At least we can switch to 4 different builds on the fly, without having to respec. Makes losing the buffs between swtiches a non-issue.
Edit: Besides the hit point buffs, I can hardly tell the difference with other buffs anyway.
Yes the switching is very nice and I think it would probably end up being overpowered if you could buff and save while switching. I do hope that potion effects stay on you and buffs from others in your party when you switch though....that would be very annoying to use a potion that is supposed to last and hour and have the effect wiped with a switch if spec.
If I roll a Elementalist/Warlock/Necro, can I use the Ele pet, the necro spells and the warlock DoTs all at once? Or do I just play one class at a time with the option to change between them? If we change between them, can a healer buff themself, then switch to the DD healer with those buffs still applied? Likewise, could a Warlock spam DoTs, switch to Ele and attack with pet? I just can't figure out if this is a true multiclass, or just 3 seperate classes on one character...
It is not a true multiclass system.
Rift is broken up into 4 classes. Each class has access to 9 souls (which is another name for a skill tree). Each class can only have 3 skill trees activated at any one time.
Lets compare this to WoW (since everyone seems to be familiar with it).
WoW has 10 classes. Each class only has 3 skill trees. Each class can only have 3 skill trees active at any one time.
The result is that Rift has less classes, more skill trees per class, and both are stuck with 3 trees at any one time.
According to a Rift developer. Over 60% of the skill trees in Rift are DPS focused. Every class has access to pets as each class has at least one pet skill tree.
Skill trees, unlike in WoW for example, are less singular in their design and the game pushes the player to rely on multiple skill trees at any one time.
IMHO you are incorrect on this, here is why:
What defines a class? The skills/spells you get and only a small part of those, in most MMORPGs come from your tree, but in RIFT they ALL come from what you call a “skill tree”, thus making them not “skill trees” but “old school classes”, and that means it is a true mult-class system.
If I roll a Elementalist/Warlock/Necro, can I use the Ele pet, the necro spells and the warlock DoTs all at once? Or do I just play one class at a time with the option to change between them? If we change between them, can a healer buff themself, then switch to the DD healer with those buffs still applied? Likewise, could a Warlock spam DoTs, switch to Ele and attack with pet? I just can't figure out if this is a true multiclass, or just 3 seperate classes on one character...
It is not a true multiclass system.
Rift is broken up into 4 classes. Each class has access to 9 souls (which is another name for a skill tree). Each class can only have 3 skill trees activated at any one time.
Lets compare this to WoW (since everyone seems to be familiar with it).
WoW has 10 classes. Each class only has 3 skill trees. Each class can only have 3 skill trees active at any one time.
The result is that Rift has less classes, more skill trees per class, and both are stuck with 3 trees at any one time.
According to a Rift developer. Over 60% of the skill trees in Rift are DPS focused. Every class has access to pets as each class has at least one pet skill tree.
Skill trees, unlike in WoW for example, are less singular in their design and the game pushes the player to rely on multiple skill trees at any one time.
How is relying on multiple souls a bad thing? Seriously I don't understand how having MORE choices is bad...
Moreover, you're not forced to rely on multiple souls you can focus on one soul, two, or all of them... It's the choice of the player... again how is more choice bad?
Finally, the ability to choose from 9 souls, and to combine them in any combination, is EXACTLY what a multi-class system is, unless I'm mistaken on what a multi-class system is.
It isnt a matter of fewer choices vs more choices, but specifically what those choices are and how they relate to a defined mode of play.
Lets put it this way, say you are looking to buy a TV. You look online and find two websites that sell tvs. One has more choices but the down side is that the choices are all chinese knock offs. The brands are not well known and they are made of cheaper material, they feature less features. But...they do have more choices.
The other site has fewer choices, say just Samsung, Sony and Panasonic. However, each TV is of high quality, lots of detailed and unique features to go along with them and they are generally made from good materials.
So going off of this hypothetical....which website is better? The one with more choices or the one with less? Well if you are looking for something specific, like a good tv, then shouldnt the actual TV matter, not necessarily the choices?
This same logic applies to game features and design. In this case the choices given by each tree in rift are not as good as the well designed and layed out skill trees in WoW, which are much more unique between them than in Rift. A tree in rift will often feature the same mechanics and mode of play as a few of the other skill trees, as well as copy and pasted skills with different names.
There is a bit of give and take going on. The developers give up quality and design in order to give more options. When I am making a video game level in UDK for example, I can try to do an entire city block or just one alley way. Which do you think is more impressive? Well if I have a deadline, the bigger is not necessarily better. Why? because it means I spend less time to make higher quality meshes and scenes in order to fill up an entire city block. The result is a city block thats less detailed, lower poly, less well designed and over all most likely rushed. If I did the one room, i can make it look really good and high quality. If one were to show this level/scene to employers, the room gets you the job and compliments, not the rushed city block.
Game design works just like that. They cannot spend forever detailing each tree if there are too many of them, thus the quality goes down. I would rather have better quality and less choices (more meaningful choices) that result in different modes of play over the less varied and more "watered down" illusion of good choices that Rift offers.
Also you are forced to play multiple roles. IF you are level 10 and have X number of skill points to put into a skill tree...you cannot put them all into one tree. Why? because the way they set it up, the player's level directly limits how many skill points can be in any one tree. It is possible they might change this, but as it stands it pushes players to invest in other skill trees. Also, considering over 60% of the skill trees are dps focused, the player, if they want a well rounded character to stay competative in pvp and pve will have to use at least 2 souls lest they waste skill points.
You are wrong about a multiclass system by the way. WoW gives players the choice to put points into 3 different trees in any combination, does that make it a multiclass system?
Lets go back to Dungeons and Dragons which featured a real multi-class system. The word CLASS is important. A level 5 rogue can also level up as a level 1 warlock for example. Multi-class means two uniquely different classes, independent on their own, being used as one. If rift were to allow ALL souls to be accessed, meaning, a Warrior could invest in Mage souls or rogue souls, then yes it would be multiclass. The warrior is a class of its own though and can only pull from its own. The cleric is a class of its own and can pull from its own.
Its like taking a cake and cutting it up into 9 difference slices. If i tell you you have the choice of picking 3 slices of that cake.... does it make it a multicake? It means you are pulling from one whole, its all the same kind of cake, just split up to give the illusion of choice. Half of game design is giving the illusion of choice.
Each class has the choice to pull from its own pool of skill trees, not other classes.
If I roll a Elementalist/Warlock/Necro, can I use the Ele pet, the necro spells and the warlock DoTs all at once? Or do I just play one class at a time with the option to change between them? If we change between them, can a healer buff themself, then switch to the DD healer with those buffs still applied? Likewise, could a Warlock spam DoTs, switch to Ele and attack with pet? I just can't figure out if this is a true multiclass, or just 3 seperate classes on one character...
It is not a true multiclass system.
Rift is broken up into 4 classes. Each class has access to 9 souls (which is another name for a skill tree). Each class can only have 3 skill trees activated at any one time.
Lets compare this to WoW (since everyone seems to be familiar with it).
WoW has 10 classes. Each class only has 3 skill trees. Each class can only have 3 skill trees active at any one time.
The result is that Rift has less classes, more skill trees per class, and both are stuck with 3 trees at any one time.
According to a Rift developer. Over 60% of the skill trees in Rift are DPS focused. Every class has access to pets as each class has at least one pet skill tree.
Skill trees, unlike in WoW for example, are less singular in their design and the game pushes the player to rely on multiple skill trees at any one time.
How is relying on multiple souls a bad thing? Seriously I don't understand how having MORE choices is bad...
Moreover, you're not forced to rely on multiple souls you can focus on one soul, two, or all of them... It's the choice of the player... again how is more choice bad?
Finally, the ability to choose from 9 souls, and to combine them in any combination, is EXACTLY what a multi-class system is, unless I'm mistaken on what a multi-class system is.
It isnt a matter of fewer choices vs more choices, but specifically what those choices are and how they relate to a defined mode of play.
Lets put it this way, say you are looking to buy a TV. You look online and find two websites that sell tvs. One has more choices but the down side is that the choices are all chinese knock offs. The brands are not well known and they are made of cheaper material, they feature less features. But...they do have more choices.
The other site has fewer choices, say just Samsung, Sony and Panasonic. However, each TV is of high quality, lots of detailed and unique features to go along with them and they are generally made from good materials.
So going off of this hypothetical....which website is better? The one with more choices or the one with less? Well if you are looking for something specific, like a good tv, then shouldnt the actual TV matter, not necessarily the choices?
This same logic applies to game features and design. In this case the choices given by each tree in rift are not as good as the well designed and layed out skill trees in WoW, which are much more unique between them than in Rift. A tree in rift will often feature the same mechanics and mode of play as a few of the other skill trees, as well as copy and pasted skills with different names.
There is a bit of give and take going on. The developers give up quality and design in order to give more options. When I am making a video game level in UDK for example, I can try to do an entire city block or just one alley way. Which do you think is more impressive? Well if I have a deadline, the bigger is not necessarily better. Why? because it means I spend less time to make higher quality meshes and scenes in order to fill up an entire city block. The result is a city block thats less detailed, lower poly, less well designed and over all most likely rushed. If I did the one room, i can make it look really good and high quality. If one were to show this level/scene to employers, the room gets you the job and compliments, not the rushed city block.
Game design works just like that. They cannot spend forever detailing each tree if there are too many of them, thus the quality goes down. I would rather have better quality and less choices (more meaningful choices) that result in different modes of play over the less varied and more "watered down" illusion of good choices that Rift offers.
Also you are forced to play multiple roles. IF you are level 10 and have X number of skill points to put into a skill tree...you cannot put them all into one tree. Why? because the way they set it up, the player's level directly limits how many skill points can be in any one tree. It is possible they might change this, but as it stands it pushes players to invest in other skill trees. Also, considering over 60% of the skill trees are dps focused, the player, if they want a well rounded character to stay competative in pvp and pve will have to use at least 2 souls lest they waste skill points.
You are wrong about a multiclass system by the way. WoW gives players the choice to put points into 3 different trees in any combination, does that make it a multiclass system?
Lets go back to Dungeons and Dragons which featured a real multi-class system. The word CLASS is important. A level 5 rogue can also level up as a level 1 warlock for example. Multi-class means two uniquely different classes, independent on their own, being used as one. If rift were to allow ALL souls to be accessed, meaning, a Warrior could invest in Mage souls or rogue souls, then yes it would be multiclass. The warrior is a class of its own though and can only pull from its own. The cleric is a class of its own and can pull from its own.
Its like taking a cake and cutting it up into 9 difference slices. If i tell you you have the choice of picking 3 slices of that cake.... does it make it a multicake? It means you are pulling from one whole, its all the same kind of cake, just split up to give the illusion of choice. Half of game design is giving the illusion of choice.
Each class has the choice to pull from its own pool of skill trees, not other classes.
I feel it is important to go a little deeper with what you have here in comparison to Rift callings and souls.
Let's start with the forcing of multiple rolls. Players expressed that they wanted access to more souls earlier in the game during one of the betas. So the Devs gave more points total to the system but those extra points were to be spent in other souls. The reason you can't spend more points earlier in one soul is that the content is built around the original soul abilities. If you were able to spend the extra points in 1 soul only you would be to powerful for the PvE content at your level.
Moving on to Dungeons and Dragons. Yes dungeons and dragons you could be bard/rogue or a druid/shaman. The same is true in Rift. Also in D&D your character's overall skill when multi-classing was not as powerful as focusing on a single character but you get the variety of unique skills that came with more than one class.
Rift souls are very different within each calling. Most are based on common classes found in other games, and some have twists to them. To say a bard is the same as a ranger is just wrong and most D&D and mmo fans would laugh at you. Same with Reaver and Paladin....one is dot heavy and evil alligned shadow knight in most games and the other is a champion is good and has lay of hands and in some cases can bring back the dead.
Basically you are arguing for universal mixxing of the callings and souls however people want and Rift is not built that way. This will not change and I do not see a reason for it to. The souls within each calling are unique and set on classic examples and choices of souls should be limited within the calling.
If I roll a Elementalist/Warlock/Necro, can I use the Ele pet, the necro spells and the warlock DoTs all at once? Or do I just play one class at a time with the option to change between them? If we change between them, can a healer buff themself, then switch to the DD healer with those buffs still applied? Likewise, could a Warlock spam DoTs, switch to Ele and attack with pet? I just can't figure out if this is a true multiclass, or just 3 seperate classes on one character...
It is not a true multiclass system.
Rift is broken up into 4 classes. Each class has access to 9 souls (which is another name for a skill tree). Each class can only have 3 skill trees activated at any one time.
Lets compare this to WoW (since everyone seems to be familiar with it).
WoW has 10 classes. Each class only has 3 skill trees. Each class can only have 3 skill trees active at any one time.
The result is that Rift has less classes, more skill trees per class, and both are stuck with 3 trees at any one time.
According to a Rift developer. Over 60% of the skill trees in Rift are DPS focused. Every class has access to pets as each class has at least one pet skill tree.
Skill trees, unlike in WoW for example, are less singular in their design and the game pushes the player to rely on multiple skill trees at any one time.
How is relying on multiple souls a bad thing? Seriously I don't understand how having MORE choices is bad...
Moreover, you're not forced to rely on multiple souls you can focus on one soul, two, or all of them... It's the choice of the player... again how is more choice bad?
Finally, the ability to choose from 9 souls, and to combine them in any combination, is EXACTLY what a multi-class system is, unless I'm mistaken on what a multi-class system is.
It isnt a matter of fewer choices vs more choices, but specifically what those choices are and how they relate to a defined mode of play.
Lets put it this way, say you are looking to buy a TV. You look online and find two websites that sell tvs. One has more choices but the down side is that the choices are all chinese knock offs. The brands are not well known and they are made of cheaper material, they feature less features. But...they do have more choices.
The other site has fewer choices, say just Samsung, Sony and Panasonic. However, each TV is of high quality, lots of detailed and unique features to go along with them and they are generally made from good materials.
So going off of this hypothetical....which website is better? The one with more choices or the one with less? Well if you are looking for something specific, like a good tv, then shouldnt the actual TV matter, not necessarily the choices?
This same logic applies to game features and design. In this case the choices given by each tree in rift are not as good as the well designed and layed out skill trees in WoW, which are much more unique between them than in Rift. A tree in rift will often feature the same mechanics and mode of play as a few of the other skill trees, as well as copy and pasted skills with different names.
There is a bit of give and take going on. The developers give up quality and design in order to give more options. When I am making a video game level in UDK for example, I can try to do an entire city block or just one alley way. Which do you think is more impressive? Well if I have a deadline, the bigger is not necessarily better. Why? because it means I spend less time to make higher quality meshes and scenes in order to fill up an entire city block. The result is a city block thats less detailed, lower poly, less well designed and over all most likely rushed. If I did the one room, i can make it look really good and high quality. If one were to show this level/scene to employers, the room gets you the job and compliments, not the rushed city block.
Game design works just like that. They cannot spend forever detailing each tree if there are too many of them, thus the quality goes down. I would rather have better quality and less choices (more meaningful choices) that result in different modes of play over the less varied and more "watered down" illusion of good choices that Rift offers.
Also you are forced to play multiple roles. IF you are level 10 and have X number of skill points to put into a skill tree...you cannot put them all into one tree. Why? because the way they set it up, the player's level directly limits how many skill points can be in any one tree. It is possible they might change this, but as it stands it pushes players to invest in other skill trees. Also, considering over 60% of the skill trees are dps focused, the player, if they want a well rounded character to stay competative in pvp and pve will have to use at least 2 souls lest they waste skill points.
You are wrong about a multiclass system by the way. WoW gives players the choice to put points into 3 different trees in any combination, does that make it a multiclass system?
Lets go back to Dungeons and Dragons which featured a real multi-class system. The word CLASS is important. A level 5 rogue can also level up as a level 1 warlock for example. Multi-class means two uniquely different classes, independent on their own, being used as one. If rift were to allow ALL souls to be accessed, meaning, a Warrior could invest in Mage souls or rogue souls, then yes it would be multiclass. The warrior is a class of its own though and can only pull from its own. The cleric is a class of its own and can pull from its own.
Its like taking a cake and cutting it up into 9 difference slices. If i tell you you have the choice of picking 3 slices of that cake.... does it make it a multicake? It means you are pulling from one whole, its all the same kind of cake, just split up to give the illusion of choice. Half of game design is giving the illusion of choice.
Each class has the choice to pull from its own pool of skill trees, not other classes.
I feel it is important to go a little deeper with what you have here in comparison to Rift callings and souls.
Let's start with the forcing of multiple rolls. Players expressed that they wanted access to more souls earlier in the game during one of the betas. So the Devs gave more points total to the system but those extra points were to be spent in other souls. The reason you can't spend more points earlier in one soul is that the content is built around the original soul abilities. If you were able to spend the extra points in 1 soul only you would be to powerful for the PvE content at your level.
Moving on to Dungeons and Dragons. Yes dungeons and dragons you could be bard/rogue or a druid/shaman. The same is true in Rift. Also in D&D your character's overall skill when multi-classing was not as powerful as focusing on a single character but you get the variety of unique skills that came with more than one class.
Rift souls are very different within each calling. Most are based on common classes found in other games, and some have twists to them. To say a bard is the same as a ranger is just wrong and most D&D and mmo fans would laugh at you. Same with Reaver and Paladin....one is dot heavy and evil alligned shadow knight in most games and the other is a champion is good and has lay of hands and in some cases can bring back the dead.
Basically you are arguing for universal mixxing of the callings and souls however people want and Rift is not built that way. This will not change and I do not see a reason for it to. The souls within each calling are unique and set on classic examples and choices of souls should be limited within the calling.
Moreover, Your argument about Rift's souls not having the quality that WoW's talents have doesn't hold water either.
Each soul in Rift has 2 paths that you can use to get to the max 31point ability within each soul... A great example of this is the mages stormcaller where you can advance the tree with water based abilities, or through air based abilities. Other trees have this same dynamic.
This is also the same structure that WoW has... Each talent tree in WoW has 2 different paths to advance to the 31 point ability, one advancement is usually more focused on PvP the other on PvE but there are usually only two.... There are some exceptions to this rule on both sides, but on average both games skill trees have two separate paths to the 31 point talent...
Since there is no difference in quality of the skill trees it comes down to the quantity of choices... Which Rift wins hands down
I was going to address The other point about being forced to play multiple roles, but it would seem Riftsoldier has done an exceptional job of debunking that one already.
I feel it is important to go a little deeper with what you have here in comparison to Rift callings and souls.
Let's start with the forcing of multiple rolls. Players expressed that they wanted access to more souls earlier in the game during one of the betas. So the Devs gave more points total to the system but those extra points were to be spent in other souls. The reason you can't spend more points earlier in one soul is that the content is built around the original soul abilities. If you were able to spend the extra points in 1 soul only you would be to powerful for the PvE content at your level.
Rolls? As in bread rolls? I like bread!
Moving on to Dungeons and Dragons. Yes dungeons and dragons you could be bard/rogue or a druid/shaman. The same is true in Rift. Also in D&D your character's overall skill when multi-classing was not as powerful as focusing on a single character but you get the variety of unique skills that came with more than one class.
Sounds like you have never actually played D&D before. I highly recommend Baulders Gate 1-2 if you cant find your way into a pen and paper session.
Rift souls are very different within each calling. Most are based on common classes found in other games, and some have twists to them. To say a bard is the same as a ranger is just wrong and most D&D and mmo fans would laugh at you. Same with Reaver and Paladin....one is dot heavy and evil alligned shadow knight in most games and the other is a champion is good and has lay of hands and in some cases can bring back the dead.
Look up the dev posted chart on the focus of the skill trees. Over 60% are dps oriented. There is your answer. Notice I said skill trees, not classes or souls, because they are skill trees, nothing more nothing less. Going by your reasoning, each WoW class is made up of 3 classes since they are "unique" from one another.
Basically you are arguing for universal mixxing of the callings and souls however people want and Rift is not built that way. This will not change and I do not see a reason for it to. The souls within each calling are unique and set on classic examples and choices of souls should be limited within the calling.
/facepalm
You say "go a little deeper" but I havent seen anything in your reply that goes into the subject matter "deeper".
You are pointing out that the developers generally decided to give the players more skill points. There is no indication that this is only temporary, in fact no one really knows only that it appeals to players more. Due to the nature of roles and skill trees, are you honestly going to try and tell me that a player could function just as well if they only stuck to one skill tree? It is clear by the design of the game that it is not so.
Your use of dungeons and dragons suggests you might not actually be familiar with the mechanics. You mention a rogue and a bard, but i see avoid trying to use a rogue and a druid. Why? Because you are picking the naming conventions found in rift. If WoW were to rename their skill trees like rift, does it make them seperate classes? If the Balance tree found on the WoW druid were to be renamed Hedge Wizard...would it make it a seperate class? No. Its just a tree with name. The same goes for rift. Souls are not individual classes. They are skill trees for ONE class. Trion intentionally named them to give the illusion of marketing multiple classes even though that is not true. Smoke and mirrors man. You have to look at the actual design, not the naming convenient naming choices. The mechanics, the modes of play between each skill tree do not greatly differ from one another. Rift's cleric class is perhaps the most diverse of them as it can be a pet healer dps tank caster class all in one. It is one class playing with multiple archetypes, but neither one is specialized or deep. Do you get that?
"Basically you are arguing for universal mixxing of the callings and souls however people want and Rift is not built that way. This will not change and I do not see a reason for it to. The souls within each calling are unique and set on classic examples and choices of souls should be limited within the calling."
^ This just sounds like excuses to me. I am not calling for anything, and if you read my post you would have understood that. It seems you are offended some how by my post. If Rift were to have multiclassing it would feature all skill trees being available to all classes as an option. The ability to wear whatever weapons and armor they like. I am not calling for rift to be anything it doesnt want to be, but its not a multiclass game in its current form.
Many like yourself argue how more choices are good and its why rift is great, then when faced with this, you switch too, less choices are better. Which one is it?
If I roll a Elementalist/Warlock/Necro, can I use the Ele pet, the necro spells and the warlock DoTs all at once? Or do I just play one class at a time with the option to change between them? If we change between them, can a healer buff themself, then switch to the DD healer with those buffs still applied? Likewise, could a Warlock spam DoTs, switch to Ele and attack with pet? I just can't figure out if this is a true multiclass, or just 3 seperate classes on one character...
My last soul spec was a Ranger/Marksman/Sabotuer. I tossed bombs and traps, had cool ranged attacks and used my rangers pet. So I would say yeah you can set up a unique spec and benefit from that spec all at once.
Sounds fun. But are you doing that with one skill bar thats active all the time or are you switching between classes? I've been watching videos but I guess I just cant tell if people are switching between classes or what.
As it currently is, you can instantly switch between your class templates (assuming you purchased and setup additional slots). So unless they add a timer, which they've shown no indication, people will switch to the builds constantly during fights once they get used to it. Pretty dumb if you ask me.
You are pointing out that the developers generally decided to give the players more skill points. There is no indication that this is only temporary, in fact no one really knows only that it appeals to players more. Due to the nature of roles and skill trees, are you honestly going to try and tell me that a player could function just as well if they only stuck to one skill tree? It is clear by the design of the game that it is not so.
You say "go a little deeper" but I havent seen anything in your reply that goes into the subject matter "deeper".
You are pointing out that the developers generally decided to give the players more skill points. There is no indication that this is only temporary, in fact no one really knows only that it appeals to players more. Due to the nature of roles and skill trees, are you honestly going to try and tell me that a player could function just as well if they only stuck to one skill tree? It is clear by the design of the game that it is not so.
Have you ever played Everquest or any other game besides World of Warcraft where you were locked into a class? The idea behind limiting soul choice is so there will still be a need for grouping mechanics similar to those found in games that do not allow for multi-classing. The Holy Trinity is still in effect in this game when it comes to endgame and they want it this way. There is nothing wrong with the system.
Your use of dungeons and dragons suggests you might not actually be familiar with the mechanics. You mention a rogue and a bard, but i see avoid trying to use a rogue and a druid. Why? Because you are picking the naming conventions found in rift.
I mention a rogue and bar because they were in original pen and paper D&D and also in Rift. I am aware of the restrictions rift has on souls within a calling and that is why I gave this example. I could have given later edition D&D class examples but this seemed to work as everyone understands the Rogue and bard are different. One is stealthy and gets bonuses for attacking from behind while the other is good with a bow and in some cases...a pet.
If WoW were to rename their skill trees like rift, does it make them seperate classes?
Depends on what you name it.
If the Balance tree found on the WoW druid were to be renamed Hedge Wizard...would it make it a seperate class?
How about naming the tree Moonkin and calling that a class. The Moonkin class can't heal and can't tank and it's just a DPS class like the other 60% of WoW has.
No. Its just a tree with name. The same goes for rift. Souls are not individual classes.
yes they are individual classes with individual abilities. You can't summon a pet as a rogue soul (class) in rift. You can't turn invisible as a bard soul (class). But if you mix those two souls (classes) you can now turn invis and summon a pet on the same character which is the same as multi-classing.
They are skill trees for ONE class. Trion intentionally named them to give the illusion of marketing multiple classes even though that is not true. Smoke and mirrors man. You have to look at the actual design, not the naming convenient naming choices. The mechanics, the modes of play between each skill tree do not greatly differ from one another. Rift's cleric class is perhaps the most diverse of them as it can be a pet healer dps tank caster class all in one. It is one class playing with multiple archetypes, but neither one is specialized or deep. Do you get that?
You are incorrect. Maybe you have not looked deep enuff into the soul trees available but each one offers a very unique advantage over the others. Are there some similarities between archtypes? Of course....the same can be said for WoW. In WoW a balance druid and a mage are the same thing....ranged dps using spells.
"Basically you are arguing for universal mixxing of the callings and souls however people want and Rift is not built that way. This will not change and I do not see a reason for it to. The souls within each calling are unique and set on classic examples and choices of souls should be limited within the calling."
^ This just sounds like excuses to me. I am not calling for anything, and if you read my post you would have understood that. It seems you are offended some how by my post. If Rift were to have multiclassing it would feature all skill trees being available to all classes as an option. The ability to wear whatever weapons and armor they like. I am not calling for rift to be anything it doesnt want to be, but its not a multiclass game in its current form.
It is a multi-class in it's current form and the weapons and armor are a limitation put there by most traditional games to offset the powers of particular archtypes. It's just not your flavor of multi-class.
Many like yourself argue how more choices are good and its why rift is great, then when faced with this, you switch too, less choices are better. Which one is it?
I am in favor of being able to have defined traditional boundaries set by archtype. The traditional character rolls can exist and mingle within a set archtype, but once you break the barrier between the 4 callings you open up pandora's box and the PvE content gets effected.
I am not offended by your posts. We are just on different sides of the coin on this topic.
In this thread: Spin and bullshit trying to make Rift sound like more than it is.
Multiple skill-trees make for multi-classing, pfff.
Yes, they are skill trees, but the mix matching of those skill trees does offer a lot more choice than classes of other games with 3 set skill trees. With 9 skill trees or "souls" there are 504 combinations per class, multiply that by the 4 classes or 'callings" and there is a lot more customization than any other mmo that I know of.
(I am aware that you cannot mix skill trees of other classes)
As it currently is, you can instantly switch between your class templates (assuming you purchased and setup additional slots). So unless they add a timer, which they've shown no indication, people will switch to the builds constantly during fights once they get used to it. Pretty dumb if you ask me.
This is actually not true at all.
1. You can't switch roles during combat.
2. It takes 5-10 seconds (can't remember the exact time now) to switch to a different role and if you are attacked while switching it will be interrupted.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
In this thread: Spin and bullshit trying to make Rift sound like more than it is.
Multiple skill-trees make for multi-classing, pfff.
True it's not multi-classing in the traditional D&D use of the term.
You only have to look at the Cleric base class, though, to see what is possible with the Rift soul system. Clerics can tank, DPS, or heal (or a combination of the 3) depending on which souls you choose to specialize in. If that's not multi-classing then I don't know what is.
Not to mention that you will have 4 roles by level 50 to be able to switch between specs whenever necessary, bringing even more customization to your character.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
In this thread: Spin and bullshit trying to make Rift sound like more than it is.
Multiple skill-trees make for multi-classing, pfff.
Yes, they are skill trees, but the mix matching of those skill trees does offer a lot more choice than classes of other games with 3 set skill trees. With 9 skill trees or "souls" there are 504 combinations per class, multiply that by the 4 classes or 'callings" and there is a lot more customization than any other mmo that I know of.
(I am aware that you cannot mix skill trees of other classes)
I've never been good at math. Either way, there are far far far fewer useful, logical, combinations.
Warrior only has one true tank soul for example.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
If I roll a Elementalist/Warlock/Necro, can I use the Ele pet, the necro spells and the warlock DoTs all at once? Or do I just play one class at a time with the option to change between them? If we change between them, can a healer buff themself, then switch to the DD healer with those buffs still applied? Likewise, could a Warlock spam DoTs, switch to Ele and attack with pet? I just can't figure out if this is a true multiclass, or just 3 seperate classes on one character...
Oh hey, not sure if anyone mentioned this or not yet here, but the pets - well you can only have one up at a time. If your a necro/ele combo you can EITHER have the ele pet up OR the necro pet up but never both at the same time. Just wanted to make sure you knew that with your combo there. Oh yeah and thats not entirely a bad thing, sometimes its great to have a necro pet up for the type of mob your fighting, and other times its great to have the ele pet up.
In this thread: Spin and bullshit trying to make Rift sound like more than it is.
Multiple skill-trees make for multi-classing, pfff.
Yes, they are skill trees, but the mix matching of those skill trees does offer a lot more choice than classes of other games with 3 set skill trees. With 9 skill trees or "souls" there are 504 combinations per class, multiply that by the 4 classes or 'callings" and there is a lot more customization than any other mmo that I know of.
(I am aware that you cannot mix skill trees of other classes)
I've never been good at math. Either way, there are far far far fewer useful, logical, combinations.
Warrior only has one true tank soul for example.
Warrior has 3 tank souls. Paladin (defensive), Reaver (offensive), and champion (balanced).
All 3 have powerful abilties for mitigating damage and hitting multiple mobs to help agro. You can mix those 3 souls with others like beastmaster for a pet or a warlord for extra buffs for staying power and even a void knight for some powerful offensive spell power.
It is a multi-class in it's current form and the weapons and armor are a limitation put there by most traditional games to offset the powers of particular archtypes.
This ^^ is the best way to understand the reasoning behind the 4 callings. Cloth, Leather, Chain, Plate. Right there are your 4 callings(Mage, Rogue, Cleric, Warrior), and the BEST way to understand why they are broken down that way. Gear management. The multi-calss system is the soul combinations on each of the callings.
Warrior has 3 tank souls. Paladin (defensive), Reaver (offensive), and champion (balanced).
All 3 have powerful abilties for mitigating damage and hitting multiple mobs to help agro. You can mix those 3 souls with others like beastmaster for a pet or a warlord for extra buffs for staying power and even a void knight for some powerful offensive spell power.
I ran the easiest dungeon in the game (realm of the fae) and unless they were paladin spec'd they were a crap tank. Took way too much damage, couldn't hold aggro, etc. Sure you could say the people didn't know how to play, but I did it dozens of times with different people. I do believe Reaver and Warlord works as secondary souls though.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
Great, so I can use my Ele pet and buff it with necro skills while I dot the target with warlock skills, right? I just want a straight answer if we have have all 3 classes skills active at the same time or not and you guys seem to be beating around the bush for some reason...
yes, you can.
You can use all the skills from any soul that is in your current build once you have invested enough points in the tree to unlock the ability in the root.
And you can put all the abilities on the same set of toolbars.
(You get a whole new set of toolbars for different builds)
Go here: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html choose an archtype, grab some souls, and look at the bottom. as you invest points it will show you what abilities you have unlocked in the root as you invest in the tree.
As many points as you spend in each talent tree (souls) you gain the perks of the talents and unlock skills and spells associated with the soul.
So let's say you go 12 talent points Warlock, 10 talent points Necro, and 8 Ele
You'll have about 6 warlock spells, 5 necro spells, and 4 elemental spells. Some of these will be too similar for any need to keep them all out. A few direct damage blasts and with a global timer there's no real use to extras out to spend during cooldown times.
As it currently is, you can instantly switch between your class templates (assuming you purchased and setup additional slots). So unless they add a timer, which they've shown no indication, people will switch to the builds constantly during fights once they get used to it. Pretty dumb if you ask me.
This is actually not true at all.
1. You can't switch roles during combat.
2. It takes 5-10 seconds (can't remember the exact time now) to switch to a different role and if you are attacked while switching it will be interrupted.
Oh it should also be noted that you can store up to 4 different builds.
So if you really wanted to just be one soul, spend all your points in it and maybe just some extra in just one more tree you can. And store up to 4 builds like that.
Comments
Yes the switching is very nice and I think it would probably end up being overpowered if you could buff and save while switching. I do hope that potion effects stay on you and buffs from others in your party when you switch though....that would be very annoying to use a potion that is supposed to last and hour and have the effect wiped with a switch if spec.
IMHO you are incorrect on this, here is why:
What defines a class? The skills/spells you get and only a small part of those, in most MMORPGs come from your tree, but in RIFT they ALL come from what you call a “skill tree”, thus making them not “skill trees” but “old school classes”, and that means it is a true mult-class system.
It isnt a matter of fewer choices vs more choices, but specifically what those choices are and how they relate to a defined mode of play.
Lets put it this way, say you are looking to buy a TV. You look online and find two websites that sell tvs. One has more choices but the down side is that the choices are all chinese knock offs. The brands are not well known and they are made of cheaper material, they feature less features. But...they do have more choices.
The other site has fewer choices, say just Samsung, Sony and Panasonic. However, each TV is of high quality, lots of detailed and unique features to go along with them and they are generally made from good materials.
So going off of this hypothetical....which website is better? The one with more choices or the one with less? Well if you are looking for something specific, like a good tv, then shouldnt the actual TV matter, not necessarily the choices?
This same logic applies to game features and design. In this case the choices given by each tree in rift are not as good as the well designed and layed out skill trees in WoW, which are much more unique between them than in Rift. A tree in rift will often feature the same mechanics and mode of play as a few of the other skill trees, as well as copy and pasted skills with different names.
There is a bit of give and take going on. The developers give up quality and design in order to give more options. When I am making a video game level in UDK for example, I can try to do an entire city block or just one alley way. Which do you think is more impressive? Well if I have a deadline, the bigger is not necessarily better. Why? because it means I spend less time to make higher quality meshes and scenes in order to fill up an entire city block. The result is a city block thats less detailed, lower poly, less well designed and over all most likely rushed. If I did the one room, i can make it look really good and high quality. If one were to show this level/scene to employers, the room gets you the job and compliments, not the rushed city block.
Game design works just like that. They cannot spend forever detailing each tree if there are too many of them, thus the quality goes down. I would rather have better quality and less choices (more meaningful choices) that result in different modes of play over the less varied and more "watered down" illusion of good choices that Rift offers.
Also you are forced to play multiple roles. IF you are level 10 and have X number of skill points to put into a skill tree...you cannot put them all into one tree. Why? because the way they set it up, the player's level directly limits how many skill points can be in any one tree. It is possible they might change this, but as it stands it pushes players to invest in other skill trees. Also, considering over 60% of the skill trees are dps focused, the player, if they want a well rounded character to stay competative in pvp and pve will have to use at least 2 souls lest they waste skill points.
You are wrong about a multiclass system by the way. WoW gives players the choice to put points into 3 different trees in any combination, does that make it a multiclass system?
Lets go back to Dungeons and Dragons which featured a real multi-class system. The word CLASS is important. A level 5 rogue can also level up as a level 1 warlock for example. Multi-class means two uniquely different classes, independent on their own, being used as one. If rift were to allow ALL souls to be accessed, meaning, a Warrior could invest in Mage souls or rogue souls, then yes it would be multiclass. The warrior is a class of its own though and can only pull from its own. The cleric is a class of its own and can pull from its own.
Its like taking a cake and cutting it up into 9 difference slices. If i tell you you have the choice of picking 3 slices of that cake.... does it make it a multicake? It means you are pulling from one whole, its all the same kind of cake, just split up to give the illusion of choice. Half of game design is giving the illusion of choice.
Each class has the choice to pull from its own pool of skill trees, not other classes.
I feel it is important to go a little deeper with what you have here in comparison to Rift callings and souls.
Let's start with the forcing of multiple rolls. Players expressed that they wanted access to more souls earlier in the game during one of the betas. So the Devs gave more points total to the system but those extra points were to be spent in other souls. The reason you can't spend more points earlier in one soul is that the content is built around the original soul abilities. If you were able to spend the extra points in 1 soul only you would be to powerful for the PvE content at your level.
Moving on to Dungeons and Dragons. Yes dungeons and dragons you could be bard/rogue or a druid/shaman. The same is true in Rift. Also in D&D your character's overall skill when multi-classing was not as powerful as focusing on a single character but you get the variety of unique skills that came with more than one class.
Rift souls are very different within each calling. Most are based on common classes found in other games, and some have twists to them. To say a bard is the same as a ranger is just wrong and most D&D and mmo fans would laugh at you. Same with Reaver and Paladin....one is dot heavy and evil alligned shadow knight in most games and the other is a champion is good and has lay of hands and in some cases can bring back the dead.
Basically you are arguing for universal mixxing of the callings and souls however people want and Rift is not built that way. This will not change and I do not see a reason for it to. The souls within each calling are unique and set on classic examples and choices of souls should be limited within the calling.
Moreover, Your argument about Rift's souls not having the quality that WoW's talents have doesn't hold water either.
Each soul in Rift has 2 paths that you can use to get to the max 31point ability within each soul... A great example of this is the mages stormcaller where you can advance the tree with water based abilities, or through air based abilities. Other trees have this same dynamic.
This is also the same structure that WoW has... Each talent tree in WoW has 2 different paths to advance to the 31 point ability, one advancement is usually more focused on PvP the other on PvE but there are usually only two.... There are some exceptions to this rule on both sides, but on average both games skill trees have two separate paths to the 31 point talent...
Since there is no difference in quality of the skill trees it comes down to the quantity of choices... Which Rift wins hands down
I was going to address The other point about being forced to play multiple roles, but it would seem Riftsoldier has done an exceptional job of debunking that one already.
You say "go a little deeper" but I havent seen anything in your reply that goes into the subject matter "deeper".
You are pointing out that the developers generally decided to give the players more skill points. There is no indication that this is only temporary, in fact no one really knows only that it appeals to players more. Due to the nature of roles and skill trees, are you honestly going to try and tell me that a player could function just as well if they only stuck to one skill tree? It is clear by the design of the game that it is not so.
Your use of dungeons and dragons suggests you might not actually be familiar with the mechanics. You mention a rogue and a bard, but i see avoid trying to use a rogue and a druid. Why? Because you are picking the naming conventions found in rift. If WoW were to rename their skill trees like rift, does it make them seperate classes? If the Balance tree found on the WoW druid were to be renamed Hedge Wizard...would it make it a seperate class? No. Its just a tree with name. The same goes for rift. Souls are not individual classes. They are skill trees for ONE class. Trion intentionally named them to give the illusion of marketing multiple classes even though that is not true. Smoke and mirrors man. You have to look at the actual design, not the naming convenient naming choices. The mechanics, the modes of play between each skill tree do not greatly differ from one another. Rift's cleric class is perhaps the most diverse of them as it can be a pet healer dps tank caster class all in one. It is one class playing with multiple archetypes, but neither one is specialized or deep. Do you get that?
"Basically you are arguing for universal mixxing of the callings and souls however people want and Rift is not built that way. This will not change and I do not see a reason for it to. The souls within each calling are unique and set on classic examples and choices of souls should be limited within the calling."
^ This just sounds like excuses to me. I am not calling for anything, and if you read my post you would have understood that. It seems you are offended some how by my post. If Rift were to have multiclassing it would feature all skill trees being available to all classes as an option. The ability to wear whatever weapons and armor they like. I am not calling for rift to be anything it doesnt want to be, but its not a multiclass game in its current form.
Many like yourself argue how more choices are good and its why rift is great, then when faced with this, you switch too, less choices are better. Which one is it?
As it currently is, you can instantly switch between your class templates (assuming you purchased and setup additional slots). So unless they add a timer, which they've shown no indication, people will switch to the builds constantly during fights once they get used to it. Pretty dumb if you ask me.
...hoping planetside 2 will be good now...
Riftsoldier is right, you can be effective by focusing on one tree. Example: http://rift-planner.com/?archetype=3&soul1=3&soul1_talants=317,1_320,5_&soul2=1&soul2_talants=100,1_102,5_103,1_104,3_105,1_106,1_107,3_108,3_109,1_110,3_111,1_112,3_113,3_114,1_115,1_116,2_117,3_118,5_119,3_&soul3=5&soul3_talants=508,1_509,5_513,4_514,1_516,5_&lang=eng
Yes, they are skill trees, but the mix matching of those skill trees does offer a lot more choice than classes of other games with 3 set skill trees. With 9 skill trees or "souls" there are 504 combinations per class, multiply that by the 4 classes or 'callings" and there is a lot more customization than any other mmo that I know of.
(I am aware that you cannot mix skill trees of other classes)
This is actually not true at all.
1. You can't switch roles during combat.
2. It takes 5-10 seconds (can't remember the exact time now) to switch to a different role and if you are attacked while switching it will be interrupted.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
True it's not multi-classing in the traditional D&D use of the term.
You only have to look at the Cleric base class, though, to see what is possible with the Rift soul system. Clerics can tank, DPS, or heal (or a combination of the 3) depending on which souls you choose to specialize in. If that's not multi-classing then I don't know what is.
Not to mention that you will have 4 roles by level 50 to be able to switch between specs whenever necessary, bringing even more customization to your character.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I've never been good at math. Either way, there are far far far fewer useful, logical, combinations.
Warrior only has one true tank soul for example.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
Oh hey, not sure if anyone mentioned this or not yet here, but the pets - well you can only have one up at a time. If your a necro/ele combo you can EITHER have the ele pet up OR the necro pet up but never both at the same time. Just wanted to make sure you knew that with your combo there. Oh yeah and thats not entirely a bad thing, sometimes its great to have a necro pet up for the type of mob your fighting, and other times its great to have the ele pet up.
Warrior has 3 tank souls. Paladin (defensive), Reaver (offensive), and champion (balanced).
All 3 have powerful abilties for mitigating damage and hitting multiple mobs to help agro. You can mix those 3 souls with others like beastmaster for a pet or a warlord for extra buffs for staying power and even a void knight for some powerful offensive spell power.
This ^^ is the best way to understand the reasoning behind the 4 callings. Cloth, Leather, Chain, Plate. Right there are your 4 callings(Mage, Rogue, Cleric, Warrior), and the BEST way to understand why they are broken down that way. Gear management. The multi-calss system is the soul combinations on each of the callings.
I ran the easiest dungeon in the game (realm of the fae) and unless they were paladin spec'd they were a crap tank. Took way too much damage, couldn't hold aggro, etc. Sure you could say the people didn't know how to play, but I did it dozens of times with different people. I do believe Reaver and Warlord works as secondary souls though.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
yes, you can.
You can use all the skills from any soul that is in your current build once you have invested enough points in the tree to unlock the ability in the root.
And you can put all the abilities on the same set of toolbars.
(You get a whole new set of toolbars for different builds)
Go here: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html choose an archtype, grab some souls, and look at the bottom. as you invest points it will show you what abilities you have unlocked in the root as you invest in the tree.
As many points as you spend in each talent tree (souls) you gain the perks of the talents and unlock skills and spells associated with the soul.
So let's say you go 12 talent points Warlock, 10 talent points Necro, and 8 Ele
You'll have about 6 warlock spells, 5 necro spells, and 4 elemental spells. Some of these will be too similar for any need to keep them all out. A few direct damage blasts and with a global timer there's no real use to extras out to spend during cooldown times.
That's it. That's how it works.
You can't switch while in combat = true.
Time to switch = 2 seconds
Oh it should also be noted that you can store up to 4 different builds.
So if you really wanted to just be one soul, spend all your points in it and maybe just some extra in just one more tree you can. And store up to 4 builds like that.
For the more focused out there.