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Game Designer Worship
TheFarseer
Member Posts: 97
I don't understand the worship of certain game designers.
It's been shown time and time again that game designers who've gotten a single good idea and implemented it in an MMO absolutely fail at replicating anything close to that success. The only person who's come anywhere near it is Sid Meier and I'm not certain he even works on games with his name on them anymore.
A successful game relies more on the people working at a company (the collective group of people, no individuals) than it does a singular game designer. And, yet, when most people see a "famous" game designer go to a certain company, they squee in delight and wonder if they're going to make a game exactly like the one they loved.
Look at Bullfrog versus Lionhead. Bullfrog had an amazing group of people that repeatedly stunned players with revolutionary gameplay, game mechanics etc. And then Lionhead came along, with Peter Molyneux at the forefront, and really failed at delivering on the same level of "AMAZINGA" that Bullfrog did.
Maybe it's that I don't understand fanboyism at all, but it just confuses the hell out of me that people fanboy for game designers who got lucky with a company and then fail on their own.
Can anyone explain?
( An example in another form of media would be George Lucas. Turned out he was a useless buffoon when he did stuff without lots of constraints and other people telling him he was a useless buffoon. That's essentially what most of these game designers are like. )
Comments
I've read several books on leadership that would say otherwise.
A single game designer can be the victory or failure of a game.
And the reason some of them fail? Honestly, I don't know. Yet you can see some developers...
1) The guy who made the original Horizons-- he was fired / he quit because they tried to control his vision and not allow him to do what he wanted. The result? A failed game (Idk the success of Horizons, but back when it released it was suppose to be a biggie, and wasn't).
2) Richard Garriott, who may or may not be responsible for Tabula Rasa. He claims the company screwed him over and threw him out, causing the game to fail. Is it true? Idk. But this guy is responsible for more than just ONE success.
In fact, there are SEVERAL game developers who continuously pop out successful game after successful game. It may not be MMO after MMO, but honestly MMO's are less common than other types of games and seem to take longer to release.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I think it's like with bands, where people often adore the lead singer most, while he/she may not even have been the driving force and cause of the band's success, the songwriter could be someone else in the band. But it's the lead singer has the highest profile.
I think dev & designer teams are more like soccer teams maybe, you can have someone who's very talented, but it could have been the entire team that made it shine. Put them in another team even if it's Milan or Barcelona, and they could end up being a lot less successful.
Some people tend to think that the magic that caused Bullfrog or other companies to make great games is bottled up in 1 or 2 persons, the lead designers or game director, while when they're gone it proved to be the entire team that made the magic happen. People like to worship or adulate their idols.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I can't speak for others, but I can definitely explain why I'm a fanboi of a dev.
Richard Garriott kicks ass.
I've liked his stuff since Akalabeth. Ultima 2 was a triumph of open-ended gameplay in a PC game. Ultima 4 tried new approaches to character creation and fantasy RPG gameplay outside of hack-n-slash and puzzles. All the cool part sof the games he put out were the result of his direction and deisgn. When I finally got a chance to sit and talk to him, he spoke with both passion and humility. He was not afraid to admit where he made mistakes and he was proud of the hurdles he had overcome in pursuit of his many successes.
"But... what about tabula Rasa?" Honestly, throughout development I really had little idea of what it was or what it was inteded to be, so I had very little attachment to that. I think however if I was more attached to TR, that game and the nonsense around it may have colored my view of RG.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Everyone has their successes and failures.
I don't think anyone is stupid enough these days to think that one man has the midas touch, but people who have had a significant impact on the whole shape of the industry deserve some respect. I mean Peter Molyneux may not make amazing titles all the time, but the guy invented an entire genre (god games), something that simply didn't exist before.
And then there is Will Wright, who most probably remember for his last games over-hyping (Spore), but this is the guy that gave us SimCity and then gave us The Sims, the biggest PC franchise ever (yes bigger than COD still).
Sid Meier doesn't have much to do with the games any more, beyond being something of a license holder saying nay or yay, but he did create Civlisation, probably the best and most well known turn based strategy game of all time.
So, just because some people get fanatical about following them, doesn't mean they aren't great influential people who have helped shape a fantastic industry and form of entertainment.
I still agree with him. There are hundreds of people working at companies, often times the "good" people don't get the credit they deserve. It's obvious who is a good programmer or artist, so long standing MMO companies like SoE or Blizzard tend to have really good artists and programmers because they know exactly who they are, but it's not so obvious who is responsible for the design and feel of the game or gameplay.
A lot of the things we liked from older MMO were likely made by people who we don't even know, not by the big shot names who took all the credit.
You just have to look at the credits for games like EQ and WoW, there are THOUSANDS of names in those lists.
Look at The Vision, Brad McQuaid, everyone thought he was amazing and most of the people interested in Vanguard were there because Brad was developing the game. Turns out he was nothing more than a frontman who was never around on the job and the times he was in he was asking for narcotics. Real winner there.
The good things in Vanguard DID NOT come from Brad McQuaid who was never around, they came from the collective working for Sigil.
That's the thing. I don't think Peter Molyneux invented the genre.
Richard Garriott is a has been. There's no taking away his accomplishments before 2000, the stuff that made him a name in the RPG community. But he hasn't done anything worthwhile since the turn of the century.
The only things I know him for since 2000 is:
1) Blowing a sh*tload of money to go into space.
2) Sheisting NCsoft out of alot of freaking money.
And that's it. He hasn't done anything of positive note since 2000. He hasn't done anything even remotely worthy of why people bowed in his name back when he was doing the Ultima games.
Seriously, when was the last time a product of Richard Garriott came out that had anything positive like when he was in his stride in the 80's and 90's?
Answer: Not since those days.
People naturally change over the years. But the man that used to go by the name "Lord British" that was widely revered in the RPG community has changed and is in all likeliness, never coming back.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I thought the title of this thread was "Game Designer Workshop". I am very disappointed.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Game designers are the ones who have the idea, create the mechanics, elements and all the content and try to balance it, sadly not all game designers seem to reach perfect understandment of their current version of the game therefore having no idea what a competitive player thinks, therefore failing hard at balance. Or they want to keep something just for profit reasons
The rest of the team is simply there to make that idea a reality, they simply take orders, dont really need to think a lot about the game
The only other time that someone else influences the gameplay is when a typical greedy big publisher fucks up gameplay to icrease the profits even more...
... that's a great idea for a thread, though...
The only misrepresented statement here is that game designers "have the idea". Only legendary ones that have been around since 2d gaming do that, because people will listen to them. Very few from the current generation of games have ever gotten that kind of clout.
The job of a game designer is a mix of understanding market trends, designing complementary mechanics, project management (what to keep, what to cut), communication between teams (liason work), knowing the in and outs of various said teams, and a crapload of math (and maybe meth, during crunchtime). They *do not* work on their own games unless they were born with a silver spoon in their mouth, or hold a huge amount of celebrity from previous works (and successes). They will spend 95-100% of their entire career working on someone else's goods.
The core skills of a game designer come from being in the industry a long-ass f**king time, nothing more. It's really not about coming up with a universe for an IP, nor is it contemplating story or art-styles... they hire writers and concept artists for that. Armchair designers can get their chops being creative, but it doesn't mean squat once you realise that the actual position is more-or-less based on *industry experience*.
@Meowhead
Do it...
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Okay, this has got me curious, but please tell me of a god game that came before Populous?
Whether the concept in life is original or not, its the application of it to computer games that is important, so please do tell me who made a god game before 1989's Populous so we can rewrite all the gaming history books
Yep. Sid Meier also created several other games that were successful in their own right. The other deev who stands out, for better or worse is Peter Molyneux. Regardless of the name his company goes by (Bullfrong, etc.) you can always tell when he had a hand in the game development.
Utopia. Made 8 years before Populous.
He also made Neverwinter Nights (the MMO).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia_%28video_game%29
Makes one wonder what it was like being in the business in the earlier years, especially in the 90s. PC gaming was very, very healthy and everything was so new. Hell, MMORPGs didn't pop up until the last 2 years.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
They have been around for maybe 15, or more (I'm not all too savvy on the historical factors here... I started in UO). MMO's have only become apparent to the greater population of gamers in the past 4 or so. Lots of people didn't even know they existed back when EQ1 took the world by storm, which makes me wonder if I can even say that it did. This, though, can probably be attributed to the rise of PC gaming in general. There's always been tons more console gamers.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
well i do agree that most game designer work like that, but innovative games dont come by just adding 1 inovative mechanic that was thought by just 1 of the small game designers... Some designers get their game idea reality by convincing greedy ppl to give them money for their profit... The main idea could be improved by some smaller game designer ideas but the vision of the game is the same and came from 1 designer...
Innovative design doesnt come from dumb greedy ppl(or it does sometimes when the developer is pathetic and just wants to create money by creating crap), it comes from the designers, and it might not always be very profitable but it could create a good game in comparison to the crap,psychology based money stealing games we have today.
Example=Ruse, very good innovative strategy game that went away from the stupid stereotypical design and created something good, even though the balance was raped by 0 support by greedy ppl
Somebody who is actually a game designer should start the topic, since I have no idea what I'd put in it.
I'm the very embodiment of an armchair designer, I've thrown out 3-4 game designs here on mmorpg.com in the last couple weeks, but I know I'm not going to MAKE those games. I can't program, my art skills are merely passable, and I write like a drunken fanfic writer trying to type out an instruction manual for a car I've never driven, using just my tongue and a keyboard missing half the keys.
My speciality is world design and coming up with ways to make game systems work within lore, but that's hardly a job title,or anything I could put on a resume to get me hired by anybody but the most desperate of indie developers who somehow mistakes the name 'Meowhead' for a respected figure in the industry.
Utopia isn't a god game, its just a normal strategy game, you play as the monarch/ruler, not a deity. I don't deny it is probably the first turn based strategy game, which is why you'll note no one gives that credit to Sid Meier, even though very few people remember games that predate Civilisation.
*Sigh*
There may be games that had some of the same mechanics of god games, but it was the impact of games like Populous and Populous 2 that actually initiated the term 'god game' to describe a genre.
Populous, Populous 2 and Dungeon Keeper I sitll consider the peak of that genre.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
- was pretty damn fun as well, and a contemporary of those other first god games (which I loved, incidentally)
Granted, it was more of an RTS, but I still remember counting it among the god games when I was that age.
http://machineborn.guildportal.com - Now recruiting players!
Don't care who invented the name of the word and I do not think it matters.
Point is that many designers don't mind taking credit for a whole genre when it's very likely that there are many people before them who created games with similar mechanics that no one knows about.
It proves the point of the OP, people are gullible and believe that a single person is responsible for a whole genre when it's far more likely that it's the work of a collective.
A lot of pioneering went on at all levels of production and development during those years. Although MMOs weren't really a blip on gaming radars until that last two years, 3DO had already started diving into the commercial market with M59 in the mid-90's. However, it seems the decisions made the developers of UO, EQ and AC seem to be the ones that really shaped the future of MMOs. For example, Richard Garriott introduced the Community Representative position which has become an entire department for almost every MMO today.
I thnk that with the tools and resources for creating a massively multiplayer online game being much more accessible now, we're entering into an era much like those years in the late 90's when we'll see some newpioneering efforts pop up. I'd say Minecraft (cue the purists: "HOW DARE YOU!") and Xsyon are two examples of some of the early steps into this new era.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There's no denying that single people can have a large impact and influence, even if what they've accomplished is done by a collective.
You only have to look at a Richard Garriott with the Ultima series, or look broader and see how single persons like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs had an impact even while their accomplishments were reached with a talented team.
In the case of Molyneux, while he was at the head Bullfrog did manage to create and establish a new genre with its own specific game mechanics while before there was nothing like that. The question of the OP is, should Molyneux and other game designers of successful games have gotten all the credit for it, just like a Steve Jobs (there's no denying in his successful influence)? I think not, it was him and the whole team of Bullfrog.
But, to compare with movies, you don't know whether it was a unique setup (script - producer - zeitgeist etc) that was the cause for their major success or that it was the special talent of a director: George Lucas may have been on the level of brilliance of a Joss Whedon or Christopher Nolan or Coen Brothers, but you wouldn't know until he made that second SW trilogy.
I'm still waiting for the next step in the line of what Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 offered: a conglomeration of completely player made (M)MORPG realms and worldservers, that can link up to eachother connecting tens to hundreds of different worlds. I hope something like that will be created or more accurately said, the powerful toolset that went with those games.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."