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Crafting in MMO's
almalexius
Member UncommonPosts: 180
Why is it that almost any MMORPG has crafting of some sort in it but it never seems to be very useful? I'm currently playing Aion and what a stinker it is! Leveling crafting consists of running back and forth between 2 spots in 1 room for hours.
The only game i saw where crafting was even remotely interesting was Vanguard. Sort of.
Why is it so hard to let you craft useful items with a sort of interestng experience? I know there will be some sort of grind and i don't mind because well let's face it life's a grind but this is just plain riddiculous.
Any idea's?
WOW,eq2,Vanguard,WAR,LOTRO,AOC,Rift Aion, SWTOR, TERA.
Currently playing GW2.
Comments
That is actually a good question. There is a few sandbox games that had good crafting in them, like Pre-CU SWG but besides them is VG and EQ2 the best.
I wish they either canned the whole thing or made it fun. APB had actually gotten the crafting part right, crafting should be about designing cool stuff, not about grinding resources.
Sooner or later will a new game come with good crafting, but it might take a long while.
I agree, its strange that crafting isnt implemented in a better way. Perhaps a combination of APB´s and VG´s systems would make it a more interested experience. Now its more like a boring timesink
Pre CU SWG was the best crafting I ever tried.
I usually dont craft in MMO's, but the system was so interesting that I actually ended up crafting :-)
The design philosophy of MMO’s has changed; I have talked about it a lot on here as have others. For crafting to be a worthwhile occupation your character would have to end up with a significant advantage over other players. Current MMO design does not want you having an advantage like that other than in level. As this might make you decide you are unhappy in the game because someone can do something better than you and if you are unhappy you might leave the game. Yes I know this assumes that all players have the mental fortitude of a five year old, but that’s what MMO’s are now doing.
Also is it not seen as an activity all players take part in, if it was then the idea that players could feel disadvantaged would not exist. If crafting really meant something it would be better than loot, which is what us five year olds get when we level. If you could craft things better than I get as loot, being a five year old I am going to go ‘Waaaagh’ and throw things about in my pram. After my tantrum I may decide the leave the game. This is the bottom line these days, nothing absolutely nothing in the game should give a player cause to leave.
The fact that you spent hours getting your crafting top notch is irrelevant, as a five year old I am not going to be able to appreciate that. I have been a bit facetious here, of course MMO’s do not think we will all behave like this, but they think enough of us will and thats all that matters. Remember design 101, there must be nothing in the game that would make a player want to leave. This has ushered in a bland world of MMO’s, where nothing separates us from the next toon.
Because you're probably just playing EQ/WOW variants. In almost all of them, the goal is to herd the bleating masses along the same path to the raid content. In order to get anyone to do the tedious mindnumbing raid content they put the best loot there, either in the form of epic gear or the items needed to make epic gear. If players could craft something better they wouldn't suffer through the endless repetitions of torturously dull gameplay in most 'endgame' scenarios.
UO, EVE, Puzzle Pirates, ATITD, Asheron's Call, Vindictus and Fallen Earth are some MMOs where you might like the crafting system.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It does seem most of the time the sandboxy games have the best crafting. My favorite of course is Saga of Ryzom. Never seen a crafting system even close.
Mortal Online was supposed to have an excellent crafting system also.
Crafting is a mini-game in so many mmos, including Vanguard. The best crafting, in my opinion, is one where you can affect the product.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
Anyone played korean Aion? Is the crafting there like it is in western version of the game? I mean, do they have work orders and are they implemented as they are in NA/EU?
I'm still hoping Earthrise crafting lives up to SWG. I spent a stupid amount of time crafting in Galaxies, and nothing has come close to it since, both in terms of the (enjoyable) effort required to find and harvest the best randomly-spawned resources, and the satisfaction that came from using said resources to produce the best weapons/droids/stuff on the server. It really felt like one crafter could impact an entire server and make a name for himself.
Basically, I don't mind if the crafting process itself is just click-and-wait (although Vanguard's system was fun), but I do want there to be more to gathering than just stumbling upon a node that's exactly like every other node, and I want much more variation in the quality of the final product. Constantly shifting, randomly-spawned resources with varying stats seems to be the way forward to me. Ahh... how I miss thee, Galaxies.
I have been meaning to check out Ryzom, but the monthly fee has always been a turn off. Normally I don't have a problem with a subscription but Ryzom always seemed like an ongoing beta of a game engine and not really a game. I probably should just give in and check it out because I hear a lot of good things about it.
"The best crafting, in my opinion, is one where you can affect the product."
Mmmm... Dynamic loot. UO spoiled me, so I'm with you on the ability to affect the product one creates.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
EQ2 has really useful crafting. But your right.... soo many mmo's might as well have not implemented crafting at all..
Crafting in Aion was frustrating, grinding for couple of days to get mats for new weapon, and than fail on crafting and puff... item and mats are gone... plus it was waaaay to expensive to level up skills.
One I really loved was jewelcrafting in wow. It was rather easy task, and I was making huge amounts of gold wit it.
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The funniest moment in my short Guild Wars experience was when someone explained crafting to me. He needed like 5 minutes to explain EVERYTHING and then said "yeah, its complicated". Um ... no, not really. LOL.
That said, for real MMOs I've seen crafting in Lineage 2 and Vanguard so far and I have to say I like the Lineage 2 approach more than Vanguards, simply because you had to adventure there to get your recipes and materials, while in Vanguard it was an incredibly boring mindnumbing standing around at a crafting station and repeatedly play one and the same game over and over and over and over until boredom was simply killing you.
I never came across a crafting system I would consider fun or even worth while.
I also think there are different reasons to include crafting and you have to make a system that focuses on the group you want to attract. For example,
Industrialists
Want most if not all items to be prduced by crafters
Prefer mobs dropping materials rather than finished items
Like item decay to create demand for more crafted items
Prefer face to face trade and imperfect markets to create more economic opportunities
Pure Crafters
Crafting must be involved and require a lot of input from the crafter
Gathering is equally involved
Prefer minigames of sorts to apply some skill in crafting
Want large time investments in crafting and large barriers to becoming master crafters
Adventurers
Crafting is viewed as a side activity
Crafting is for self-sufficiency and some extra money
Items gained mostly from drops and other achievements
No item decay, like auction houses
Crafting is a small time investment
Designers
Do not want to bother with leveling, recipes or materials
Crafting as a means to customize
No time investment other than design time
Ability to share designs with others
No item decay
So I do not see a single crafting system to rule them all, rather different ideal systems given a particular group. I will say I do not think that many people fall into being industrialists or pure crafters, mostly adventurers. And there are not that many systems made for designers period, so I am not so sure about that group.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Uh.
I'm sorry I have no idea now what I am.
1. Industrialists
- Want most if not all items to be prduced by crafters.
Yes. I want individuality, and control over what items I use, and quest items wont lead to individuality.
- Prefer mobs dropping materials rather than finished items
Definitely
- Like item decay to create demand for more crafted items
I'm not ever going to play a game that has item decay. Thats an instant interest killer just like first person perspective or "free to play".
- Prefer face to face trade and imperfect markets to create more economic opportunities
No, I prefer simple gamewide auctions.
2. Pure Crafters
- Crafting must be involved and require a lot of input from the crafter
Yes, definitely. I want a challenge there.
- Gathering is equally involved
Not really possible, but it should be some nontrivial task too.
- Prefer minigames of sorts to apply some skill in crafting
Yeah, definitely
- Want large time investments in crafting and large barriers to becoming master crafters
No
3. Adventurers
- Crafting is viewed as a side activity
Yeah, sure
- Crafting is for self-sufficiency and some extra money
Being self-sufficient has always been a motor for my crafting motivation, along with being able to help others and possibly making some money
- Items gained mostly from drops and other achievements
No
- No item decay, like auction houses
Yes
- Crafting is a small time investment
No, I want some kind of challenge there. But I dont want mind numbing crafting games. I rather would like to see a guild efford.
4. Designers
- Do not want to bother with leveling, recipes or materials
No, I definitely want a challenge there
- Crafting as a means to customize
Yes, definitely. I want individuality. Not everyone running around with the exactly same gear.
- No time investment other than design time
No.
- Ability to share designs with others
Uh, what ?
- No item decay
Absolutely.
So I'm none of these categories.
They are just generalizations I made from paterns I noticed, nothing saying you have to fit exactly into one group.
Also don't confuse time investment for challenge.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Because the design philosophy has changed for mmo. They are no longer design with any amount of realism. They are all design like single player rpg where everyone are these warriors of destiny with billions of hp, billions of damage capability and are on the path to kill demi-god raid bosses.
The idea of mmos have become so narrow that there is no room for non combat skills.
That's just silly. It takes a good six months to create a decent longbow*. If these games were ever created with realism in mind, it certainly wouldn't take less than 10 minutes to create a bow. On top of that, 95% of the people playing in medieval settings would be diseased peasants, not knights, or wizards or dwarves, etc.
The market for MMORPG has changed. There are more people with fewer hours to spend playing a game. They do not want to spend the fewer hours they have looking at a crafting interface repeatedly clicking a button.
* Yes, I actually know this and yes, it takes a good six months to make a decent, not great, bow.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Technically in WOW crafting nearly always has provided (a) great gear while leveling, (b) fantastic springboard gear at endgame, and occasionally (c) best in slot gear. That's without going into the constant demand for alchemy and enchanting, or the permanent passive bonuses accumulated via gathering skills.
I mean it's not perfect and they've missed some steps (A is less true nowadays with leveling outpacing tradeskills slightly.) But between the skills my 85s have (herbalism, alchemy, tailoring, enchanting) every one of them seems worthwhile (even as tailoring feels like a gargantuan money sink whose value-to-cost is a lot lower than the others, I still capitalize on killer leg self-enchants and some very well-selling items I've been putting on the AH, and bags.)
Clearly "making useful items" isn't the only way people are measuring craftings' value, because in WOW you clearly gain some pretty slick benefits by keeping tradeskills trained and maxed.
If we're attacking how interesting crafting is, then sure Puzzle Pirates, ATITD, and Vanguard smoke WOW in terms of providing a spread of fun things to do to make items (and, to varying degrees, whether you can really dedicate yourself to crafting as a full-time sort of activity.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I have to totaly agree with Loktofeit, UO also spoiled me on crafting as well. With the ability to use different tools to add (hopefully) the desired stats on gear you made, as well as choosing different ore for different resistances, AND being able to smelt down / cut up what you just crafted back into ingots / leather / cloth to craft once more into something possibly more useful, I feel UO had what I wanted the most.
UO, EVE, Puzzle Pirates, ATITD, Asheron's Call, Vindictus and Fallen Earth are some MMOs where you might like the crafting system.
Technically in WOW crafting nearly always has provided (a) great gear while leveling, (b) fantastic springboard gear at endgame, and occasionally (c) best in slot gear. That's without going into the constant demand for alchemy and enchanting, or the permanent passive bonuses accumulated via gathering skills.
I mean it's not perfect and they've missed some steps (A is less true nowadays with leveling outpacing tradeskills slightly.) But between the skills my 85s have (herbalism, alchemy, tailoring, enchanting) every one of them seems worthwhile (even as tailoring feels like a gargantuan money sink whose value-to-cost is a lot lower than the others, I still capitalize on killer leg self-enchants and some very well-selling items I've been putting on the AH, and bags.)
Clearly "making useful items" isn't the only way people are measuring craftings' value, because in WOW you clearly gain some pretty slick benefits by keeping tradeskills trained and maxed.
If we're attacking how interesting crafting is, then sure Puzzle Pirates, ATITD, and Vanguard smoke WOW in terms of providing a spread of fun things to do to make items (and, to varying degrees, whether you can really dedicate yourself to crafting as a full-time sort of activity.)
Lokto has a point, if it was worded a bit rude. Crafting in WoW and in themeparks in general isn't made to be an end in itself. It's made to be an addition to all the other stuff you do. It's not so much that it wouldn't work...it might, but it would dilute the focus of the game.
I think they could do more with crafting in games like WoW, without diluting the focus of the game. Rift is a step in the right direction, where items are useful and you're not producing 50 cr@p items to make 1 decent item, and you can also break the items made down into some component materials. It could eventually degenerate into the WoW version though, where they have to add some bonuses to having the crafting profession to make them more relevant.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
What is silly is you took my meaning so literal. Realism in terms like UO where a sword did sword damage. Not a level 1 sword does d4 but a level 100 does d10000000000000000000000.
Realism where crafting wasn't tied to fighting.
Crafting is a something that many people (including myself) find rewarding from a pure stimulus-response point of view. Action:outcome ... even basic repetitive harvesting can often hold my attention when I'm in a particularly OCD mood.
Ironicly, the more rewarding that crafting is made, the less fun it often becomes because of the economics. If the system summons too many scripters and powergamers, they flood the economy of the game, taint the image of harvesting/crafting and drive out the very people who wanted to craft in the first place.
There are good ideas and good systems out there. I have a soft spot for crafting in UO, but complexity of EVE is fascinating. Ryzom certainly had deapth, but the grind was too much for me - I was never making equipment for myself since it was always far more cost-effective to buy gear crafted by people further up the skill ladder even in your most specialized field.
I agree.
It reminds me of the time I realized that I liked "making stuff" because of a nervwinter nights character trainer.
There were all sorts of ways you could alter the armor and weapons. I spent hours changing things around, different colors, etc. That's when I realized that I liked making things for a game but not collecting and organzing bits.
Of course, as another poster stated, make crafting to fun, too rewarding and everyone will be doign it and you won't need an economy. Not sure what the issues is. I'd say "no economy" but I have a headache and don't want to hear the screaming.
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I’m willing to put in the time and effort to level a crafting skill. What I despise, though, is making any plans and materials bind-on-pickup and then placing them exclusively in RAID instances where I will never see them.
All craft materials should be available in the world at large. Rare, perhaps, but not limited to a single play style.
That's just silly. It takes a good six months to create a decent longbow*. If these games were ever created with realism in mind, it certainly wouldn't take less than 10 minutes to create a bow. On top of that, 95% of the people playing in medieval settings would be diseased peasants, not knights, or wizards or dwarves, etc.
The market for MMORPG has changed. There are more people with fewer hours to spend playing a game. They do not want to spend the fewer hours they have looking at a crafting interface repeatedly clicking a button.
* Yes, I actually know this and yes, it takes a good six months to make a decent, not great, bow.
What is silly is you took my meaning so literal. Realism in terms like UO where a sword did sword damage. Not a level 1 sword does d4 but a level 100 does d10000000000000000000000.
Realism where crafting wasn't tied to fighting.
In WoW (for instance), what would you tie crafting to, besides combat? What are you going to craft things for, if not combat? You can't just redesign crafting and leave the rest of the game alone. With one exception that I can think of (A Tale In The Desert) you don't design a game around crafting. You design a game, then design the crafting and other non-core features to fit the game.
Developers just want people to play their games and use the content that they program into the games. When they program complicated or complex crafting, most people don't do it. It doesn't really benefit the people who don't do it, so they've spent a bunch of time programming in crafting for a small part of the game's population. When the program simple crafting, many people participate (participation is beneficial), so they've spent less time programming and more people benefit from the crafting.
Come up with a crafting system that has the choices available to UO, but the accessibility of WoW, and you'll have crafting that developers would want to put in their games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.