Used to turn some of the bases solo when i played swg and never minded being ganked there, except when it was a case of 5 against one and being taken down by shots through the walls and celings with the witty responses of noooooooob and gaaaaay. Wasn't really the fact that it happened(as that was my fault) more who was doing it.
I don't mind getting ganked. It actually adds to the immersion for me. I frequently chase after those who've killed me in hopes of revenge. I'm playing WoW again at the moment, and if I'm on a PvP server out questing or whatever, and I'm in a RP mood, I will attack the other faction on sight regardless of level or numbers. There really is nothing to lose. If they decide to camp my corpse it is no big deal to me to log off of that character for the night and go play another.
The way I see it, the factions are at war ( my own lore if not the game's) and those lower levels will grow into larger levels and become a threat. Better to deal with them early. Nevermind that they respawn 2 minitues later, and that they will eventually grow to become a threat anyway (or how about the fact that they are no real threat in the first place and never will be.) When I play WoW, I'm Nalfein the undead warrior, not Joe Smith the cafeteria worker. The other faction will have to fight for the territory if they dare get too close. I'm usually the one that ends up dying. But it's still fun for me.
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I'm not trying to make you think ganking is good. You don't like being ganked, you think it sucks. Fine, I can appreicate that. But its not the same as griefing. Your definition of griefing seems to be any pvp that you don't think is justified and that is simply not the case.
Ganking that has no justification outside of enjoyment for the person perpetrating it, is very much griefing. As I've stated, if you are competing with other players over an objective, resources, etc that benefit you, or you are doing to to exact revenge over them having wronged you in some way, it's not griefing. If however, you gank another player who is minding his own business and is in no way impeding you or in direct competition with you over some objective or resource, and you have no justifiable motivation to gank them other than "it's easy and/or it's fun", then you my friend, are griefing.
The fact that your definition of griefing requires that you presume to know the intent of the other person without actually knowing it invalidates it. If someone kills you for no reason you've been ganked. If they target you specifically, killing you repeatedly, not letting you play or progess, then you're being griefed. The difference is huge.
In many circumstances it's relatively easy to accurately assume the intent of a player who is ganking.
If an lowbie is standing out in the wilderness, not actively competing with anyone else over resources, spawns, or anything else of consequences. Suddenly a high level player comes by, sees the lowbie whom he's never had contact with before or is in any way affiliated to them or their 'enemies', and kills him.
That's griefing, it really doesn't get any more simple than that. There was no motivation for the high level player to kill the lower level player who was minding his business. To think it's anything else but griefing is being naive. Stop deluding yourself into thinking that it's not griefing, because I assure you that a great many other people whom it happens to believe it's griefing as well. It's this exact mentality that you have which is why today's FFA PvP ruleset games are doomed to garner nothing more than niche popularity, because the majority of gamers don't want to have to put up with what they feel is griefing behavior.
As per your definition of what griefing is, that's actually harassment, which is simply griefing taken to the next level due to it being focused upon a specificly targeted player or players, and prolonged over a large span of time.
Actually I didn't agree. The statement 'pvp'ing in a pvp zone' is meaningless since pvp by definition can only take place in a pvp zone. I mean if you're in a non-pvp zone, how can their be pvp. I'm saying there is a huge difference between getting ganked and getting griefed.
When I mention a PvP zone, I mean a zone in which the main purpose of players being in the zone is to compete over some form of objective or resource. This does not necessarily encompass all areas in which PvP can occur between players. A game or server with a FFA ruleset is not necessarily an explicit server wide "PvP zone" for lack of better terms. A FFA ruleset is meant to allow players the opportunity to attack other players, and is not necessarily an encouragement to do so indiscriminately. That is the major misconception a lot of the 'ganker' PvPer make, that just because they can do something, that they are fully entitled and by no means in the wrong for perpetrating such actions.
The misconception is held by the player that is in a PvP-enabled area and expecting to be safe from PvP. By your definition, outiside of strategic control points, the world environment in Lineage 2, UO(Felucca) and Shadowbane are not PvP Zones. That is, without a shadow of a doubt, a false statement. Whether it makes any logical sense to relentlessly kill players who have no chance of fighting back is another story entirely, but the fact remains that if there are any misconceptions or delusions, it's on the part of the person in a PvP zone who expects to be free from PvP. Aion is a great example of this. I'd really like to level past 30 in that game. It's difficult because level 60's of the opposing faction attack regularly. I can dislike the game design and wish it was something else, however it would be unrealistic and irrational for me to fault others for playing the game as it was designed just because it interferes with how I want to play the game - a desire that is in direct contract to the actual mechanics of the game. Of the people that feel as I do, there are usally two courses of action that they take - some cancel and play another game, and others stay/pay and complain about the players who are playing the game as it was meant to be played. We can use the state of UO from over a decade ago all we want as an example of what the majority doesn't want, but it's moot as long as the contemporary game worlds are designed to facilitate and encourage the same type of behaviour.
These days, yes, most FFA ruleset games are made that way to cater to the niche market of players who want to run rampant and harass other players. I mention the UO scenario because it puts into perspective the issue from a viewpoint where many players of different gaming styles were all stuck in a FFA ruleset. The point being, that the majority of gamers greatly dislike being ganked, and consider it griefing.
As I previously said, your fringe gamers may like to gank or be ganked, but the vast majority of MMO gamers will outright avoid FFA PvP games, and even PvP zones, out of sheer dislike of the possibility of being ganked.
What I don't understand why people have to pick on players that are no competition to their character. Games that allow such are just broken in my opinion. So are the players that do that. They need to see a shrink.
If that is something Rift allows that it is broken as it stands right now too. It is so easy to make no reward for doing such.
As I previously said, your fringe gamers may like to gank or be ganked, but the vast majority of MMO gamers will outright avoid PvP zones, and even FFA PvP games, out of sheer dislike of the possibility of being ganked.
I don't disagree.
My problem is the group of players who join FFA pvp games and complain that it's "not fair".
I say take responsibility, find out about the games and make a decision based on the info out there. Not enough info? Then hold off.
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As I previously said, your fringe gamers may like to gank or be ganked, but the vast majority of MMO gamers will outright avoid PvP zones, and even FFA PvP games, out of sheer dislike of the possibility of being ganked.
I don't disagree. My problem is the group of players who join FFA pvp games and complain that it's "not fair". I say take responsibility, find out about the games and make a decision based on the info out there. Not enough info? Then hold off.
That's a different issue altogether, but that's basically what FFA PvP games have become. FFA PvP games are at their core concept, not necessarily bad. It's the players who take things too far that ruin the FFA PvP experience.
Let me elaborate...
The concept of two clans warring with each other over a strip of land for the purposes of resources sounds cool. You need a FFA ruleset to facilitate this in that any clan, or anyone, can fight over control.
The concept of being able to exact vengeance on someone who kill stole, or insulted, or otherwise wrong me or my friends, is also intriguing.
The concept of some players making a 'living' off of playing as brigands who rob player, while not something I'd do, I can also see the value of having it as a possibility in a game, and also requires a FFA ruleset to achieve.
The problem however is in the execution of all of this. It's the players who go too far that ruin the FFA experience. The players who gank other players several levels below them for extremely little to no gain.
In concept, FFA PvP has a lot of potential. In practice, it always just boils down to a small percentage of players abusing the bulk of the rest of the players, particularly low level players who have no chance of defending themselves.
I strictly avoid games like that because I've experienced it before. Realize however, that not all gamers have experienced the true nature of a FFA PvP game yet. I can very much see how some players could read about a FFA PvP game and think it's cool, only to become upset when some jackass corpse camps them outside of the new player spawn area for shits and giggles.
I'm not trying to make you think ganking is good. You don't like being ganked, you think it sucks. Fine, I can appreicate that. But its not the same as griefing. Your definition of griefing seems to be any pvp that you don't think is justified and that is simply not the case.
Ganking that has no justification outside of enjoyment for the person perpetrating it, is very much griefing.
As I've stated, if you are competing with other players over an objective, resources, etc that benefit you, or you are doing to to exact revenge over them having wronged you in some way, it's not griefing.
If however, you gank another player who is minding his own business and is in no way impeding you or in direct competition with you over some objective or resource, and you have no justifiable motivation to gank them other than "it's easy and/or it's fun", then you my friend, are griefing.
The fact that your definition of griefing requires that you presume to know the intent of the other person without actually knowing it invalidates it. If someone kills you for no reason you've been ganked. If they target you specifically, killing you repeatedly, not letting you play or progess, then you're being griefed. The difference is huge.
In many circumstances it's relatively easy to accurately assume the intent of a player who is ganking.
If an lowbie is standing out in the wilderness, not actively competing with anyone else over resources, spawns, or anything else of consequences. Suddenly a high level player comes by, sees the lowbie whom he's never had contact with before or is in any way affiliated to them or their 'enemies', and kills him.
That's griefing, it really doesn't get any more simple than that. There was no motivation for the high level player to kill the lower level player who was minding his business. To think it's anything else but griefing is being naive. Stop deluding yourself into thinking that it's not griefing, because I assure you that a great many other people whom it happens to believe it's griefing as well. It's this exact mentality that you have which is why today's FFA PvP ruleset games are doomed to garner nothing more than niche popularity, because the majority of gamers don't want to have to put up with what they feel is griefing behavior.
As per your definition of what griefing is, that's actually harassment, which is simply griefing taken to the next level due to it being focused upon a specificly targeted player or players, and prolonged over a large span of time.
No, that is ganking. Not saying its good or justified or that the ganker isn't a total asshat, just that it is gangking. If the player spawn camps the lowbie and hunts him non-stop then its griefing. You're essentially saying any activity that you judge as negative to you is griefing and that is a ridiculous claim. You're essentially saying that any gameplay in an antagonistic mmo that isn't positive for all involved rises to the level of abuse. If someone outbids you on the market have you been griefed?
As I previously said, your fringe gamers may like to gank or be ganked, but the vast majority of MMO gamers will outright avoid PvP zones, and even FFA PvP games, out of sheer dislike of the possibility of being ganked.
I don't disagree.
My problem is the group of players who join FFA pvp games and complain that it's "not fair".
I say take responsibility, find out about the games and make a decision based on the info out there. Not enough info? Then hold off.
That's a different issue altogether, but that's basically what FFA PvP games have become. FFA PvP games are at their core concept, not necessarily bad. It's the players who take things too far that ruin the FFA PvP experience.
Let me elaborate...
The concept of two clans warring with each other over a strip of land for the purposes of resources sounds cool. You need a FFA ruleset to facilitate this in that any clan, or anyone, can fight over control.
The concept of being able to exact vengeance on someone who kill stole, or insulted, or otherwise wrong me or my friends, is also intriguing.
The concept of some players making a 'living' off of playing as brigands who rob player, while not something I'd do, I can also see the value of having it as a possibility in a game, and also requires a FFA ruleset to achieve.
The problem however is in the execution of all of this. It's the players who go too far that ruin the FFA experience. The players who gank other players several levels below them for extremely little to no gain.
In concept, FFA PvP has a lot of potential. In practice, it always just boils down to a small percentage of players abusing the bulk of the rest of the players, particularly low level players who have no chance of defending themselves.
I strictly avoid games like that because I've experienced it before. Realize however, that not all gamers have experienced the true nature of a FFA PvP game yet. I can very much see how some players could read about a FFA PvP game and think it's cool, only to become upset when some jackass corpse camps them outside of the new player spawn area for shits and giggles.
Well, I suppose I can't disagree there.
I've had my share of players ganking me only for me to do the same to me and then I have to hear their crying and threats.
My only thought is that though the players can and do go far it does feed into the bigger picture where they are considered outlaws and are then targeted by other guilds.
Essentially they become the catalyst for conflict.
It happened on Talking Island (lineage 2) which was a bit out of the way (island) and griefers would camp the noob town and destory every new player there.
Eventually an opposing force went there and the island became a battlezone for a bit.
The exception was one player who announced that he was going to camp talking island and pk all new players so that they would quit and in this way he would force NC Soft to make changes to their game or close up shop.
But that's another issue.
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I do admit that I like hearing the, "if you don't like getting ganked, this game is not for you so GTFO!" mentality that everyone who plays these sort of games seems to have. All they're really doing is ignoring the greater problem and perpetuating their game's existence as a tiny, insignificant niche title that hardly anyone plays.
Then again, I think most people who play FFA PvP games actually like the fact that they're playing a niche title. I think that by doing so, they get some sort of satisfaction out of thinking that they are superior to the average MMO player.
Originally posted by Paradigm68 ... You're essentially saying that any gameplay in an antagonistic mmo that isn't positive for all involved rises to the level of abuse. ...
When there is no direct competition over some goal or otherwise gain, yes, it's griefing.
Originally posted by Paradigm68 ... If someone outbids you on the market have you been griefed?
No, because said market is inherently designed for economic competition, and there is a direct gain being competed over.
Which is why a high level player ganking a low level player for 'no good reason', is griefing.
first time i ever rolled on a PVP server was WoW on day 1. in the manual it said you cannot be engaged by anyone with more the 4 lvls difference - ah ah how wrong they were. After about 2 weeks of being ganked as a warlock i decided it was time for a re-roll and go back ot my lovely PVE, and i'll PVP when i good and ready.
Actually I didn't agree. The statement 'pvp'ing in a pvp zone' is meaningless since pvp by definition can only take place in a pvp zone. I mean if you're in a non-pvp zone, how can their be pvp. I'm saying there is a huge difference between getting ganked and getting griefed.
When I mention a PvP zone, I mean a zone in which the main purpose of players being in the zone is to compete over some form of objective or resource.
This does not necessarily encompass all areas in which PvP can occur between players.
A game or server with a FFA ruleset is not necessarily an explicit server wide "PvP zone" for lack of better terms. A FFA ruleset is meant to allow players the opportunity to attack other players, and is not necessarily an encouragement to do so indiscriminately. That is the major misconception a lot of the 'ganker' PvPer make, that just because they can do something, that they are fully entitled and by no means in the wrong for perpetrating such actions.
The misconception is held by the player that is in a PvP-enabled area and expecting to be safe from PvP. By your definition, outiside of strategic control points, the world environment in Lineage 2, UO(Felucca) and Shadowbane are not PvP Zones. That is, without a shadow of a doubt, a false statement. Whether it makes any logical sense to relentlessly kill players who have no chance of fighting back is another story entirely, but the fact remains that if there are any misconceptions or delusions, it's on the part of the person in a PvP zone who expects to be free from PvP.
Aion is a great example of this. I'd really like to level past 30 in that game. It's difficult because level 60's of the opposing faction attack regularly. I can dislike the game design and wish it was something else, however it would be unrealistic and irrational for me to fault others for playing the game as it was designed just because it interferes with how I want to play the game - a desire that is in direct contract to the actual mechanics of the game. Of the people that feel as I do, there are usally two courses of action that they take - some cancel and play another game, and others stay/pay and complain about the players who are playing the game as it was meant to be played.
We can use the state of UO from over a decade ago all we want as an example of what the majority doesn't want, but it's moot as long as the contemporary game worlds are designed to facilitate and encourage the same type of behaviour.
These days, yes, most FFA ruleset games are made that way to cater to the niche market of players who want to run rampant and harass other players. I mention the UO scenario because it puts into perspective the issue from a viewpoint where many players of different gaming styles were all stuck in a FFA ruleset. The point being, that the majority of gamers greatly dislike being ganked, and consider it griefing.
As I previously said, your fringe gamers may like to gank or be ganked, but the vast majority of MMO gamers will outright avoid FFA PvP games, and even PvP zones, out of sheer dislike of the possibility of being ganked.
There's been no disagreement on those points. As Sovrath stated above, the problem is with the people that know the ruleset ahead of time, still buy the game, and either expect it to be different or complain that it is the way it is.
This thread - and most others on the topic that have occurred over the past decade or so - are rather interesting to read as there is very consistent representation on both sides. One side spews insulting generalizations with the most vocal members displaying both contempt and intolerance toward anyone that doesn't play the way they do. The other side tries to engage in civil discussion, often showing understanding and acceptance of other views and playstyles. Exceptions exist on both sides, of course. It's worth re-reading this thread to see how clearly that has been displayed throughout all 12+ pages of this topic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I do admit that I like hearing the, "if you don't like getting ganked, this game is not for you so GTFO!" mentality that everyone who plays these sort of games seems to have. All they're really doing is ignoring the greater problem and perpetuating their game's existence as a tiny, insignificant niche title that hardly anyone plays.
Then again, I think most people who play FFA PvP games actually like the fact that they're playing a niche title. I think that by doing so, they get some sort of satisfaction out of thinking that they are superior to the average MMO player.
I think you might be reading to much into it or coloring it with your own preconceptions.
Sure, there are players in any game that are going to tell you that if you don't like it you can leave. Case in point, all the "go back to wow" responses in any new game.
There are going to be bad people in any game so I don't really buy that.
I don't think playing a niche game matters to players as they just want to play. As long as the game has some sort of population and can supprot itself then players would be happy.
are there players who wear the badge of "niche/hardcore gamer" as a point of pride?
Sure. But there are players who wear any badge with a source of pride, from role player to raider to pk'er.
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You're essentially saying that any gameplay in an antagonistic mmo that isn't positive for all involved rises to the level of abuse.
...
When there is no direct competition over some goal or otherwise gain, yes, it's griefing.
Originally posted by Paradigm68
...
If someone outbids you on the market have you been griefed?
No, because said market is inherently designed for economic competition, and there is a direct gain being competed over.
Which is why a high level player ganking a low level player for 'no good reason', is griefing.
How do you know there is no good reason? The problem is you define what is a good reason for other people. What if a char with tons of money outbid you just because they liked beating out people on the market and because they had tons more money than you, you had no way to win the bid? Ganking is a game dynamic you don't like. Griefing is abuse.
Well anyway since you agree with that statment in red, you're clearly unreasonably and overly sensitive so your conclusions can be dismissed out of hand.
I do admit that I like hearing the, "if you don't like getting ganked, this game is not for you so GTFO!" mentality that everyone who plays these sort of games seems to have. All they're really doing is ignoring the greater problem and perpetuating their game's existence as a tiny, insignificant niche title that hardly anyone plays. Then again, I think most people who play FFA PvP games actually like the fact that they're playing a niche title. I think that by doing so, they get some sort of satisfaction out of thinking that they are superior to the average MMO player.
That is indeed the irony about the whole situation.
Back in UO -- Yes I realize I keep referencing it, but it's because it's such a fantastic historical reference for this topic -- when the PvE ruleset area was added, all of the 'hardcore PvPers' -- AKA the gankers / murderers -- complained that everyone had left the old FFA ruleset lands. Basically they complained that they didn't have anyone to kill but each other, which meant no more easy pickings for them. They bitched up and down that the change "ruined the game", when the reality of the issue, is that they were actually the ones that ruined the game by creating such a hostile environment, that the developers were prompted to offer a non-PvP alternative, which players in-turn flocked to in order to get away from the gankers and murderers.
Originally posted by Paradigm68 ... You're essentially saying that any gameplay in an antagonistic mmo that isn't positive for all involved rises to the level of abuse. ...
When there is no direct competition over some goal or otherwise gain, yes, it's griefing.
Originally posted by Paradigm68 ... If someone outbids you on the market have you been griefed?
No, because said market is inherently designed for economic competition, and there is a direct gain being competed over. Which is why a high level player ganking a low level player for 'no good reason', is griefing.
How do you know there is no good reason? The problem is you define what is a good reason for other people. What if a char with tons of money outbid you just because they liked beating out people on the market and because they had tons more money than you, you had no way to win the bid? Ganking is a game dynamic you don't like. Griefing is abuse. Well anyway since you agree with that statment in red, you're clearly unreasonably and overly sensitive so your conclusions can be dismissed out of hand.
Please then, if you are so knowledgeable on what might go through a gankers mind, elaborate on what reasons, if any, a high level players might have to gank a low level player they have never before encountered (the player or any clan said player is associated with), are not in direct competition with over some goal or resource, and there is otherwise no real 'gain' from killing.
I'd love to know, because for the life of me I can't see any other reason than "because it's fun".
You're essentially saying that any gameplay in an antagonistic mmo that isn't positive for all involved rises to the level of abuse.
...
When there is no direct competition over some goal or otherwise gain, yes, it's griefing.
Originally posted by Paradigm68
...
If someone outbids you on the market have you been griefed?
No, because said market is inherently designed for economic competition, and there is a direct gain being competed over.
Which is why a high level player ganking a low level player for 'no good reason', is griefing.
How do you know there is no good reason? The problem is you define what is a good reason for other people. What if a char with tons of money outbid you just because they liked beating out people on the market and because they had tons more money than you, you had no way to win the bid? Ganking is a game dynamic you don't like. Griefing is abuse.
Well anyway since you agree with that statment in red, you're clearly unreasonably and overly sensitive so your conclusions can be dismissed out of hand.
Please then, if you are so knowledgeable on what might go through a gankers mind, elaborate on what reasons, if any, a high level players might have to gank a low level player they have never before encountered (the player or any clan said player is associated with), are not in direct competition with over some goal or resource, and there is otherwise no real 'gain' from killing.
I'd love to know, because for the life of me I can't see any other reason than "because it's fun".
The only reason I can think other than "causing havoc that's fun" would be to essentially start something with that clan in the safest way possible.
Another reason is to lure the clan into an ambush. Gank the low level player of the clan you want to start a war with. Wait until reinforcements come in and then ambush those reinforcements.
This won't work in every game becaus some games have a world that funnels you everywhere. But for more open worlds it is possible.
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I love how people get so bent out of shape when they get ganked, you guys are far too sensitive. if you dont like getting ganked dont play on a pvp server its pretty simple really. some of us like ganking and getting ganked! it adds spice to a game.
Man... We have a whole bunch of people in this thread that should never, ever roll on a pvp server or play anytype of pvp focused game.
Ever think that people just like killing others? Why attack them personally as if they have a issue in real life for killing a lowbie?
Yup, I don't play PvP focused MMOs because of the minority of 'griefer' mentality players who go around randomly ganknig and killing players for no particular reason. But I do enjoy PvP in several other forms, from FPS, RTS, and other such games, and I have absolutely no problem with being killed in any of those games.
And yeah, I know that some of people just like killing other players because the act of doing so is enjoyable to them. As per 'personally attacking' the people who enjoying doing such, really it's not so much an attack as it is an observation said person displaying a sociopathic tendency. But hey, I'm not dumb enough to try to convince someone who falls within the sociopath range, because you simply can't convince such a person that they are in any way wrong in their behavior.
Which again, is why I avoid PvP ruleset games and servers, because I'd rather avoid having to deal with people who derive enjoyment out of the causing misery to others.
Actually I didn't agree. The statement 'pvp'ing in a pvp zone' is meaningless since pvp by definition can only take place in a pvp zone. I mean if you're in a non-pvp zone, how can their be pvp. I'm saying there is a huge difference between getting ganked and getting griefed.
When I mention a PvP zone, I mean a zone in which the main purpose of players being in the zone is to compete over some form of objective or resource.
This does not necessarily encompass all areas in which PvP can occur between players.
A game or server with a FFA ruleset is not necessarily an explicit server wide "PvP zone" for lack of better terms. A FFA ruleset is meant to allow players the opportunity to attack other players, and is not necessarily an encouragement to do so indiscriminately. That is the major misconception a lot of the 'ganker' PvPer make, that just because they can do something, that they are fully entitled and by no means in the wrong for perpetrating such actions.
Take Ultima Online for example. It was a FFA ruleset in part as a social experiment to see if players would 'play nicely' together. Needless to say, a number of players failed, enough to prompt the developers to introduce a PvE ruleset to all servers. It was hardly shocking that after this happened, 90+% of players quickly flocked out of the old FFA PvP land and into the new PvE land. Simply put, players were sick of being 'content' for the minority of abusive players. It's not necessarily that they had a problem with PvP or the FFA ruleset itself, but rather they had issue with the fringe minority of players who made playing the game miserable for everyone else from their, here's the magical term, indescriminate ganking.
So yes, ganking is actually an extremely negative contribution to any MMO. Sure, your fringe gaming population may like to gank, or have the possibility of being ganked or fighting back, but it's obvious that the majority of MMO gamers simply decry it. Why else do you think that MMOs that have explicit FFA rulesets throughout the game, end up being nothing more than footnote MMOs with niche player bases?
I'm not trying to make you think ganking is good. You don't like being ganked, you think it sucks. Fine, I can appreicate that. But its not the same as griefing. Your definition of griefing seems to be any pvp that you don't think is justified and that is simply not the case.
"Griefing" is any activity in a game which is undertaken with the INTENTION of causing another PLAYER distress or purposefully detracting from another players enjoyment of the game.
I would argue that most "ganking" is, in fact, griefing. It does not neccesarly have to be griefing, as in some circumstances the "ganker" may have some other motivation. But if we are being brutaly honest, most ganking is pure and simple griefing.
Since yu can never know the intention of a person who's ganked you, you can't call it griefing. Only if their actions indicate their intentions can you make the claim you're being griefed, as in if a ganker camps you repeatedly not letting you play the game. If you're running thru a pvp zone and another higher level char sees you and kills you, then goes on their way, you've been ganked, but you've not been griefed.
But it is actualy the INTENT that defines the action. For instance, if some-one trains a bunch of mobs onto you on purpose then that would be griefing. If someone did it by accident then it would simply be an accident. A high level player killing a low level player, even ONCE certainly can be griefing..if that player did it with the intent of spoiling the other players day..that's all that counts. Whether you KNOW it's griefing or not is another matter.
However I'll point out that human beings make judgements about each others INTENT all the time...and often with very little information to work on...yet we do so with surprising accuracy.
So yes, I can say with fair confidence that most "gankers" are, in fact, griefing.....you can particularly note that with the pattern of behavior they evince.
Killing some-one even once, without an obvious good cause...is most likely griefing...at least in games that aren't setup for conquest style conflicts.
Man... We have a whole bunch of people in this thread that should never, ever roll on a pvp server or play anytype of pvp focused game.
Ever think that people just like killing others? Why attack them personally as if they have a issue in real life for killing a lowbie?
Yup, I don't play PvP focused MMOs because of the minority of 'griefer' mentality players who go around randomly ganknig and killing players for no particular reason. But I do enjoy PvP in several other forms, from FPS, RTS, and other such games, and I have absolutely no problem with being killed in any of those games.
And yeah, I know that some of people just like killing other players because the act of doing so is enjoyable to them. As per 'personally attacking' the people who enjoying doing such, really it's not so much an attack as it is an observation said person displaying a sociopathic tendency. But hey, I'm not dumb enough to try to convince someone who falls within the sociopath range, because you simply can't convince such a person that they are in any way wrong in their behavior.
Which again, is why I avoid PvP ruleset games and servers, because I'd rather avoid having to deal with people who derive enjoyment out of the causing misert to others.
so because a person would rather interact and attack players rather than boars that makes them a sociopath. Just because my idea of fun doesnt match yours doesnt make me a lesser person or clinically ill, maybe you are just taking these "games" far too seriously. yes i do like killing players and i like being hunted by players too, this doesnt mean i have a personality disorder its a game for god sake.
I'm not trying to make you think ganking is good. You don't like being ganked, you think it sucks. Fine, I can appreicate that. But its not the same as griefing. Your definition of griefing seems to be any pvp that you don't think is justified and that is simply not the case.
Ganking that has no justification outside of enjoyment for the person perpetrating it, is very much griefing.
As I've stated, if you are competing with other players over an objective, resources, etc that benefit you, or you are doing to to exact revenge over them having wronged you in some way, it's not griefing.
If however, you gank another player who is minding his own business and is in no way impeding you or in direct competition with you over some objective or resource, and you have no justifiable motivation to gank them other than "it's easy and/or it's fun", then you my friend, are griefing.
The fact that your definition of griefing requires that you presume to know the intent of the other person without actually knowing it invalidates it. If someone kills you for no reason you've been ganked. If they target you specifically, killing you repeatedly, not letting you play or progess, then you're being griefed. The difference is huge.
No it doesn't. It's the INTENT that defines the action. The fact that INTENT may not always be easy to discern at face value doesn't change the action... it just means that it may require some effort to discover.
However most of the time, INTENT not much in question....either you observe it through established patterns of behavior or in many cases, the "ganker" outright admits as much themsleves through chat.
What I see is alot of people trying to play Johnny Cochrane here to try to pretend anti-social behavior is somehow not anti-social behavior because it hasn't been witnessed by 30 nuns and a priest and you don't have a confession signed in triplicate.
Trust me, MOST of the time if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....it's a duck.
Most "gankers" are griefers...some may not be...but most are.
Comments
Used to turn some of the bases solo when i played swg and never minded being ganked there, except when it was a case of 5 against one and being taken down by shots through the walls and celings with the witty responses of noooooooob and gaaaaay. Wasn't really the fact that it happened(as that was my fault) more who was doing it.
I don't mind getting ganked. It actually adds to the immersion for me. I frequently chase after those who've killed me in hopes of revenge. I'm playing WoW again at the moment, and if I'm on a PvP server out questing or whatever, and I'm in a RP mood, I will attack the other faction on sight regardless of level or numbers. There really is nothing to lose. If they decide to camp my corpse it is no big deal to me to log off of that character for the night and go play another.
The way I see it, the factions are at war ( my own lore if not the game's) and those lower levels will grow into larger levels and become a threat. Better to deal with them early. Nevermind that they respawn 2 minitues later, and that they will eventually grow to become a threat anyway (or how about the fact that they are no real threat in the first place and never will be.) When I play WoW, I'm Nalfein the undead warrior, not Joe Smith the cafeteria worker. The other faction will have to fight for the territory if they dare get too close. I'm usually the one that ends up dying. But it's still fun for me.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
In many circumstances it's relatively easy to accurately assume the intent of a player who is ganking.
If an lowbie is standing out in the wilderness, not actively competing with anyone else over resources, spawns, or anything else of consequences. Suddenly a high level player comes by, sees the lowbie whom he's never had contact with before or is in any way affiliated to them or their 'enemies', and kills him.
That's griefing, it really doesn't get any more simple than that. There was no motivation for the high level player to kill the lower level player who was minding his business. To think it's anything else but griefing is being naive. Stop deluding yourself into thinking that it's not griefing, because I assure you that a great many other people whom it happens to believe it's griefing as well. It's this exact mentality that you have which is why today's FFA PvP ruleset games are doomed to garner nothing more than niche popularity, because the majority of gamers don't want to have to put up with what they feel is griefing behavior.
As per your definition of what griefing is, that's actually harassment, which is simply griefing taken to the next level due to it being focused upon a specificly targeted player or players, and prolonged over a large span of time.
These days, yes, most FFA ruleset games are made that way to cater to the niche market of players who want to run rampant and harass other players. I mention the UO scenario because it puts into perspective the issue from a viewpoint where many players of different gaming styles were all stuck in a FFA ruleset. The point being, that the majority of gamers greatly dislike being ganked, and consider it griefing.
As I previously said, your fringe gamers may like to gank or be ganked, but the vast majority of MMO gamers will outright avoid FFA PvP games, and even PvP zones, out of sheer dislike of the possibility of being ganked.
What I don't understand why people have to pick on players that are no competition to their character. Games that allow such are just broken in my opinion. So are the players that do that. They need to see a shrink.
If that is something Rift allows that it is broken as it stands right now too. It is so easy to make no reward for doing such.
I don't disagree.
My problem is the group of players who join FFA pvp games and complain that it's "not fair".
I say take responsibility, find out about the games and make a decision based on the info out there. Not enough info? Then hold off.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That's a different issue altogether, but that's basically what FFA PvP games have become. FFA PvP games are at their core concept, not necessarily bad. It's the players who take things too far that ruin the FFA PvP experience.
Let me elaborate...
The concept of two clans warring with each other over a strip of land for the purposes of resources sounds cool. You need a FFA ruleset to facilitate this in that any clan, or anyone, can fight over control.
The concept of being able to exact vengeance on someone who kill stole, or insulted, or otherwise wrong me or my friends, is also intriguing.
The concept of some players making a 'living' off of playing as brigands who rob player, while not something I'd do, I can also see the value of having it as a possibility in a game, and also requires a FFA ruleset to achieve.
The problem however is in the execution of all of this. It's the players who go too far that ruin the FFA experience. The players who gank other players several levels below them for extremely little to no gain.
In concept, FFA PvP has a lot of potential. In practice, it always just boils down to a small percentage of players abusing the bulk of the rest of the players, particularly low level players who have no chance of defending themselves.
I strictly avoid games like that because I've experienced it before. Realize however, that not all gamers have experienced the true nature of a FFA PvP game yet. I can very much see how some players could read about a FFA PvP game and think it's cool, only to become upset when some jackass corpse camps them outside of the new player spawn area for shits and giggles.
No, that is ganking. Not saying its good or justified or that the ganker isn't a total asshat, just that it is gangking. If the player spawn camps the lowbie and hunts him non-stop then its griefing. You're essentially saying any activity that you judge as negative to you is griefing and that is a ridiculous claim. You're essentially saying that any gameplay in an antagonistic mmo that isn't positive for all involved rises to the level of abuse. If someone outbids you on the market have you been griefed?
Well, I suppose I can't disagree there.
I've had my share of players ganking me only for me to do the same to me and then I have to hear their crying and threats.
My only thought is that though the players can and do go far it does feed into the bigger picture where they are considered outlaws and are then targeted by other guilds.
Essentially they become the catalyst for conflict.
It happened on Talking Island (lineage 2) which was a bit out of the way (island) and griefers would camp the noob town and destory every new player there.
Eventually an opposing force went there and the island became a battlezone for a bit.
The exception was one player who announced that he was going to camp talking island and pk all new players so that they would quit and in this way he would force NC Soft to make changes to their game or close up shop.
But that's another issue.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I do admit that I like hearing the, "if you don't like getting ganked, this game is not for you so GTFO!" mentality that everyone who plays these sort of games seems to have. All they're really doing is ignoring the greater problem and perpetuating their game's existence as a tiny, insignificant niche title that hardly anyone plays.
Then again, I think most people who play FFA PvP games actually like the fact that they're playing a niche title. I think that by doing so, they get some sort of satisfaction out of thinking that they are superior to the average MMO player.
When there is no direct competition over some goal or otherwise gain, yes, it's griefing.
No, because said market is inherently designed for economic competition, and there is a direct gain being competed over.
Which is why a high level player ganking a low level player for 'no good reason', is griefing.
first time i ever rolled on a PVP server was WoW on day 1. in the manual it said you cannot be engaged by anyone with more the 4 lvls difference - ah ah how wrong they were. After about 2 weeks of being ganked as a warlock i decided it was time for a re-roll and go back ot my lovely PVE, and i'll PVP when i good and ready.
There's been no disagreement on those points. As Sovrath stated above, the problem is with the people that know the ruleset ahead of time, still buy the game, and either expect it to be different or complain that it is the way it is.
This thread - and most others on the topic that have occurred over the past decade or so - are rather interesting to read as there is very consistent representation on both sides. One side spews insulting generalizations with the most vocal members displaying both contempt and intolerance toward anyone that doesn't play the way they do. The other side tries to engage in civil discussion, often showing understanding and acceptance of other views and playstyles. Exceptions exist on both sides, of course. It's worth re-reading this thread to see how clearly that has been displayed throughout all 12+ pages of this topic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think you might be reading to much into it or coloring it with your own preconceptions.
Sure, there are players in any game that are going to tell you that if you don't like it you can leave. Case in point, all the "go back to wow" responses in any new game.
There are going to be bad people in any game so I don't really buy that.
I don't think playing a niche game matters to players as they just want to play. As long as the game has some sort of population and can supprot itself then players would be happy.
are there players who wear the badge of "niche/hardcore gamer" as a point of pride?
Sure. But there are players who wear any badge with a source of pride, from role player to raider to pk'er.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Ganking is the main reason I quit Aion nor I play in WoW's PvP server.
I have limited game time and I do not intend to waste it on respawn timer.
Ready for GW2!!!
How do you know there is no good reason? The problem is you define what is a good reason for other people. What if a char with tons of money outbid you just because they liked beating out people on the market and because they had tons more money than you, you had no way to win the bid? Ganking is a game dynamic you don't like. Griefing is abuse.
Well anyway since you agree with that statment in red, you're clearly unreasonably and overly sensitive so your conclusions can be dismissed out of hand.
That is indeed the irony about the whole situation.
Back in UO -- Yes I realize I keep referencing it, but it's because it's such a fantastic historical reference for this topic -- when the PvE ruleset area was added, all of the 'hardcore PvPers' -- AKA the gankers / murderers -- complained that everyone had left the old FFA ruleset lands. Basically they complained that they didn't have anyone to kill but each other, which meant no more easy pickings for them. They bitched up and down that the change "ruined the game", when the reality of the issue, is that they were actually the ones that ruined the game by creating such a hostile environment, that the developers were prompted to offer a non-PvP alternative, which players in-turn flocked to in order to get away from the gankers and murderers.
Please then, if you are so knowledgeable on what might go through a gankers mind, elaborate on what reasons, if any, a high level players might have to gank a low level player they have never before encountered (the player or any clan said player is associated with), are not in direct competition with over some goal or resource, and there is otherwise no real 'gain' from killing.
I'd love to know, because for the life of me I can't see any other reason than "because it's fun".
The only reason I can think other than "causing havoc that's fun" would be to essentially start something with that clan in the safest way possible.
Another reason is to lure the clan into an ambush. Gank the low level player of the clan you want to start a war with. Wait until reinforcements come in and then ambush those reinforcements.
This won't work in every game becaus some games have a world that funnels you everywhere. But for more open worlds it is possible.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Man... We have a whole bunch of people in this thread that should never, ever roll on a pvp server or play anytype of pvp focused game.
Ever think that people just like killing others? Why attack them personally as if they have a issue in real life for killing a lowbie?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I love how people get so bent out of shape when they get ganked, you guys are far too sensitive. if you dont like getting ganked dont play on a pvp server its pretty simple really. some of us like ganking and getting ganked! it adds spice to a game.
Yup, I don't play PvP focused MMOs because of the minority of 'griefer' mentality players who go around randomly ganknig and killing players for no particular reason. But I do enjoy PvP in several other forms, from FPS, RTS, and other such games, and I have absolutely no problem with being killed in any of those games.
And yeah, I know that some of people just like killing other players because the act of doing so is enjoyable to them. As per 'personally attacking' the people who enjoying doing such, really it's not so much an attack as it is an observation said person displaying a sociopathic tendency. But hey, I'm not dumb enough to try to convince someone who falls within the sociopath range, because you simply can't convince such a person that they are in any way wrong in their behavior.
Which again, is why I avoid PvP ruleset games and servers, because I'd rather avoid having to deal with people who derive enjoyment out of the causing misery to others.
But it is actualy the INTENT that defines the action. For instance, if some-one trains a bunch of mobs onto you on purpose then that would be griefing. If someone did it by accident then it would simply be an accident. A high level player killing a low level player, even ONCE certainly can be griefing..if that player did it with the intent of spoiling the other players day..that's all that counts. Whether you KNOW it's griefing or not is another matter.
However I'll point out that human beings make judgements about each others INTENT all the time...and often with very little information to work on...yet we do so with surprising accuracy.
So yes, I can say with fair confidence that most "gankers" are, in fact, griefing.....you can particularly note that with the pattern of behavior they evince.
Killing some-one even once, without an obvious good cause...is most likely griefing...at least in games that aren't setup for conquest style conflicts.
so because a person would rather interact and attack players rather than boars that makes them a sociopath. Just because my idea of fun doesnt match yours doesnt make me a lesser person or clinically ill, maybe you are just taking these "games" far too seriously. yes i do like killing players and i like being hunted by players too, this doesnt mean i have a personality disorder its a game for god sake.
No it doesn't. It's the INTENT that defines the action. The fact that INTENT may not always be easy to discern at face value doesn't change the action... it just means that it may require some effort to discover.
However most of the time, INTENT not much in question....either you observe it through established patterns of behavior or in many cases, the "ganker" outright admits as much themsleves through chat.
What I see is alot of people trying to play Johnny Cochrane here to try to pretend anti-social behavior is somehow not anti-social behavior because it hasn't been witnessed by 30 nuns and a priest and you don't have a confession signed in triplicate.
Trust me, MOST of the time if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....it's a duck.
Most "gankers" are griefers...some may not be...but most are.