GW2 is the only thing remotely close to what DAOC was, ok I don t know for surem but basing it on what devs have reported. That said Rift will fail in an attempt to be anything like that. They ve copied alot from WOW already, i m sure you ll see a WG type thing in there as their answer for RVR. The feeling of taking on one side at a keep, not knowing if another realm is going to pop you from behind cannot happen with an npc faction, or 2 faction rvr. IMO leave it alone and let the pve people have their fun.
What's the point of Realm vs Realm when we already have open-end PvP on PvP servers already? Why can't player driven PvP work instead of some players wanting to be spoon fed PvP by the Devs? I don't understand why some people want thier hands held even in PvP. Open end PvP can be incredibly fun and dynamic. Make friends, form alliances and raid your enemy faction. There you have your RvR action without some silly code telling you exactly how to beat your enemy. Some don't want to be pigeon holed into thinking, "eh we have to capture this flag on sunday, and capture this fort on tuesday because we need to keep up on the Ranking Boards." Let the players dictate how we win or lose. Also I find little to no skill involved in mass scaled PvP. It just turns out to be a big mess. I don't mind it on occassion but when PvP is just big mass scale fights all the time like RvR turns out to be, then it gets old real fast. Also in order for the Devs do to RvR right, first they have to get permission from Mystic to use that model because it is copyrighted material. Aion came up with a decent concept like this with PvPvE and it sounded good on paper but it turned out to be a huge failure. Also a huge failure in Warhammer. I don't know why some people want to ruin an already polished and great game like Rift with something that only worked in the past with Dark Ages of Camelot. Even still, it was as niche game with people that LOVED RvR to death. They also have warfronts that they can grow on if people insist on "battleground" type PvP. But leave RvR out of Rift. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.
I tried posting some constructive criticism about DAoC and how Rift could improve upon it like WoW did with Wintergrasp, but a dozen DAoC fanboys keep posting flaming hatred towards me. Funny how DAoC supposedly has a good community, but their fanboys are just as illogical as any other.
And in my case, I am a DAoC fan as well, so you might consider them cannibalistic.
What's the point of Realm vs Realm when we already have open-end PvP on PvP servers already? Why can't player driven PvP work instead of some players wanting to be spoon fed PvP by the Devs? I don't understand why some people want thier hands held even in PvP. Open end PvP can be incredibly fun and dynamic. Make friends, form alliances and raid your enemy faction. There you have your RvR action without some silly code telling you exactly how to beat your enemy. Some don't want to be pigeon holed into thinking, "eh we have to capture this flag on sunday, and capture this fort on tuesday because we need to keep up on the Ranking Boards." Let the players dictate how we win or lose. Also I find little to no skill involved in mass scaled PvP. It just turns out to be a big mess. I don't mind it on occassion but when PvP is just big mass scale fights all the time like RvR turns out to be, then it gets old real fast. Also in order for the Devs do to RvR right, first they have to get permission from Mystic to use that model because it is copyrighted material. Aion came up with a decent concept like this with PvPvE and it sounded good on paper but it turned out to be a huge failure. Also a huge failure in Warhammer. I don't know why some people want to ruin an already polished and great game like Rift with something that only worked in the past with Dark Ages of Camelot. Even still, it was as niche game with people that LOVED RvR to death. They also have warfronts that they can grow on if people insist on "battleground" type PvP. But leave RvR out of Rift. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.
I tried posting some constructive criticism about DAoC and how Rift could improve upon it like WoW did with Wintergrasp, but a dozen DAoC fanboys keep posting flaming hatred towards me. Funny how DAoC supposedly has a good community, but their fanboys are just as illogical as any other.
And in my case, I am a DAoC fan as well, so you might consider them cannibalistic.
WoW didn't improve on DAoC... I'm sorry.
Lol, I just saw that. WOW improving on DAOC is quite funny to say the least.
I mean.. they COULD do it right if they took the page right out of the GW2 book - a separate RvR continent with multiple servers (say 3) battling it out. Or something like that. Or not. Since they already got those 2 factions already.... (/rolleyes)
In the latest potcast. The devs have mentioned that they wil concidering rvr to the game if people ask for it. This pretty much started a huge topic about this
Feel free to add your opinion on this! and let your voice be heard
RvR is not something you can tack onto a game. RvR is a primary game goal, where the lore and zones reflect the conflict between the different realms. The entire game swirls around the realm conflict. You need 2(3 prefable) fully fleshed out realms that can't interact with one another beyond fighting. You need keeps and persistant conquest in the frontier zones, and some kind of meta goal. You need siege weapons. It can't be instanced.
They're gonna just add all that at a whim?
I wouldn't say at a whim. There servers and game itself are already setup for this. Honestly, you don't need 3 realms. Two would be just fine as long as you have something to setup alliances with. Remember DaoC, the big thing wasn't the realms, but more so the allainces that made RvR good. It created a better grouping system and allowed small guilds to team up and overtake larger single guilds that zerged. They just need to make sure the RvR has a goal that is worth it. For DaoC it was Darkness Falls, a premier grind instance that was huge and allowed the realm who owned it and it's players beneficial gear and money to be made. I mean, I can't even remember how many jewlery boxes I made for people. I say go for it Trion.
A minor nitpick... Darkness Falls wasn't an instance. It was a massive open ended dungeon that anyone in your realm could enter. You also had relics to fight over. But what really did make DAoC work was the 3 realm system and how the game made your entire realm feel united in hatred against your enemy. Alliances were also key, yes, but 3 different exclusive realms was THE key.
Whats the difference between open world pvp and rvr?
Usually open world PvP is just that - PvP which is in open world. People killing each other in quest zones that are actually designed for PvE. You're doing your quest thing and now some dork is bothering you for no reason. That's your typical WoW PvP server.
RvR is open world PvP with purpose and meaning. Basically the zone(s) are open and persistent but they are made for PvP and there are PvP goals and quests and that whole strategic thing going on. And there are factions that you are automatically part of, as opposed to guild-based free-for-all which you normally see in open PvP factionless games (what they erroneously call "sandbox" these days). DAoC is an example of this.
If they make RvR atleast half good as it was in DAoC, Rift would be best mmorpg on market. Nobody did it right except of Mythic. Yes, many people (including me) QQed about class imbalances etc, but playing RvR in DAoC were my best times playing computer game ever and I already lost hope that anything will get close to it.
Nobody has done it right other than Mythic only because Mythic is the only dev company that realized you need to code RvR in from the START and not tack it on afterwards. It's already doomed to fail and the devs shouldn't bother.
Well if they can implement RvR why not have the rifts be the thrid element and be RvRvR( ift ) and now you can have the rifts kick out major mobs to really have a chaotic battle field both player factions finish the rift and the faction that is last man standing get the total loot rewards from the rift?
No thanks. 2 faction rvr sucks. Imbalance issues is all you need to know.
We all know this is true, it has been this way in every single game that has tried it, 2 Faction rvr does not work UNLESS you limit the number of players to stop population imbalance ruling the roost.....and that is instancing, pure and simple and so it's NOT open world pvp....so not rvr.
3 Faction is the way to go, always has been, always will be. Let the players balance the books.
Planetside got it right. Shame the game was years ahead of it's time and fps gamers back then laughed at paying a sub (and rightly so).
DAoC got it right, but then lost it, arguably regained it, but then eventually lost the war of attrition.
Warhammer was originally supposed to be multi-faction, but that never panned out. 2 Faction was utter fail.
There are other examples, but these are the better ones.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
There are plenty of games with 2 faction RvR out there, and generally speaking - most people consider it fail.
If folks want a DAoC 2.0, then they need to request that from a game company - not screw up other games by trying to force them to implement something that will not pan out to be what they want...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
There are plenty of games with 2 faction RvR out there, and generally speaking - most people consider it fail.
If folks want a DAoC 2.0, then they need to request that from a game company - not screw up other games by trying to force them to implement something that will not pan out to be what they want...
Yeah, let the sleeping dog lie I say...
Imo Rift could do a lot to improve its PvP - they could do wonders with the instanced stuff they got and all. Why not?
But imo it's a bit too late to start thinking about RvR at this point. The game's basics have been set in stone already and they are not conductive to making a good RvR game. They could tack-on "something" but why bother.. 2-faction RvR = fail as proven many many times in the past. The concensus is that all the 3-faction RvR games had great RvR and all 2-faction games had horrible RvR. There is no exception to this rule. None. That ends any argument right there. Let Trion spend their resources on other stuff that won't be hindered by what's already here. As I said, they could yet revolutionize instanced PvP with something new no one can yet foresee.. Who knows?
A minor nitpick... Darkness Falls wasn't an instance. It was a massive open ended dungeon that anyone in your realm could enter. You also had relics to fight over. But what really did make DAoC work was the 3 realm system and how the game made your entire realm feel united in hatred against your enemy. Alliances were also key, yes, but 3 different exclusive realms was THE key.
Darkness Falls was an instance on your homeland, meaning you had to zone in. In Frontier you could enter from the backside. And yes it was open-ended, almost every dungeon in DaoC was open ended allowing multiple groups and people in. Something that I trully miss in dungeons now-a-days. And three realms were key on certain servers. Some servers only had 2 realms to work with, as the third was severly out numbered. People just like to act like that didn't happen because they went to servers without these issues. ToA really ruined this on certain servers with this issue. DaoC had it's issues, some of those the same as two faction games have now. Character imbalances also still plague the game, always will. A two faction RvR system can work, a 3 can work, so can a four five and six. It really doesn't matter how many realms or factions you work with, it's the system behind it that has to work. I was a strong DaoC player for about 3 years, 50 Druid and Animist on Lancelot. I enjoyed every bit of my time playing DaoC, but I'm not going to sit here and be blind to the truth just because I liked it's RvR. It has and will have issues, so will a 2 faction/realm system. But they both can work.
A minor nitpick... Darkness Falls wasn't an instance. It was a massive open ended dungeon that anyone in your realm could enter. You also had relics to fight over. But what really did make DAoC work was the 3 realm system and how the game made your entire realm feel united in hatred against your enemy. Alliances were also key, yes, but 3 different exclusive realms was THE key.
Darkness Falls was an instance on your homeland, meaning you had to zone in.
Having to zone in does not make it an instances.
Instances are called instances because there are multiple instances of the same thing:
So it's kind of like lotro's pvmp where if you own two or so keeps an instance opens up and if you have both of the "relics" you get an XP/infamy boost?
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by neobamboom
Whats the difference between open world pvp and rvr?
Usually open world PvP is just that - PvP which is in open world. People killing each other in quest zones that are actually designed for PvE. You're doing your quest thing and now some dork is bothering you for no reason. That's your typical WoW PvP server.
RvR is open world PvP with purpose and meaning. Basically the zone(s) are open and persistent but they are made for PvP and there are PvP goals and quests and that whole strategic thing going on. And there are factions that you are automatically part of, as opposed to guild-based free-for-all which you normally see in open PvP factionless games (what they erroneously call "sandbox" these days). DAoC is an example of this.
So it's kind of like lotro's pvmp where if you own two or so keeps an instance opens up and if you have both of the "relics" you get an XP/infamy boost?
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by neobamboom
Whats the difference between open world pvp and rvr?
Usually open world PvP is just that - PvP which is in open world. People killing each other in quest zones that are actually designed for PvE. You're doing your quest thing and now some dork is bothering you for no reason. That's your typical WoW PvP server.
RvR is open world PvP with purpose and meaning. Basically the zone(s) are open and persistent but they are made for PvP and there are PvP goals and quests and that whole strategic thing going on. And there are factions that you are automatically part of, as opposed to guild-based free-for-all which you normally see in open PvP factionless games (what they erroneously call "sandbox" these days). DAoC is an example of this.
Didn't play LOTRO so I couldn't say... The point is that in RvR you have a meaning to PvP that is in-built into the game structure. It means that the game area is not made for PvE but with PvP in mind. It means that the reason you play the game at all is to fight against the other player-driven faction. In a PvE game you usually fight some mob force - like a dragon invasion or something. In RvR you fight the other guys.
Mind you, it doesn't mean that you have to PvP all the time in a RvR game. For exmple, you could (theoretically) have a RvR game with no PvP at all - just put in several factions and make them race doing PvE tasks - whoever kills more dragons wins. Or even better, whenever you kill a mob he appears on the other factions territory doing mayhem and all. Remember opening of the gates thing that was in vanilla WoW? (forgot what it was called, something in that Tanaris desert).
RvR is more of a basic premise of the game than anything else, but it usually means open persistent world that is designed for PvP. You can have some mighty interesting PvE in this world as well but the main drive is on different "realms" (factions or servers (like in GW2)) competing. Imagine that the whole world is one giant battleground instance that never ends and there are PvE quests strewn about that can influence the outcome... and this is where this whole 3-faction brouhaha comes in. 2 factions is great in a limited-time environment (like an instanced battleground) where one side gets the upper hand and the other one eventually gives up so they can have another match starting from zero. While great for time-limited PvP this concept is killer in a PERSISTENT game, an "instance" that never ends because when the other side finally gives up it doesn't say "lets have another match" - no they say "there's no point here, we're unsubbing". That's why you need more factions in RvR game model - when one faction gets too weak others find it uninteresting and leave it alone giving it enough time to recuperate and scheme a comeback.
A minor nitpick... Darkness Falls wasn't an instance. It was a massive open ended dungeon that anyone in your realm could enter. You also had relics to fight over. But what really did make DAoC work was the 3 realm system and how the game made your entire realm feel united in hatred against your enemy. Alliances were also key, yes, but 3 different exclusive realms was THE key.
Darkness Falls was an instance on your homeland, meaning you had to zone in.
Again, a nitpick, but still- it's not an instance. If other players can enter it, it's not an instance, it's a zone. An instance means multiple copies of one zone.
a rvr zone in this game would really make me want to buy a lifetime sub the next day.
pvp servers just don't appeal to me (nothing wrong with them or the players, just I don't enjoy being a grp looking for pvp and then killing people questing/grinding or about to do a rift raid) so a pve server with a rvr zone would almost feel like daoc and should work pretty well too if it is just the 1 big zone.
Definatly all for it, and looking through alot of the 310+ pages so far the vast majority are too thank goodness
Comments
GW2 is the only thing remotely close to what DAOC was, ok I don t know for surem but basing it on what devs have reported. That said Rift will fail in an attempt to be anything like that. They ve copied alot from WOW already, i m sure you ll see a WG type thing in there as their answer for RVR. The feeling of taking on one side at a keep, not knowing if another realm is going to pop you from behind cannot happen with an npc faction, or 2 faction rvr. IMO leave it alone and let the pve people have their fun.
WoW didn't improve on DAoC... I'm sorry.
Whats the difference between open world pvp and rvr?
Lol, I just saw that. WOW improving on DAOC is quite funny to say the least.
I mean.. they COULD do it right if they took the page right out of the GW2 book - a separate RvR continent with multiple servers (say 3) battling it out. Or something like that. Or not. Since they already got those 2 factions already.... (/rolleyes)
2-faction RvR is.... no. Just no.
A minor nitpick... Darkness Falls wasn't an instance. It was a massive open ended dungeon that anyone in your realm could enter. You also had relics to fight over. But what really did make DAoC work was the 3 realm system and how the game made your entire realm feel united in hatred against your enemy. Alliances were also key, yes, but 3 different exclusive realms was THE key.
Usually open world PvP is just that - PvP which is in open world. People killing each other in quest zones that are actually designed for PvE. You're doing your quest thing and now some dork is bothering you for no reason. That's your typical WoW PvP server.
RvR is open world PvP with purpose and meaning. Basically the zone(s) are open and persistent but they are made for PvP and there are PvP goals and quests and that whole strategic thing going on. And there are factions that you are automatically part of, as opposed to guild-based free-for-all which you normally see in open PvP factionless games (what they erroneously call "sandbox" these days). DAoC is an example of this.
Nobody has done it right other than Mythic only because Mythic is the only dev company that realized you need to code RvR in from the START and not tack it on afterwards. It's already doomed to fail and the devs shouldn't bother.
Well if they can implement RvR why not have the rifts be the thrid element and be RvRvR( ift ) and now you can have the rifts kick out major mobs to really have a chaotic battle field both player factions finish the rift and the faction that is last man standing get the total loot rewards from the rift?
We all know this is true, it has been this way in every single game that has tried it, 2 Faction rvr does not work UNLESS you limit the number of players to stop population imbalance ruling the roost.....and that is instancing, pure and simple and so it's NOT open world pvp....so not rvr.
3 Faction is the way to go, always has been, always will be. Let the players balance the books.
Planetside got it right. Shame the game was years ahead of it's time and fps gamers back then laughed at paying a sub (and rightly so).
DAoC got it right, but then lost it, arguably regained it, but then eventually lost the war of attrition.
Warhammer was originally supposed to be multi-faction, but that never panned out. 2 Faction was utter fail.
There are other examples, but these are the better ones.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
There are plenty of games with 2 faction RvR out there, and generally speaking - most people consider it fail.
If folks want a DAoC 2.0, then they need to request that from a game company - not screw up other games by trying to force them to implement something that will not pan out to be what they want...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Yeah, let the sleeping dog lie I say...
Imo Rift could do a lot to improve its PvP - they could do wonders with the instanced stuff they got and all. Why not?
But imo it's a bit too late to start thinking about RvR at this point. The game's basics have been set in stone already and they are not conductive to making a good RvR game. They could tack-on "something" but why bother.. 2-faction RvR = fail as proven many many times in the past. The concensus is that all the 3-faction RvR games had great RvR and all 2-faction games had horrible RvR. There is no exception to this rule. None. That ends any argument right there. Let Trion spend their resources on other stuff that won't be hindered by what's already here. As I said, they could yet revolutionize instanced PvP with something new no one can yet foresee.. Who knows?
Darkness Falls was an instance on your homeland, meaning you had to zone in. In Frontier you could enter from the backside. And yes it was open-ended, almost every dungeon in DaoC was open ended allowing multiple groups and people in. Something that I trully miss in dungeons now-a-days. And three realms were key on certain servers. Some servers only had 2 realms to work with, as the third was severly out numbered. People just like to act like that didn't happen because they went to servers without these issues. ToA really ruined this on certain servers with this issue. DaoC had it's issues, some of those the same as two faction games have now. Character imbalances also still plague the game, always will. A two faction RvR system can work, a 3 can work, so can a four five and six. It really doesn't matter how many realms or factions you work with, it's the system behind it that has to work. I was a strong DaoC player for about 3 years, 50 Druid and Animist on Lancelot. I enjoyed every bit of my time playing DaoC, but I'm not going to sit here and be blind to the truth just because I liked it's RvR. It has and will have issues, so will a 2 faction/realm system. But they both can work.
Having to zone in does not make it an instances.
Instances are called instances because there are multiple instances of the same thing:
in·stance
–noun
1.
a case or occurrence of anything: fresh instances of oppression.
2.
an example put forth in proof or illustration: to cite a few instances.
3.
Law. the institution and prosecution of a case.
4.
Archaic. urgency in speech or action.
5.
Obsolete. an impelling motive.
There are multiple instances of every dungeon in WoW, but only 1 of each (per server) in DAoC. Darkness Falls was not an instance.
Didn't play LOTRO so I couldn't say... The point is that in RvR you have a meaning to PvP that is in-built into the game structure. It means that the game area is not made for PvE but with PvP in mind. It means that the reason you play the game at all is to fight against the other player-driven faction. In a PvE game you usually fight some mob force - like a dragon invasion or something. In RvR you fight the other guys.
Mind you, it doesn't mean that you have to PvP all the time in a RvR game. For exmple, you could (theoretically) have a RvR game with no PvP at all - just put in several factions and make them race doing PvE tasks - whoever kills more dragons wins. Or even better, whenever you kill a mob he appears on the other factions territory doing mayhem and all. Remember opening of the gates thing that was in vanilla WoW? (forgot what it was called, something in that Tanaris desert).
RvR is more of a basic premise of the game than anything else, but it usually means open persistent world that is designed for PvP. You can have some mighty interesting PvE in this world as well but the main drive is on different "realms" (factions or servers (like in GW2)) competing. Imagine that the whole world is one giant battleground instance that never ends and there are PvE quests strewn about that can influence the outcome... and this is where this whole 3-faction brouhaha comes in. 2 factions is great in a limited-time environment (like an instanced battleground) where one side gets the upper hand and the other one eventually gives up so they can have another match starting from zero. While great for time-limited PvP this concept is killer in a PERSISTENT game, an "instance" that never ends because when the other side finally gives up it doesn't say "lets have another match" - no they say "there's no point here, we're unsubbing". That's why you need more factions in RvR game model - when one faction gets too weak others find it uninteresting and leave it alone giving it enough time to recuperate and scheme a comeback.
Again, a nitpick, but still- it's not an instance. If other players can enter it, it's not an instance, it's a zone. An instance means multiple copies of one zone.
a rvr zone in this game would really make me want to buy a lifetime sub the next day.
pvp servers just don't appeal to me (nothing wrong with them or the players, just I don't enjoy being a grp looking for pvp and then killing people questing/grinding or about to do a rift raid) so a pve server with a rvr zone would almost feel like daoc and should work pretty well too if it is just the 1 big zone.
Definatly all for it, and looking through alot of the 310+ pages so far the vast majority are too thank goodness
I guess we're going to see how they'll plan to implement Port Scion.