Guardians are the Taliban

Kruul

It must be the dwarven beards that gave us away )

Keridwen

Originally posted by Elikal

WHAT?

Ok, Miss, there are a handful fundamental errors in this thinking. Not what you may expect though.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812694562/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d1_i4?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=0PF9T8YNW2WQ69677AS1&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846

 

Guerrilla Metaphysics: Phenomenology and the Carpentry of Things

 

The current fashions in both mechanistic and fantasy gaming are staunchly anti-metaphysical. There is supposedly no way to talk about the gaming world itself — the gamer is confined to antiseptic discussions of objects, language, or of other modes of human access to the gaming world. We should not aim to reconcile these tensions, but instead, free metaphysics from its anthropocentric residues and reclaim it on behalf of a direct contact with all nonhuman entities. This is the main objective of an object-oriented gaming philosophy which should be comprehensively laid out and pursued step by step. As a "carnal phenomenologist" and a "guerilla carpenter" we will find the pinpoint immediately beyond that acute sense of gaming nothingness. Imagine a novel written by Alain Robbe-Grillet

Xasapis

You're too smart for your own good, hehe

Elikal

Originally posted by Keridwen

Originally posted by Elikal

WHAT?

Ok, Miss, there are a handful fundamental errors in this thinking. Not what you may expect though.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812694562/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d1_i4?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=0PF9T8YNW2WQ69677AS1&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846

 

Guerrilla Metaphysics: Phenomenology and the Carpentry of Things

 

The current fashions in both mechanistic and fantasy gaming are staunchly anti-metaphysical. There is supposedly no way to talk about the gaming world itself — the gamer is confined to antiseptic discussions of objects, language, or of other modes of human access to the gaming world. We should not aim to reconcile these tensions, but instead, free metaphysics from its anthropocentric residues and reclaim it on behalf of a direct contact with all nonhuman entities. This is the main objective of an object-oriented gaming philosophy which should be comprehensively laid out and pursued step by step. As a "carnal phenomenologist" and a "guerilla carpenter" we will find the pinpoint immediately beyond that acute sense of gaming nothingness. Imagine a novel written by Alain Robbe-Grillet

 

You are still bringing in concepts of belief from this world into another. No matter who you quote, it doesn't make it more logical.  Ingame logic can't be measured with Earth philosophy, because the setting is fundamentally different. Gods in a fantasy world are real. That changes every single assumption and makes tranferring Earth's concepts about religion (like your Taliban comparision) invalid.

Measuring game concept with RL philosophies may be interesting in a debating circle. But it does not make sense to playing a role inside a fictional setting. A fictional setting has it's own parameters, given by it's maker. I suggest we stick to those.

One of that parameters given by the inventors is: the Gods of Telara are a proven fact. No clever books from Earth's point of view can avoid that simple fact. It just changes everything. Citing books of others doesn't make what you say more plausible. The difference is actually quite simple:

- A Taliban does not know whether Allah exists or not, or what his will might be. He accepts it by 2nd hands info.

- My Guadian Paladin knows the Gods exists and they told him their will.

I think that is something very simple, you know.

Scot

Utter nonsense, but the thread gave me a laugh so there was a silver lining.

xephonics

a few people (including me) said that was more inline with it

Fdzzaigl

I guess that's why the Defiants use torture devices to rip the souls from their prisoners and such.

The gods are real in RIFT's world, it's provable that they're there and even the Defiants believe in them. Unlike in our own world. The Defiants just don't want to rely on them any more.

VirusDancer

It is funny how people attempt to bring science into it, when that part of the lore is extremely weak.  It is more about the Protestant Reformation and defiance of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

The Eth should be opposed to the use of technology based on their history, so it makes little sense that they would be pushing for tech.  However, they still separated themselves from what they felt was the oppressive nature of the Vigil, et al.

The Kelari split off from the other elves because of their belief in spiritual equality - not putting the Vigil and Gods on top.  This would be heresy.  It has nothing to do with science nor technology, and given the knowledge of what technology has done in the past for various races - they would not be pushing it either.

The Bahmi are the interbred descendants of what would basically be considered "aliens" - being other planar beings.  As elemental shamanists, they had their own religions beliefs - and thus - simply did not fit in with the Vigil's view of the world.  The Eth being the only group that actually accepted them, it would not be that strange to find them associated with the Eth.  However...science?  Technology?  Just does not make sense.

One can see how the Dwarves would end up with the Guardians - they ran into a similar issue as the Eth did as far as technology going horribly wrong - and thus they are seeking redemption (odd that the Eth are not though, you know?).  Still, the Dwarves really come off as a neutral race - so it would make sense that they would be available to all three factions (what?  3?  There are only 2...more later).

Obviously the High Elves as enforcers of the Vigil and the Gods would be "Guardians"...and obviously the Mathosians as puppets of the High Elves would be right there with them...kind of.  Seeing as how Mathosians caused many of the problems, one could see them participating with more than one faction.

To be honest then, it would make sense that there would be members of the Eth that would work with technology as well as those that would be seeking redemption like the Dwarves.

So I had mentioned three factions and not two, eh?  Yep, the lore supports this - almost forces this - and having just two factions is one of the most glaring issues with RIFT based on the lore that Trion has provided us...

Guardians:  High Elves, Mathosians, Dwarves, Eth

Defiant:  Kelari, Eth, Bahmi, Dwarves

Cultists:  Dwarves, Eth, Bahmi, Mathosians

The Guardians are obvious - they are pretty much what they are right now.  The Defiant would actually be defiant for religious reasons, reasons of freedom, opposition to oppression, etc.  Much like the High Elves lead the Guardians, so to speak, the Kelari would lead the Defiant.

What are these Cultists?  They would be the people actually interested in using technology.  They have a history of technology falling into the wrong hands, and these would be those hands.  The Dwarves sealed off Hammerknell.  The Eth hoped their technology would remain buried in the sands after their empire fell.  The Mathosians had their civil war, the Shade War.  And again, seeing as the Eth were the only group that really accepted the Bahmi - it would make sense that some Bahmi would go with them.

For the life of me, I have no idea why Trion came up with the lore they did and then just went with two factions - much less the two factions as currently described.

BadSpock

Originally posted by VirusDancer

For the life of me, I have no idea why Trion came up with the lore they did and then just went with two factions - much less the two factions as currently described.

Game play always trumps lore/history.

They must have felt the game was better served by having two clear, distinct factions.

Do I agree? Yes and no. 

I loved the multi-faction war of UO Factions back in the day, was much more interesting and dynamic then the two-sided war in Warcraft. The DAOC faithful will always point to the "3 > 2" philosophy on PvP.

IMHO something has to be sacrificed for the polished, refined, AAA quality we've seen thus far in Rift. 

Could they have given the same level of polish and quality to a game with 50% more content (i.e. a third faction)? probably not.

As with Warhammer or SWG who tried to stretch far too much, the polish and quality suffers.

 

That being said, what an amazing expansion it would make to introduce a 3rd playable faction instead of simply adding more races/classes.

Could be tied into the lore very nicely, as well as the evolving story. Perhaps some of the Guardians start to doubt the Gods will save them, some of the Defiant begin to doubt their technology will grant them victory etc. and they break off, band together to find a new way forward not reliant on the Gods or technology but instead of the stength of their own backs and sweat of their brow, etc.

Dalano

Originally posted by Keridwen 

Guerrilla Metaphysics: Phenomenology and the Carpentry of Things

 

Heh, thanks for picking my next book for me. Too bad it's not available for Kindle.

And while game worlds do have their own set of parameters, those parameters are put in place by someone from our world, living within the parameters we all share. Therefore, it is logical to discuss game worlds in terms of the real world, as every game world is a simply a reflection of our own.

BACONX

My question- will this alter the balance in favour of the Defiant? Since most of us would probably play progressives than crusaders...my opinion.

Dalano

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by VirusDancer

For the life of me, I have no idea why Trion came up with the lore they did and then just went with two factions - much less the two factions as currently described.

Game play always trumps lore/history.

They must have felt the game was better served by having two clear, distinct factions.

Do I agree? Yes and no. 

I loved the multi-faction war of UO Factions back in the day, was much more interesting and dynamic then the two-sided war in Warcraft. The DAOC faithful will always point to the "3 > 2" philosophy on PvP.

IMHO something has to be sacrificed for the polished, refined, AAA quality we've seen thus far in Rift. 

Could they have given the same level of polish and quality to a game with 50% more content (i.e. a third faction)? probably not.

As with Warhammer or SWG who tried to stretch far too much, the polish and quality suffers.

 

That being said, what an amazing expansion it would make to introduce a 3rd playable faction instead of simply adding more races/classes.

Could be tied into the lore very nicely, as well as the evolving story. Perhaps some of the Guardians start to doubt the Gods will save them, some of the Defiant begin to doubt their technology will grant them victory etc. and they break off, band together to find a new way forward not reliant on the Gods or technology but instead of the stength of their own backs and sweat of their brow, etc.

Good point, but Trion's not trying to pigeonhole a third party ip into a workable game design here. This is their own lore, and you'd think they'd try to make it reflective of the actual in-game experience, or vice-versa.

Props to Virusdancer for pointing out the disconnect between lore and game-play. If they had set it up as he described, I'd be salivating for release.

Amana

This is just not appropriate for this forum. Locking.