Why are MMORPGs so much about killing?

Elikal

Before you jump at me like "Elikal is going to poop another party!" hear me out. I am not a moralist or pacifist, while I'd define my ethics somewhat as "Chaotic Good" in terms of D&D, I am goody but not so much a "stick-to-the-rules". I can understand killing in games or MMOs are somewhat a "score", a bit like in sports.

What came to my mind these days is, how much narrowed the playstyles are these days. So my question could also be said as: "Why aren't there more MMOs with additional different playstyles other than being solider?"

 

When Vanguard was developed, many were excited about the Diplomacy part, and first it was promised to be a complete alternative path of gaming, and to many ppl it sounded very cool. Walking around as Diplomat rather than killer was a cool idea, but alas it never really happened.

Or one of the major reasons to love SWG: the many things non-violent you could do. I know a lot of people loved to be entertainers, myself included. It just added so much other things to do than killing. You could do very extensive crafting, be a harvester, trade, do haircuts for players, gather "pets" as Creature Handler, raise and sell every kind of animal, there were SO many things to do in SWG which were not killing, which was why I really loved SWG.

Or the LOTRO music: It always filled me with happyness to meet some group of players making some music event somewhere.

And one game I have to mention: Free Realms. Yes, its a kid game. But I really loved those non violent activities and while the game did not keep me, I wished many of these non violent activities were possible in my main AAA MMO of choice. Like being a real doctor and just healing people, or doing races or doing any of the fun stuff you could in Free Realms.

 

MMOs would have to do two things:

1) Include non-combat professions the way SWG did, as real professions not just hobbies.

2) Make quests with choices how you can solve it. Example: A group of bandits roams some streets in the wild. A soldier could just kill them, a "guard" would try to arrest them, a diplomat could persuade them or see they are just poor and help them to settle in an honest life. A spy could spy the rogues out for an ambush of the official forces. A strategist could lead them into a trap and magically ensnare them to give up. The quest would just contain "remove the bandits", and HOW you do that would be up to you entirely.

I mean, yes killing will always be a central part of the game; nothing to say here. But how much kill 2000000 of X has become an unquestioned norm these days is just unsettling, and in the end you are always just a soldier, a killing machine. So many helpless bears, boars and badgers... it is just tiring me.

Axehilt

Definitely agree it'd be great to see more of this.

Puzzle Pirates was pretty close.  It would've been plenty fun even without the "killing" that you abstractly did by beating other pirates.

Ometeotl

I absolutely agree with the OP.

whilan

Most people like killing things, when it diverts from that, it tends not to do as well.  It's a stress reliever.  Take things like bowling or pinball.  Do they do as well as say Call of duty?  Things like a tale in the desert. That doesn't do nearly as well as other games (though it does well enough).

There are alternatives, it's just people who play games generally like to see stuff die, for whatever reason.  It's just the general trend and until that changes, it will always be the same way.

SEANMCAD

I agree completely with OP.

The technology allows for such amazing variety of ideas but eveything is combat and usually fantasy based.

I would like to see someone pull off a mystery MMO somehow. The challenge is that once someone solves a mystery they post it on some site. But generally speaking you get the idea.

SEANMCAD

Originally posted by whilan

Most people like killing things, when it diverts from that, it tends not to do as well.  It's a stress reliever.  Take things like bowling or pinball.  Do they do as well as say Call of duty?  Things like a tale in the desert. That doesn't do nearly as well as other games (though it does well enough).

There are alternatives, it's just people who play games generally like to see stuff die, for whatever reason.  It's just the general trend and until that changes, it will always be the same way.

 The reason call of duty does so well is because they get funded by the U.S. military and the game gets the best of the best in technology.

Like movies,some gaming devs get 'free' military consulting.

Its less about demand and more about what is being supplied.

Oszy

you talking a game like myst online?

CarnifexRex

99% of MMO's follow one recipe.

 

Kill, loot, repeat.

 

I loved SWg for the very same reason, and its why Im waiting so much for CCP's WoD mmo which is touted to be social, and political, while still having combat for those who prefer it.  Heres hoping.

Rockgod99

I kinda wish mmos would bring back the non-compative classes. Like crafters and strange professions like explorers that basically created maps of areas for the regular adventurers too use as guides too dungeons and stuff.

bograt

i totally agree

i played SWG for a long time and keep going back to it, simply because i could own a store, a proper store selling, housing or guns or whatever, but devloping the store, improving the store, decorating it, finding and mining the best resources,  thats what made me love it, killing gets old

Tardcore

OMG! Elikal is going to poop another party! Where's my axe!?

Just kidding.

I have to completely agree. There are far more ways for human beings to interact with one another and a virtual enviroment, than just spending the day playing "whack a mole". I'm not sure I'd enjoy a game that had no combat features (and I'm not saying that is what Eikal is proposing), but it seems game developers could stand to take a look at expanding what they offer on their cyber-buffets.

Sadly from what I've seen from game companies of late, (Cryptic, SOE, Turbine, Blizzard, I'm looking at you), it seems that game companies are gearing up to give us even less for our money, and not more.

Justin83x

I also agree with OP. I think it would make a very great game if a game company could make a fantasy mmo where you could do anything  that you wanted in the game. Things like being a blacksmith only or maybe an innkeeper or some kind of gather. Fighting still be a good part too but I do think they need to start adding these things in games more. Also being able to make player cities and stuff like wagons or ships maybe airships like in FF whatever you could think of at all. Another cool thing make towns and environments be destructable as well even if it respawns after a set time that would still be cool.

Elikal

Originally posted by Oszy

you talking a game like myst online?

Hehe, nah. Killing as one of the core features is ok. I would like to see MMOs expand beyond that, add multiple ADDITIONAL pathways to quests.

Elikal

Originally posted by bblackwood

99% of MMO's follow one recipe.

 

Kill, loot, repeat.

 

I loved SWg for the very same reason, and its why Im waiting so much for CCP's WoD mmo which is touted to be social, and political, while still having combat for those who prefer it.  Heres hoping.

Whats WoD ?

Ralphie2449

cause its the most obvious way of "win"

Stupid pathetic ppl only play games to win aka "fun"=thats 90% of players...

Darkholme

WoD = World of Darkness

http://www.ccpgames.com/en/products/world-of-darkness.aspx

Still very early in development.

Based upon the White Wolf pencil & paper RPG: http://www.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/

fatenabu1

My response to the title of this thread is this.. many many moons ago in the land of Britannia you were part of a growing thriving community which was not just about killing, though some did it, you also participated in commerce, building, exploring, hunting, fishing, and trade skills. Though some did kill as they do in the realm of Earth not everyone had too. For I had a humble tailor who lived in small house outside of the town of Yew..

 

Now for a more serious answer, people don't care for the type of game  I mentioned anymore in general..

 

Dustin

Dhaeman

I think there's a lot of people who would love to see the kind of content you're talking about. It's going to be a way's off because it's harder to turn into a successful venture than crappy, generic quests. We'll need more creative world designers to appear than the ones we have in the industry now.

To actually answer your question though, video game RPGs have almost always been about killing for gameplay. Most MMORPGs have chosen to change nothing other than the offline/online component. They may even try to wrap you into a story but really it's pretty hard to accept the reality that you're the only hero to save this MMO world when another player is getting the exact same spiel next to you. Most major games are doing a really poor job at really making the most out of the opportunity to have so many players interact.

jpnz

Rather than go into all the reasoning by myself, here is an actual game dev/designer's perspective

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2633-Non-Combat-Gaming

Zarkanar

This is a good thread, and these types of things would TOTALLY make MMORPGs feel more like worlds and not just gigantic, violent battlefields all the time. Entertainers, crafters, doctors, all sorts of things would make games more immersive as well.

At the same time, we're all in this society that tells us to dominate the world and take, take, take, so that's what we find exciting.

Plasmicredx

I'm going to be very critical here on Star Wars Galaxies because it was mentioned. So just a heads up. An entertainer had no opposing force. What was the objective? - To just stand somewhere and press dance emotes for money? So the opposing force is you might not get tipped? That isn't a real opposing force. An opposing force is something that is coming to get you. The possibility you won't get tipped is neutral. You aren't actually losing anything. This is bad game design. There's no real objective here except to unlock even more dance emotes. Yawn! The gameplay of an entertainer was nothing spectacular. There was no real motive. It was more like a simulation game of the real world except you didn't have to actually care about your character in any way. If my entertainer didn't get tipped my heart didn't start pumping faster from an adrenaline rush like it would if someone just ambushed and murdered my character in an mmorpg.

In games where all you mostly do is kill, you care about your character getting stronger in order to not be killed by stronger characters. There's also the thrill of hunting down people or hiding from people and fighting another player takes different levels of practice, experience, and knowledge.

What did playing an entertainer take in swg? None of what I just described.

Games without an opposing force are like The Sims where nothing bad can ever happen and you can't lose. Games like that I have never felt like I accomplished anything. They never made me smarter or better having played. The only good thing you might get from The Sims is watching the little people do stupid stuff on the screen and chatting to someone about it. You might as well go watch a movie.

CarnifexRex

Whats the opposing force in genocide emulators? Even if you lose, you lose what? Temporary stats? A corpse run? Repair? All these things are trivial. Some people choose to emphasize the positive social interactions as opposed to the negative.

King_Kumquat

WURM Online

A Tale in the Desert

Just so ya know there's a lot of social minded MMOs out there. Some like Second Life and it's competition too that are about something else.

Just most of the RPG games are about killing because RPGs from their war-game miniture history were about killing. 

If I make you a mage do you want to A) study arduous books, collect rare herbs, spend years peering into the umbra? talk to a trainer who gives you a fireball key and go press said fireball key at he first goblin that looks at you funny?

It's an easy game mechanic. You're you, they're them, and you have to kill them. Not a whole lot of 'why' has to go into such a process sadly.

I'd love to see otherwise.

The King demands to see otherwise!

Elikal

Originally posted by Zarkanar

This is a good thread, and these types of things would TOTALLY make MMORPGs feel more like worlds and not just gigantic, violent battlefields all the time. Entertainers, crafters, doctors, all sorts of things would make games more immersive as well.

At the same time, we're all in this society that tells us to dominate the world and take, take, take, so that's what we find exciting.

Wonderful avatar.

Hm, it may be that our society does in part advocate this, as you say. But look at the thread. So many agree. How often does that happen here? I still think people are better than some think.

Take movies. movie developing Hollywood preaches for dedaces that "the masses" want simple popcorn movies; that too long movies are bad. That's why George Lucas always forced his stories into short 90 minutes, instead of daring some 3 hour drama. Imagine how much more story you could have told in SW in 3+ hours? And still, LotR DID make such long movies and people LOVED it. Same goes to complex stories. I just don't think people are that simple. Yes, some just like popcorn movies and McDonalds... but I am sure that many actually would like to see more, if it is well presented.

I just don't feel immersed a longer time than very few months in any MMO that is solely about killing and war, no matter how elaborate the war stories are told. In a way it just depresses me, makes me sad.

 

@Plasmicredx: Sorry, but as they say, you don't "get it". Some things are not to overcome some opposing force. That is exactly WHY I liked to be Entertainer. It was the mix of relaxing and socializing. I had 2 chars, one for combat and one Entertainer, and I spent about 30% of my game time on the Entertainer. It was fun. We had a band and some dancers, we made gigs and gave parties visited by many people. It was just fun. There was no opposing force. You improved over time by offering your entertainment services. As a MMO gamer you don't HAVE to do that; but I wish MMOs would OFFER such non violent pathways, entertaining, diplomacy, being a detective or spy, crafting, trading, city building... anything but PEW PEW PEW ad nauseam.

Plasmicredx

Originally posted by bblackwood

Whats the opposing force in genocide emulators? Even if you lose, you lose what? Temporary stats? A corpse run? Repair? All these things are trivial. Some people choose to emphasize the positive social interactions as opposed to the negative.

The opposing force is that it comes at you. What makes it fun is that it takes practice of experience and knowledge to win.

These things may seem trivial to you, but they aren't. All of them come together to punish you for losing. Cause you to wait 15 minutes to pvp again. Some games let you take their items and money.

Why is The Sims bad game design? Because you can't lose. It is not really a game but more of a decoration game. Mmorpgs where you can kill have all of this and that plus much more because of an opposing force.

If they make a game where you can play as an innkeeper that's just as exciting as fighting on a battlefield, where it takes practice of experience and knowledge, with an opposing force, THEN it will be a great game and I would love to play it.

nolf

While I feel that an effort to lessen in game killing should NEVER happen, an effort to provide alternative playstyles most certainly SHOULD.

Deep crafting, a good doctoring system (SWG was great with Docs and Ents), (again SWG image designer) professions to go to to change the look of your toon, diplomacy, spies, etc. would all be welcomed by almost any MMO community.  Hell SWG had shipsmiths, architects, smugglers & cooks on top of the normal crafting classes youd expect.

I think what has to happen for these kinds of things to be a success, however, is a truly player driven economy.  Without that, its all kind of a moot point.