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Definition of a Clone?
I've been reading about Rift for several months now and I'm looking forward to it being released. As I search for information about the game and other people's opinions, I keep coming across people calling this a 'WoW Clone'. What is that exactly?
Let's say I own a Ford Mustang. It's a really great car. It looks nice, it has alot of speed, and I enjoy it. After owning if for five years, I start looking to find another car. I decide on a Dodge Charger, but my buddy says it's just a Mustang clone. Why?
Well, it has wheels like a Mustang. It has an engine, like a Mustang. It has doors, a roof, windshields, lights, and seats...almost just like a Mustang! It MUST be a Mustang clone! Nope, it's a car. All cars have that. You show me a car that has no wheels, doors, or an engine, and I'll tell you it's not a car.
I play Wow and i enjoy WoW. A little less since Cata, but I still actively play the game. I am also looking forward to Rift. Will I fall in love with it, and forsake WoW forever? Probably not. Could be that I enjoy the game and enjoy a few months of something new. Is there any need to bash Rift for being similar to everything else out there? Apparently.
WoW at one point was a Everquest Clone or a Ultima Clone, Blizzard didn't dream up a MMO and make something new. They kept what worked, and made changes (ie the quest system and graphics) along with several other great ideas. Good job for to Trion for seeing what worked for WoW and attempting to make their own changes to a great game. That's progress! Maybe we'll look back one day and see another 'WoW Clone' and see it's 20 million subscribers. Then we'll call the next game a clone of that.
Rift may be good, or it may suck. Time will tell, but I'm happy to have something 'new-ish' come along.
Comments
Let's avoid the word clone then.
RIFT is another MMOlite game that has nothing special going on for it. By seeing people lie or exaggerate the features it does have I fear that the industry will see that the general consumer for the MMORPG product is a comletely daft simpleton.
I'd like to see that change. Just my personal feeling on the matter. I was excited to get in to BETA, gave a few bug reports and did what I felt I needed to do for being gave the privliage. I decided after 3 beta tests and several bug reports on this awesomely polished* (not really) game that I would offer feedback for improvement. If it's heeded, who cares?
I uninstalled and decided that I should give my 50 bucks or so a better value elsewhere.
It's good for the genre for these unimaginative games to fail. Like it's good that buggy or poorly coded games fail.
Logic should dictate that the follow up titles should learn from this.
For 7 years watching no one learn from this; I'm starting to worry for my fellow man. It's kind of sad. You know, even a rat learns not to bite into the shock your face cheese chunck after two tries.
We're on try what? 24? As a member of the human race it's my duty to question the sanity of all of this.
It never was a clone of UO or EQ. I agree that it took some MMO elements, but the games are vastly different.
Rift took like.....uh.....everything from other MMO. WoW UI and Rift UI are almost indistinguishable and combat and abilities are often the exact same down to the name. Even the icons of some abilities are the same. The quests, all the same as WoW vanilla.
"Fetch me 10 hides and kill 10 wolves." I know I have seen this in another game, just can't put my finger on it......
I've played WoW, DAoC, EQ, EQ2, Aion, and about every other game out there. I've always had quests to kill so many bunnies and collect so many hides. DAoC had that, before WoW came along. WoW is NOT a DAoC Clone, because they had the same type of quests. DAoC had classes (generically) like WoW, and different races (generally) like WoW.
At some point, MMORPGs may be totally different that each other. Most people would agree that WoW and Eve Online are not very similar even though they are both MMORPGs. But right now, (almost) all fantasy MMORPGs are going to be similar to each other. If I like apple pie, and someone comes along with a chocolate pie..great! but it's still a pie.
Two can play this game.
The clone type is often seen, especcialy on asian markets. It has it's own "hardware" but the specs, the design is so much similar that it can be called a clone -technically, the blueprint is cloned.
Here is a licensed Hummer H1 Clone http://www.chinacarforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=656
That's what a clone is. And although Hummer and some other military type terrain vehicle do share the basic idea of providing a solid military vehicle and are indeed simillar to each other in many respects the design, the specs, the "hardware" differs enough to say it is not a clone but that it belongs in the same type of vehicles.Is Smart truck the same as Hummer. No, although both belong to Military vehicle type. I think this analogy is better than I thought at first. Because Smart truck takes most of the Hummer ideas, upgrades them to a whole new level and adds a few touches of itself. That is the difference between a clone and a new product.
All said, I think Rift is at least partially a clone. It is much closer to a clone (like chineese hummer is to H1) than an upgraded version of the genre (like smart truck is to H1). So please, stop with the car analogy because it is simply not fitting. What is it that Rift didn't steal or upgraded significantly besides the rifts?
Iirc WoW was called an EQ clone or a shameless copy by a number of people before its launch, only there were far less MMO gamers around back then, and the general population wasn't as bored or tired yet of certain MMO game mechanics as they seem to be now.
As for the eagerness of some people (not just mentioned only in this thread) to see a new MMORPG fail just because it isn't to their liking or their wished-for type of MMORPG's, I find that going a bit too far. What, just because someone doesn't like a certain MMORPG other people can't or shouldn't have fun playing that MMORPG? Isn't that a bit selfish and egotistical?
You don't see gamers complaining that a new shooter or RTS has so much similarities to what's already out there and therefor it should fail even if they've a lot more similarities than MMO's to be called a clone, but that's exactly what some MMO gamers are doing regarding games in the MMO genre.
I agree that the level of innovation is less the last 6 years than it was in the period 1999-2005 when many dev companies were still experimenting with gameplay mechanics. To say that all MMORPG's since then failed is untrue, especially since that definition is subjective and has changed post-WoW, before that MMO's were good to go with 100K+ subs. Even in player numbers MMO's like LotrO and Aion are still doing a lot better than most MMO's from before 2005.
Besides that, we'll see enough MMO's appear on the scene in 2011-2012 that'll offer different gameplay in several of their features, for those that have grown tired of the themepark setup of features. I guess these'll prove if it's really different MMO mechanics those MMO gamers needed to have fun, or if they've grown perpetually unhappy with the MMO genre, chasing the impossible dream of recapturing that very first love for MMORPG's when they first started to play them.
Hmmm, I don't really care about whether Rift is being called a clone or not, however the whole eagerness of people to call almost all new MMORPG's a clone, I find interesting.
I think it's subjective: determined by how small or wide you make the requirements for calling an MMORPG a clone (while it'd be better and more accurate to just classify them a 'themepark MMO'), you could call LotrO, AoC and Aion a clone, and WoW could be called an EQ clone.
Personally, I don't find them clones even if they share a lot of the same features with other MMO's like WoW.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
A smart and logical answer! Very nice!
In your Hummer anology, it's defined as something that has different hardware, but is so similar that it can be called a 'clone'. Is that what Rift is to WoW? I think not. I have not played the Beta yet, but have watched gameplay video. Rift has seemed to gather WoW's good points, true.
The action bars are simple and resemble WoW's action bars, but are those action bars unique to WoW alone? EQ had similar action bars, as does many games before and after WoW. 'Sparklies' for gatherable items for quests and drops are similar, but again nothing so unique to WoW that they had to come from WoW. The minimap is again very similar to WoW, but I've seen them in every MMO in the past five years.
Back to the car anology, if I take a Mustang and slap a new set of tires on and add a spoiler, then call it a Charger, then yes...I just cloned the Mustang. If I take the cool features of a Mustang, change the body and frame a bit, put a different engine inside, and design a new interior, then I have made a sports car not a Mustang.
I am sure, with all the similarities, there are some aspects of Rifts that will be different from WoW. The multi-class system seems different. The Rift system seems different than WoW. PvP seems to be more of a focus in Rift than WoW. The versatility of classes seem to be interesting (ie melee priest builds, caster dps with some healing ability).
I do not personally think Rift will be better than WoW at the beginning. WoW's questing system has come along way, and they have nailed some quests. Pop culture references and big cinematics are great in questing, and I have not seen this in any other game! Does Rift have this, probably not (yet).
Let the game grow and get it's own identity, let it become something more that a game that is similar to WoW. Give it a year, and it MAY be something completely new and different. To call it a 'WoW Clone' before it's released and has time to find it's own identity is premature I think.
I played WoW beta, and it felt like a 'clone', that didn't improve on things that I like...It went in the direction of more instancing, and made things easier/more accessable/casual, however you wish to define it.
I can't for the life of me remember what two games it reminded me of way back when, it was DAoC without a real RvR/PvP purpose and another game....I also didn't like the class I was playing, so never looked back.
I was hoping the direction was a fad, but it's not, as I found out after leaving Vanguard 1.5 years ago, and waiting on the next game that I had hope in....then the next....then the next... Been a long wait, anything along the lines of my prefered play are junk imo. I have tried them and they are either horrible or like in alpha stage.
I will give GW2/Arch Age a look, and swtor, but I don't hae a lot of hope on it being more to my liking, I am not a big fan of questing as it is, let alone tons of voice over, it makes me feel like I am playing an old console game. I don't like huge weapons, big bang/bam flashing numbers that look arcadish either (Tera).
So yeah, everything can be called a clone, heck the Warcraft world is a clone of the Warhammer table top game (heard they actually commisioned Blizzard for a game on Warhammer and pulled the plug, and they finished it and released it is probably why, never check if that is fact/fiction though, so if its true, can't blame em).
People want cars to do what they have always done before but better.
People want MMO's to be totally original in lore, gameplay and graphics. A slightly taller order to live up to.
This logic baffles me. So 'unimaginative games' is what exactly?
If we stretch the car analogy, all car makers should 'fail' cause they are all 'clones' of one another? What?
Toyota was number 1 for a while, using your logic, Ford should have made something else.
I don't think wish for any games to fail, more successful games is what'll drive more development into this genre NOT failures.
See the FPS genre as proof.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I own a F150 extended cab...
I use it to get to work, take my daughter to (seemingly) every event known to man, go to the market or stores, help my friends move (countless times it seems). My truck is a necessity.
I own an MMO for entertainment. To relax after doing all the above. To enjoy a lil time with my online friends, while my wife reads her Nook, or watches some really poor television show.
If you keep pumping out the same "clone" of the last MMO I played, I start to get terribly bored, and my entertainment recieved from your product dwindles. I then decide i don't need to purchase your product.
Do i really need another vehicle with doors a roof an engine etc? Eventually, and hopefully no time soon, but yes i will.
Do i really need another MMO with 5 mans, Battlegrounds (or whatever original name they give them), endless rep grinds, linear gameplay, etc.
Not so much......
For me even if I want to go back to WoW I cannot compete anymore with the gold you need. I left may be around TBC you see so I cannot really imagine catching up. Rift is like a new lease on a like a game that I can enjoy from the beginning. WoW I cannot do that anymore and I loved the BGs in WoW so for me Rift is perfect I guess.
People who don't have a clue use "Wow Clone" as an inciteing throw away comment.
Rift has some good features and playability but in reality , but no a fully mapped out persistant world you can play in for years. Real MMOs are just not being produced anymore, just weak variants.
All the current so called MMOs are so paint by numbers heavy their is no requirement to play them anymore.
Games with playability: UO , AC , EQ, EQ2......... SWTOR i hope but it may still end up easy mode lets hope not.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I think I made it perfectly clear that using car analogy is not valid. Car is a "genre" in vehicle tree, same as MMO is a genre in games tree. And EVERYTHING in genre is a clone of each other. Different thing is using a specific car analogy, as I have shown in my earlier post. Hummer H1 has a clone and that is chineese version of that vehicle. And if you think clones on this level the same (which is the only level appropriate) could be said for Rift - that it is somewhat a clone of WoW. It feels, it plays, it responses the same as WoW and everything that differentiates it from WoW is the name and few minor tweaks.
Someone made a crucial logical falacy when the car analogy was first introduced. It was simply not used on the correct level. To show how this argument logically fails we can venture forward and produce even more shocking idea, namely that FIFA is clone of Doom. Crazy? Sure, but that is what you guys did with car analogy - FIfa is a computer game and therefore there are many simillarities to Doom. Likewise a plane is a clone of a car. But that is absurd and it is an obvious logical falacy. On a certain level it is true, but this is not level that is used in a statement "Rift is a clone of WoW".
(hopefuly I didn't make this more complicated when I wanted to explain it
It certainly seems to me htat I did)
Anyway, to answer the OP's answer to my post. Thanks
. Many said that it is nothing new for a MMO game to be called a clone of another one. And as an argument most use the fallacy that I have shown wrong with an example with a car. Sure, every MMO is simillar to another but only if certain requirements are fulfilled it can be said that it is a clone and not merely a game that belongs to the same genre.
To me a valid question is not what is a clone, since a clone can be defined quite easily but what makes a certain game a clone and the other doesn't. I would say that this line cannot be drawn and it is more a question of feeling. When you logged in, did you feel a certain WoWish feel? I certainly did. Granted, every single themepark MMO that cam eout post WoW was labeled a clone. Well for me not a single one felt that much like a clone than Rift does. From the very first moment since I logged in it felt like a clone. I don't think I can really go analyze both games and explain similarities. It would not be a vlid objection, since all of the games share the same general setting (much like all of the military vehicles) but there is something tht makes one a clone and the other it doesn't. I would make a same mess that has already been made - if I try to go piece by piece and compare UI, quests, combat, trees, dungeons I would not be able to make a match that is true only for Rift, but also for AoC, Aion, LOTRO and so on. But these games are clearly not clones of WoW but simply belong to the same genre. It is not a question that can be solved by simply comparing the two games.
Before I defined a clone with similarties. And although in theory this definition is sufficient I cannot use it in practice. It is, like I said, a question of feeling. All games are simillar, that is obvious, but when is the game similar enough to call it a clone? Another definition I can think of would be that a clone does not have it's own "soul" (here I am even using a metaphysical definition- it will again not be usable in practice) but is trying to caputer the soul of the game it is cloning. Again, to me Rift does that. It feels like WoW.
(damn, I am crazy writting this
)
Good response King and I agree totally. I just watched a new movie called "The Rite". Boring. Nothing that hasn't been done before. The point is, variety is the spice of life and every game that is coming out now is just a re-hash of others, just like most movies coming out now. Has the human race lost it's imagination so much that we can't come out with something completely different. Is this the fate of MMO's to just kill 10 of these, gather 5 of those???
I played RIFT for a few hours and became completely bored. Not enough variation in things to keep me interested. It's sad but I fear as each game fails, we are saying goodbye to a genre that could have been awesome.
Either game companies learn from their failures, or the genre will die and everyone will go play Facebook games.