgs to grow. You start at level 1, green, inexperienced, ill-equipped, and gradually build up a character into a strong, powerful adventurer. That's the whole point. Who wants to lose ALL that to perma death?
So, make a new game? Without all the above, huh? Then WHAT would you do? Take the "tavern" example. It's true, no game has meaningful content in regards to a simple concept such as this, but...
In real life, why do people go to the pub? Alchohol, because of the effect it has. The atmosphere, and friends around you to talk to. So try translating this to a game. how much fun is it to get "virtually drunk"? It's like having a dream about drinking, then waking up. How do simulate the atmosphere? Prevent people from chatting globally? Remove ALL chat channels and force people to HAVE to speak face to face, or through magic, but as a cost. Then guild members MIGHT meet in the pub. But at what time?
This is a global genre. Vastly different times zones. Not everyone can log in at the same time.
I like to play a ranger in RPGs. I would like to be able to TRULY roleplay. By this I mean; head out of town and into the woods, travelling light because I can hunt what I need. I can hunt game, kill it, skin it, build a camp fire and cook it. I can stay in the wild for days if I want. I can sneak around, track, make my way without a map by following various signs, such as the position of the stars.
But would that really work in a game? How much programming would it require? Would it be fun to have to spend 6 or 7 hours, real time, to travel to a certain point on the map, from the nearest town. If I could get there in 20 minutes, it would not REALLY be the wild. How much fun would it be to play a barmaid, and serve drinks? How much fun to login and JUST sit and eat, of drink beer?
Even people who RP, with all the "thees" and "thous" or who love chatting to the community, still DO something when logged. And that usually means they are adding to their char, doing a quest for a new peice of armor, or whatever.
The point is this. Development. Not Grind. Players will not want to die permemantly because they had to grind for hours, but because they spent hours building their character. The MMORPG is evolving and newer ones WILL have fun and content do take part in, not just the endless grind to get stuff, skills, or exp. However, EVEN when you can do something interesting, for every second you spend online, when you level up, gains skills, spells, armor, without grind but through interesting quests and activities, and never ever find yourself doing the same thing twice, you will STILL be growing as a character. And you don't want to spend a year growing only to lose it all in death.
Ok, so you don't have to face the grind to level up a char, but that's not the point. I DON'T want a new char. I like the one I've developed, grown attached too, built a reputation with, learned how to play with skill and expertise.
There are several online chat rooms, with lots of roleplaying things to do, without the level grind of an rpg.
And finally, mention the negatives, not just the positives.
You die due to getting stuck in the world and drowning. GM doesn't believe you, doesn't log in for hours, doesn't give resses under any circumtance.
You die due to lag. LAGspike. Server going down. A server crashing in between you and your game server.
You die because you get trained. Griefed by an 8 year old. Your pick up group is full of ebayers. Your the healer and the mobs beat on you first. Your guild wiped on a raid due to unexpected adds.
These are present in current games. Instead of posting that mmorpgs MUST change, post HOW they must. Explain how you will avoid all the above pitfalls, what perma death will really mean, and what content you would implement, and how that would change the way people play. Explain also how you would pursuade people NOT to level, or develop, but just login and "hang out". Then post a poll to see how many people would log in and perform trivial roleplay type actions such as sitting in a tavern and slowly drinking a tankard of mead which you would do simply to do, not to regen hp, or get a quest.
Originally posted by rohbshop Originally posted by Pangaea you shouldnt call people kids when you cant at least explain how your going to make it work. 'Trust me' isnt good enough, even the 2 posters above you supporting it didnt even explain how they'd make it work, all they did was knock all the current games, acting like permadeath was the next great thing. So explain if you can how your game mechanics will work WITH permadeath, and how your going to maintain longterm character building/attachment in a permadeath game that will appeal to the masses. I'd love to hear some logic, or at least some support in how your going about it, at least support what you say with some mechanics you've put in. At least give an argument more than blind faith~
Just did.
read.
Besides I can't tell you TOO much of the mechanics.. cause I am currently using them in an unpublished work I am releasing eventually.
There are 100s of MMOs. that have characters that develop is similar ways.
start green, end veteran.
Now let me tell you, perma death is NOT for everyone. People like sticking with one character for ever. They want to keep that "hero" and have no risk at loosing him.
I already am aware what most of you are saying.
But WHY reinvent the wheel.
There are ALREADY 100s of MMOs that you all can play that give you that RIGHT NOW.
What I am saying is that a NEW BREED.. a NEW GAME STYLE be made.
For players that want to have a history in thier world.
To know that thier hero "Galadorn" died in a heroic epic battle with several lizard men from Dark Forrest... and a Grave is still set for him atop the "Tanfell Grave yard".
you know
It will be a DIFFERENT Feel.
The fights have more VALUE, LIFE has more VALUE.
Dying sucks.. yes. But in the End. You characters will be documented with a lifeline, a story.
you would be suprised how rewarding Victories can be when you LIFE is really on the line.
Originally posted by rohbshop and how your going to maintain longterm character building/attachment in a permadeath game that will appeal to the masses.
That is another thing... your stuck in the wrong mindset still jsut by that comment.
Long term play and character attachment, can be exclusive from each other.
Character attachment will be there because the excitement, care, and worry you have of thier life. Along with the skill and battle mechanics.
And to the masses??
hmm I think you mean to the MASS population of CURRENT mmo players??
Well that is to be seen.. I knoe that a good % of them will LOVE the idea.
But for the casual player.. and for people that dont think they would like MMOS.. would LOVE it.
Again it is all opinion.. just like you .. want your character to live for ever.. some people want to see them with vulnerabilities, and risk.
But there is a game coming out soon (q2, 2k5) called Roma-Victor. It's a realistic game based in 180AD rome. MMO, of course, but more FPSish combat than that boring old point and watch mmorpg style.
It's got a possibility of permadeath, but let me address some other things i saw ppl mention on the first page of this post (read that far then saw how many were after it )
First of all, it's realistic. So, while you do advance in game (get stronger, faster, or trade skills if that's your bag) youd o it within realistic limits. You start off at a realistic strength, you never advance BEYOND a realistic strength. There are no "ub3r, 1337, or p4wnz0r weapons . All real stuff from that period. WHat that means is that the newest newb can walk up, plant a knife between the shoulder blades of a vet, and kill him just like that. Or even face him in head on combat with a rusty piece of crap sword, and if he has good enough twitch skills (fps shooting style of skills, though the combat isn't like fps. We're talking swords for one, and it's realistic speeds, you can do several types of attacks like hacks, slashes, stabs, etc, you can also block parry dodge, etc) he could beat a vet decked out in fine armour and with a 1000 Denari gladius. Not likely, because of the difference of the quality of weapons and armours and hte differences in strength and speed, but again they're realistic differences.
No carebear pvp rules. Kill anybody, anywhere. Heck, if you feel like it, go burn their house down! For that matter, burn down rome! The only restrictions on pvp are purely realistic. If you wanna walk up to someone in the streets of rome and stab them in the face, you better be REALLY fast. Cuz you're going to have elite praetorian guards descending on you from everywhere. Again, they are going to have human speed and skill (no tankers like in other MMOs) but they're going to be all over the place, and using the best items and equiptment (note: high level players will probably actually be a little bit more powerful than high level NPCs, but just realistically so).
When you die, you go to elysium. It's the roman (or greek, can't remember) version of heaven/hell. You can get out, but it's gonna take a good deal of work. At least a few game hours. You take what you had in each hand with you, that's it. The rest remains in the game world with your body, and is free to loot by anyone.
Now, to the point. The strongest, most sucessful, most widely reputed (there's a system of reputation that affects how NPCs treat you) players have the option of becoming Legends. Legends have much slower skill decay than normal ppl, as well as commanding enourmous respect (hateful or loving or whatever it happens to be) from NPCs. Skill decay is the method they use to provide a cap, whatever you do not regularly excercise (be it a trade skill or sword work) will slowly decay as you get out of practice. It's easier to learn back than it originally was, but still you can lose all your skill in it if you don't use it long enough (game time, not real time). So legends can remember a much larger repertoire of combat moves and the like, making them much better. KFR (lead dev) has said what it equates to is that a legend going one on one with a normal player will pretty much always win (the only form of unrealistic advantage in the game). Also this means that legends can much easier sway NPCs to their sides, and therefor build up large armies. Oh, also, if you wanna take over as emperor (by placing yourself conveniently next in line in the political chain and then having him killed or secretly killing him, or by taking Rome by force with an army, or whatever you choose to do) you have to be a legend. However, the point of this whole post, legends have permadeath.
Lot of stuff to say to get to that one thing, i know
The only problem is there's no telling how the graphics are gonna turn out They say they're leaving them till last, cuz they're not really trying to advertise or anything until the game is almost ready to come out - they wanted to make it something with a useful community instead of a bunch of stupid noobs, and wanted to attract mostly ppl who knew roman history and would be able to contribute useful things or woudl be willing to look them up (basically wishing for a hardcore fanbase of useful contributors) and basically they achieved that. It's a small forum, but half of it reads like a history book. The other half is mostly ppl who have just started coming in and are your typical fanboy of everything that comes out useless posters - so they're leaving the pretty graphics until absolute last. I mean, they've got mostly nice player models now, but the terrain is ugly.
If they pull together the graphics though, and deliver half of the stuff they promised, then the game will be nearly perfect. Even if they don't deliver on the graphics, it will be really really good and revolutionary.
Oh, one more thing. No monthly fee.
Remember kids, when you see the lava coming, duck and cover!!!
Remember kids, when you see the lava coming, duck and cover!!!
MMORPGs SHOULD be fun for you and for me and for Emily, etc., etc. - from the VERY BEGINNING to the VERY END - in fact there should be NO end at all. If the game has been designed right, it would be just as much FUN to play your character as a "newbie" as a "veteran".
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
I agree, but HOW would you implement this?
It's easy to criticise other peoples work. Instead of posting nebulous concepts, give us detail, and the actual mechanics by which would would create it, ie, what engine you would use, how quests would work, etc.
I am talkign about a % based mechanic. Where you characters abilities are based off of endowments or Feats.
Paridine has this.
The system has.
% based combat hit and defense system.
Random body chart for hit locations based on probability.
Random monster encounters based on probability, location, and time of day.
Random treasure finds during travel and monster treasure based on treasure class types. ( so no finding swords on beatles or robes on wolves)
Sectional armor that can be layers and reduce damage directly.
Different damage types; Peircing (Armor 1/2) Blunt (chainmail, leather in effective but does more stun damage) and Slashing (all armor standard)
You can call shots to vulnerable locations reducing your % of your success to hit that location dramatically unless your have abilities that improve that action.
Spells are all cast through a magic point/mana system, and spells can be increased in damage or more difficulty to mentally defend from with the addition of more magic points.
Some spells can be cast on an area or singles person or cone effect.
Monsters have several action types, and they can perform these actions every time they attack based on probability and randomizing. (ei. Large Lizard: Claw, Tail slash, Leap onto character, Bite, Growl, etc.)
Combat damage has complications: Blood loss, knock down %, Drop of weapon %, Stun, Knock out, all based on where you get hit, and what you get hit by.
Armor and weapons can take durability damage and Armor can be destroyed if hit by too much damage.
Shields will directly reduce damage to your foes attack IF it is used (wich is done on a probability/ % based attempt.
Clerics can cast prayers and miricles based on thier Faith Point pool. Faith Points can be increased by tithing valuable treasure or raw gold.
Races such as Humans, Elves, Dwarves, halflings, Botans, and Munesprings. Along with Classes such as Fighters, Knights, Rogues, Rangers, Monks, Shamans, Clerics, Bards, Barbarians, and Magic Users.
Noone is immortal, you can lose a fight to anyone if the slim chance they get a lucky shot to your eye. But your abilities and character attributes may give you a HUGE edge in this combat system.
There is no levels. And there is no Autospawn back in town.
Just as kobold can kill your hero by catching you in the eye with a dagger. the same goes for your begining character agaisnt a dragon, if you catch him with a "ace" shot in his vulnerable spots.
So your NEVER truley MONTHES away from any serious power.
You can come across power in a day.
Or die in a day.
*the thing I hate seeing is a HEALTH BAR .. and a Fight that is basically .. HACK hACK HACK HACK (special MOVE) HACK HACK HACK .. and the health bar gradually goes down.
Sure if I had to ENDURe that kind of BORING ass fighting to get to a high level perma death would suck for me too.
What is the point in playing another EQ clone? What is there to accomplish? Do you really feel a sense of accomplishment in getting to the highest level in EQ2 or WoW? Something I could train a monkey to do.
What use is your sword? Or your spells if they cannot be used to defeat your enemies, and defend your homeland? What use is collecting all that money if you cannot use it to take over the world?
A warrior on EQ2 has no enemies at all, so is he truly a warrior? A warrior on WoW has enemies that he cannot possibly ever defeat, so what is the point?
A few common misconceptions about permadeath that I would like to clear up
1. Whats the point in working for ages levelling up my character if he could die and make me start over again?
-Any good permadeath system would NOT be a shallow, level/grinding game. There would be no point in taking EQ and adding permadeath. A permadeath game IMO would have NO levels at all, just skills, which, for the most part, are trained up individually. Permadeath is not for the weak players who cannot handle losing, it's for those who are above that, those who strive for a challenge. This can be enjoyed at any level, from beginner, just learning how to fight, and trying to survive in a harsh world, to veteran (if you make it that far) which will really give you a true sense of accomplishment.
2. Griefers will run rampant, killing all newbies and making it impossible to do anything.
-This simply isn't true, griefers who like to go around killing everyone they see will not be very successful in a permadeath game. Players who band together, form strong friendships and protect each other will be the most successful. It would be possible for a strong guild to conquer your lands, and start killing all new players they find, but as I said this is a skill based game. All you need to do is sneak away with a few friends, and hide. Then you can train up just by sparring each other, and then rush out of your hiding spots and reclaim your territory. The world will be tough, it will be dangerous, but above all, it will be fun.
3. What about lag? What if I get disconnected right at the wrong time, I will have to recreate my character?
-Fortunately there are many possible solutions to this problem. One particular game that I am interested in gives you 100 lives before you finally permadie. This should be sufficient to stop you from losing your character entirely due to an unexpected disconnection.
4. Permadeath doesn't work in mmorpgs.
-Did you know the system which mmorpgs are loosely based on (D&D) had permadeath? Permadeath has been included, and worked, in many multiplayer games before. It's only recently, since everquest that the idea of permanent death in an online roleplaying game seems so farfetched. I agree with you that permadeath does not work in everquest or it's clones. I personally don't consider everquest to be an mmorpg, just an mmog, since there are too many restrictions on rping.
*Signature*The Pessimist says the cup is half empty. The Optimist says the cup is half full. The Pragmatist says the cup is half full of air. The Engineer says the cup is operating at 50% capacity. The Psychologist says the cup is your mother. The Punk Kid also says the cup is your mother. The Cricket Player says his cup is definately full. Everyone knows that Pamela Andersons cups are full. The Defendant says it was like that when he found it. Me, I just ask the waitress for a refill.
Comments
^ I dont necessarily agree there rob. Perhaps the grief could be part of the game and I think the straight out death thing is covered in different ways above.
Quick Poll: (Not interested/dont care? Dont Vote.)
Y!PP:
Captain Drumunki
Screaming Eels
Lord of the Flag of Convenience
oRO:
Kahyr Swordsman LVL 41
No Guild
Y!PP:
Captain Drumunki
Screaming Eels
Lord of the Flag of Convenience
oRO:
Kahyr Swordsman LVL 50
No Guild
For those that are saying perma death is cool and great and all. Just imagine if you will just for a moment you are ingame on a raid and another guild comes in and suddenly your vid card is trying to draw hundreds of people onscreen at once. By the time your card catches up you are likely dead. Grats to you on wasting 1 year.
What if you die to lag? Or a glitch that can't be proven? Or someone uses a hack of some sort to gain the upper hand on you etc? Perma Death although it does have a following is for the most part not widely accepted amongst the majority of gamers. The reason? Because most folks play games for fun and relaxation. Not to get lagged out or whatnot and die and lose untold amounts of time and effort.
Now the idea of a "child" or whatnot could mitigate the issue of having to start all over but that would in the end not be a pure "Perma Death" but rather a setback.
Perma Death should never be on a game that requires you to invest a year to be bad ass.
Your mixing mechanics here.. level based games should never perma death.
but still in a game where the chance is there that you die not on your own fault trough bugs,lag or disconnect (so all mmorpgs on the market atm ;P) perma death would be more a punishment then something to be happy about ^^ maybe in a second life style game (a expanded chat room^^) it could work otherwise no thanks
There is a post on this in the Developers Forum.
I wouldn't like having my character permanently LOST because of some freaky lag on the internet.
Besides many of the games that I've played online take months to level up your character to a point where you want it. This would piss me off enough to delete the game permanently from my system.
I play for FUN not to have my character die ONCE then never play again.
It kind of takes all the FUN out of playing games ONLINE!
I would vote NO to this idea.
If you want permanent Death on a character go play a game where you can choose a "hard core" character at the time of your character's creation.
I'll pass on ANY game with "Perma-Death" built into it!
none
Here's the link to that topic on this forum:
http://mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/472/loadthread/27065/setstart/1/loadclass/155
none
I agree completely and this is precisely what I have been trying to make these others understand. Permadeath (or even some version of it) cannot be simply added to today's games. They are boring and tedius in the extreme. Read what everybody is saying - even though who claim to be against the concept of permadeath - they use terms like "level grind". Grind is BAD - period - for everybody. Further, today's games are extremely limiting - thus not fun, so of course one does NOT want to be forced to do it all again.
The MMORPG concept MUST change - the game MUST have MANY, MANY elements (just like real life) that entertwine and are FUN in and of themselves - offering the player MANY opportunities for fun - not just killing fun. Further, the game balance (core conceptual design) MUST be changed from the concepts used today of level, extreme high end character vs low end newbie, etc. Then when one adds into the mix permadeath one will have a complete, exciting game for all players of all mentalities at all "levels". The whole concept (and you hear it in much of what all of you post) of today's MMORPGs is that it is all "grind" - hoping for some "end game" play. Why on Earth should an MMORPG be ONLY about having fun when you reach "end game"????????????? That is such an incredibly stupid game design concept - but WE let them get away with it, time and again.
MMORPGs SHOULD be fun for you and for me and for Emily, etc., etc. - from the VERY BEGINNING to the VERY END - in fact there should be NO end at all. If the game has been designed right, it would be just as much FUN to play your character as a "newbie" as a "veteran".
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
I completely agree JoeyNipps. Just Throw away your current ideas of what an MMORPG is and imagine a whole new setup. Everyone keeps wanting to just apply permadeath into a what they are used to in an MMORPG.
With a game that is built around permadeath, you wont loose months worth of playtime because of lag and such!!!
Lots of good points here by Rentantilus and JoeyNipps.
Yep, its almost scary to see how similar the Mmorpg concepts are today. There's room for serious improvements.
I agree completely and this is precisely what I have been trying to make these others understand. Permadeath (or even some version of it) cannot be simply added to today's games. They are boring and tedius in the extreme. Read what everybody is saying - even though who claim to be against the concept of permadeath - they use terms like "level grind". Grind is BAD - period - for everybody. Further, today's games are extremely limiting - thus not fun, so of course one does NOT want to be forced to do it all again.
The MMORPG concept MUST change - the game MUST have MANY, MANY elements (just like real life) that entertwine and are FUN in and of themselves - offering the player MANY opportunities for fun - not just killing fun. Further, the game balance (core conceptual design) MUST be changed from the concepts used today of level, extreme high end character vs low end newbie, etc. Then when one adds into the mix permadeath one will have a complete, exciting game for all players of all mentalities at all "levels". The whole concept (and you hear it in much of what all of you post) of today's MMORPGs is that it is all "grind" - hoping for some "end game" play. Why on Earth should an MMORPG be ONLY about having fun when you reach "end game"????????????? That is such an incredibly stupid game design concept - but WE let them get away with it, time and again.
MMORPGs SHOULD be fun for you and for me and for Emily, etc., etc. - from the VERY BEGINNING to the VERY END - in fact there should be NO end at all. If the game has been designed right, it would be just as much FUN to play your character as a "newbie" as a "veteran".
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
you guys really should speak only for yourselves since there are many people still having 'fun' in level mmorpg's. In fact, take this how you want, but i think you need to really take other opinions more than just your own, when talkiing about what 'everyone wants'. Sure, demean and criticize the masses for playing/enjoying them, but realize where your opinions stand in relation to 'everyone', and to then act like 'everyone wants' what your say they want after you just criticized them for flocking to the level based mmorpg's contradicts itself. Its like you people rationalize to yourself that everyone wants what i want in a permadeath mmorpg, but then say the masses are stupid for playing/enjoyiing those level based games, so which is it?
I'm not saying there isnt alot of room for being creative, there very much is. No, not all games should/have to be level-based, i'm simply sayiing your opinions glorifying your own concepts, while knocking what the masses are enjoying, really contradicts itself in the big picture. Unless i guess your only going for a niche, but dont say 'everyone' if thats the case.
I would also like a better explanation how you would include attachment to character, which is a part of character building, to a permadeath system. For example, for your concept of a permadeath mmorpg, how much character building would there be? Lets say you dont have levels since obviously the both of you are against leveling, so i assume your going to have skills? If not skills, how would you setup character building in your game? be specific if you can. And how long would that character building go? For a few hours? A few days? Months? Infinitely? If its a few hours, then that makes some sense to me, but dont expect there to be much attachment if at all to the characters, let alone much character building at all if it only goes for a few hours. If its months or indefinitely, then expect extreme frustration every time someones character dies and those months or even years played are just wasted.
That is why i say permadeath could work in a shallow game where there isnt much character building. Otherwise there is too much grief in the attachment to character if it has longterm building to only lose it all to one fluke incident, or just a single death. With that design concept, you definitely wouldnt attract the masses, you'd attract a very small niche if that. I hope that made sense, and if you do have more reasoning or i misinterpreted how you would design a mmorpg with permadeath, feel free to correct me where i was wrong. I'm just not sure how you could make longterm character building work with permadeath, since i would think they dont go together too well, and even then its hard enough for mmorpg's like SB with hardcore open loot rules, and oopen pvp to attract alot of players due to the grief involved.
lol noone wants to work months on a character only to die later on and loose it, that would suck, are if it is pvp everywhere you go there are grifers there that would suck also, mourning is gonna suck , lol so i know i suck who doesnt, but permadeath really sucks
GRRR.
OK ust so you kids can understand this better.
Perma Death and Level Based games shouldn't be tried.. you will waist too much time.
Everyones aregument against Perma Death is "What about lag and what about me spending monthes on a character and he is lost"
Trust me
Perma Death is viable as long as your game mechanics work WITH it not against it.
And yes I have been playing and designing a game with perma death , that works great.
The last thing to tell kids are:
- Kids, kiddo, kiddy, noobs, young padawan, listen, follow, obey, do this, do that.
Try using other words that aint bringing those ideas again. hehe
- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
lol
Ok
What I am tryign to say is, Level based games, in general have many Heros.
You have a game that will eventually have ALOT of high level players as time progresses.
Eventually the veteran players will have mostly high level if not max level characters.
Level based games REWARD characters by TIME INVESTED. IT goes completly against Perma Death. Cause to be "bad ass" in a Level based game you have to invest TIME. Perma Death can not be for this.
If you had a game where you had a usefull mechanic to BUILD a powerful character in many different ways.
- Armor weapons and item Finds.
- Skills, abilities and stat quality.
- Luck and or player skill.
Not really TIME based but chance, luck, and using your mind. You can have a pretty viable and tough character to work with and fear his death.
I think the current MMOs are designed to keep you online as long as possible, because that uis how they make money. They WANT you to invest TIME in your character so 99% of them are based on that.
They are good for people who want that.
But the new breed should be nothing like this.
I think the climb to the top should be difficult, and different for everyone.
I think Heros should be RARE.
And when you see a Hero.. you will be like.. whoa.. that dude is bad ass
not.. WOW that dude has no life. and he is level 60 just like everyone else.
*shrug*
you shouldnt call people kids when you cant at least explain how your going to make it work. 'Trust me' isnt good enough, even the 2 posters above you supporting it didnt even explain how they'd make it work, all they did was knock all the current games, acting like permadeath was the next great thing.
So explain if you can how your game mechanics will work WITH permadeath, and how your going to maintain longterm character building/attachment in a permadeath game that will appeal to the masses. I'd love to hear some logic, or at least some support in how your going about it, at least support what you say with some mechanics you've put in. At least give an argument more than blind faith~
What is the differnce between an FPS game like Half Life and an RPG?
In both games you "play the role" of an avatar. But in an RPG you develop your character, not merely upgrade your armor and weapons at a basic level. There is FAR more to RPGs and MMORPGs than levelling. You develop your character by gaining new skills, or better ones, improving your armor, and weapons, learning how to play the game with your unique set of abilities, how to contribute to a group, or raid.
Yes, in an MMORPG you can explore the world. Yes you can join a guild and chat to your friends, or join the chat channels and talk to the community. You can get married in game, have parties, or get-togethers, promotion ceremonies.
But most people play mmorpgs to grow. You start at level 1, green, inexperienced, ill-equipped, and gradually build up a character into a strong, powerful adventurer. That's the whole point. Who wants to lose ALL that to perma death?
So, make a new game? Without all the above, huh? Then WHAT would you do? Take the "tavern" example. It's true, no game has meaningful content in regards to a simple concept such as this, but...
In real life, why do people go to the pub? Alchohol, because of the effect it has. The atmosphere, and friends around you to talk to. So try translating this to a game. how much fun is it to get "virtually drunk"? It's like having a dream about drinking, then waking up. How do simulate the atmosphere? Prevent people from chatting globally? Remove ALL chat channels and force people to HAVE to speak face to face, or through magic, but as a cost. Then guild members MIGHT meet in the pub. But at what time?
This is a global genre. Vastly different times zones. Not everyone can log in at the same time.
I like to play a ranger in RPGs. I would like to be able to TRULY roleplay. By this I mean; head out of town and into the woods, travelling light because I can hunt what I need. I can hunt game, kill it, skin it, build a camp fire and cook it. I can stay in the wild for days if I want. I can sneak around, track, make my way without a map by following various signs, such as the position of the stars.
But would that really work in a game? How much programming would it require? Would it be fun to have to spend 6 or 7 hours, real time, to travel to a certain point on the map, from the nearest town. If I could get there in 20 minutes, it would not REALLY be the wild. How much fun would it be to play a barmaid, and serve drinks? How much fun to login and JUST sit and eat, of drink beer?
Even people who RP, with all the "thees" and "thous" or who love chatting to the community, still DO something when logged. And that usually means they are adding to their char, doing a quest for a new peice of armor, or whatever.
The point is this. Development. Not Grind. Players will not want to die permemantly because they had to grind for hours, but because they spent hours building their character. The MMORPG is evolving and newer ones WILL have fun and content do take part in, not just the endless grind to get stuff, skills, or exp. However, EVEN when you can do something interesting, for every second you spend online, when you level up, gains skills, spells, armor, without grind but through interesting quests and activities, and never ever find yourself doing the same thing twice, you will STILL be growing as a character. And you don't want to spend a year growing only to lose it all in death.
Ok, so you don't have to face the grind to level up a char, but that's not the point. I DON'T want a new char. I like the one I've developed, grown attached too, built a reputation with, learned how to play with skill and expertise.
There are several online chat rooms, with lots of roleplaying things to do, without the level grind of an rpg.
And finally, mention the negatives, not just the positives.
You die due to getting stuck in the world and drowning. GM doesn't believe you, doesn't log in for hours, doesn't give resses under any circumtance.
You die due to lag. LAGspike. Server going down. A server crashing in between you and your game server.
You die because you get trained. Griefed by an 8 year old. Your pick up group is full of ebayers. Your the healer and the mobs beat on you first. Your guild wiped on a raid due to unexpected adds.
These are present in current games. Instead of posting that mmorpgs MUST change, post HOW they must. Explain how you will avoid all the above pitfalls, what perma death will really mean, and what content you would implement, and how that would change the way people play. Explain also how you would pursuade people NOT to level, or develop, but just login and "hang out". Then post a poll to see how many people would log in and perform trivial roleplay type actions such as sitting in a tavern and slowly drinking a tankard of mead which you would do simply to do, not to regen hp, or get a quest.
Then I'll start listening.
Just did.
read.
Besides I can't tell you TOO much of the mechanics.. cause I am currently using them in an unpublished work I am releasing eventually.
OK let me explain a bit more.
There are 100s of MMOs. that have characters that develop is similar ways.
start green, end veteran.
Now let me tell you, perma death is NOT for everyone. People like sticking with one character for ever. They want to keep that "hero" and have no risk at loosing him.
I already am aware what most of you are saying.
But WHY reinvent the wheel.
There are ALREADY 100s of MMOs that you all can play that give you that RIGHT NOW.
What I am saying is that a NEW BREED.. a NEW GAME STYLE be made.
For players that want to have a history in thier world.
To know that thier hero "Galadorn" died in a heroic epic battle with several lizard men from Dark Forrest... and a Grave is still set for him atop the "Tanfell Grave yard".
you know
It will be a DIFFERENT Feel.
The fights have more VALUE, LIFE has more VALUE.
Dying sucks.. yes. But in the End. You characters will be documented with a lifeline, a story.
you would be suprised how rewarding Victories can be when you LIFE is really on the line.
That is another thing... your stuck in the wrong mindset still jsut by that comment.
Long term play and character attachment, can be exclusive from each other.
Character attachment will be there because the excitement, care, and worry you have of thier life. Along with the skill and battle mechanics.
And to the masses??
hmm
I think you mean to the MASS population of CURRENT mmo players??
Well that is to be seen.. I knoe that a good % of them will LOVE the idea.
But for the casual player.. and for people that dont think they would like MMOS.. would LOVE it.
Again it is all opinion.. just like you .. want your character to live for ever.. some people want to see them with vulnerabilities, and risk.
Sorry, i can't read this long arse post.
But there is a game coming out soon (q2, 2k5) called Roma-Victor. It's a realistic game based in 180AD rome. MMO, of course, but more FPSish combat than that boring old point and watch mmorpg style.
It's got a possibility of permadeath, but let me address some other things i saw ppl mention on the first page of this post (read that far then saw how many were after it
First of all, it's realistic. So, while you do advance in game (get stronger, faster, or trade skills if that's your bag) youd o it within realistic limits. You start off at a realistic strength, you never advance BEYOND a realistic strength. There are no "ub3r, 1337, or p4wnz0r weapons
No carebear pvp rules. Kill anybody, anywhere. Heck, if you feel like it, go burn their house down! For that matter, burn down rome! The only restrictions on pvp are purely realistic. If you wanna walk up to someone in the streets of rome and stab them in the face, you better be REALLY fast. Cuz you're going to have elite praetorian guards descending on you from everywhere. Again, they are going to have human speed and skill (no tankers like in other MMOs) but they're going to be all over the place, and using the best items and equiptment (note: high level players will probably actually be a little bit more powerful than high level NPCs, but just realistically so).
When you die, you go to elysium. It's the roman (or greek, can't remember) version of heaven/hell. You can get out, but it's gonna take a good deal of work. At least a few game hours. You take what you had in each hand with you, that's it. The rest remains in the game world with your body, and is free to loot by anyone.
Now, to the point. The strongest, most sucessful, most widely reputed (there's a system of reputation that affects how NPCs treat you) players have the option of becoming Legends. Legends have much slower skill decay than normal ppl, as well as commanding enourmous respect (hateful or loving or whatever it happens to be) from NPCs. Skill decay is the method they use to provide a cap, whatever you do not regularly excercise (be it a trade skill or sword work) will slowly decay as you get out of practice. It's easier to learn back than it originally was, but still you can lose all your skill in it if you don't use it long enough (game time, not real time). So legends can remember a much larger repertoire of combat moves and the like, making them much better. KFR (lead dev) has said what it equates to is that a legend going one on one with a normal player will pretty much always win (the only form of unrealistic advantage in the game). Also this means that legends can much easier sway NPCs to their sides, and therefor build up large armies. Oh, also, if you wanna take over as emperor (by placing yourself conveniently next in line in the political chain and then having him killed or secretly killing him, or by taking Rome by force with an army, or whatever you choose to do) you have to be a legend. However, the point of this whole post, legends have permadeath.
Lot of stuff to say to get to that one thing, i know
The only problem is there's no telling how the graphics are gonna turn out
They say they're leaving them till last, cuz they're not really trying to advertise or anything until the game is almost ready to come out - they wanted to make it something with a useful community instead of a bunch of stupid noobs, and wanted to attract mostly ppl who knew roman history and would be able to contribute useful things or woudl be willing to look them up (basically wishing for a hardcore fanbase of useful contributors) and basically they achieved that. It's a small forum, but half of it reads like a history book. The other half is mostly ppl who have just started coming in and are your typical fanboy of everything that comes out useless posters - so they're leaving the pretty graphics until absolute last. I mean, they've got mostly nice player models now, but the terrain is ugly.
If they pull together the graphics though, and deliver half of the stuff they promised, then the game will be nearly perfect. Even if they don't deliver on the graphics, it will be really really good and revolutionary.
Oh, one more thing. No monthly fee.
Remember kids, when you see the lava coming, duck and cover!!!
Remember kids, when you see the lava coming, duck and cover!!!
I agree, but HOW would you implement this?
It's easy to criticise other peoples work. Instead of posting nebulous concepts, give us detail, and the actual mechanics by which would would create it, ie, what engine you would use, how quests would work, etc.
Then go write the game and get it published.
I am talkign about a % based mechanic. Where you characters abilities are based off of endowments or Feats.
Paridine has this.
The system has.
Noone is immortal, you can lose a fight to anyone if the slim chance they get a lucky shot to your eye. But your abilities and character attributes may give you a HUGE edge in this combat system.
There is no levels. And there is no Autospawn back in town.
Just as kobold can kill your hero by catching you in the eye with a dagger. the same goes for your begining character agaisnt a dragon, if you catch him with a "ace" shot in his vulnerable spots.
So your NEVER truley MONTHES away from any serious power.
You can come across power in a day.
Or die in a day.
*the thing I hate seeing is a HEALTH BAR .. and a Fight that is basically .. HACK hACK HACK HACK (special MOVE) HACK HACK HACK .. and the health bar gradually goes down.
Sure if I had to ENDURe that kind of BORING ass fighting to get to a high level perma death would suck for me too.
BUt if the game is exciting fun and detailed.
I think perma Death would be FAR more acceptable.
What is the point in playing another EQ clone? What is there to accomplish? Do you really feel a sense of accomplishment in getting to the highest level in EQ2 or WoW? Something I could train a monkey to do.
What use is your sword? Or your spells if they cannot be used to defeat your enemies, and defend your homeland? What use is collecting all that money if you cannot use it to take over the world?
A warrior on EQ2 has no enemies at all, so is he truly a warrior? A warrior on WoW has enemies that he cannot possibly ever defeat, so what is the point?
A few common misconceptions about permadeath that I would like to clear up
1. Whats the point in working for ages levelling up my character if he could die and make me start over again?
-Any good permadeath system would NOT be a shallow, level/grinding game. There would be no point in taking EQ and adding permadeath. A permadeath game IMO would have NO levels at all, just skills, which, for the most part, are trained up individually. Permadeath is not for the weak players who cannot handle losing, it's for those who are above that, those who strive for a challenge. This can be enjoyed at any level, from beginner, just learning how to fight, and trying to survive in a harsh world, to veteran (if you make it that far) which will really give you a true sense of accomplishment.
2. Griefers will run rampant, killing all newbies and making it impossible to do anything.
-This simply isn't true, griefers who like to go around killing everyone they see will not be very successful in a permadeath game. Players who band together, form strong friendships and protect each other will be the most successful. It would be possible for a strong guild to conquer your lands, and start killing all new players they find, but as I said this is a skill based game. All you need to do is sneak away with a few friends, and hide. Then you can train up just by sparring each other, and then rush out of your hiding spots and reclaim your territory. The world will be tough, it will be dangerous, but above all, it will be fun.
3. What about lag? What if I get disconnected right at the wrong time, I will have to recreate my character?
-Fortunately there are many possible solutions to this problem. One particular game that I am interested in gives you 100 lives before you finally permadie. This should be sufficient to stop you from losing your character entirely due to an unexpected disconnection.
4. Permadeath doesn't work in mmorpgs.
-Did you know the system which mmorpgs are loosely based on (D&D) had permadeath? Permadeath has been included, and worked, in many multiplayer games before. It's only recently, since everquest that the idea of permanent death in an online roleplaying game seems so farfetched. I agree with you that permadeath does not work in everquest or it's clones. I personally don't consider everquest to be an mmorpg, just an mmog, since there are too many restrictions on rping.
*Signature*The Pessimist says the cup is half empty. The Optimist says the cup is half full. The Pragmatist says the cup is half full of air. The Engineer says the cup is operating at 50% capacity. The Psychologist says the cup is your mother. The Punk Kid also says the cup is your mother. The Cricket Player says his cup is definately full. Everyone knows that Pamela Andersons cups are full. The Defendant says it was like that when he found it. Me, I just ask the waitress for a refill.
Well said Geld
this is what I have been saying for years.