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Down with lore
Henchdwarf
Member UncommonPosts: 517
slightly misleading title.
i dont mean have a blank slate. i definately like atmosphere, and culture.
what i dont like, is when games (and they all seem to do this) irrevocably mix gameplay with the story board or vision the devs created.
i acknowledge that game designers are very creative and expressive people, and i applaud them for their vision. what i do not always enjoy, is having to play in the same story line they have created.
races and classes, for example. i am in favor of as much customization as possible. i think the visual aspect of character design should be as up to the player as possible. this was one of the most ground breaking aspects of City of Heroes/Villains. letting people choose from an extremely broad variety of options. guilds could design their own races, or individuals could go as unique as they wanted. the same goes for classes. offer a huge list of abilities, purchasable through a given number of creation points, and let players build as they see fit.
what i dont want to keep doing, is endless playing (essentially watching) the same archetypal movie over and over again, which is pretty much what all MMO's do at present.
Comments
Perhaps MMORPG's are not for you?
The whole premis of MMORPG is the RPG part.
The thing is, you can, for the most part, ignore the lore in just about every mmorpg...most do.
But remove the overall lore of a game and you get exactly what you dont suggest....a blank world with no rhyme or reason.
Im all for the creation point character creation, however, you really stick a knife into the heart of mmorpg group functions. Fact is the more clearly defined and specialized the classes are, the better teamwork required, and overall better group mechanics.
Otherwise you get a game full of unique looking DD classes that can kinda self heal, kind of tank, and mabey CC a bit, everyone will go for the best solo/PVP combo. Sure there may be some flavor diffrences between all the characters, but their role in game will more or less all be the same.
Nobody is against character customization, however i think class custimization is a truly ugly can of worms to open, unless of course your goal is to make a fun solo PVE MMORPG possible with PVP as the multiplayer part.
You don't mean "lore" you mean linear story lines.
Lore is simply the back story to why the game world exists. Without it, you have nothing. EVE has tons and tons of lore, including several books, but no real story line to it. Even though I haven't really played much since Incursions were launched, I can't see CCP putting an actual storyline that you have to follow into the game. More of one that compliments the already existing lore and allowing the player base to participate in it.
Quit playing Themeparks. Story Lines are pretty much the definition of what a Themepark is. You follow a story to the end, then at the end you just do the same thing over and over again for no real purpose. Kind of making the entire process pointless.
no, im quite sure i mean lore.
what is wrong with a game simply supplying a multi environmental world, with forests to log, mountains to mines, etc and instead of wasting energy making lore based quests, make an enormous list of increasing tiers of craftable recipes.
obviously im not saying these should be the only features, but i dont see why i need to a game with some silly (and generally stupidly simple) backstory. flavor is created by players in multiplayer games. bland eternity is created by design teams.
i dont see why classless trait customization would lead to the anarchy you suggest. tanks and damage dealers etc would still emerge. i just like to believe that player ingenuity is still capable of finding new and creative ways to put fresh spins, if given the right tools.
as for the guy who said i am asking for a single player game. not sure what planet youre on. maybe reread the OP and try again? rpg doesent mean pretending to be a poorly imagined orc in some typical overdone lord of the rings clone. it simply means to play a role.
Very misleading title..."Down with lore.", ie Boo! or "DOWN! with lore, bushaka." ie Cool!... and then the thread is barely even about lore anyway, more about mmo-themepark clones?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Lore is atmosphere and culture. Story and quests are not.
You can have a game full of lore without a single quest - well, it used to be that way before we got NPCs with exclamation marks above their head.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Ok, that's more like it.
I agree, that's why single-player rpgs are good but not great for me. One play-through and it's over. MMOs generally have weaker stories than single-player rpgs ie quality and complexity.
GW2 has an interesting solution: mixing some instanced (for permanent story) and some persistent (for changing story) and then adding 5 races each with a story and each with 3 major brances of those stories for replayability. Of course that's adding the complexity and the quality is in there too likley enough but that likely means a shorter game as a trade-off.
Seems a clever approach and putting the rpg back into mmorpg. Oc when those stories turn stale there's always WvW for palyer-driven stories on the battle-lines and bloody keep walls...
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Don't get me wrong, I see entirely what you mean, I posted a wall of text in another thread that mentioned an idea like this. The players should essentially write the lore to the world they are playing in. As of now almost every MMO has pre-written lore, and it seems as thought the part the player plays in it is bland and redundant.
The bad thing is that you're implying that every MMO is lore centric, while very few actually feature anything I would consider close to lore. How about we get a good back story before we allow players to write the present tense story. xD
I think you pretty much answered your own question right there. An RPG gives you a defined role you play. Single-player games typically limit you down to a specific character, though some are more kind and give you a wider amount of customization. MMORPGs are not much different. You mention CoX, but the customization is superficial. It doesn't matter how different you look, your role is still just as defined as if you were an Orc in a cave. You're a super hero/villain. You have a specific powerset which doesn't make you much different than everyone else with that same powerset. The only thing that might differentiate you from thousands of other plays is what you look like (maybe) and how you hit level 50 (once again, maybe).
In your original post you mention giving people absolute choice over their skillset, and this has long-since been proven to be detrimental to skill balance. It's a nice concept, but so long as people abuse FoTM builds, it'll never stick. Inevitably balances and nerfs get implemented until you wonder what the hell was the point to an open-ended system in the first place, if they're going to restrict you in the end anyway.
Sorry to be the devil's advocate, but there you go.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
The thing is, if you dont have to do the lore based quests, why do you guys care if they are in game?
Lots of people like them, and they are nice to have if i choose to do them.
Im not one for removing gaming options from games is all.
Perhaps mmorpgs are not for me if i like to have the OPTION to do linear quests.?
Thats what i was getting at.
Lore doesn't mean quests, you mean Story Lines.
In Wurm, you dig, you mine, you build stuff, you can even go to a full loot/open PVP server if that's you're thing. Not a single quest in the entire game, but there is tons and tons of lore because Lore describes the world and why it's there, and what this or that means. Lore does not mean quests. In Wurm you do the tutorial on a separate server, then after that you're pushed off into a world where you have no more guidance, virtually no more NPCs, a you make up what you want to do from there on out.
Games have to have lore. Games do not have to have quests. You can be sure you don't mean lore all you want, but then you go right into talking about quests, which is has absolutely nothing to do with lore. Lore is simply the backstory, the story does not have to be written after the players are there, only before they came.
Playing a game with no lore, would be like reading a book with no words.
Then there is also this:
Which is pretty much exactly what I said, in less words. So, QFT.
And this is a pointless thread debating the gross misuse of a single word by the OP. So, I'm done and I'm encouraging everyone else who reads this to do the same.
Instead of replying, just play Mad Libs with me.
Never argue with an ____ , they'll bring you down to their level then ___ you with experience.
um, no.
in a loreless game, where all power brokers are players, each players has a full spectrum of options for who they want to be.
playing a role in a player driven story, is much different than simply slotting yourself in to find the next npc to give you a wall of text to read, with only one or two relevant lines of info (which npc is next in the chain)
in a game with player merchants, producers, adventures, builders, bandits, courtiers, mercenaries, etc etc all situationally based, people would tweak their builds based on what niche they wish to exploit.
ill concede right here that full skill customization may lead to gross imbalance or complete monoculture, but i think as wide parameters and cross purposing as possible is a definite requirment of a living breathing play run society.
i think its fine if evolving FOTM build float around. this could be tempered by an active dev team providing monthly updates to new resources and recipes.
im not demanding this game tomorrow, merely commenting on features i think would help make the sandbox genre run a bit more smoothly, as weil as try to express what i think are some glaring industry failures.
long ago, when the elves were born from magic..blah blah blah...some magic or event went awry...magic and demons messed up the world...blah blah blah humans arose....now there are dwarves who came up from mountains...then bad guys came, and other good races too, like little gnomes/mice men/mushroom heads etc...and some item needs to be found to restore order...but some evil general is trying to take over the world...and then the undeads came back to life...
jesus, is any of this necessary for fans of the fantasy genre to get together, build castles and cities, build kingdoms, interact with eachother, and develop societies, which potential can go to war both on small and large scale?
i dont think so. id rather hear from whatever group of people i end up with what other group of players are my enemies, allies, trading partners, neighbors. what areas are safe to me, which are dangerous. which resources are contested based on realistic constraints of competing guilds and nations...this is what i find exciting. real stakes with real players, who really matter, on a stage where i can truly measure my impact and form quest and goals that i choose.
I know this site is anti-themepark. Im not pro or anti anything, if it goes with the game and the game is fun, i dont care.
However, as i said before im not a fan of limiting gamers options. The whole point of these games is to do what you want right? SO what if you want to get into a storyline quest chain? I do have a huge problem with games that force you to do long quest chains IF THEY ARE BORING / MONOTONOUS /TIME CONSUMING. Thats only if they are forced, like i cant advance without doing it. God i hate those, especially when ive neglected the first step in the chain 20 levels ago, i get that...but thats removing my option not to do the quest chain, therefore i dislike it.
Having the option is key. THe major themepark and/or storyline based mmorpgs like EQ2 and WoW both have the option to just ignore it all, hell you can grind mobs up to endgame if you want.
The anti-themepark rage on this sight feels like rhetoric sometimes, since all the games that offer sandbox style progression, are low pop and full of people bitching about there being nothing to do but grind.
There are three games im on and off playing, Perpetuum, Darkfall, and *gasp* wow. Never got into wow before but decided to give it another go with the expansion and all.
The only game of the 3 where people are not bitching about the game/mechanics is wow unfortunatly. Given the seeming huge popularity of sandboxes on this site, and others, and loud cries for no more themepark games, im very dissapointed to see games like darkfall/perpetuum/fallen earth with somewhat struggling populations.
Is it that the people on this site screaming for sandboxes, have been playing wow for the last 7 years? Why all of a sudden can people not tolerate avoidable concepts like storyline quests, instant dungeons/PVP....fkc man back in the day thats all people wanted, an easy way to find a group, and easyer way for everyone all over the game world to meet up and pvp or dungeon, something other than simple quests.....we have gotten what we asked for in the older games. Developers did listen, and they did deliver.
Those old games still do exist, and nothing is stopping you from playing them, since system requirements on old games are not an issue.
It just doesnt add up, hearing how people want sandboxes, then seeing in game how the player base reacts to sandboxes. Its like people want it untill they get it, then they basically want wow with better graphics, from what i can see at least.
Except most MMORPGs have story, and the majority wants/likes it.
So saying MMORPGs aren't for "you" (the majority) is kinda silly, since the games where storyline takes a backseat are in the minority.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well, i think alot of people are confusing my wish for a loreless game, with a general cry to end all Lore based PvE games.
im not, and fans of such can go right ahead liking what they like. Currently, im in Fallen Earth, awaiting the shadowbane emulator to be ready for business (unless internal "issues" corrupt the project, as is seeming more and more likely)
darkfall, i was a little excited by, but i think the uber hardcore doomday penalties were a mistake. i think it would have been a mega hit if pvp loss hadnt been so harsh, and they had been a bit more to do in term of socializing. as much as i love open pvp games, im really not much of a pvper. i just think such games add a ray of reality which gives all players roles a bit more substance.
perpetuum, thats the one like eve but with ground based robots? just sounds kind of lame, again tethered too specifically to its chosen lore constraints.
i do think a niche like im describing exists, and can be successful, its just that many very eloquent detractors, such as yourself, get involved, you become extremist polemics, crying that if it's not "A" it will have to be the epitome of "B", which is really not the case.
My point is that if the single player storylines (eventhough most you can group up and do) are avoidable, as they are in almost every major game....why would you want them removed?
Also, there are game out there that do exactly what the OP wants, in terms of no storlyine quest. Go play darkfall, the only quests are title quest, theres no storyline to them, and they are 100% optional. THey need subs too.
You want the sandbox, and there are sandboxes out there that desperatly need subscribers. However people find issues still and dont play. So the sandbox games struggle, companies that make games notice which types of games do well and which are a fight to get subscribers. Let me tell you, compaines will NOT spend hundreds of millions of dollars to make a sandbox that a majority of the community seems to not want....get it?
MMORPGs are not for everyone, just like sport games (rather do that irl) and social networking games are not for me, i can admit it, its ok for there to be a game type not for you.
Well this is about the anti-themepark craze on this site.
You highlight a lot of the issues surrounding people here getting what they are asking for..... Perpetuum is a robot based EvE..."kinda lame" .... well its a sandbox, theres no lore quests to railroad you, theres no themepark aspect....Support it if this is what you want..... Same thing goes for Darkfall (the full loot pvp is over dramatized outside of the game its not a big deal)
So theres companies out there listening to gamers, doing what they want. They might be limited on resources since the big money isnt currently where gamers on this site want it to be. SO support it, vote with your wallet the same way 10mil wow players did and changed the course of mmo gaming.
Hanging out on a forum and raging (not saying anyone on this thread is) about how theres no decent sadboxes, while at the same time boycotting the sandboxes out there simply because they are not 100% perfect will get us nowhere.
Point is, if people really wanted the sandbox theme so bad, they would be playing the ones out. Remember wow had a shitty launch, and wasnt that good of a game, people supported it and now look, 7 years later selling more expansion boxes than what all the sandboxes out combined? Im no wow fanboi, that game really isnt for me long term, but i can see it for what it is, im not blinded by hate for it like a lot of people. Cataclysm is essentially the antithesis for what people here want, literally, and it did so well. Gaming companies notice which types of games are drawing the crowds and which are not.
Mabey quit being so picky with the types of games you want to see more of, because as it stands now, very few companies are going to risk any sizable abount of money on a sandbox, which is why all the sandobxes out there are done by smaller companies on smaller budgets.
Are they so meaningless?
Is that why theres a salad bar on every street corner? Or is that why theres a fast food joint on every street corner.....think about it before you jump to put downs with no substance.
You want sandboxes but dont want to support the ones avaliable, while at the same time, everyone is supporting the games you dont want. Your going to, and are, getting themeparks on every street corner.
Hehe.. no.. I want a liter of cola. Hahaha.. Farve.. funny times...
Anyways.. I see where you're going... oh help.. I need you to kill 15 wolves for me.... oh look , my so-n-so was kidnapped by evil dr. whats-his-name.. go find her.
What you're asking for isn't so much as a premise of setting but just kick the rest of it to the curb. Giant sandbox.
Basically, you're on this world/universe/place, you're given a BASIC premise or quick history of how the world is the way it is.. and they you let the players go. The players set up their own quests (say as missions or contracts or whathaveyou) and you basically shove off and let the world dictate itself via the players.
Am I getting the general gist of it?
hey, im right there with you.
im a paying customer of FE, and strongly considering DF ( you seem like a smart man, would you suggest it?)
again, not buycotting the industry til i get EXACTLY what i want, just positing my two cents to try to get my CRAZY ideas out there. i do, here, on a fairly regular basis, and feel more or less content to reach or be reached by the few i can connect with. THE GAME will come someday, since im basically just awaiting a more experienced, sober version of shadowbane.
a game doesnt have to be a WoW killer to succeed. just enough to be a career for the devs who give enough of a shit about their product not to dilute it down for the lowest denominator.
{Mod Edit}
sure, but im not wrong cuz like i sushi, and ill surely pay for it when i find it, and if my favorite roll isnt on the menu, im not wrong to tell people i wish it were.
sort of...but whats wrong a game getting launched, 200ish (or whatever) players hit the floor around the same time, some go north, some south etc, 2 weeks later, the north men have built a castle and farm the local cyclops for leather hides, where as the southerners have divided into warring nomadic swamp tribes who are perptually killing and hunting themselves and all invaders, using poisens from some local monster, or the easterners who have become naval merchant explorers...and the westerners are hardcore role players who play elves (shudder) and any new players have to contend with this mix, or organize themselves and fight to erect their visions etc etc forever?
i see currently lore based game memes as the enemy of such player created lore.
No more lore! Just give me mindless killing for hours on end (oh and no more crafting either!).
Ok, let's talk about what really will happen.
The north men will complain that they want to have friends in the south and why can't everyone get along while other north men will get bored with farming the local cyclops population. Others will say they built a castle but it's boring and there's no action.
the southerners are divided because i0wnz is griefing the "rightousDudz" clan and they are pissed. They then bring their friends and higher lvl alts as the conflicts escalate with much swearing and racial slurs (actual racial slurs) thrown about chat.
The easterners are bored because they built a navy but no one to pvp with their ships because everyone else is land based. So they grab some friends and start griefing the northerners which is pretty good except the northerners are prepared for a land war so the easterners start shouting imbalance.
The Westerners are hardcore role players who complain that pvp is ruining their stories.
Lots of shouts of "noob" and "go back to wow".
In Lineage 2 we had backdrop lore but no quests to really "inflict" story on players. Just players dropped in a world with loose goals. There was no grand vision or easterners and westerners. There was name calling, players flaming other players because they finally got killed and couldn't handle it, players making alts and cheating other players all under the name of ''we're spies" and essentially a lot of sophmoric nonsense.
Every time I see players start talking about "player's stories" I can't help but recall what really weren't stories but more like anecdotes in the best cases and people who had issues and were working them out in the internet in the worst case.
I'm not against player conflict. The most interesting game play came from player conflict. But so was a lot of nonsense.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Because "player created lore" is dull, predictable, and entirely devoid of creative inspiration. Players cannot be trusted to fill roles that are remotely beneficial to the global community, let alone those intended by developers. They will not form "castles" or "naval merchants" as you have described. Instead they will inevitably become wandering mobs of player-gankers, griefers and paranoid farming clans. Without a storyline, without a cohesive unavoidable plot to drive the world around the players, progression becomes nothing but a repetitive, agonizing grind to reach yet another level tier. Final Fantasy XIV is a perfect example of a game that featured virtually no lore and suffered enormously for it. What it sounds to me is that you're asking for a game entirely based around PvP, of which we already have plenty.