Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Possibly The Best Sandbox Ever Created!

1235»

Comments

  • HarkkumHarkkum Member Posts: 180

    The game design of Xsyon reminds me from the early days of MUD coding: there are a plenty of systems that have no actual purpose. I recall coding some internal communication method for my random mobs but as it was manifestly the same as just processing an internal command linked with random chatter the surface level sophistication of the system was not met at the level of design. In short, what appeared like a massive feature was totally and entirely pointless.

    Fairly similar, entirely pointless features are abundant on Xsyon. Take for example the much touted quest creation system and interface. First, the interface is obtuse as you have to use the exact name of the item: What if I wanted to someone bring me new minerals so that I could analyse their properties? The present design adds fairly little to the game that could not be achieved by a finite state machine. Of course, writing your own kill seven rats quest is much more sandboxy than one provided by the game but it doesn't change it to any more intriguing. In sum, the cumbersome tool appears on the surface to provide you with choice whereas in reality you only have a set of pre-defined prototype-quests.

    A rather similar lack of purpose haunts also other features of the game. If terraforming and building are at the core of the gameplay why are they so strictly limited? Wouldn't it be a more efficient way to provide the game with simple physics engine and then allow different material different properties of durability etc. Then player A could draw the design and sell it to player B who would get a truely unique building. Now I can place a log on top of one another or create one of the pre-defined designs. It does not really differ all that much from being able to just use one of the designed house designs that you find from number of games. Again, a design that seemingly reeks of freedom but de facto is as limited a rule set as the one you can find from a number of free-to-play games.

    I guess that what I want to say is that players should maybe ask a bit more from their sandbox games. For example, a house creator akin to Sims shouldn't be all that impossible to implement if that really is what people want to do in their sandbox games. Just look how LEGO Universe has done this. The reason they choose to go for instance-based sandboxness has likely more to do with game design than technical limitations to allow one to freely build house anywhere they like. The bunch screaming for sandbox saviour seems to totally neglect the sillyness of these sandbox designs: they provide no additional value other than a right to creator of the game to say it is "player driven".

    Being player driven would require that you could actually affect on the elements in the game world: now the freedom seems to limit itself to the amount of identical blocks you decide to place next to or on top of one another (or analogically with quests how many grass you decide others should gather for that nifty reward). Also the illusionary "realism" that always seems to justify other decisions on sandboxes never applies to others. I can swim with a log tied to my back but I cannot jump over the mountain. Why is that? Neither of them has anything to do with actual human beings being able to do them. I guess that maybe the first sandbox masses will enjoy is the sandbox that actually has something with fun to do.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775

    Originally posted by Harkkum

     

    Take for example the much touted quest creation system and interface. First, the interface is obtuse ....

     I have been wanting to see an MMO create a player created quest system for around 10 years now. This system is the only one I am aware of. You might not like the interface but as far as I know this is the first player created quest system ever created and done so by a team of what? 5 developers?

    I am still undecided if I am going to stick with this game but things like the player questing engine is actually a great idea that has been around forever and fairly easy to create. thank god someone finally did it.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • Thomas2006Thomas2006 Member RarePosts: 1,152

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Harkkum

     

    Take for example the much touted quest creation system and interface. First, the interface is obtuse ....

     I have been wanting to see an MMO create a player created quest system for around 10 years now. This system is the only one I am aware of. You might not like the interface but as far as I know this is the first player created quest system ever created and done so by a team of what? 5 developers?

    I am still undecided if I am going to stick with this game but things like the player questing engine is actually a great idea that has been around forever and fairly easy to create. thank god someone finally did it.

     

    Not to mention least of all this is the BASIC first revision of the system. It's going to be improved as time goes on. Just be glad there is even a quest system in place at this stage.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775

    Originally posted by Thomas2006

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Harkkum

     

    Take for example the much touted quest creation system and interface. First, the interface is obtuse ....

     I have been wanting to see an MMO create a player created quest system for around 10 years now. This system is the only one I am aware of. You might not like the interface but as far as I know this is the first player created quest system ever created and done so by a team of what? 5 developers?

    I am still undecided if I am going to stick with this game but things like the player questing engine is actually a great idea that has been around forever and fairly easy to create. thank god someone finally did it.

     

    Not to mention least of all this is the BASIC first revision of the system. It's going to be improved as time goes on. Just be glad there is even a quest system in place at this stage.

     exactly!

    Yes its true we dont have autofill in the quest creator but I would rather not have an autofill for now then not have a player created quest engine at all.

    So many large development companies are so lazy

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • ManarixManarix Member UncommonPosts: 98

    Here is my review of the current state after playing the game for a few:

    Graphics: ok. Not Rift, not AoC, but good enough.

    World size: big enough to host the current player base. You don't come across many players besides where their tribes are situated.

    Movement: if you don't fancy WASD and/or have trouble with adjusting camera angles, you will find it a struggle. Having to press "c" to get into combat mode and then all of the sudden having to use the mouse felt outdated/unlogical and i had to do it a fair few times before getting sort of used to it.

    Crafting: Tough to get the right tools, tough to get materials for some of the crafts. But what you craft is most definetely needed by the community. The craft proces itself is rather bland: equip tool, make sure you have the ingredients, press "craft".

    Housing: terraforming (changing the landscape/altitude etc) combined with tents, walls, etc, promises that no tribe will look the same. Together with crafting in general, a huge part of the comming 6 months after launch so make sure you like to be involved in it......

    PvP: still under construction, altho the developper seems to go for the pvp-with-consequences approach.

    Bugs: quite a few, never game breaking in my opinion.

    Features: lots of things were not in yet, but the team is dedicated. Being small, one may wonder at what speed they can live up to promises.

    Server stability: we had a few roll backs with data loss, hopefully that will be past tense after the launch.

    Worth the initial 40 bucks? To me, it was. Worth paying the monthly subscription for? that remains to be seen, it will depend heavily on how fast promises will materialize.

     

     

    Currently playing browser games. Waiting for Albion Online, Citadel of Sorcery and Camelot Unchained.
    Played: almost all MMO pre 2007

  • HarkkumHarkkum Member Posts: 180

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Harkkum

     

    Take for example the much touted quest creation system and interface. First, the interface is obtuse ....

     I have been wanting to see an MMO create a player created quest system for around 10 years now. This system is the only one I am aware of. You might not like the interface but as far as I know this is the first player created quest system ever created and done so by a team of what? 5 developers?

    I am still undecided if I am going to stick with this game but things like the player questing engine is actually a great idea that has been around forever and fairly easy to create. thank god someone finally did it.

    I think that you stress virtually the same problem as I was trying to point out: the system in itself might be wanted but what it currently offers is not. This was what my analogy to my own coding efforts back in the day was refering to; I wanted to create something immensely innovative but as the design wasn't all that thought out the result was lacklustre on so many levels. The current system has sole focus on the ends not the means. A quest by player is the objective, not a system to allow players to create quests freely.

    Also, relying for subsequent revisions is the Holy Grail of sandbox design of late. You can always say that a system will be revised later on, but till then the system is open to critique. What the system currently provides is a way to create a quest to kill, craft or gather one random object of interest. The icing you put on the cake certainly can make it appear as something else, but at its foundation lies the very same gathering quest regardless of who has created it.

    The idea of freedom normally associated to sandbox games by definition can be somewhat questioned by these design choices. The tools provided by the game are lacking the sophistication that it takes to allow for true freedom. I think the present situation is moreso depicted by freedom from content rather than freedom to create content. The depth of content players are currently free to create is mesmerisingly shallow as, e.g., with regard to quests you are not entitled to link quests to events being triggered that fall outside the pre-defined ones.

    A freedom to choose from all the recognised triggers is well illustrated by WoW's UI design. The array of different mods that people are able to create with the provided freedom is staggering. If Xsyon's quest system would illustrate similar freedom, the innovative quest design as well as various meta-tasks would certainly emerge. With the current system, there's no chance for that to happen and this chance is eradicated by the design choices not its current status. A system where you have to drag-and-drop the pre-defined objective of a quest will allow just as many different objectives as the designers deem fit, whereas a true freedom would be a freedom to innovate within the game's toolset.

    This is where also one should place the challenge to designers. It is not as much a coding challenge as the code has been there for ages, ever since those MUD coding days. The designers would just have to think what they want through design and not the visual presentation on the screen. I am quite certain that the Xsyon's code already recognises a string of different modifiers and events such as player being hit, hence, it would not be impossible to link this to the quest tool and allow a player to create a quest where you have to take damage from sad panda bears. Now all you can do is kill said pandas.

    Therefore, though Xsyon would be the best sandbox ever created it hardly is stretching the boundaries of sandbox design. A way better sandbox model can be found from e.g. LittleBigPlanet and the tired cliché of it being somehow different with "single player games" really doesn't cut it. The design choices are not relative to the genre of the game but to the innovation of those designing.

  • EladiEladi Member UncommonPosts: 1,145

    We the current players are ( or should be if you read anyting)  aware that xsyon is a very RAW game.  it jsut has the most basic core feature's  and alot of it need refinement.  chat,spaws,quest,crafting.. every single ting in the game will need a good 2th look, an grapical update (not upgrade).

     

    But what will make me stay in is the knowlidge that the dev(s) are very very aware of it all. they do thier absolute best to create as much as possible in as short posible time.  The game systems are fundamently good but "again" needs refinement..  and this is a big chance of lets MO, were the game system is fundamently bad, no patchwork job helped that game.

    While I believe the Xsyon can only become better.

    Its not a caual game, its a game for people who wana play a game long term. it has lots of flaws but I sinserely believe those can be smooten out over time as the company and game grows ( or atleast stays steady :P) 

  • BadaboomBadaboom Member UncommonPosts: 2,380

    Ah...nice.  Spring just arrived in game.

  • InktomiInktomi Member UncommonPosts: 663

    Beazt,

    Awesome writeup on the game in the front. This is the type of educated opinion I like to see when someone writes about a game they like, instead of just trashing another one and saying that THIS GAME IS GREAT! o/

    Anywho, I am currently in a crossroads of gaming. I have been reading about this Xyson and while I was playing my last beta installment of Rift I found myself getting (gasp) bored. Yes folks, I actually got bored of Rift, dinged 40 and logged off. I was actually ready to log into a NWN2PW when I decided to check on mmorpg, saw this post and read the whole thing.

    My experience with sandboxes ranges from Fallen Earth, Darkfall and EVE (and Ryzom). All good games in a way, with EVE being the best IMO but thats just my personal love of bling-bling spaceships. Alas, the same fell upon all three, I got bored because it became a virtual life simulator instead of a game. The problem with both Fallen Earth and Darkfall was the population fell off so I ended up a lone ranger most of the time. In DFO I ended up getting ganked by random invisible people after not seeing a soul for hours. Not fun. I felt I was just crafting to give it away. In FE I ended up crafting to get my ATV to run into the next town to do some ho-hum missions and crafting my next gun/knife/vehicle rinse repeat.

    The lure of most sandboxes which can be attributed to other sandboxey type of simulators like Second Life and Entropia Universe is the creativity involved. Players enjoy crafting and creating things to show off and sometimes to personally admire. This is also the hinge of the overnight sensation called Minecraft. 

    I can see where this may help Xyson. The trick I think that new players like myself will have to focus on is forgetting what I might have learned from hanging out in themeparks too much. One needs to be social and be ready to work well with others. Coming in a game like Xyson with "yo, Imma solo this, watch meh" is not going to work.

    Due to the overwhelming response and your well though out and well written post, I am going to give Xyson some serious thought.

    All the best,

    ~Ink

  • NoobgrenNoobgren Member Posts: 102

    If a slightly OT detour is allowed, I'd just like to point out that I've noticed several people calling Fallen Earth a sandbox lately.

    This is misleading and only serves to lower the standards of people actually enjoying free and open games. Fallen Earth is not a sandbox, it is a solo-focused, quest-based PvE game in a static world built upon zoned level progression. It has an extensive crafting system, but that does not make it a sandbox.

    I wish the term sandbox wasn't used so lightly.

  • HexcaliberHexcaliber Member UncommonPosts: 171

    Originally posted by Noobgren

    If a slightly OT detour is allowed, I'd just like to point out that I've noticed several people calling Fallen Earth a sandbox lately.

    This is misleading and only serves to lower the standards of people actually enjoying free and open games. Fallen Earth is not a sandbox, it is a solo-focused, quest-based PvE game in a static world built upon zoned level progression. It has an extensive crafting system, but that does not make it a sandbox.

    I wish the term sandbox wasn't used so lightly.

    Sandbox refers to an open free form world, and class free mmo, where players decide their build and endgame content, not some pre determined cookie cutter class. While some may argue fallen earth is not truly open world it is free from instanced zones (even early swg and eve online have zone boundaries), and does offer a class less system. It is also immediately obvious you have issues with FE that colour your perception of the games user base and content; I am sure a great many mmo players like I who enjoy sandbox games and have been around since the genres earliest days would happily call FE sandbox.

    My Colour Is Vomit green, I puke on the tards with stupid colour sigs. My symbol is ,,!, O ,!,, My enemies are any prat with a colour sig, a meaningless personality test, or a pointless list of games and classes.


    Regards Hexcaliber

  • SetsunSetsun Member UncommonPosts: 286

    My god, this constant Hype boost for Xsyon can be annoying!

    Now all games are bad and Xsyon is the true and only sandbox game, lets face reality you bought the game and you constantly Hype it because you know if this game doesnt have a huge population base it will feel like an empty ghost world, in my opinion most of you are just afraid of it. I bet most people are even afraid of giving a negative opinion, fanbois are acting like guard dogs, jeez.

  • WorstluckWorstluck Member Posts: 1,269

    Originally posted by Asamighost

    My god, this constant Hype boost for Xsyon can be annoying!

    Now all games are bad and Xsyon is the true and only sandbox game, lets face reality you bought the game and you constantly Hype it because you know if this game doesnt have a huge population base it will feel like an empty ghost world, in my opinion most of you are just afraid of it. I bet most people are even afraid of giving a negative opinion, fanbois are acting like guard dogs, jeez.

     

    Uh no.  The game is fun.  Game was fun when population was lower in beta.  Will be fun when it's higher later today when the game launches for preorders.  Everyone has opinions.

    image

  • NoobgrenNoobgren Member Posts: 102

    Originally posted by Hexcaliber

    Originally posted by Noobgren

    If a slightly OT detour is allowed, I'd just like to point out that I've noticed several people calling Fallen Earth a sandbox lately.

    This is misleading and only serves to lower the standards of people actually enjoying free and open games. Fallen Earth is not a sandbox, it is a solo-focused, quest-based PvE game in a static world built upon zoned level progression. It has an extensive crafting system, but that does not make it a sandbox.

    I wish the term sandbox wasn't used so lightly.

    Sandbox refers to an open free form world, and class free mmo, where players decide their build and endgame content, not some pre determined cookie cutter class. While some may argue fallen earth is not truly open world it is free from instanced zones (even early swg and eve online have zone boundaries), and does offer a class less system. It is also immediately obvious you have issues with FE that colour your perception of the games user base and content; I am sure a great many mmo players like I who enjoy sandbox games and have been around since the genres earliest days would happily call FE sandbox.

    I have no issues with FE at all. I even enjoyed playing it for a while. I do have issues with people calling it a sandbox though.

    In my opinion, a sandbox is a place one can influence with one's actions, a place of player freedom and creativity. Although FE's world is big, it is not really open since in practice, you are restricted by which level you are. Although you don't formally need to do quests, in practice you need to - or be at a major disadvantage later on. Also, the quests are very focused on solo play; the whole tutorial part at the beginning even portrays every player as being some kind of unique hero with a special destiny. In a world where player actions matter, the starter area would not blow up every time a new player started the game.

    Although there are no formal classes, you have to conform to the standard "melee/rifleman/pistolman/crafter" setup. The crafting system is pretty good but there is no economy since everyone is self-sufficient. PvP is restricted to dev-created areas. When I played, you could not build or influence the world in any meaningful way whatsoever. It was a static, brown world full of NPCs standing still in town, clusters of stupid mobs respawning ridiculously fast, and solo players running about while ignoring each other.

    I could go on and on, but I think my point is made clear by now.

  • I can see where this may help Xyson. The trick I think that new players like myself will have to focus on is forgetting what I might have learned from hanging out in themeparks too much. One needs to be social and be ready to work well with others. Coming in a game like Xyson with "yo, Imma solo this, watch meh" is not going to work.

     Agree completely and also want to point out don't be too tribe bound.  I've been caught before sooo focused on building up the guild/tribe base that you get burnt out in a major way.  Or just as likely you don't notice that the guild/tribe is slowly disintegrating because you have been making bricks until your brain turns to mush. 

Sign In or Register to comment.