Claiming that crafting is pointless because raid gear is better fails to recognize a few points:
Not everyone raids. If you play a game with raid-based endgame, I know it can feel like everyone raids, but that just isn't the case. Crafted gear provides another avenue of progression for those who lack the time and/or desire to zerg dungeons for 3-hour stretches. While it might not be as good as raid gear, it doesn't need to be since non-raid activities rarely require it.
Some players enjoy crafting. Again, if you're primarily hanging out with raiders and on forums, you might not even realize these people exist, but there's a segment of players who won't even log into a game that lacks crafting, whether it's a sandbox game or not. Some like gathering, some like assembling, some like the self-sufficiency, some just like filling in another type of experience meter.
There's more to the game than the last level. In a game with 50 levels, 80 levels, 100 levels, raid gear usually tends to be what you seek once you hit that last level. If crafted gear is at all worth wearing for 49 levels, 79 levels, 99 levels, it serves a functional purpose. That purpose continues to be of value for new players (to a lesser degree) and rerolls (primarily) for the life of the game.
Improves game economy. If the above three points are true (and they are), we've established that there's at least a marginal demand for crafted goods from a segment of players. Where there's demand, there's money to be made from supply, and a healthy economy adds another element of gameplay that many players enjoy, even in theme parks.
Having developers that specialize in the one activity that you find enyoyable, whether it's roleplaying, pvp or raiding, might seem like the best way to make an MMO that fills your needs, but it's not the best way to turn a profit. A game that only has pvp will attract a very specific, significantly smaller group of people, as will a game that focuses solely on raiding or exclusively on roleplaying. The more types of gameplay you include, the greater your potential market penetration will be; if each element is well-designed and implemented, you might even retain some of those players for more than 30 days.
In addition to the above, all of those different categories of player personalites have symbiotic relationships with one another. While Richard Bartle's writings on the subject have been debated and are directed towards smaller MUD communities rather than enormous MMO communities, there are undeniably aspects there that hold true with regard to the way the different gamer psychologies impact one another. (http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm) Simply eliminating an element of gameplay (and, therefore, a segment of the players that enjoy it) will almost definitely have a negative impact on the community as a whole unless it's replaced with another system that serves the same player group.
Excellent post. Very well stated.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Crafting (for developers) is a must because they want as many types of players to buy their game.
Crafting (for players) is a must because it is expected to be included in every game.
I agree, that not every game benefits from having a crafting system. But what can you do.
The problem with making MMO's is always that the community expects -everything- from any game. The genre is too broad, and that hurts the development. When you have to implement 10 features at once, you get 10 subpar features instead of few good features.
Developers need to man up and not cater to every single playstyle out there. It's just not working out.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Well, as for wow and crafting. It had some use in the gameplay. It was more back in the days.
But in lets say wotlk, the crafters got patterns/designs or whatever from the raids/dungeons/vendors to make gear that was needed for the raiding, to make you char competable. For instance, wrists was crafted and also boots, sure you could get them as drops, but you had the alternative to craft or buy crafted items. And then we also had the 3 most useful craftingskills in wotlk to, Enchanting, Jewelcrafting and Inscribtion. Because, jewelcrafters where the only ones who could make the gems used for both raiding and pvping. Enchanters was the only ones who could enchant your gear with boosting stats. And inscribers were the only ones who could make glyphs to tweak your skills and talents. But there was craftingskills that became quite useless in that point, and was mostly just picked for the "buffs" it had for yourself. I can't answer on how the cata crafting is useful because I have stoped playing. But yeah, all in all, the crafting in some games are there to be used to enhance your "gameplay"
This also goes for Aion, some of the crafting is useful for gearing and enhancements.
So, some games do actually implement the crafting quite well. Some just has it there to keep you occupied if you grow tired of the gameplay^^ Like archelogy^^ I know you can get useful stuff from archelogy, but... to what cost? It's really timedemanding what I can see...
for one: enchanted was in vanilla, wotlk didnt invent it
for two not all games have crafting dcuo just came out with no tradeskills at all, just glorious combat
Have I suggested it was invented in wotlk? no, I just pointed out it's use in wotlk:)
and secondly, so? I'm still talking about the use it has in those games it does actually exist for a purpose. Which was the OP's question. So, what was the point of you post really?
Meaningful/useful crafting is a huge bonus, and a game not having it like WAR, is a factor in me leaving a game.
I like to do all aspects of a game, that way when I am bored or want something different to do, or waiting for an event, I can get on a crafter or harvester, ect...
Just like VG's diplomacy system, I wasn't maxed or played it a ton, but it was fun to get on and play every once in a while.
I don't think you have to have it in every game. The issue is having a variety of things to hold people's attention, things to accomplish. I never minded CoH before they had something like crafting because there was a lot of different stuff to do, from exploring, costume hunting, story archs in all different 'worlds.'
I never crafted in Warhammer except for money, because there was always PvP.
I never did in AoC because I was always running for my life.
But sometimes it really fits the RP aspect. In Fallen Earth, more of my time is spent crafting, or really, looking for crafting resources. Even as a combat character, there are things you need like gasoline (so Mad Max), bullets, horsefeed, bandages, food, and drink. Gear you don't have to replace as much and can buy from your clan easily., but the consumables are so fitting to the lore and really amount to being more expensive than gear.
Aion is basically a potion based game, so I crafted there, but hated it, it was really just tacked onto the *cough cough* lore. Hence not playing it any more.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I never really liked crafting in any game. Chance for success is usually too low, and penalties for failure are too high. Imagine this, you get super mega sword, and you spend everything to enchant it to +5. And let's say +6 is max. You carefully put the last enchantment in it and you see message "Failure! All your enchanments are gone!" How that makes you feel? They should either make it 100% safe or remove crafting completely -.-
Originally posted by astoria I don't think you have to have it in every game. The issue is having a variety of things to hold people's attention, things to accomplish. I never minded CoH before they had something like crafting because there was a lot of different stuff to do, from exploring, costume hunting, story archs in all different 'worlds.' I never crafted in Warhammer except for money, because there was always PvP. I never did in AoC because I was always running for my life. But sometimes it really fits the RP aspect. In Fallen Earth, more of my time is spent crafting, or really, looking for crafting resources. Even as a combat character, there are things you need like gasoline (so Mad Max), bullets, horsefeed, bandages, food, and drink. Gear you don't have to replace as much and can buy from your clan easily., but the consumables are so fitting to the lore and really amount to being more expensive than gear. Aion is basically a potion based game, so I crafted there, but hated it, it was really just tacked onto the *cough cough* lore. Hence not playing it any more.
I think this gets it. There just has to be something beyond the usual combat/questing. It doesn't have to be crafting, it could be collecting tiny monsters and training them to fight. Whatever. Just something.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think this gets it. There just has to be something beyond the usual combat/questing. It doesn't have to be crafting, it could be collecting tiny monsters and training them to fight. Whatever. Just something.
LOL!!! Gotta catch em all, gotta catch em all!!!!!
MMORPG with crafting adds more value, especially when you can craft yourself your entire set, or when it can support you into questing/leveling/raiding/pvp, by either providing your consumables or pieces of gear.
When crafting is lackluster in a MMORPG I always get the impression I'm playing a botched game.
People like it, and it's useful. Each tradeskill tends to provide 80-100 stat points above what players would normally have without crafting. It's a progression game, extra stats are progression and therefore useful.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I condsidered if there would be more meaningfull crafting. Instead of grind, something which could be realy skill based, like you could sharpen sword in sort of mini-game or alchemy was done by doing right kind of prosess like with distillation where quality and effectivness of product would be based on timing and visual cues meaning you would have to go between quality or quantity in the way of not using early and late distillitates and only the middle ones.
Could be intresting, but of course not too viable and simple to make...
Obviously in sandbox game it's a must as you're supposed to feel you're in a world.
But some people complain that the crafting sucks in a themepark game about gear grinding, and it's like why does it matter if you can get way better gear from raiding? Why really even bother having drafting in say WoW or a better example DDO? Why is it a must?
People like crafting. It is just too bad that most games turns it into a boring grind instead of something about creativety, like APB actuually did.
Sandbox or not doesn't matter but I still wish they either did it well or not at all, it is just frustrating in many games.
If I want to make an armor for my character it shouldn't be about grinding skill for a long while and then spend even more time grinding resources and still look just like everyone else. It should be about designing a cool looking armor. And that goes for both sandboxes and themeparks.
A MMO should not require you to do anything, you should just pick a gamestyle you like and play it. And that goes for themeparks and sandboxes. If you like questing, soloplay, dungeons, PvP, craftin, grinding mobs or something else you should be able to do so.
Forcing all players to do exactly the same stuff isn't really that fun, is it?
Yes your right not all MMO's need to have crafting. However if you don't include crafting in your MMO and still charge the same as other MMO's which do (no matter how badly implimented) then your off your rocker if you don't expect people to complain about there being no crafting. Especially if you don't add anything else those other games don't already do.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
Yes your right not all MMO's need to have crafting. However if you don't include crafting in your MMO and still charge the same as other MMO's which do (no matter how badly implimented) then your off your rocker if you don't expect people to complain about there being no crafting. Especially if you don't add anything else those other games don't already do.
Yeah, it'd be tough to get away with an MMORPG without crafting (although I think it can be done if you really differentiate yourself.) But there's a difference between "can be done" and "is a wise move", I guess.
Still, if you're genuinely different virtually nobody will notice/care. Planetside lacked crafting, but aside from the rarest of suggestion forum posts you never heard people ask for it. Would crafting have added to Planetside? Well if done right it might've been okay, but it very likely would've felt crammed into a game that didn't need it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yeah, it'd be tough to get away with an MMORPG without crafting (although I think it can be done if you really differentiate yourself.) But there's a difference between "can be done" and "is a wise move", I guess.
Still, if you're genuinely different virtually nobody will notice/care. Planetside lacked crafting, but aside from the rarest of suggestion forum posts you never heard people ask for it. Would crafting have added to Planetside? Well if done right it might've been okay, but it very likely would've felt crammed into a game that didn't need it.
Guildwars have no crafting (well, you pay money and the resources to the NPC smith but it isn't you who make it). Lineage had only crafting for elves.
I rather skip it than have it as it is in most games. MAke it good or not at all.
And I actually think it is a big disadvantage to have badly done things in your game. A badly done features really upsets people, that is a lot worse than a little whining on the fact that you miss it all together.
It adds another dimension to the game that ppl can enjoy. If you don't like crafting, simply don't do it. This isn't rocket science.
That is fine as long as the crafting is well down. But it is far to common with a broken boring mechanics instead.
I like a good crafting system myself. A crappy one just upsets me and adds to the list of things I don't like about a certain game. If that list gets too long I will most likely decide to play something more fun.
Answer: Because it's a bullet point on the box and guarantees more sales. Therefore management demands that games include a crafting feature. This is no guarantee, however, that it gets resources during development.
It adds another dimension to the game that ppl can enjoy. If you don't like crafting, simply don't do it. This isn't rocket science.
That is fine as long as the crafting is well down. But it is far to common with a broken boring mechanics instead.
I like a good crafting system myself. A crappy one just upsets me and adds to the list of things I don't like about a certain game. If that list gets too long I will most likely decide to play something more fun.
I concur, and I think that any aspect of the game should be well done, be it combat, crafting, exploration, politics, etc. If something isn't done well, then the part brings down the whole. Overall, though, assuming its done well, crafting does nothing but add to the immersion and overall gameplay of any MMO.
I think its because of the copy trend, that devs think their game will lack behind if they dont have that bullet point to show.
Same with pvp, xp level model, big boobies and so on. Does a game need it ? I cant say, but it would surely be nice with a little more courage and fresh ideas.
I condsidered if there would be more meaningfull crafting. Instead of grind, something which could be realy skill based, like you could sharpen sword in sort of mini-game or alchemy was done by doing right kind of prosess like with distillation where quality and effectivness of product would be based on timing and visual cues meaning you would have to go between quality or quantity in the way of not using early and late distillitates and only the middle ones.
Could be intresting, but of course not too viable and simple to make...
Something like that was the crafting in eq2 at launch. Minigames where your outcome could give various qualities up to pristine or completely fail. Levelling a crafter was (unfortunately it is dumbed down now) as hard as levelling an adventurer, and making a pristine robe for example could take many tries and materials, but the robe would have better stats than a poor quality of same name.
Oh and crafting an item often required components from other tradeskills, so you had to communicate, trade, make alliances with other people.
Comments
Excellent post. Very well stated.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Crafting (for developers) is a must because they want as many types of players to buy their game.
Crafting (for players) is a must because it is expected to be included in every game.
I agree, that not every game benefits from having a crafting system. But what can you do.
The problem with making MMO's is always that the community expects -everything- from any game. The genre is too broad, and that hurts the development. When you have to implement 10 features at once, you get 10 subpar features instead of few good features.
Developers need to man up and not cater to every single playstyle out there. It's just not working out.
Have I suggested it was invented in wotlk? no, I just pointed out it's use in wotlk:)
and secondly, so? I'm still talking about the use it has in those games it does actually exist for a purpose. Which was the OP's question. So, what was the point of you post really?
Meaningful/useful crafting is a huge bonus, and a game not having it like WAR, is a factor in me leaving a game.
I like to do all aspects of a game, that way when I am bored or want something different to do, or waiting for an event, I can get on a crafter or harvester, ect...
Just like VG's diplomacy system, I wasn't maxed or played it a ton, but it was fun to get on and play every once in a while.
I dont know...
I don't think a mmorpg shouldnt require crafting.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I don't think you have to have it in every game. The issue is having a variety of things to hold people's attention, things to accomplish. I never minded CoH before they had something like crafting because there was a lot of different stuff to do, from exploring, costume hunting, story archs in all different 'worlds.'
I never crafted in Warhammer except for money, because there was always PvP.
I never did in AoC because I was always running for my life.
But sometimes it really fits the RP aspect. In Fallen Earth, more of my time is spent crafting, or really, looking for crafting resources. Even as a combat character, there are things you need like gasoline (so Mad Max), bullets, horsefeed, bandages, food, and drink. Gear you don't have to replace as much and can buy from your clan easily., but the consumables are so fitting to the lore and really amount to being more expensive than gear.
Aion is basically a potion based game, so I crafted there, but hated it, it was really just tacked onto the *cough cough* lore. Hence not playing it any more.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I never really liked crafting in any game. Chance for success is usually too low, and penalties for failure are too high. Imagine this, you get super mega sword, and you spend everything to enchant it to +5. And let's say +6 is max. You carefully put the last enchantment in it and you see message "Failure! All your enchanments are gone!" How that makes you feel? They should either make it 100% safe or remove crafting completely -.-
Guild Wars 2 Youtube Croatian Maniacs
My Guild Wars titles
I think this gets it. There just has to be something beyond the usual combat/questing. It doesn't have to be crafting, it could be collecting tiny monsters and training them to fight. Whatever. Just something.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
LOL!!! Gotta catch em all, gotta catch em all!!!!!
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
MMORPG with crafting adds more value, especially when you can craft yourself your entire set, or when it can support you into questing/leveling/raiding/pvp, by either providing your consumables or pieces of gear.
When crafting is lackluster in a MMORPG I always get the impression I'm playing a botched game.
Crafting adds to the game. Without crafting, cash shops do.
This.
People like it, and it's useful. Each tradeskill tends to provide 80-100 stat points above what players would normally have without crafting. It's a progression game, extra stats are progression and therefore useful.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I condsidered if there would be more meaningfull crafting. Instead of grind, something which could be realy skill based, like you could sharpen sword in sort of mini-game or alchemy was done by doing right kind of prosess like with distillation where quality and effectivness of product would be based on timing and visual cues meaning you would have to go between quality or quantity in the way of not using early and late distillitates and only the middle ones.
Could be intresting, but of course not too viable and simple to make...
People like crafting. It is just too bad that most games turns it into a boring grind instead of something about creativety, like APB actuually did.
Sandbox or not doesn't matter but I still wish they either did it well or not at all, it is just frustrating in many games.
If I want to make an armor for my character it shouldn't be about grinding skill for a long while and then spend even more time grinding resources and still look just like everyone else. It should be about designing a cool looking armor. And that goes for both sandboxes and themeparks.
Do it right or not at all.
A MMO should not require you to do anything, you should just pick a gamestyle you like and play it. And that goes for themeparks and sandboxes. If you like questing, soloplay, dungeons, PvP, craftin, grinding mobs or something else you should be able to do so.
Forcing all players to do exactly the same stuff isn't really that fun, is it?
Yes your right not all MMO's need to have crafting. However if you don't include crafting in your MMO and still charge the same as other MMO's which do (no matter how badly implimented) then your off your rocker if you don't expect people to complain about there being no crafting. Especially if you don't add anything else those other games don't already do.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
Yeah, it'd be tough to get away with an MMORPG without crafting (although I think it can be done if you really differentiate yourself.) But there's a difference between "can be done" and "is a wise move", I guess.
Still, if you're genuinely different virtually nobody will notice/care. Planetside lacked crafting, but aside from the rarest of suggestion forum posts you never heard people ask for it. Would crafting have added to Planetside? Well if done right it might've been okay, but it very likely would've felt crammed into a game that didn't need it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
simply put, ppl like it.
It adds another dimension to the game that ppl can enjoy. If you don't like crafting, simply don't do it. This isn't rocket science.
I self identify as a monkey.
Guildwars have no crafting (well, you pay money and the resources to the NPC smith but it isn't you who make it). Lineage had only crafting for elves.
I rather skip it than have it as it is in most games. MAke it good or not at all.
And I actually think it is a big disadvantage to have badly done things in your game. A badly done features really upsets people, that is a lot worse than a little whining on the fact that you miss it all together.
I've been wondering the same, why craft when boss drops are way more superior? Most MMOs doesnt have a dedicated class/job for crafting.
That is fine as long as the crafting is well down. But it is far to common with a broken boring mechanics instead.
I like a good crafting system myself. A crappy one just upsets me and adds to the list of things I don't like about a certain game. If that list gets too long I will most likely decide to play something more fun.
Question: Why even have crafting in every game?
Answer: Because it's a bullet point on the box and guarantees more sales. Therefore management demands that games include a crafting feature. This is no guarantee, however, that it gets resources during development.
Next?
I concur, and I think that any aspect of the game should be well done, be it combat, crafting, exploration, politics, etc. If something isn't done well, then the part brings down the whole. Overall, though, assuming its done well, crafting does nothing but add to the immersion and overall gameplay of any MMO.
I self identify as a monkey.
I think its because of the copy trend, that devs think their game will lack behind if they dont have that bullet point to show.
Same with pvp, xp level model, big boobies and so on. Does a game need it ? I cant say, but it would surely be nice with a little more courage and fresh ideas.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Something like that was the crafting in eq2 at launch. Minigames where your outcome could give various qualities up to pristine or completely fail. Levelling a crafter was (unfortunately it is dumbed down now) as hard as levelling an adventurer, and making a pristine robe for example could take many tries and materials, but the robe would have better stats than a poor quality of same name.
Oh and crafting an item often required components from other tradeskills, so you had to communicate, trade, make alliances with other people.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0