As long as companies like Zynga can make $600 million a year from selling "time accelerators" to their players, companies will continue to look to ways to milk the players out of every penny they have.
You can't blame companies for doing everything they can to make more money, when its their business to make money.
Blame the idiot players who spend money on stupid things.
Originally posted by and_rea Everything changed! Really a lot! Over last years, the pressure made on players on using cash shop is rampaging, until the point you now, in some games, need to rely on it even for the most trivial and temporary things.
I play games as long as I enjoy the experience.
If i'm forced to pay more than I feel it's worth without a viable way around, i will stop playing as I will not be enjoying it anymore.
Simple as that. Also, F2P games let you try for free. P2P ones, well... you usually buy a box and there is no refund.
I'm kind of open to both aspects of this: Cash shop and Subscription.
I won't pay a F2P game with a cash shop, as this means the cash shop is their ONLY source of income and therefore, they will milk it and make it so you NEED those items to play.
I would accept however, a game that is both subscription but also has some cash shop items. Why?:
Firstly, the subscription means the cash shop is just additional revenue, meaning they won't risk alienating players by making the items have huge influence on the game.
Second, i work full-time, so in my situation it's Money > Time. I can play a couple of hours a night most night, but rarely weekends. So i am not opposed to spending some of the money i have earnt to make up for lesser time i have free.
Think about it. Instead of grinding in game, i am having to grind out of game. Some players have lots of time to invest, i have (not lots lol) money to invest. When that changes, my opinion will change. When at Uni, i had alot more time, so wouldn't want cash shops. If i had to work longer hours, my like of cash shops may increase.
Time = Money
Edit: Currently, Fallen Earth has this setup. They have a few items on the store that are useful fluff items, mainly to do with storage. They don't give you an advantage, but they kind of useful. I.e., extra character slot, a few extra spaces in bank vault, a pet dog that has a few storage slots unlike the normal, a bike with better fuel efficiency, some cool looking goggles, a chicken mount (available in game)
None of that appeals to me to be worth any money, though i might spend $5 (£3) on the dog just because it would be cool roaming around with it.
I'm a premium Lotro player, once subbed not now...and I've spent 50-75 bucks only cause it was mad money. I do see how in Lotro F2P players can get screwed by the system. For instance, after the starter, free, areas the only options you have for free are Bree and Lone Lands..now...if you dont spend any money on game you find you need several things...Trait slot..95 points a pop...theres 3 I believe you'll haver to buy...then lets say you whip through Bree and Lone Lands...maybe you have 300ish Turbine points...whats next. Turbine followed the DDO F2P style but made 1 mistake...the prices for stuff, needed stuff like quest packs and all are way too expensive and nned to become more realistic in balance with what you can aquire/use for turbine points. And lets look at backpack space..OMG...unreal...495 to get 1 bag for account wide...but you fill bags fast, real fast in Lotro and the price is too way out for the turbine points gained. Bank space, same..shared storage for account..ungodly...at least make the Points one can earn in any F2P game realistic to the shop prices...make it cash heavy and it becomes a hardship...grinding wont help a disgruntled player at all. My 2 copper/isk/gold....
That's every f2p game. Easy at first, then harder and harder without going to the cash shop.
Of course it's a pain in the ass to earn the points for the stuff in game. If it wasn't, why would yuo go to the cash shop?
And if no one goes to the cash shop, how can they stay in business?
No one cares about the disgruntled player that's not spending money. They're just taking up bandwidth.
I'm kind of open to both aspects of this: Cash shop and Subscription.
I won't pay a F2P game with a cash shop, as this means the cash shop is their ONLY source of income and therefore, they will milk it and make it so you NEED those items to play.
I would accept however, a game that is both subscription but also has some cash shop items. Why?:
Firstly, the subscription means the cash shop is just additional revenue, meaning they won't risk alienating players by making the items have huge influence on the game.
Second, i work full-time, so in my situation it's Money > Time. I can play a couple of hours a night most night, but rarely weekends. So i am not opposed to spending some of the money i have earnt to make up for lesser time i have free.
Think about it. Instead of grinding in game, i am having to grind out of game. Some players have lots of time to invest, i have (not lots lol) money to invest. When that changes, my opinion will change. When at Uni, i had alot more time, so wouldn't want cash shops. If i had to work longer hours, my like of cash shops may increase.
Time = Money
ALL players have lots fo time to invest. That time does not have to be spent in a week does it?
If your character is measured in hours played, then it makes no difference if you play 40 hours in a week, in a month, or in 3 months.
Either way, when you have playerd 40 hours, you will have completed a certain number of quests, killed a certain number of mobs, and more or less be a certain skill level, or level.
You CAN argue that it costs you more if you don't play 40 hours a week because it will take you longer to max out your character, which means more months of paying a sub.
But at 15 bucks a month, less than the cost of going to the movies twice, is price really an issue at that point? IMO, it is not.
As long as you are getting 15 bucks of enjoyment, then you don't have to play 40 hours a week for any reason do you? Have fun, play 4 hours a week, or 40. It's up to you.
But the time doesn't disappear because you don't spend it on the game all at once. It accumulates and never goes away.
For the character the time is the same. A 40 hour character is a 40 hour character, when you play that 40 hours, in a week, a month, or 3 months, seems irrelevant to me.
In the other news i am playing LOTRO completely free. Never payed a dime since it went F2P
I even bought Mirkwood expansion with points i made ingame.
So if that continues and everyone played that way, LotR:O would profit how?
By people like me that simply do not have the time or find it enjoyable grinding out all those points. All the more power to them if they enjoy doing that. Not my cup of tea though.
This ^^ I'm currently subbed to LoTR:O because I enjoy the gameplay and the extras I get from subbing (skirmishes and extra auction house space immediately come to mind)- I guess I don't understand the issue with completely F2P games because I have enough willpower that if a game becomes too pricy or unenjoyable I stop playing. It's really not that hard. Games are not an investment nor are the characters we play in them, they are simply a pasttime.
The issue is that while sometimes its a matter of self control (OK, it always is) the problem is some F2P games don't reveal themselves as the monsters they are until a player has invested a signifiant amount of time in playing the game.
There's several F2P models out there and its not fair to point at LOTRO's fremium model, which is probably one of the most benign forms of F2P when compared to a more agressive (regressive?) model as seen in MMO's such as Runes of Magic.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The issue is that while sometimes its a matter of self control (OK, it always is) the problem is some F2P games don't reveal themselves as the monsters they are until a player has invested a signifiant amount of time in playing the game.
There are interviews with F2P developers and they state quite clearly they dont' expect to generate revenue from a player in the first couple of months they play the game. The entire business model is based on getting players emotionally invested in their characters, before nudging them to buy items in the cash shop.
If you do it to soon, they just quit with nothing to lose. A level 2 character and I need an xp potion to progress? Screw that, I quit. But, a level 20 or 30 character, and I need just a little bit more xp to make progress? Ok, why not buy just one xp potion? or just one small item to give me some more mana? And then more, and more, and more.
The issue is that while sometimes its a matter of self control (OK, it always is) the problem is some F2P games don't reveal themselves as the monsters they are until a player has invested a signifiant amount of time in playing the game.
But that's what I'm saying, the time spent in a game is for fun and enjoyment- it's not an investment by any means and shouldn't even be construed in that fashion. Even in MMOs everyone will leave a game eventually, you just have to be ready for that time to come whenever they change the game on you.
The issue is that while sometimes its a matter of self control (OK, it always is) the problem is some F2P games don't reveal themselves as the monsters they are until a player has invested a signifiant amount of time in playing the game.
But that's what I'm saying, the time spent in a game is for fun and enjoyment- it's not an investment by any means and shouldn't even be construed in that fashion. Even in MMOs everyone will leave a game eventually, you just have to be ready for that time to come whenever they change the game on you.
It's an emotional investment, not monetary.
Like, you are invested in a television series. once you're half way through the season, you want to see the rest of the episodes, versus you only saw one episode.
People invest in their characters. They begin to like them because they built them from scratch. That's the "investment".
But that's what I'm saying, the time spent in a game is for fun and enjoyment- it's not an investment by any means and shouldn't even be construed in that fashion. Even in MMOs everyone will leave a game eventually, you just have to be ready for that time to come whenever they change the game on you.
It's an emotional investment, not monetary.
Like, you are invested in a television series. once you're half way through the season, you want to see the rest of the episodes, versus you only saw one episode.
People invest in their characters. They begin to like them because they built them from scratch. That's the "investment".
The "fun and enjoyment" is the investment.
Ah, I see. I guess I've not become attached in that way.
Basically, subscription games must focus on long-term investment; they perhaps only start seeing profit after months/years. So it is in their interest to provide deeper, long-term content.
F2P have much more control and their focus is on making areas of the game where people are reliant on buying items. This isn't content, but progression/power.
I don't like the f2p for the simple fact that when you add it up you are probably going to be spending more money than had you bought the game and paid a monthly sub. If it was more comparable or less, that would be an inducement. But feeling manipulated into buying stuff to advance feels sleazy to me, even though I know they are a company trying to make money.
In the other news i am playing LOTRO completely free. Never payed a dime since it went F2P
I even bought Mirkwood expansion with points i made ingame.
I'm doing the same in PotBS. Only have 1 account (so no massive econ set up across 4 characters or anything) and I make enough by crafting to buy anything I like from the cash shop, and pay for ships (and given how much I suck at PvP I get through a lot of ships!). Hasn't cost me a cent since F2P.
In the other news i am playing LOTRO completely free. Never payed a dime since it went F2P
I even bought Mirkwood expansion with points i made ingame.
So if that continues and everyone played that way, LotR:O would profit how?
By people like me that simply do not have the time or find it enjoyable grinding out all those points. All the more power to them if they enjoy doing that. Not my cup of tea though.
This ^^ I'm currently subbed to LoTR:O because I enjoy the gameplay and the extras I get from subbing (skirmishes and extra auction house space immediately come to mind)- I guess I don't understand the issue with completely F2P games because I have enough willpower that if a game becomes too pricy or unenjoyable I stop playing. It's really not that hard. Games are not an investment nor are the characters we play in them, they are simply a pasttime.
The issue is that while sometimes its a matter of self control (OK, it always is) the problem is some F2P games don't reveal themselves as the monsters they are until a player has invested a signifiant amount of time in playing the game.
There's several F2P models out there and its not fair to point at LOTRO's fremium model, which is probably one of the most benign forms of F2P when compared to a more agressive (regressive?) model as seen in MMO's such as Runes of Magic.
Self control was never my proble.
And yes most of F2P games make money off people with no self control , but also from ones that are greedy and want to be better than anyone else no mater the cost.
I am not like that.
I am modest and patient. I enjoy what i have.
And there is so much to enjoy now - From LOTRO,EQ2,POTBS,Champions. AOC probably joining soon enough.
Comments
As long as companies like Zynga can make $600 million a year from selling "time accelerators" to their players, companies will continue to look to ways to milk the players out of every penny they have.
You can't blame companies for doing everything they can to make more money, when its their business to make money.
Blame the idiot players who spend money on stupid things.
I play games as long as I enjoy the experience.
If i'm forced to pay more than I feel it's worth without a viable way around, i will stop playing as I will not be enjoying it anymore.
Simple as that. Also, F2P games let you try for free. P2P ones, well... you usually buy a box and there is no refund.
I'm kind of open to both aspects of this: Cash shop and Subscription.
I won't pay a F2P game with a cash shop, as this means the cash shop is their ONLY source of income and therefore, they will milk it and make it so you NEED those items to play.
I would accept however, a game that is both subscription but also has some cash shop items. Why?:
Firstly, the subscription means the cash shop is just additional revenue, meaning they won't risk alienating players by making the items have huge influence on the game.
Second, i work full-time, so in my situation it's Money > Time. I can play a couple of hours a night most night, but rarely weekends. So i am not opposed to spending some of the money i have earnt to make up for lesser time i have free.
Think about it. Instead of grinding in game, i am having to grind out of game. Some players have lots of time to invest, i have (not lots lol) money to invest. When that changes, my opinion will change. When at Uni, i had alot more time, so wouldn't want cash shops. If i had to work longer hours, my like of cash shops may increase.
Time = Money
Edit: Currently, Fallen Earth has this setup. They have a few items on the store that are useful fluff items, mainly to do with storage. They don't give you an advantage, but they kind of useful. I.e., extra character slot, a few extra spaces in bank vault, a pet dog that has a few storage slots unlike the normal, a bike with better fuel efficiency, some cool looking goggles, a chicken mount (available in game)
None of that appeals to me to be worth any money, though i might spend $5 (£3) on the dog just because it would be cool roaming around with it.
That's every f2p game. Easy at first, then harder and harder without going to the cash shop.
Of course it's a pain in the ass to earn the points for the stuff in game. If it wasn't, why would yuo go to the cash shop?
And if no one goes to the cash shop, how can they stay in business?
No one cares about the disgruntled player that's not spending money. They're just taking up bandwidth.
ALL players have lots fo time to invest. That time does not have to be spent in a week does it?
If your character is measured in hours played, then it makes no difference if you play 40 hours in a week, in a month, or in 3 months.
Either way, when you have playerd 40 hours, you will have completed a certain number of quests, killed a certain number of mobs, and more or less be a certain skill level, or level.
You CAN argue that it costs you more if you don't play 40 hours a week because it will take you longer to max out your character, which means more months of paying a sub.
But at 15 bucks a month, less than the cost of going to the movies twice, is price really an issue at that point? IMO, it is not.
As long as you are getting 15 bucks of enjoyment, then you don't have to play 40 hours a week for any reason do you? Have fun, play 4 hours a week, or 40. It's up to you.
But the time doesn't disappear because you don't spend it on the game all at once. It accumulates and never goes away.
For the character the time is the same. A 40 hour character is a 40 hour character, when you play that 40 hours, in a week, a month, or 3 months, seems irrelevant to me.
The issue is that while sometimes its a matter of self control (OK, it always is) the problem is some F2P games don't reveal themselves as the monsters they are until a player has invested a signifiant amount of time in playing the game.
There's several F2P models out there and its not fair to point at LOTRO's fremium model, which is probably one of the most benign forms of F2P when compared to a more agressive (regressive?) model as seen in MMO's such as Runes of Magic.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are interviews with F2P developers and they state quite clearly they dont' expect to generate revenue from a player in the first couple of months they play the game. The entire business model is based on getting players emotionally invested in their characters, before nudging them to buy items in the cash shop.
If you do it to soon, they just quit with nothing to lose. A level 2 character and I need an xp potion to progress? Screw that, I quit. But, a level 20 or 30 character, and I need just a little bit more xp to make progress? Ok, why not buy just one xp potion? or just one small item to give me some more mana? And then more, and more, and more.
But that's what I'm saying, the time spent in a game is for fun and enjoyment- it's not an investment by any means and shouldn't even be construed in that fashion. Even in MMOs everyone will leave a game eventually, you just have to be ready for that time to come whenever they change the game on you.
It's an emotional investment, not monetary.
Like, you are invested in a television series. once you're half way through the season, you want to see the rest of the episodes, versus you only saw one episode.
People invest in their characters. They begin to like them because they built them from scratch. That's the "investment".
The "fun and enjoyment" is the investment.
Ah, I see. I guess I've not become attached in that way.
All the f2p games I try is OK so far but none of them is fun enough to make me pay more. Most of times I think pay game is more better made and fun.
Basically, subscription games must focus on long-term investment; they perhaps only start seeing profit after months/years. So it is in their interest to provide deeper, long-term content.
F2P have much more control and their focus is on making areas of the game where people are reliant on buying items. This isn't content, but progression/power.
I'm doing the same in PotBS. Only have 1 account (so no massive econ set up across 4 characters or anything) and I make enough by crafting to buy anything I like from the cash shop, and pay for ships (and given how much I suck at PvP I get through a lot of ships!). Hasn't cost me a cent since F2P.
Ascension - EU Mature, Friendly, Laid Back SW:TOR Guild now recruiting.
Self control was never my proble.
And yes most of F2P games make money off people with no self control , but also from ones that are greedy and want to be better than anyone else no mater the cost.
I am not like that.
I am modest and patient. I enjoy what i have.
And there is so much to enjoy now - From LOTRO,EQ2,POTBS,Champions. AOC probably joining soon enough.
Followed by GW2 ...
Whats more to say..