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Buying PC, requesting crtiques
CrazedBeaver
Member Posts: 73
I'll be buying a custom PC from AVA Direct soon (To mostly play Lineage 2, use photoshop, watch movies, maybe video editing). The build I'm looking at takes into account advice I've been reading here, but I really don't know what I'm doing, so criticism is requested. Looking to maybe move the price down, as I'm already slightly over preferred budget and don't even have a monitor yet. Am I missing anything else?...
(original non-customized PC here)
My Proposed Build:
Case: COMPUCASE HEC 6C28B Black Mid-Tower Case, No PSU, ATX
PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX TX Series Power Supply, 650W, 80 PLUS®, 24-pin ATX12V EPS12V, SLI Ready
Motherboard: ASUS P8P67, LGA1155, Intel® P67, DDR3-2200 (O.C.) 32GB /4, PCIe x16 SLI CF /2, SATA 3 Gb/s RAID 5 /4, 6 Gb/s /4, USB 3.0 /4, HDA, GbLAN, BT, FW /2, ATX, Retail
CPU: INTEL Core™ i7-2600 Quad-Core 3.4GHz, HD Graphics 2000, LGA1155, 8MB L3 Cache, 32nm, 95W, EM64T EIST HT TB VT-d VT-x XD, Retail
RAM: CORSAIR 8GB (2 x 4GB) Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 1600MHz CL9 (9-9-9-24) 1.5V SDRAM DIMM, Non-ECC
Graphics Card: SAPPHIRE Radeon™ HD 6870 900MHz, 1GB GDDR5 4200MHz, PCIe x16 CrossFire, DVI /2, HDMI, mini-DP /2, Retail
Hard Drive: WESTERN DIGITAL 500GB WD Caviar® Black™ (WD5002AALX), SATA 6 Gb/s, 7200 RPM, 32MB Cache
OS: MICROSOFT Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit Edition, OEM
Total Price: $1252.84
Will not need;
- multiple graphics cards
Eventually want to upgrade;
- second hard drive
- better graphics card (in a year or two)
- increase RAM to 12 gigs
Questions;
1. Is there a reason I wouldn't want the 64 bit Windows 7 home premium?
2. The case looks to only have 2 USB ports, I need 3. Get different case?
3. Does this look like it will run cool enough under heavy usage?
4. I'm expecting 3x the performance of my current system. Too optimistic?
5. Is there an expected price for the GTX560 card? Wait for that instead?
6. I picked the motherboard based on someone elses build... I have no clue.
My current PC:
Core2 Duo E8400 3ghz, 9800gt 1gig, 3gig RAM
Comments
To answer your questions:
1) There are a variety of reasons, but none that apply to all that many people. Such as:
a) needing to run ancient software that will not run on a 64-bit OS (if you have anything over 15 years old that you need, then you should check)
b) needing to re-use old hardware for which there aren't 64-bit Windows 7 drivers
c) being a huge Linux or Apple fanboy who hates Windows
d) needing one of the features that is only available in the Professional or Ultimate editions of Windows 7
e) happening to have a legal copy of Windows 7 Professional or Ultimate laying around that you could use
2) Most of the USB ports are built into the motherboard, and the case will have a hole in the back where the ports stick out. The motherboard has 6 USB 2.0 ports, as well as 2 USB 3.0 ports. All that is in the case is USB ports on the front panel or occasionally the top. If you need three USB ports on the front panel, then get a different case. If you need the USB ports to plug in a keyboard or mouse or some such, then those readily go into back USB ports built intot he motherboard.
3) No, it doesn't. Your case has only a single 80 mm fan. You don't want that and the power supply fan to be the only sources of cooling trying to pull 300 W out of the case under heavy load. One simple way to fix this is to get a different case. The Antec Three Hundred, for example, only costs an extra $22, but comes with two large fans, as well as plenty of space to add up to three more if you think you need them.
4) In single-threaded CPU performance, you'll probably see about a 70% increase in performance. For very well threaded programs, you could be looking at about triple the performance. On the video card side, that system will probably offer 2-3 times the performance of your previous system.
5) The price of the GeForce GTX 560 will be whatever Nvidia decides to set it at. Actually building a GTX 560 will likely cost about as much as a Radeon HD 6970, but performance will probably be closer to a 6870. Profit margins are Nvidia's problem, not yours, but it is reason to believe that they're not likely to try to start a price war. This has been Nvidia's predicament since 2008, which is why they haven't introduced a card that offered better performance per dollar than previous competitors since then. AMD, on the other hand, has undercut prices quite a few times since then.
If you prefer Nvidia to AMD and want a video card for around $250, then you might want to wait. If you don't have a brand preference, then it's very unlikely that the GeForce GTX 560 will make you wish you had waited.
6) It should be a nice motherboard, and appropriate to what you're getting. AVA Direct sells the roughly equivalent Gigabyte GA-P67A-UD3P for about $9 less, for some reason, so if I were making the build, I'd probably get that instead and save the $9. New Egg charges more for that Gigabyte board than the Asus P8P67, so I'm not sure why AVA Direct's prices are different from that.
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To answer the other questions that you should have asked but didn't:
I'm not sure exactly what programs you use. If you use programs that are able to scale well to as many processor cores as you've got, then a Core i7-2600 makes sense. If not (and games don't), then you might want to save $100 or so and get a Core i5-2500 instead. For gaming purposes, all you lose from the 2500 is 100 MHz.
You shouldn't upgrade the memory to 12 GB. For games, it's unlikely that you'll ever need more than 8 GB before you replace the computer. Photoshop or video editing may require more, depending on exactly what you do. If you do need more memory, then you should upgrade to 16 GB (four 4 GB modules rather than two), in order to keep the memory slots matched.
The next big jump in video card performance comes with the transition to 28 nm HKMG process nodes, probably in the latter half of 2011. That's the soonest that you could replace a video card and expect significantly better performance at a given price level.
You've got a big enough budget that you might want to consider a good SSD. Basically, if you have a good SSD, you install the OS and main programs you use on the SSD, and put everything else on the hard drive. Programs installed on the SSD will run fast, as they won't have to sit there waiting for data to come back from the hard drive. That makes the system feel a lot faster and more responsive. It usually won't improve your frame rates in games, but it will make a bigger difference in performance in most other games than any other upgrade you could get.
If you do decide to go that route, then a Crucial RealSSD C300 64 GB looks to me like the best value on AVA Direct's price list. You can get both an SSD and a hard drive in the same system.
Thank you both for taking the time to give me the valuable feedback. I made some changes, and I feel good about them. Though I might have to drop the graphics card down a notch to get this thing closer to $1200. I didn't get a CPU cooler or Thermal Compound in this build, is that a mistake?
Please feel free to make any suggestions or lend any insights. I'm sure there are many things I'm not even aware of that I should be questioning. This will be the last PC I buy for years to come. With your help, I might just get it right
Here are the changes:
Case: ANTEC Three Hundred Black Mid-Tower Case, ATX, No PSU
PSU: COOLER MASTER GX 650W, 80 PLUS®, 650W Power Supply, ATX12V 2.31 EPS12V, 2x 8/6-pin PCIe, SLI® Certified, Retail
Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-P67A-UD3P, LGA1155, Intel® P67, DDR3-2133 16GB /4, PCIe x16 CF /2, SATA 3Gb/s RAID 5 /4, 6Gb/s /2, USB 3.0 /4, HDA, GbLAN, ATX, Retail
CPU: INTEL Core™ i5-2500 Quad-Core 3.3GHz, HD Graphics 2000, LGA1155, 6MB L3 Cache, 32nm, 95W, EM64T EIST TB VT-d VT-x XD, Retail
RAM: CORSAIR 8GB (2 x 4GB) XMS3 PC3-12800 DDR3 1600MHz CL9 (9-9-9-24) 1.65V SDRAM DIMM, Non-ECC
1st Hard Drive: CRUCIAL 64GB RealSSD™ C300 SSD, MLC Marvell 88SS9174, 355/75 MB/s, 2.5-Inch, SATA 6 Gb/s, Retail
2nd Hard Drive: WESTERN DIGITAL 500GB WD Caviar® Black™ (WD5002AALX), SATA 6 Gb/s, 7200 RPM, 32MB Cache
Total Price: $1269.98
First, and most importantly, don't get a Cooler Master GX 650.
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/11/22/cooler_master_gx_650w_power_supply_review/9
They don't have any power supplies listed that are all that great of deals. I didn't bring this up before because the Corsair TX650 that you had originally picked out should work just fine for you. If you're trying to save a little money as compared to that, then you could perhaps get an Antec TruePower New 550 W. If you want something significantly cheaper than that, you could maybe justify an Antec Basiq BP550 Plus, but that's their low end line, so I wouldn't push your luck. You're not on an extremely tight budget.
Next, I'd probably pick different memory. For 2 GB modules, the price premium for 1600 MHz memory over 1333 MHz is only a few dollars per module, so I'd go ahead and pay the few dollars extra. For 4 GB modules like you're getting, the price premium is much larger. Perhaps the higher density chips don't yet bin well enough for all that many of them to hit 1600 MHz, or maybe the people who buy 4 GB modules tend to be more willing to pay extra for higher clock speeds.
And it's especially not worth paying extra to get 1600 MHz memory rated at 1.65 V. Getting that rather than 1333 MHz memory rated at 1.5 V is kind of like the memory company saying, we've taken a 1333 MHz module and factory overclocked it to 1600 MHz and volted it higher to allow the overclock--and we'll charge you an extra $30 for the service. If you're using photoshop and doing video editing, then I think 8 GB of memory makes sense for you, in a kit with two modules. But make it 1.5 V memory, rated at 1333 MHz. Kingston and Crucial both have kits suitable for your needs at good prices on AVA Direct's site.
Sandy Bridge processors don't even officially support 1600 MHz memory, but only up to 1333 MHz. They do have an unlocked memory controller, so you can try clocking memory at 2133 MHz and see if it works. Realistically, 1600 MHz should be safe and work just fine--at least for two modules at 1.5 V. If you're likely to add more memory modules in the future, then that's more stress on the memory controller. Volting it at 1.65 V is also more stress on the memory controller. Realistically, it would probably work just fine, but that would be a meaningful overclock of sorts.
Speaking of which, are you intending to overclock the processor? If so, then you'll definitely need a good heatsink and fan for it. The stock heatsinks that Intel ships with nearly all of their processors are pretty bad.
Even if you're not going to overclock the processor, I'd probably still get a cheap aftermarket heatsink and fan. Even the cheap aftermarket ones are vastly better than the awful stock ones that Intel ships. Personally, I use a Thermaltake Silent 1156, but I wouldn't recommend it. It performs a lot better than the stock cooler, and is pretty quiet, both of which are what I was hoping for. Unfortunately, it also makes an annoying scraping noise. While quieter than the case fans or video card fans, it manages to be a lot more annoying.
Any of the aftermarket coolers that AVA Direct offers would probably be plenty good enough if you're not overclocking. You might want to make sure that the fan speed can be turned down, though, so that you're not stuck with something obnoxiously loud.
For thermal compound, I don't think it matters unless you're overclocking. It's interesting that they have a bunch of choices for $1 or $2 or whatever. That presumably means that they're just giving you a drop (which is all you need anyway), and spread the tube across a number of customers.
Thanks for the heads up on that PSU. I went back to the Corsair PSU, dropped the RAM to Kingston 1333 (-$41) and added a CPU cooler (+$28) that had a favorable review in a comparison test I read (though NewEgg reviews seem to vary). Also bumped the Radeon 6870 up to the NewEgg Customer Choice version (+$2).
Will I overclock? It seems, from what I've read, that these processors are made to be overclocked, even the non-K. Probably not something I would do in the first months, but I'm interested in leaving the possibility open. Could I safely max out the overclock capabilities of the 2500 (non-K) with the cooling I have now?
I've given up on trying to reach $1200... Almost ready to pull the trigger on this.
Changes:
PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX TX Series Power Supply, 650W, 80 PLUS®, 24-pin ATX12V EPS12V, SLI Ready
Graphics Card: SAPPHIRE Radeon™ HD 6870 Mfg. Part No.: 100314SR (changed from Mfg. Part No.: 100314-2SR)
CPU Cooler: ARCTIC COOLING Freezer 7 Pro Rev.2 CPU Cooling Fan, Socket 775/1156/1366/939/AM2/AM3, Retail
RAM: KINGSTON 8GB (2 x 4GB) ValueRAM PC3-10600 DDR3 1333MHz CL9 (9-9-9) 1.5V SDRAM DIMM, Non-ECC
Total Price: $1280.25
Note: The CPU cooler doesn't list 1155 socket, but the manufacturer and the comparison test I read both do list it as 1155. So I assume AVA Direct simply hasn't updated its text yet.
A Core i5-2500 has a nominal stock speed of 3.3 GHz, but even at stock settings, it will clock itself higher than that when it finds it appropriate. If heat and power consumption is in check, it will clock up all four cores as high as 3.7 GHz indefinitely if it thinks you need the extra speed (that is, if all four cores are heavily used). Furthermore, for short periods of time, it may clock a single core as high as 4.1 GHz.
Overclocking a 2500 non-K tells the processor, don't check the temperature and power draw, but just clock it at those speeds all of the time. Well, if the temperature gets dangerously high, the processor will force it back down. If you've got a decent cooler (the one you picked looks fine to me), that sort of overclocking is pretty safe. What the 2500K does is to say, you can try to clock the processor as high as 5.7 GHz and see what happens.
Asus said that they tried overclocking a hundred or so Sandy Bridge processors (not sure if they used the 2500K or 2600K) and found that nearly all of them could reach 4.4 GHz, and the best could hit about 5 GHz on air. Presumably their overclocking meant overvolting the processors, too. Raising the voltage and pushing a processor to its limits like that does carry a considerable risk of frying it eventually. You'd also want a much better heatsink and fan for that sort of overclocking.
My personal recommendation would be to run the processor at stock speeds. If sometime down the road you think, hey, it would be nice if I had a faster processor for such and such purpose, then you can look into overclocking it then. If you overclock a processor when you'd be video card-bound even at stock speeds, then all that does is waste electricity and put undue stress on the processor, without bringing any benefits.
For compatibility, I think the motherboard holes to attach a heatsink are the same for LGA 1156 as for LGA 1155. A heatsink that physically fits one socket will also physically fit the other. A lot of heatsinks come with different brackets so that a single heatsink can fit several different sockets; the end user simply picks the bracket for his particular socket and ignores the others. Different processors will release heat in different spots, and designing a heatsink to carry heat away from the particular spots that a processor tends to release heat can be helpful. Realistically, this doesn't matter that much, and the heatsink that you're going to get is so much better than the stock heatsink that it overwhelms the few degrees of difference that you might get by designing a heatsink to fit a particular processor.
For example, look here:
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Corsair-H70-CPU-Water-Cooler-Review/1168/5
They tested 19 aftermarket coolers, as well as the stock cooler, using an overclocked Core i7-860 and Prime 95 to stress test the processor. Some of the aftermarket coolers fared better than others, of course. The difference between the best and the worst was 21 C. The difference between the worst aftermarket heatsink and the stock heatsink was also 21 C. I don't think the difference between 21 C better than the stock heatsink and 25 C better than it matters much. But the difference between 21 C better than it and 0 C better than the stock heatsink sure does matter.
Note that the noise matters, too, not just the temperature, and there are trade-offs between the two. More noise won't hurt a processor, but it might annoy you. It's often preferable to let a processor run a little hotter but still in a very safe range (e.g., 50 C instead of 40 C) if you can make the processor fan quieter by doing so.
The Thermaltake Silent 1156 gave the worst cooling performance among aftermarket heatsinks, but it was also one of the quietest. The Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro Rev.2 that you're looking at gave the second worst cooling performance, but was also pretty quiet. Either of these could have done a better job of cooling at the expense of more noise simply by running the fan faster. The three that kept the processor the coolest were also all tied for the noisiest.
What makes the stock heatsink and fan such a failure is that it not only doesn't cool very well, but that it manages to be about average in noise in the process. Turn the stock fan up and you'd reduce the difference in cooling performance somewhat, but it would end up as the noisiest fan while still giving the worst cooling performance.
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Note that any two Radeon HD 6870s are based on exactly the same GPU chip, so they'll give the same performance. The only difference between them is the cooling system, the monitor ports, and the warranty service. As you're buying it from an OEM, I don't think you'd contact the board vendor for warranty service. Furthermore, a lot of the cards are reference cards, so thsoe all have the same monitor ports and cooling systems. Personally, I'd probably just take a 6870 from either Asus or XFX, as they're cheaper. The Asus ones have a slight factory overclock, but that's easy enough to change in Catalyst Control Center.
For what it's worth, I'm mostly against overclocking video cards, especially for the top bin of a GPU chip. The stock speeds on video cards set the chip closer to its limits than processors typically do, as video card manufacturers generally regard themselves as less power constrained than processor manufacturers do. The only thing stopping Intel from releasing a 4 GHz bin of Sandy Bridge is that 150 W at stock speeds would be undesirable, and enthusiasts who want that speed can overclock it themselves. AMD doesn't release a 1 GHz bin of Barts (the GPU chip used in a Radeon HD 6870) because they don't have GPU chips that can safely run that fast long-term.
I wouldn't read too much into the New Egg customer choice awards. Sapphire is the board partner that works most closely with AMD, so when a new card launches, AMD sells Sapphire more of the reference cards than any of their other board partners. Thus, more Sapphire cards show up on New Egg, and then more people buy them because they're in stock more often. That's how it ends up winning a customer choice award.
AMD's reference cards are built by Sapphire (or perhaps rather, Sapphire's parent company), and then sold to other board partners that put their own stickers on them for a while, until they have time to come up with their own designs. That probably helps Sapphire with their time to market on reference cards at launch, too, as there's no wait to receive the card from a different company after it has been assembled.
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I'd say go ahead and get the build you have now, with the possible exception of picking a different 6870 to save a few dollars. It should be a nice computer for you for years to come.
I switched to the Asus Radeon and placed my order. Thank you very much for the help Quizzical.