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My theory why DCU will fail
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
Ok, it is a hypothethis, a theory, based on experience in beta and some tinkering around a weekend on a friend's account. Keep in mind, I don't say it is necessarily so as I say. I just offer a theory and now is your task to critizise. (Such is the way of scientific method: theory and critique.) So here we go.
My theory is, that DCU hasn't made any big and fundamental flaws. They have made several minor bad decisions in the process of desinging this game, and those add to a negative synergy. Meaning, they all strengthen some negative effects and add up to "deforming" the game in the same direction. So what are no big issues in itself, add to a strong negative current, so to speak. The result is, simply said, that most people will rush through the solo content as if playing a single player game and then quit, having run out of things they can or want to do. Which not necessarily means that nothing would be there to do!
1) The UI: It is clear that the main issue of the UI, besides being cumbersome is from my point of view: it essentially kills the social aspect. It is difficult to really talk to another, to make groups, you can't just click with the mouse and do things we are used to do them. I know many here will say, hey it's no big deal, but the truth is that many MMO gamers are people of habit. And lazy people; not really the patient sort of human. They won't spent a lot of time researching, reading or following longwinded instuctions. They try one or two things out and when it doesn't function they give it up. Result: many people will be much more inclined to solo as much as possible. An already existing trend in MMOs is furthered by the bad UI.
2) Most quests are soloable in the levelling content. While SOE all touted that the levelling content is only a small part of their game, that did and could not change the perception the vast majpority of gamers have, that for THEM the heart and soul of a MMO is indeed the levelling process and endgame for them is just the cherry on top of the ice cream. Now the soloable content to level to max level is by any average MMO playstyle likely to be seen in a matter of weeks. SOE always in interviews emphasizes how wonderful it is that DCU is a casual game. As to play 1-2 hours a day or so. I think those players virtually don't exist. And IF they exist, they hardly play an action game like DCU. So I am quite sure (while it is a mere assumption), the vast majority of DCU players will indeed have been to max level and through most content in a brief time. Way less than SOE expects.
3) A sidecurrent but definitely adding to the negative synergy: a lot of stuff is given to guesswork. Like powers and their descriptions. I recall when I could take one of this "hallmark powers" (don't recall the exact name) like Supermans laser eyes, I had this list of special powers to chose, and NONE of the descriptions told me ANYTHING. The laser eyes power just said, it shoots lasers from the eyes. End of description. It said nothing about the exact damage; was it dmg over time or a one time blast? If it did last, how long does it last? Does it damage only one foe or many? I knew nothing about the power. And so with all other powers. When I play EQ2 or WOW, say my WOW Mage, and I have fire shield or ice shield. It says EXACTLY 3% more crit chance, 40% change to slow down an enemy 30%; I can see exactly what damage my fireball does, how much what ice attack will slow down asf. I have a clear and exact information what does what. Which makes (a) selecting the power you want possible and (b) allows you to plan a strategy. The negative synergy effect is: people will have greater difficulty to cooperate, since they don't know much about THEIR OWN strengths and weaknesses and even LESS about those of other players. They are left to either guesswork or many long sessions of co-op play in the game. It takes a long time, many try and error sessions and many costly respecs to learn the power system.
4) The target system is just a mess. I don't think this needs to be elaborated. It is part of the UI issue, like having no mouse to select thing. Too often the target systen will chose inanimate objects or add new mobs accidentally.
INTERMEDIATE CONCLUSION:
So far we have four strong reasons to drive people away from co-op working and driving people to rather do things alone. Simply to avoid the stress, people solo whenever they can.
5) There is no real aggro management system. When people group, many report that they as mezzers or healers all have aggro on them, being knocked around like mad. One of the things I found highly annoying, how often I was knocked around, stunned or otherwise interrupted. DCU relies a lot on regular and timely blocking. This skill is a player skill, and not something many really ever mastered. My observation was, that a lot more people have difficulties with this console typical skill than SOE wants to believe. It makes a game with virtually no real aggro management a hassle for many to play. Now when you are solo, you can somewhat manage how much you take, so you can progress somewhat. In a group, this planning goes all haywire.
6) Boss Mobs and all the difficult endgame content is designed like a console game: it is all about knowing EXACTLY what you have to do. It can't be solved with just run in and having some experience. You MUST know exactly what is going on, what to do at what time, how to cooperate with your team mates. This is a classic action game system from console games, and I bet most PC gamers are not really experience in it. And this is the crux of it all: DCU makes most players avoid teamwork in the levelling process, so people have zero experience in tam work, the UI makes talking and coordinating a hassle and most find a sudden and steep rise in difficulty. Added the still many bugs lead to quick frustration. RESULT: Many feel locked out of the group and endgame content because it only frustrates them and they leave that content aside. The calculation of SOE was this: we have not enough levelling content, so we catch that up with making endgame and group content so difficult, that people need a lot of time to learn, to prepare and to retry, before succeeding it, so we keep people subscribed slowing them down with this difficult content. I don't think I really need to elaborate how absurd this idea is.
7) Finally: DCU took the gearscore concept from WOW. Yes, the gearscore is hidden. But it is THERE. The idea is: to manage the more interesting endgame scenarious, you NEED to have certain gear. This was a bad decision for three reasons:
a) Most Superhero gamers are used to play CoX and CO, which had either no gear or no substantial, desisive gear drop. CO is flooding you with so much gear, it never really matters. So a big part of the likely audience for DCU will find the WOW-esque access with gear an alien concept.
b) I think SOE greatly mistook the willingness of players to grind for high end gear from looking at WOW. When you look at WOW, you see all those people on their Dragons in their purple high end gear, but I assume, the vast vast majority of people never really cared about end gear, in WOW or in any other game. On the contrarty, I think most MMO gamers try endgame a bit out of curiosity and then reroll. It's only a very small elitarian percentage who really takes the long hassle to make all this endgame stuff. For the majority hitting the max level is end of the game and reroll.
c) Given how fast you are through the solo content, as a result is means a relatively large part - the entire endgame - shuts people out who don't want to do endgame grind. And again, I think those are more than you may think.
So the result of # 7 is: a lot of endgame content is not only difficult in itself for said reasons of # 6, but because it is made with the concept that you NEED certain high end gear to succeed. I am sure many players of DCU aren't even aware of that. They will just jump into some instance, fail miserabe and eat their keyboards.
8) SOE or no MMO company can EVER create so much new content every month, that an average player is busy a month playing that new content.
CONLUSION: If you really put these things together, for me it clearly spells failure for this game as much as for Vanguard or Matrix, even if for slightly different reasons. Add the many other issues, like the lack of visual design choices compare to CO or CoX and the plethora of bugs, it just can't work out well. Also, while I don't want to beat the SOE-drum overmuch: look at the history of SOE. It always took them half a year to a full year to really cope with issues. I just don't see it in their history that they have the capacity to quickly work with issues. Nor the will to admit the issues before it is way too late.
The result is simply this: a vast majority will quickly browse through the soloable content, tinker a bit with endgame and group content, find it lacking for above said reasons and quit; maybe hoping SOE will by a miracle patch add tons of solo content and new levels, which I expect will not happen anytime soon. Prediction from the conclusion: DCU will be in the same position as WAR, AoC, Vanguard and many others by the end of the year. With SOE being as immobile and slow as we know, they will drag it along in station access as the many other failed or halfbaked games they have.
I admit, it takes some creativity so see the synergy of these flaws. But to me they are quite clear. Try to really inhale them, consider them before you just brush them off with a 1-sentence reply. 
(And YES I am bored, lol. Blame MMO companies....)
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
1) The UI is being fixed in the February patch, whether it will be completely fixed or not we do not know. You will likely not be able to unlock the mouse pointer, that would be useless in this game.
2) Even at end game you have challenge missions that are completely soloable, as are the stryker island missions, all of which give you marks. You can then take those marks and exchange them for the other, higher tier PvE gear if you absolutely cannot win any Hard Mode alerts. People often pretend hard mode alerts are TOO hard, but even the raids are passable by a well played group using PvE gear. There are a number of ways to get your end game gear, and it seems you haven't played the game long enough to know any of them.
3) Power descriptions are being worked on, they may or may not be available on the february patch. The developers have already stated these would be fixed in an upcoming patch. It is unlikely you'll get exact damage modifiers on all power and healing, as it will differ depending on what role you are in, what your might, restoration etc. score is, what gear you're wearing, and in the case of Iconic powers it may change depending on your class, too.
4) Targeting takes some getting used to, and even then you can have the odd slip up, but you have a number of options with targetting. For M&K users I would say play in WSD mode, and set auto lock if you are having a problem staying targeted on a mob. Then if you accidentally mistarget, you just tap tab and refocus the camera. I very rarely have issues with targeting mobs unless the area is exceptionally crowded, and in that case, in a regular MMO, you'd just be hitting (tab tab tab tab tab) or using your mouse to click whatever was in your LOS even if that wasn't your intended target. Theres also the off chance that I am actually aimng for a barrel or something situated in a group of enemies, so targeting inanimates isn't always bad.
5) There are aggro management systems, people just have to use them. Tanks have to actively pull aggro, use their powers, focus big mobs. Healers and controllers will gain aggro too if the tank isn't doing his job. Controllers, ice tanks, even healers, all help in controlling mobs. Encasements are available for almost every power set, so are roots, stuns, etc. so controlling a mob while the tank regains aggro if it is ever lost is also a very important skill for PvE.
6) Boss mobs and certain mobs often do have some nuances on how to beat them, and I really don't see how thats a bad thing at all. It makes you think, and requires skill, which is what this game is built around. You have to think, and sometimes even be imaginative if your group isn't spec'd properly or a member accidentally drops. Knowing what to do to beat the bossess is only half the battle, executing it is the other half. Hard end game content is supposed to be challenging. It makes it that much sweeter when you actually complete it. If you can't handle the tougher end game content, you can do the easier end game content.
7) Gear isn't that hard to come by and you really don't need the best gear in the game to do the top end content. As stated before, in another thread too, you gain gear from Duos and Challenges, even the high end iconic gear through marks from those, and that gear doesn't take a lot of grind, its roughly 6 - 13 marks per piece. You'll get drops in the Duos and Challenges that are fairly comparable too, and the purple gear drops are fairly common and have excellent stats.
8) We'll wait and see what happens when they release their end game content. If you really think about it, they can make players go back and play an entire months worth of content all over again just by releasing 1 new power set or a new mentor.
::Conclusion:: Your very basic knowledge of the game based on beta and "a weekend on a friends account" although may be a very real conclusion by you, to those that have spent more time in the game -- long enough to understand the concepts and the end game, a lot of your points don't really make much sense.
The main avenues where SOE went wrong, apart from the PC UI which is being fixed would be the major combat bugs for PvPers, and hiding their Feat system instead of focusing on it the entire time. Players would probably be much better at max level if they strived to get their feats on the way up. Those are really the major problems here, power descriptors could be better, but, as you can respec at any time, it really isn't that big of an issue, and you can try all of the powers for yourself, as well as the weapons, without having to create new characters.
You are trying entirely to hard and completely over thinking things which are obvious to even players who enjoy the game. Thank you for your long winded opinion on obvious issues, and your "scientific" conclusion. I will tell you like I tell every forum hero ; Give the game time to mature.
You know what's killing DCUO right now? That they spent too much time on graphics and voice acting and not enough on the actual content that keeps players coming back. It's like the guy who gets with a gorgeous woman (or vice versa) then finds out that on the inside, they're a shallow, egotistical *****. "Pretty" might grab the initial attention but it's never enough to keep it.
While your post has grains of truth, your "theory" is critically flawed in many ways.
First and foremost is that your experience is based on you playing to level 20 in beta. That gives you no insight to the current game, or the end-game content. A few hours "tinkering" on a friends account doesn't cut it.
The next is based on what you think people like (more likely what you specifically like) rather than actual facts.
1) Yes, the UI is more cumbersome than many PC MMOers are used to, but it's not that bad. It's more a case of adapting to something different. The chat part is bad, but it has been known for a while that they were working on updating it, and that should be out soon.
2) You think that people don't really care about end-game content, and only care about leveling. That is wrong. Clearly, that is what you care about. Many people just want to get to the end-game content ASAP, and grind to get there. I remember back in DAOC when they gave you the option to start new characters at level 20 to shorten the grind....because that is what people wanted. Yes, some people don't care for end-game content, but this game was clearly not designed to appeal to everyone. Many people left CoH because it was all leveling, with no end-game. While other games have tons of high level grouping/raiding going on.
3) Yes, the game could use better descriptions. However, you are overstating the problem. The game doesn't need exact numerical values, since you are dealing with unique individual powers. You either want that power or you don't. Most of the passive skills, do provide number values or percentages. Besides, better descriptions is something that can easily be modified once the bigger issues are addressed. Certainly not a factor in the game failing.
4) Targetting needs to be improved. Something that everyone agrees with, but again, something you are overstating. It's an annoyance at worst. But there is a target lock so that you don't lose the target. I think a lot of your problems are because you don't use the tools at hand.
5) One of many reasons why your experience in beta, as a reference for your theory, is useless. Aggro issues were addressed a while back. Pretty much like most other MMO's, tanks can control aggro, which wasn't working in beta, and excessive controller aggro was addressed. Plus controllers have the ability to de-aggro. Basically a non issue.
6) This is all you. No MMORPG has group boss fights that don't require some strategy and tactics, and pretty much all high level dungeons and raids do. Yes, you need people to know how to play like a team, and know how to play their role, but that goes for any MMO. This game doesn't require anything to be done "exactly". You just need to know how to play in a group. The alerts require far less exact strategy than many dungeons in other games, like EQ2. YOU find it difficult, but many MMO players will not find it any more difficult than games they have played before, once they get use to the combat system. You want the fights to be easy and require no thought, but most would find that boring.
7) Again, this is simply your opinion on what other people want rather than actual facts. Many people enjoy grinding for gear. It is part of what motivates them, along with the challenge of the fight. While you want everything to be even for everyone regardless of the effort put into it.
a) CoH had gear. It just didn't take the shape of equipment. You slotted powers to make them better, in various ways. They expanded on that quite a bit in later updates, which required crafting, rare loot, and expensive broker purchases to get the stuff you wanted/needed. Why? Because that is what people wanted. Right now, DCUO is nowhere near that. General loot is easy to come by, and iconic armor can be purchased with marks you earn doing group stuff.
b) Not just WoW. Most MMO's. Even CoH had a grind for better gear, but it was irrelevant, because there was no endgame to use it in. Your view of end-game play is extremely skewed. You clearly have no idea what other people do. In EQ2 there are raids and high level dungeon runs going on constantly. People don't just try it and then reroll. Heck, raids there require 24 people each (DCUO raids only require 8). I'm thinking that far more people care about it than you are willing to acknowledge.
c) Yes, it definitly limits those that don't want to group. I do think they need to expand the solo content. It's definitely a little thin at the moment, but I'm sure they will add more over time. There is going to be more group and solo content in the upcoming update. You can still do the solo missions and collect the smaller marks to trade for the higher marks. Or you can do duos for full marks. All of which are pretty easy at this point. However, you have mentioned in the past that you dislike the combat since you actually have to pay attention, so I'm guessing that that is your biggest problem.
8) I'm not sure I get that. No other MMO I know of actually updates content anywhere near that often. If they can actually do that with DCUO, it would be amazing.
Conclusion? Well, most of the problems you list are due to what you want rather than what other people want. This game was never meant to be a WoW killer. Some people will not like the action combat style. Your only real experience with the game was level 20 in beta, so you really have no clue about the end-game content. You want an easy solo experience, but all the rewards of grouping high level content. Whereas most people feel that you need to earn it. You find the group stuff difficult, but it is no more difficult than group stuff in other MMORPG's.
The game is far from perfect. There are definitely things they need to work on. They definitely need to add more content. There is a lot of redundancy, and some people will get bored quickly with the current content, especially those that primarily solo. Hopefully the monthly updates will expand on it a lot more. The chat interface should be updated soon, so hopefully that will make a big difference. We will see.
While I'm not sure the game will fail (assuming they can patch out a lot of the exploits, I think PvP alone will keep the game going for a while), I think you (the OP) did raise some good points. For my part, I think I let my subscription expire for some of the very reasons you described.
Its pretty easy to pick apart any game and its not what i would call scientific. A scientific method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. Since you admit you aren't even playing the game atm your observations are hardly scientific.
1) Yes the UI needs work but you get used to it. Its not a make or break part of the game.
2) Yes its easy to hit max level but i prefer it with DCUO. It means i can try other classes and not have to worry about being burnt out on the grind. Some people like this others don't. Its a personal preference not a flaw of the game.
3) I agree this should have been better before DCUO was released. It wasn't and i know people will not bother doing any research or testing of their own but it doesn't make the game unplayable.
4) The target system is fine if you know how to use it. That said i'm sure people will not be able to work it out on their own.
5) I have no trouble keeping aggro on my fire tank. I have however ran across tanks on my controller who don't seem to understand the mechanics at all and bosses just ping pong around everyone.
6) End game is NOT hard. I have pugged nearly every alert both normal and hard. In good groups its a breeze and too easy...in bad ones its a struggle but i have yet to not finish an alert except for it bugging out. I'll say that again...i have NEVER failed to finish an alert.
7) Gear does make a difference but not compared to an average mmo. I was able to go into the hard alerts as soon as i hit 30 still in green lvl20 gear and make it through. Sure getting some upgrades from those alerts made it easier but knowing/understanding the game mechanics is more important than gear.
In my opinion DCUO needs 2 things to keep its subs. More content (group and solo) and to fix the exploits/hacks in a timely manner so pvp becomes fun again not an "o crap wth killed me" it is now. I can put up with everything else till it gets fixed but these 2 things need to happen sooner rather than later.
I also think other factors will decide whether it succeeds or fails. Things like the parts of industry moving towards F2P/B2P with micro-transactions (and being successful at it). Increased competition from quality games this year like Rift, SWTOR and possibly GW2.
Wow, the OP did a considerable amount of work to defame a game.
UI and chat will be fixed. Move along. The game makes up for this shortfall atm.
Although I disagree with your points, I need only to say DCUO is SOE's fastest selling game EVER.
DC is solid, yes many quests are soloable, BUT the open world area spawns are VERY EASY to get overun if you are alone. That is NOT including being flaggable for PVP (or the PVP server). There is PLENTY of group content, ESPECIALLY at level 30.
This game is NOT about a long level grind. It is about enjoying the stories written by JIM LEE (my biggest point AGAINST failure). Go read up on Jim Lee. His work has been excellent. THIS IS NOT A TYPICAL SOE CREW. It is a DC crew.
DCUO is a VERY solid sandbox action PVP MMO with nicely done storyline optional quests. Very open feel to the world. Quests in the world are well written to bring you into contact with the enemy. You actually have a reason to fight, not just grinding.
Very well done and sometimes comedic voice overs. They do have some cheeseball voices for certain NPC, but it is not all ment to be serious. Gave me a laugh when a NPC said "All of your souls are belong to mee!" I then punched him and sent him flying off the roof, as he was over the edge you hear him yell "AhhhhHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhh." Very fun stuff.
Then again with the performances for (Mark Hammel) The Joker, and (Jane in Firefly) Superman, this game deserves a audio award hands down.
DC is NOT WOW. It is NOT TRYING TO BE WOW. If your looking for WoW 2.0 you want Rift.
If you want a MMO where you can throw a buss at someone this is the right place
Actually, DCUO borrowed more concepts from wow than CoX or CO, the gear progression grind. I has always thought about DCUO a bit like wow in spandex. Funny you said that DCUO is a sandbox when it is actually conceived more as themepark, and it requires more than open pvp for a game to work well as sandbox. It needs that players actions has some meaning in the universe like controlling zones.
I think the main problem with DCUO is that even thought it has many wonderful ideas, they didn't really connected nicely in the game. The lack of crafting was a huge mistake.
It is a action sandbox with themepark options. The 2 cities are 2 sandboxes you can choose to do what you want.
WoW? Can you throw a buss at an enemy in WoW? WoWs combat would put me to sleep.
DC blows CoH and CO out of the water. Those games don't hold a candle to DC.
Crafting? This is a action superhero MMO, not This Old House. I have the people in Watchtower to craft my gear once they like me enough. DCUO isn't about gear. Player skill is MUCH more important then gear in DC
It is a well done action MMO. A refreshing change. It is also still quite young. Jim Lee as creative lead directer is a huge plus for future content. The stories so far are nicely done.
I don't know how you can stay calling this game a sandbox when the only sandbox element I can see is open pvp. I don't see league housing, league wars or anything that make that the pvp actions has some meaning for the world. By your words, I can conclude that wow is also a sandbox with thempark options.
Sorry but no one can seriously use the term 'sandbox' in the same sentence as DCUO. Every sandox game has deep activities outside of combat: crafting, politics/alliance drama, trade and construction. DCUO has none of those. It's as much of a sandbox as Quake Arena.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
I'm still finding DCUO tremendous fun, it has flaws and the UI will always be....contentious fixed or not. The levelling and combat are very different from traditional mmo fare...the endgame is fairly typical. Maskedweasel has made an appropriate response to most points but I think the main issue DCUO faces is that despite a rather general consensus of being perceieved as fun, of delivering on the IP, players actually want those grindy, generic staples and if they get their way it could very easily be to the exclusion of fun. DCUO is not your typical mmo which is both its greatest success and its greatest obstacle for long term success.
Generic and staple mmo timesumps like crafting are imo entirely inappropriate for such a game/genre and I would not welcome them at all. For once we have a game developed where the IP is respected and afforded the kind of priority it deserves to make the experience feel that bit different, I hope dogma and in bred nepotism don't undermine the path it has taken its one of the few real alternatives out there
I agree with you that this is exactly what DCUO is and what SOE have done. I'm not sure about the nepotism reference but whatever. It isn't your typical MMO and SOE and DCUO players shouldn't expect the game to be as popular as a AAA traditional MMO. Without the traditional staples like item creation and better social controls it will be niche, even in the company of other super hero games.
That is not to say that the game won't do very well for itself. What will make or break the game is not the content per se but how fast the squash the game disrupting bugs that are rampent in the game at the moment. They really need to look after their pvp players better and give them an even playing field without 'glitch-to-win'.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
I don't think people specifically want to grind, but rather they want things to do. Crafting is just a reference to something people are familiar with and I suspect if they were introduced to some other activity in DCU that was fun they would enjoy that. Perhaps there would still be calls for more familiar features, but not so much if there were more things to do.
Take the speed of leveling for example. Most discussion focus on the time it takes to level and not the actual journey. Sure fast leveling makes it painless to get to end game or make multiple characters, but there really isn't much of a journey there. A few days worth and then it is over and gone which is not much of a journey. It is a quick trip to endgame that rapidly changes into repeating content that was mostly experienced already. It isn't like the journey was quick, because it opens up a world of fresh new content that has long lasting appeal.
I think there is a lot of merit in the points made in the original post. DCU isn't as bad as MXO or Vanguard by a long shot, but it does have significant problems to overcome to have any chance at long lasting appeal. Much of what was originally listed is the current state of the game and promises to fix those in the future are just words.
DCUO is a sandbox? That's the funniest thing I've read on this site, well, possibly ever.
DCUO is the epitome of themepark. Not only is DCUO a themepark, it's also probably one of the most limited, linear themeparks to come out in years. And it follows many of the same MMO design concepts WoW does, especially the instance grind for gear and tokens at endgame.
This game lacks variety in gameplay more than most MMOs.
Sandbox? Not even close.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
DCUO is not a linear, limited themepark .. at all. I invite you to play Warhammer for a linear, limited themepark.
DCUO holds the middle ground between a themepark and a Sandbox .. incorporating both elements well, without detracting from either style. The game holds as much variety in gameplay as a traditional MMO ( including WoW ) with the exception of crafting. WoW did not coin gear grinds, or currency rewarded items... they have been, and will continue to be a staple of MMO's.
There are enough flaws within the game to keep people spewing fourm rants without quiveling over these sort of inaccuracies. Let's just stick to the things the game needs to improve.
Which sandbox elements do you think DCUO does well? Specifically.
From the definitions I've seeing thrown around here, just about every MMO could be considered a sandbox.
In DCUO, you pick a "ride", generally instanced PvE or instanced PvP are the only options. Making that "choice" isn't sandbox.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
What if the PC version is a total fail? They close the servers, etc. But then, the PS3 version trucks along at about 500k subscriptions for several years. Does it still count as a failure then?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think its pretty clear where I stand on DCUO by now, but I will say, without a doubt, DCUO is not a sandbox game.
It doesn't have very many sandbox elements either, making it a poor hybrid and more strictly speaking, it is a "theme park".
Leveling is highly quest based, you don't gain nearly enoug XP through PvP to advance that way, missions are given to you upon level, and you are taken through each of them in a very linear progression system. The only major change is that you can choose what missions to do when, and how to complete them. Ultimately, rerolling on the same side you won't be doing many different things to level.
End game is gear, feat, and raid progression, theres no real crafting or economy, and the only player made events are when one side groups to attack the other side on the PvP server. Everything else is restricted by arenas and queue times.
Your powers are essentially locked in as well as your role, and eventhough there are tons of powers you can choose from to fix your 6 slots, you can't automatically respec to another power set entirely locking down a lot of choices on your character.
Note, none of this is bad, but its not really a sandbox, or even a hybridized system. Its pretty clear that, as there is not much that effects the overall world other then capture points which are fleeting and change way too often and effect very little, and the community inspired events are all focused around combat with no lasting world changes, and there is relatively no economy, nor would there be much of one with the AH, the game shows to be a pretty clear themepark experience.
Sandbox elements in DCUO :
1. Open World PvP.
2. Multiple locales to explore, each area with content diffrent from the next independant of their surrounding neighboorhoods. Players are not locked from exploring or engaging in this content because the "hub" hasn't been unlocked or their level is to low ( within reason ).
3. World points of conflict, either engineered or player driven. Be it a popular landmark , roaming boss , or hot spot for quest based mobs.
There are more, thats for certain but the few above will etertain you enough for your dissection.
Your gameplay must be limited to videos or second hand experience if you think that pve and pvp is limited to instances. You will however notice I do not call DCUO a sandbox , simply hybrid of the two system which incorporates elements of both styles into its scheme.
Which sandbox elements do you think DCUO does well? Specifically.
From the definitions I've seeing thrown around here, just about every MMO could be considered a sandbox.
In DCUO, you pick a "ride", generally instanced PvE or instanced PvP are the only options. Making that "choice" isn't sandbox.
Sandbox elements in DCUO :
1. Open World PvP.
2. Multiple locales to explore, each area with content diffrent from the next independant of their surrounding neighboorhoods. Players are not locked from exploring or engaging in this content because the "hub" hasn't been unlocked or their level is to low ( within reason ).
3. World points of conflict, either engineered or player driven. Be it a popular landmark , roaming boss , or hot spot for quest based mobs.
There are more, thats for certain but the few above will etertain you enough for your dissection.
Your gameplay must be limited to videos or second hand experience if you think that pve and pvp is limited to instances. You will however notice I do not call DCUO a sandbox , simply hybrid of the two system which incorporates elements of both styles into its scheme.
None of those are sandbox features.
You've described many features of Rift's PvP servers. They're mostly just features of MMORPG and aren't sandbox or themepark. The only thing that could be a "sandbox" feature is the ability to run through any zone...but you can do that with Rift too. You're going to die a lot, but there's nothing stopping you but the choice to do it or not.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I find them to be features I associate with sanboxs. We mmo players are a fickle bunch and the deifnitions behind what is a "sandbox" is diffrent for just about every player. I could debate all day which is or isn't a feature of a sandbox game , but it would be waste of time and board space.
My point in this thread is simply to refute the claim that DCUO is a linear, limited themepark. It is far from that definition so much so it includes elements which are associated with sandbox titles.
*rofl* no, you really didn't refute the claim that DCUO is a "linear, limited theme park." What you have done is prove that you have no idea what a sandbox is, unquestionably.
I'm curious, what do you define as the most important sandbox elements? I know there are many views on sandbox, but when thinking abut it SWG, the great sandbox game, had 2 sandbox elements, namely the pre-cu skill system and housing, or am I missing something? It had quests and "mob grind" just as many other games, like Rift and AoC. Rift's soul system is a bit more sandboxy than for instance AoC's feats.
I think "fail" is too strong of a word to use. I think it would be better to state your theory as "Why DCUO will not be as successful as it should". As for your reasons, I'm inclined to agree with them...mostly.
1.) I think launching with the ui, particularly chat, as-is was a terribe, terrible design decision. Frankly, it is such a terrible offense that the Director should be fired for it. Why? Because if the crux of the game, the endgame, is going to be about teaming up and raiding, then it requires collaboration, obviously. Making communication and finding people to play with a hassle only pushes people away from this and, ultimately, away from the game. I don't see why new games aren't outright stealing the City of Heroes chat, team-finding, and grouping systems.
2.) I don't have an issue with soloing content. An important issue is the lack of incentive to group together, just like in Champions Online. I do agree that the lack of content is the cardinal issue. Too little to do and no real incentive to play it again, by yourself or with people. Re-rolling alts in City of Heroes is fun because team synergies make it fun every single time.
3.) I don't think lack of information is such an issue, more frustrating to the min-maxers I suspect, and easily addressable.
4.) Targeting is contentious. The PC-mmo gamer definitely seems tohave complained about it more.
5.) Your aggro-management theory is interesting.
6.) I don't see this as relevant, or at least it isn't necessarily communicated clearly. Good raids and bosses require planning, which pc gamers have experience with -- it's just not exclusive to console gamers. The problem is that the lack of tools for grouping and communication undermine this, as does possibly the lack of experience with your character (due to content you burn through so quickly) making those battles tougher. The lack of content could be equated to powerleveling to endgame and then not knowing how to play the character.
7.) Yes, endgame is basically gear grinding. To correct some people, CoX has something similar to gear, enhancements. But, the game is balanced around those enhancements that are dropped. Yes, some people grind for high end "purples" and special invention recipes, but that is just to uber....those are the min-maxers. Still, not a requirement of the game.
8.) Absolutely, agree.
Ultimately, I think DCUO will be a flash in the pan. It will be a great initial experience and then drop off. As the saying goes, you never get a second chance to make a first impression and DCUO has too many poor design decisions to overcome to make it a long-term success....they may get addressed eventually, but by then it will be too late. Hopefully the Marvel mmo designers are taking note.
Edit: This isn't creative thinking btw, it is critical thinking and it comes easier with experience.
Edit 2: corrected a few grammar issues and cleaned up point 6 to be clearer.