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Get off my damn lawn you whippersnappers!!!
Madimorga
Member UncommonPosts: 1,920
Kids today! Instant gratification, never had to download anything using dialup through the snow uphill both ways! Get off my MMO lawn you whippersnappers! Take your superior reflexes and your trash talk elsewhere, granny needs some grownup time on some grownup servers so that when some internet idiot pulls a driveby gank, granny can give the ganker the cussing out he deserves without being worried about his parents screaming for the game company to drop the ban hammer on her.
This thread created by request. Sort of! 
But really, what is wrong with adult servers and niche gameplay? Lock us old folks away and you won't have to hear us complain about kids ruining our games.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Comments
Axehilt posted this yesterday. I love it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
Venge
The thing about my generation is that the quick relfex guys where playing donkey kong while we were playing D&D. MMOs come from the D&D background and RPG and Donky Kong are two radically different players.
its more about that then it is age.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The one and only problem for developers is money. Building a new game from scratch is expensive. Having different versions of the same game increases the running costs of the game. Games not only have to turn a profit, they have to turn enough of a profit to allow future development not only on that game, but others from the same developer.
There are some other issues, like splitting your population. If you split the adults and kids into different servers, your population on each server is smaller. The population size can affect how fun the game is. You might have to institute child protection measures on the non-adult server (like Wizard 101). It's doable, but it would have to be worth it for the developer and the publisher. Which brings us back to money.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You make it sound like D&D and anything even remotely approaching athleticism like quick reflexes are mutually exclusive.
Please stop perpetuating the myth of asthamtic basement dwelling neckbeard D&D players with coke bottle glasses and pencil necks.
Believe it or not, it's perfectly possible to play D&D, CRPGs, and MMORPGs (Even the old style) while having reflexes sharp enough to catch flies with chopsticks, and to enjoy games that challenge said reflexes.
Or are you going with the 'People who have quick reflexes aren't SMART enough to play D&D' angle? That's not any less offensive.
They can make a game for 80% of the market for 50 million, or make a game for 20% for the same money.
It's not a choice at all, really.
Still others try to make a game for that same 20% for 10 million. And many of that 20% then go on to gripe about how substandard it is, doing everything in their power to sabotage it.
Pshaw! Back in my day we didn't even know what quick reflexes were. Everything was turn based. Oh the time before real-time was a great one.
Tick tick tick... Boom!.....
Yeah, I know that feelin'.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
well I should have made myself more clear in just saying they two different play styles.
You might like and be good at both chess and basketball but its not a stretch to suggest in general those two player are going to be stereotypically different.
same is true for D&D and the Donky Kongers
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Myyyyy reeeeflexxesss arrrrrrre jusssst aaaasss fffffaaaaasssstttt aaasss evvvvvvvaaarrr. Rahhhhhhhhhhhrrrrrr!!!!
Once upon a time....
Every single D&D player I've ever played with also played video games that required quick reflexes.
In fact, out of the people I've DMed for, two of them are major FPS maniacs who cheerily noscope snipe people all day long, one of them consistently places in the top 20 leaderboards for Super Meat Boy and wins about 1 out of 3 matches with pro fighting game players, and... well, heck all the rest are pretty good at video games too. Actually, out of all of them, I probably have the worst reflexes (Excuse me for a moment while I wear the hat of shame.)
The people I've RPed with online tend to play a variety of FPSs, fighting games, RTSs and the like.
... and when I think about it, my coworkers who play chess often used to discuss when they would next meet up to play some more basketball. (I'll cheerily admit, this is probably pretty uncommon, still I found your example funny)
I've always thought of D&D players having a pretty high overlap with video game players. If you drew a Venn diagram, while the video game sphere would be a lot bigger, I always thought the D&D sphere would be sunk at least halfway into the video games, if not more. Maybe they just do it differently where I come from.
No its not. If there is a market leader that 80% of the market prefer it would be a terrible gamble to try to compete with them.
When they can target 20% of the market that is waiting for a new game instead.
A company must look at the competition before they try to enter a market.
my response addresses a few posts here.
1. more often then not people assume the market place represents the demand of the consumer which is not 100%. Its demand AS WELL AS SUPPLY. Case in point. High speed rail? shot down by airline industry in my state. To think that companies can not and do not have a tight control over the supply (thus what you are exposed to) is being niave.
2. I am not arguing on the bases that D&D/Turn based games are radically different in play style from reflex games in focus and what is considered important. Its a silly arguement, they are radically as different as chess is to bastketball.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I just learned my Dad played D&D and he is really into those quick reflex games like Pacman and FPS's. I remember all the hardcore gamers in high school, they played any game, it didn't matter the reflexes, yet they like D&D and Magic: the gathering a lot. I remember this guy I liked loved Magic, and FPS games. I like all types if video games, and I play chess and used to play basketball, which I thought was sort of funny.
I really think there are more people in the game world that fall in the gray or black and white category, than only one extreme end, but maybe I live very close to where you live...lol.
I think people don't want to make games like the old games because they aren't sure if there is a large enough market, I actually think the sandbox market is larger the the old EQ like game market (they aren't the same). However, maybe SOE is trying to measure that market with the EQ time stopped server.
-I want a Platformer MMO
That's not the way it goes. Really.
Seriously, when have you EVER seen a company make, say, a car, have it become hugely successful, then have all other companies go: "It would be a horrible idea for us to make a car like that."
See minivans. SUV's. Compact SUV's... etc.
Not to say you can't make a niche profitable, I'm just saying spending the same money to grab a niche audience as you would a mass audience is a foolish risk that most dev companies won't make. And given how players pummel the ones that make them on a shoestring budget, I don't see why they'd bother to try that, either.
Ok I will try to break this down a bit.
1. I agree the sterotypes between the reflex gamers and the pnp gamers are really the same so I concede to that point.
2. However, the play styles and matter of focuses are radically different. In pnp you are breaking a single combat into manageable numbers and make choices based on numbers such as 'well if I throw this gereade it does more damage but less success chance, but if I use the other things its such and such, let me think on that and roll my choice'. In 'real time' that all happens in a matter of seconds. Not saying that one is more fun then the other but I am saying WHERE the fun is, is completely and totally different. I think most old school MMO players know this.
edit: but I do NOt think its about stupid young people with low attention span. Its just they do not understand the game we are talking about because they havent really been exposed much to it. imo
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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Spot on, spot on!
I wish these threads would stop. There has been too many lately.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I never found any of the older MMOs to really have a slow motion, extremely thoughtful game. I mean, could you imagine in an MMO if you told a monster 'Hang on a second, I'm really undecided between ability 2 and 3 right now. I mean, there are advantages to using 3, but if I use 2 now, I might be able to...'?
How many MMOs actually have PnP type pacing? I mean, so far as I'm aware, the vast majority of MMOs are basically real time. I don't know about EQ or UO, but I can speak for AC, AO and DaoC, and none of them seemed to particularly stretch your brain, either.
I knew this was coming and already have a response.
There is a huge difference between an MMO with a leveling system that takes some time to grow your character not being like a turned based game and an MMO that literally takes 1 week to max your toon out on.
The conflict here is that there are player who want to completely and forever kill all hints of non-twitch style donky kong gaming. I am not 100% sure why that is either but its very much a reality, I am just not convinced its age based
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Sad thing is, MMOs depend on people. So we can't go back where we came from. The game's code has been changed, the people have stagnated or vanished. And the only companies making games for the core MMORPG players are underfunded indie companies. (they're also the only ones turning a profit)
I actually think leveling should be like Magic the Gathering sans the part where you dump a ton of money into it to get a halfway decent deck.
I don't want to lose to somebody because they spent thousands of more hours into a game than I did, other than in the sense they've practiced more.
I have no problem with the idea of a 1-week max level, if you're given a wide array of flexible tools, and you can use those tools to customize your character as you see fit.
Maybe it's because I like PvP a lot, but I want to be able to win through sheer skill and cleverness, not lose because somebody spent hundreds of hours leveling their character to a point that I, with my limited pool of time, could not.
Maybe I'm strange.
Oh, and Magic the Gathering is pretty devoid of twitch, and is pretty high on tactics and strategy.
I smell troll meat.
You like games where the more to pay the more you win without effort?
yeah ok, sorry i see troll here.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Sorry, I probably confused you by using the word 'sans'
Here, let me cut and paste out of a dictionary for you.
–preposition
without
Origin:
1275–1325; ME < OF sans, earlier sens, seinz a conflation of L sine without, and absenti? in the absence of, abl. of absentia absence
You're welcome.
I want access to a wide variety of customization WITHOUT paying for it. Does that make more sense now?
Did you miss the part where she said "Without the tons of money", or she wants to win based on skill and cleverness.
Doesn't sound like paying more or lack of effort.
Venge
yes still a bit confused however I think the entire disconnect is here
'I don't want to lose to somebody because they spent thousands of more hours into a game than I did, other than in the sense they've practiced more'
again the basic misunderstanding from some players is the failure to understand that the character build IS the game in an RPG, NOT the twitch skills.
Two entirely different games. Both valid yes, but radically different and do not co-exist well togehter to be completely frank
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Look. If somebody beats me in a game of chess, they beat me because they're better at chess.
Playing 1000 hours of chess more than me only gives them more practice. It does not allow them to put more pieces on the board, it doesn't give their pawns extra hitpoints.
I do not think 'intellectual, non-twitch based game' is mutually incompatible with 'Without a heavily time-based reward/improvement system'.
Look at Magic the Gathering. People may have radically different decks... in fact, deck build and how you utilize it (With some luck on the side) is how you win at that game. (Well, with the aforementioned part I do not want, how much money you spend getting cards) Nowhere is twitch reflexes involved. Nowhere is 'Well, you've played 800 more games of Magic the Gathering than the other guy, so you get to draw 4 more cards a turn than he does' a factor.
It's down to skill vs. skill (Sans twitch)
That's what I like in my games. Yes, I understand that some people like the whole 'It's my character who is totally awesome because I dumped so much time into him' aspect of MMORPGs, but all I'm saying is that people can like '1 week to max level' and STILL prefer intelligent, clever gameplay.
See?