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Selfish behavior and a complete lack of kindness from other players is running rampant...
HappyFunBall
Member UncommonPosts: 221
I just posted this as a comment to a recent article about kindness, but hardly anyone is going to see that, so I'm going to post it here. It's a must read, in my opinion, not just for multi-player gamers, for anyone living in a society, which is almost everyone on the planet.
I'm 41, and I've seen so many terrible/crappy things like this in my time (response to article - http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/staffblog/022011/21480_Kindness.html), especially from people that pretend to be your friends, no-less, and no, they didn't run me off the road - I'm talking about being mistreated, especially without deserving it, etc.
To bring this to the realm of MMO's, social behavior, etc. I am currently playing LOTRO while waiting for RIft to be released. In 10+ years of playing MMO's, and I'm talking about a large number of these games, I have NEVER EVER seen so many selfish jackasses gathered together in one place, let alone stupidity, the complete lack of having any sort of "clue", etc.
Kindness plays a big part, but the selfish behavior of the player-base (and I really don't care if "your" experience/your server/your MMO is different, as this doesn't change anything that actually happened to me and I have a knack for noticing this stuff, much more so than other people so, flame someone else. I don't read flames anyway.
I'm a healer, an RK (dps/healer), which, in LOTRO, are very rare. Minstrels are the other type of healer, and hardly anyone plays them either. So, I am constantly asked to heal groups, all the time, and not one of those times has anyone ever asked me if "I" need the quest they are on, need some items, want anything back for healing them, zero - nada - ziltch - nothing.
When I'm soloing, which is mostly what you do in this game, I see players from time to time, and heal them, for no reason, just because I actually "care" about people and I practice what I preach. Yeah, WTF is wrong with me, right? (that's sarcasm). I think I got one "thank you", out of countless times I've kept people from dying. If anyone ever buffs me or helps me kill a mob, I *always* thank them, and I don't think I even got a response to that either.
I was in a group yesterday, and the following has occured the majority of the time in groups, but anyway, I wasted a lot of my time getting these people up to where I was, quest-wise, made sure they got all their quest requirements satisfied, kept them all alive, and even offered to be the healer (there was another one for once), and I don't even enjoy healing (I play the RK because of the dps, not to chain heal until my fingers are numb). I waited for them to catch up to me (waiting while they finished an instance and quests so they would qualify for the same quests I was on, etc), shared my quests with them... and when it was time for them to help me (and themselves), they literally just stopped talking to me (still in group btw), and as soon as they killed what THEY needed for THEIR quests (I have the SAME quests, and they KNOW this, because I just friggen shared them 5 mins prior!!!).. they RAN off to immediately turn in THEIR quests. OMFG.
I cannot even explain how mind-blowing this was (well, is, as it's not even close to an insolated incident). Again, I've never seen this behavior, so rampant, so over-the-top selfish, thoughtless, etc, the VAST MAJORITY of the time, all in one game. I've seen this before, of course, but it was always the exception, not the rule. In LOTRO, for some reason I cannot understand, kinda... - I blame the F2P morons, because they are a selfish lot of players in general - sorry, it's TRUE (most of them think they DESERVE 100% free games to play, which is mind-numbing to me), it's the case MOST of the time instead of being a rare event.
As soon as they stopped talking to me (they still talked to eachother, which I could still see, morons!, they just pretended I wasn't there, especially after all I did for them!), they just ran away while I was STILL fighting the quests mobs we all needed, and they already killed them because they got to the quest location before I did. No, they didn't wait for me like I did for them. They literally just ran away while I was in battle. This happens in most groups I have been in, in this game.
I was gonna berate them, but decided if I HAD to do this, what would be the point, as the damage was done, so I simply quit the FS/group. About 5 mins later, they re-invited me without saying a word in a /tell, etc. So I said pressed the 'decline' button. They didn't send me one /tell to find out where I "went" or even cared why. They just went on their merry way.
So, NOW, I want to ignore everyone in the game now, look out only for myself, etc, just to get back at these kinds of people, but then I would be just like them. No thanks. In the same vein, if you are kind when other people are not, you get hurt, let down, dissappointed, non-stop, and this in painful, as well. So, where the hell is the silver lining in all of this? Guess what? There isn't one.
I don't beleive there is any winning this battle. Kindness and compassion are positive traits, yet in today's society, you are HURT if you have and practice these traits. If you care, especially a lot, get ready to be hurt and let down. Yeah, that makes sense. NOT.
We live in a SOCIETY people! Look it up.
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I must add that during the Rift betas, yeah, betas, I had the complete opposite experience - most intelligent and decent user base I've seen in a while, in general.
Comments
If people can solo, change names, change servers and there are no consequences for their actions they have no incentive to be nice or pretend to be nice. They can buy characters and make new ones to max level in a few weeks, why would they care if they are nice.
EQ generation and post-WoW generation players are completely different.
If you think MMO are bad, try playing on Xbox Live or PS3 online.
I suggest you read this book. It might change your attitude a little.
Altruism is still a part of "mmorpging" but the increased population of players that are weened on solo friendly WoW and have only known WoWs crappy community is definately gonna have its collateral effects across the genre. It also seems the communication tools these games offer are somewhat less effective than in times past. Consider yourself fortunate though that you at least had people conversing with you in the first place in LOTRO. in 12 lvls I conversed with 1 person and that was just cuz he wanted me to help him with his quest. Free or not, doesn't seem worth it. The sad part is there are ways to fix the problem, but all these companies want to be like Wow and think solo friendly play will do that for them.
Rothschild concubine Ayn Rand? Not a good move. Btw, these are the same guys who own Vivendi, which owns WoW.
Care about people.
Yea that sucks mate. and I Lol at you for hoping for better treatment from Rift. I have no interest in Rift, seeing random threads and feedback from room mate who has taken a big likeing to it. Its the WoW community. If you like Rift, just play WoW.
I never played LoTR or the other one you had mentioned. I always play healer or the CC class. Having played EQ, EQ2 WoW, Asheron's Call, City of Heroes and Currently DC Online. I run into people who are more on the rude side of thngs, but I never ran into anything as lame as what you mentioned. That just plain sucks...Also, Im 24 been playing since I was 13
I hate to say it but "join a good kin".
I rarely have these issues.
Once in Aion there was this player, a lot of good gear, but he put together a group so that he could finish some quests. Other people needed these quests as well so we went. After he finished getting what he needed (all the while trying to steer us to "his" objectives even though we needed our own to be completed) I suggested we go back and finish for the rest of the group.
He stayed maybe 2 minutes then suddenly he announced that "his mom needed him to do something" and he left.
I sort of got that he was a "kid" because of how he was acting during the group.
In any case, I prefer to party with good people, even if we fail 50 times. Because of this I rarely do pick up groups.
saves me a lot of sanity and what is left of my hair .
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Completely agree with you bastion. MMO's should move back to the format where leveling was actually part of the experience not just a means to get to the end game that you can rush through in a couple weeks. They should also make them less solo friendly and make classes interdependent/forced grouping. This is just my opinion, but when you add these aspects to a game it creates a much better community.
When you make leveling a large portion of the game, as in everquest, and it takes you a year to hit max level, players will not be so quick or rash to ruin their reputation. They won't ninja loot or be rude because then they get blacklisted by the community. Then they cannot find groups easily and it will be extremely difficult to level. Making your only option to do nice thigns and restore your reputation or make a new character. Just my 2 cents.
p.s. name changing and server transfers are awful and should never have been implemented. Their creation destroyed what community there was in WoW and were just a means to make more money by the company.
I do have to agree that there are a lot of people out there that do seem to be only concerned with their needs, and are less willing to take a minute and help out othes. but there are also a lot of good people out there that do spend the extra time to make sure that you are gettign what you need. I agree that most of the latter group are in good kinships in Lotro, and will take time tio help out their members in groups and dungeons, as well as pugs they are in.
An example is the recent book runs our kin did. We had 2 minstrels in the goup (don't know where you got it that no one plays minstrels - we hav ejust been nerfed to death since the start -- but I digress) and we needed to add another player. one of the Minstrels opted out of the run so we could add another player/. then when we were done, we turned around and ran it again with the Minstrel that dropped out so they could complete the book.
A good kinship / guild will always spend the tiem to help each other out, as thats what they are for. so if you are not getting that sort of help, then maybe you need to find a new kinship.
See, that's the problem. Altruism doesn't work for exactly what he described. He did something nice for someone else, and then he expected them to do something nice in return. Yes, it's nice to think that people will always do nice things without the need for anything in return, i.e. altruism, but that doesn't work because he expected somebody else to do things for him after he did that nice thing for them. I guess you could say he was altruistic while the others were selfish, but to expect something in return is not altruistic at all, in fact it is very selfish, and you become the very thing you started to hate. Life only works when people are naturally selfish, for example I was helping a noob in World of Warcraft with some information about professions and which ones to take, which could be constituted as altruism, but at the same time I was being selfish because I wanted to talk to someone and he was in the trade chat looking to talk to someone so I passively found him. After professions we talked about a little more in-game stuff, such as how I wanted to be a blood elf because I could "RP and be a jerk at the same time!" which we both laughed at. Of course there is selfishness to the extreme, but I believe what the OP is talking about is passive selfishness, not active. I think if you would've asked them for help, they probably would have helped you, at least after you helped them, if not they were being actively selfish which might be "bad", but you shouldn't ever get your hopes up when you are talking to strangers. Playing World of Warcraft most of the players I played with helped me a lot and I helped them a lot too and it felt good, but we kept an active dialogue and didn't expect anything from each other, other than what was originally talked about. The OP blows the issue way out of proportion simply because he didn't have the nerve to ask people for help.
This shouldn't be a suprise when people behave like this. The problem is that a long while back most MMO players were adults, with some degree of intelligence. They played because they wanted to be part of a community, it was the larger part of the game for them.
Unfortunately they started producing games that enticed kids to play, and also the remaining adult population who would normally just stick to FPS games. I can wholeheartedly, as a teacher, vouch for the lack of manners and general social skills that kids have these days. Its the generation of parents who couldn't give a monkeys about how they behave and don't know how to bring them up correctly. You find this mostly in WoW. Shocking behaviour by people who you would guess are no more than 8 or 9 years old.
I would 100% prefer to play a game that was 18 years and older only, if it was possible to enforce. You can tag onto that other things such as a strict naming policy so that I don't have to play along some juvenile called "SuperKill3r69".
Consoles for the kiddies and IQ zero's, mmo's for the adults please.
The majority of people in this world are decent people, who given half a chance, would be somewhat kind and helpful. Unfortunately, the loudest person is typically the one who is heard most. And by that, I mean the people that stand out are the ones who put themselves out there as jerks, scammers and cheaters.
And as MMOs become more mainstream every day, more and more people, from all walks of life, wind up playing games that used to be a niche market. The more mainstream MMOs become, the more dilluted the player base gets. The more jerks and jackasses find their way into these games.
MMOs used to be played by dedicated players who actually cared about their virtual selves; people who put effort into building their reputation and earning their fellow players' respect. Those days are gone, though, I'm afraid. With the uncanny level of accessibility present in the major titles out there (i.e. WoW) you now see the same kids who used to go out and vadalize things and bully the younger kids, logging into the MMOs and causing as much havoc as they can, due to the lack of long-term consequences. But this type of behavior, born primarily of accessibility (i.e. casual game play) and anonymity, is not found solely with the younger generations; there are plenty of adults playing these games, who are equally as worthless as the younger jerks out there.
What we're seeing is society bleeding into what used to be semi-protected (by the stigma attached to them) virtual worlds. Instead of Azeroth being an escape, where like-minded enthusiasts could get away from their every-day BS, it could more accurately be described as a social gathering spot, much like your local shopping mall.
Society as a whole is reflected in MMOs these days. As they become more mainstream, they become more saturated with the ******** of the world, just like real life.
This is something I've watched happen over the last 14 or 15 years that I've played MMOs, since the days of Ultima and Meridian. I've seen this happening, and I'm only 24 years old.
True mages don't die. They strategically miscalculate.
Great post, agree 100%. The change in MMOs is mostly demographics. People haven't changed, the games haven't changed all that much either, it's who plays the games that has changed - the relative proportion of geeks who love the lore and want to be in a virtual world, vs. kids who are dipping into the game for lulz and have little emotional investment, has fallen. Mainly because the geeks have gotten older, and there is no geek culture of the same type replacing them.
(Geek culture thrived on the type of information ghettoisation that the internet has destroyed. Bob Dylan had to move to another city to find info about the singer he idolized, whose records were obscure and hard to find, etc.; nowadays the equivalent geek could download the whole back catalogue of his idol for free. There is no more obscurity, nothing that's difficult to find, hence no more geek culture, strictly speaking - just a sort of icon of it, an MTV iconised version that's like a faction you can join.)
I will admit to rage quitting AoC for this very reason:
I had just gone back to experience the game about a year after release and was solo-questing in a level 20 - 30 area. Being a bit creative, I was able to solo some of the group quests by being selective and stalking specific mobs. I noticed another player come into the area and he was failing where I was succeeding.
After a few awkward moments (this is on the RP-PVP server) we both realized neither of us was intending on murdering the other and decided to team up. I helped him go through the quests I had just completed and during the duration we had a couple of really nice items drop. We arranged to swap loot when we had finished. Once he was done, he ran off and when I had asked about the loot swap, he said, "Oh, one of my guildies wants this for his alt."
Being this was a pvp server and me being peeved, I stalked him for a while then got my revenge. At that point I got even more peeved once I realized all I really got out of it was some measily coin and pvp exp.... WHOOP-DEE-DOO! If this had been UO, I would have been able to loot the item I wanted.
This is interesting - I'm almost 44 (I know, you'd think I'd have better things to do) and I've been playing MMOs for a number of years and I have to say I've noticed a general change in the attitudes of the people who you find yourself alongside. I do think that the social interaction is different in these games now. It used to be that people would have conversations, they would have been pleasant, they would have looked after people and generally begaved very well towards each other. That still happens, of course, but it's far less common than it used to be...and that's kinda sad.
It used to be customary in vanilla WoW for people to buff others as you ran past them on the road - that never seems to happen now. In fact, I've deliberately stood in crowded areas randomly buffing people all around me just to see and I don't think I've ever been thanked.
I don't know why this should be so - perhaps it's the plethora of free games we have now, contributing to a sort of disposable MMO culture -or perhaps there's just a new, younger generation on the go now with little time for the niceties that us old dinosaurs think is important.
Sure does detract a little from the enjoyment of MMOS though...
The problem with everybody's argument here is that you are sounding awfully selfish when you expect strangers to care about you.
Ive played alot of mmo's and it sounds strange that lotr have such community you describe becouse turbines asherons call2 had one of best communitys ever in a mmo.
But your not alone in this im same kind of player as you are i help or buff ir save people and dont need anything back and most dont even say thank you but sometimes i see players that are greatfull that give me hope and satisfaction at least some:)
AoC was terible Darkfall is decent community many nice and helpfull players.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
When I was playing LotRO I was playing with my Everquest mates so no problem there but I joined many groups when they were not about. Important step is to talk to them in group before you all start. If they are cold and not responding then you can gauge what type of group it is. Sometimes only a couple of them are like that you can after speak in tell to the good ones and continue grouping with them.Not everyone is bad although it might look like that....hell I pugged my way in vanilla WoW to level 60, so yes think about that for a moment.
Aion isn't solo friendly. Everyone here seems to be bashing that game. Most of the time on my old server Triniel I always wound up grouping with the same people. So it's not like you could group with anyone and just ninja loot and act how you felt. There was one guy nobody would group with because he was a known loot ninja.
Here is what game companies and devs think...
"Well we gave them Aion they said that was too much of a grind. Look at all the other failed MMO's the players didn't like ? Seems like wow is the perfect formula. Most played MMO of all time. Yea , lets make a game like wow"
Until the MMO community stops bashing any game with a new idea you are gonna keep on seeing games like wow immerging.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
I'm surprised you're having those kinds of difficulties in LotRO, OP.
As far as buffing people and/or healing them, sometimes the assist(or its origin) isn't quite so obvious, particularly in the heat of battle. LotRO's visual effects tend to be more subtle than most, and can often blend in with each other. By the time the fight is over, your combat window has long since passed the bit where it says "OP casts "GREATER SYA on you for 3000 points. Probably should thank them."
The other thing is, a number of things may enter their potentially cynical minds: Is he gonna want me to join his kin?(for example). It's an odd world, the internet, where usually when someone is being nice, they generally want something.
I would try not to take it too personally. And try to keep in mind that being nice shouldn't be about thanks, even though it's deserved.
Another somewhat related note: in the past, I've mailed fellow kinnies some pretty high level food as acts of kindness, only to find that they sent me money in return. This got me to thinking; if you're a kind player who receives expensive gifts from another player unsolicited, you pretty much feel a mandate to compensate that player. Now, what if they're saving up for an LI or something, and this guy comes along and drops 50 mushy peas on you? A nice gesture can sometimes backfire; my gesture and their response made me feel more like a passive/aggressive salesman than someone trying to be nice. Since then, I've held off from giving out freebies, at least of that caliber.
It has nothing to do with whether or not they "care" about us; it has everything to do with how they TREAT us.
I could give a **** less if you, walking down the street, didn't care one way or the other about me.
But if you walk past me, and snatch my cellphone out of my hand, you can expect an *** kicking.
Do you understand the difference?
True mages don't die. They strategically miscalculate.
Some people still do it, but you're right. It used to happen alot more frequently.
And in big crowds, it can be difficult to tell who buffed you. The chat window buzzes at about a mile a minute near, say, the bank or auction house. It's policy for me to thank people who do that, I have a hard time finding who did it at times.
You touch on a fine point here; it can some times be difficult to tell, in such a situation, who buffed you. But there is something else at issue here, as well.
Aside from the base issue we've discussed, I think we're also seeing a reaction from the non-jerk players. As the virtual worlds we visit become more and more cut-throat with jerks and clowns around every corner, the nice players tend to become more guarded in their demeanor. I myself find that I am less likely these days to help out someone in need, simply because I've been burned so many times in the past. I suppose you could say that the "good guys/gals" of the MMO worlds are becoming jaded.
I could wax philosophical here, and we could discuss the self-perpetuating cycle that I've just described; Are we becoming products of our environments, and encouraging further such issues by not rising above at every turn? Gah, we coul go on endlessly with this, I think...
True mages don't die. They strategically miscalculate.
I think problem is the lack of community. Even if you behave like total idiot, it's so rare to meet anyone who remembers that there isn't really any consequence for your behaviour. There's no server-wide community which would shut you out, unlike in many MMOs a few years back.
Jerks who behave like idiots even if they know they're going to be excluded from parties in the future are rare, but selfish people who don't care about others when they know there's no consequence to them are more common. When all those selfish people behave selfishly - as they aren't given any reason to behave otherwise - not caring anything about other person quickly becomes the norm for the community. Even those who would like to behave nicely get frustrated and stop caring.
I wish there were a way to rate other players you group with and to see ratings given by others to avoid idiots. But knowing how todays MMOs focus on gear, and what kind of attitude there generally is, that wouldn't really be a solution either. We aren't judged by our behaviour, we are judged in gear-checks.
I would LOVE to see a player-rating system, for the players, by the players. Unfortunately, we must accept that this will likely never happen, as the developers implementing such a feature would, in a sense, be encouraging the alienation of their own customers.
MMOs are developed by corporations as a source of revenue. As players, we some times tend to forget that fact.
True mages don't die. They strategically miscalculate.
I've been playing MMOs for a good 13+ years, and I can definitely attest to the fact that things are just getting worse with regards to player behavior.
Yes, there have always been selfish players, but the frequency at which I encounter them over a decent player has sky rocketed in recent years. Not only that, but the lengths at which some of said players are willing to screw another player over seem to have gotten worse as well.
I remember a time when you could ask a random player a question and you would get a polite response. Even if they didn't know the answer themselves they would say "sorry, I don't know." These days, asking a random player a simple question usually equates to "LoL GTFO the gaem u [censored] noob."
Not only that, but the amount of players who just outright use or abuse other players for no reason. Ninja looting seems to have gotten considerably worse across the board, as some players only think about themselves, some even doing so because the grief it causes others amuses them. I've seen players be verbally berated by complete strangers for making a little mistake or accidently doing or not doing something -- mostly in groups, where things aren't explained properly to begin with.
I don't know if it's the latest generation growing up on the Internet with a "me me me" mentality, or what, but things have been getting terrible, and I don't see things getting any better unless there is actual incentive for players to be more civil with each other... because that seems to be the only way to get some players to actually treat others like people.