As much as DCU bored me to tears. It really felt like a city to be immersed in. Probably one of the only highlights for me. t was fun going to the places from the comics.
i miss my player made city in SWG.... Back when it was actually filled with players hanging out at the cantinas and what not before the dreaded SOE sledgehammer fell.
Or, they have to use instancing very heavily to keep the number of players down which IMO kills the very soul of a MMO.
The alternative would be to design your engine to have simplified interaction - have a basic simulation of the city we at a simplified simcity level that minimizes the background details that need to be computed and communicated to the clients. Let the other players be just background until you interact with them (even if it means keeping people in bland travelling cloaks while on the street or not fully rendering every exotic pet). When you do have bubbles of local activity, farm the details off to their own subserver for more detailed simulation. As the subserver nears capacity, using increasingly dense crowds of NPC "onlookers" or clouds of debris as a barrier to slow or stop additional players crowding into the bubble, letting the city continue to feel seemless.
(I'm not saying its easy, but I think it's still possible)
Ah yes, AoC's Tarantia is a very good example too. Very lively and genuine feeling city with the Commons areas included.
AOC's Tarantia and UO's Trinsic both very like active cities to me, however that was greatly due to the amount of player traffic through them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In addition to size what makes Assassins Creeds cities nice is the activity within that city. Lots of walking people, people doing things, just overall activity. It really made it seem alive. MMO cities tend to feel dead.
Two mmo towns/cities that I liked, however, were Bree Town in LotRO and Tarantia in AoC. But for the most part towns in mmos could hardly be called that, they could barely be a farming community.
The problem is that they are online, and have hundreds if not thousands of players.
The bigger and more expansive/graphically impressive the city, the more resources it takes on your PC/console as well as on the server end.
MMORPG's have to balance this out with the demands on the network and servers/pcs/consoles of users.
One day, when everyone has fiber going to their home and we're all playing on pcs/consoles that would be super-computers by todays commercial standards, we will see cities in MMOs that look like this.
That's not really the problem at all. Technically, doing a large city is very possible. Gameplay-wise, it's often not desireable. That's the issue.
If a developer just copy/pastes a bunch of useless buildings outside the core of functional ones, players will quickly realize that the developer is deliberately wasting their time with travel.
As cool as it was to explore WAR's two capitals the first few times I visited them, they were needless timesinks afterwards that I could've done without. And those capitals weren't quite Assassin's Creed-sized, if I guess correctly.
Granted, if we're talking about stuffing cities so they're chock-full of interesting content that players want to do and repeat, then that's a different matter entirely.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't see the point here. saying that cities are just heaps of useless buildings is the same, as saying forests are just heaps of useless trees and mountains areas heaps of useless rocks.
actually it is a simple design decision. do the developers want a game where one or a few major cities are fullblown zones for adventuring or only as hubs for market, quests etc?
Tarantia in AoC is quite a good example. you have the usual market, bank and quest stuff and it feels mildly alive (e.g. kids running around) plus there are some midlevel quest zones wich are like slums and zones of rioting.
and the travel argument is utterly invalid. if you have a game with at least __somewhat__ realistic distances, it would be much faster to go to a quest zone (like a slum) within the city than to travel from there to some village and then go into a forest to slay some monster squirrels. even more the city could be a threedimensional zone with multiple layers (e.g. noble district with towers and bridges, upper town on the hill, lower town, sewers, underground slums) whereas the usual questing zone is just a more or less plain landscape maybe somewhat broken and sloped.
so navigation in the city will be definately more difficult, but there can be gamemechanical aids to help with that. also a city will embody another - and a more unusual - kind of theater. instead of going to some wildlands and fighting mythical monsters and barbarians a sprawling city offers conflict between factions of humans (or humanoids), law vs. crime, rich vs. poor, syndicate a vs. syndicate b, intrigues, shadow wars.
there are people out there, that like that kind of stuff.
further for the alive argument. actually it's the same for wilderness zones. in today's games these don't feel that much alive as well, only that you don't expect that, maybe because most of us have grown up in cities.
wilderness: heaps of mobs standing around or following nonsensical patrol routes, waiting to be slaughtered, here and there a squirrel or a toad is hopping by (wow) for the flair
city: heaps of npcs standing around, waiting for players to take quests or trade or bank
different place, same sh*tty unimmersive world design
now creating a more alive world with different times of activity (day/night) is another design decision devs have to make, and it has consequences. if a player arrives at night and wants to sell his junk loot, his vendor might not be there because he is in the pub, or in the whorehouse or at home. or you want to have some action but since it is daytime all criminals are hiding, guards are patrolling and there is noone to beat up.
not all players will like this. even i am not absolutely (but quite) sure, if there wouldn't be times where i would hate that. but i am sure that these problems can be mitigated, e.g. in the night you have a fence instead of an official vendor, maybe with worse prices, and at day you only have fighting going on in some parts of the sewers while at night all slums are zones of conflict. and of course you can not do this with a day cycle which is the same as realtime (as in wow), people that could only play in the evening would be forced to go for a nightstalker career :-D
another option would be to split the whole thing into a day and a night zone, like it happend for the noob island of AoC. this approach also has it's merits but it is a tough design decision.
The problem is that they are online, and have hundreds if not thousands of players.
The bigger and more expansive/graphically impressive the city, the more resources it takes on your PC/console as well as on the server end.
MMORPG's have to balance this out with the demands on the network and servers/pcs/consoles of users.
One day, when everyone has fiber going to their home and we're all playing on pcs/consoles that would be super-computers by todays commercial standards, we will see cities in MMOs that look like this.
That's not really the problem at all. Technically, doing a large city is very possible. Gameplay-wise, it's often not desireable. That's the issue.
If a developer just copy/pastes a bunch of useless buildings outside the core of functional ones, players will quickly realize that the developer is deliberately wasting their time with travel.
As cool as it was to explore WAR's two capitals the first few times I visited them, they were needless timesinks afterwards that I could've done without. And those capitals weren't quite Assassin's Creed-sized, if I guess correctly.
Granted, if we're talking about stuffing cities so they're chock-full of interesting content that players want to do and repeat, then that's a different matter entirely.
That's still atrocious unless they plan to place the needed NPCs in apile near the city entrance. Otherwise you end up with big sprawling 'immersive' messes like the capital cities in PotBS.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The problem is that they are online, and have hundreds if not thousands of players.
The bigger and more expansive/graphically impressive the city, the more resources it takes on your PC/console as well as on the server end.
MMORPG's have to balance this out with the demands on the network and servers/pcs/consoles of users.
One day, when everyone has fiber going to their home and we're all playing on pcs/consoles that would be super-computers by todays commercial standards, we will see cities in MMOs that look like this.
That's not really the problem at all. Technically, doing a large city is very possible. Gameplay-wise, it's often not desireable. That's the issue.
If a developer just copy/pastes a bunch of useless buildings outside the core of functional ones, players will quickly realize that the developer is deliberately wasting their time with travel.
As cool as it was to explore WAR's two capitals the first few times I visited them, they were needless timesinks afterwards that I could've done without. And those capitals weren't quite Assassin's Creed-sized, if I guess correctly.
Granted, if we're talking about stuffing cities so they're chock-full of interesting content that players want to do and repeat, then that's a different matter entirely.
That's still atrocious unless they plan to place the needed NPCs in apile near the city entrance. Otherwise you end up with big sprawling 'immersive' messes like the capital cities in PotBS.
Also, I know some people find being lost "immersive" but I do not.
Wandering aimlessly for a long time because I cannot find where I want to go is not fun for me.
I have a bad sense of direction in real life, and I may take an extended break from playing a game.
I will not remember I have to go left, left, right, left, right, right, left, and left again...
The problem is that they are online, and have hundreds if not thousands of players.
The bigger and more expansive/graphically impressive the city, the more resources it takes on your PC/console as well as on the server end.
MMORPG's have to balance this out with the demands on the network and servers/pcs/consoles of users.
One day, when everyone has fiber going to their home and we're all playing on pcs/consoles that would be super-computers by todays commercial standards, we will see cities in MMOs that look like this.
That's not really the problem at all. Technically, doing a large city is very possible. Gameplay-wise, it's often not desireable. That's the issue.
If a developer just copy/pastes a bunch of useless buildings outside the core of functional ones, players will quickly realize that the developer is deliberately wasting their time with travel.
As cool as it was to explore WAR's two capitals the first few times I visited them, they were needless timesinks afterwards that I could've done without. And those capitals weren't quite Assassin's Creed-sized, if I guess correctly.
Granted, if we're talking about stuffing cities so they're chock-full of interesting content that players want to do and repeat, then that's a different matter entirely.
That's still atrocious unless they plan to place the needed NPCs in apile near the city entrance. Otherwise you end up with big sprawling 'immersive' messes like the capital cities in PotBS.
Also, I know some people find being lost "immersive" but I do not.
Wandering aimlessly for a long time because I cannot find where I want to go is not fun for me.
I have a bad sense of direction in real life, and I may take an extended break from playing a game.
I will not remember I have to go left, left, right, left, right, right, left, and left again...
Was that travel directions or did I just get hit with some secret forum combo roundhouse power move?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
One of the biggest cities i ever been in in a game was Anhk-Morpork in the Discworld MUD. It is truly massive. Now if they could make a city like that in a 3d MMO that would be awesome.
Problem with most MMO's like has been observed in this thread is that it is just a place to bank your junk and grab a quest before you head out again. They need to make cities alive and vibrant, and unsafe. Every city in an MMO should be invaded and sacked occasionally. Dragons should swoop down and flame strafe a few buildings and streets. Uprisings from the slums. Wizard magic running amok and leaving parts of cities death traps. I think there are plenty of options for cities to be made as part of the game, rather than a bland setting people log off in.
I just think devs have no imagination when it comes to city life. I think Guildwars 2 is coming close to trying to make cities an interesting place to be, we need to see more of that.
MMO cities are designed with a few goals in mind. One of them is to create that sense of, well, massiveness. Another very important goal, however, is to include all the important functional MMO hotspots and make them all conveniently accessible to players. By hotspots I mean class trainers, profession trainers, stables, auction house(s), bank(s), inns, etc.
Ease of accessibility to all of these hotspots would be severely compromised in a city like Damascus in Assassin's Creed. Many players have already been complaining of travel time from one hotspot to another in MMO cities. If Damascus were an MMO city, you would need to either make 90% of the buildings empty and/or make theirs interior inaccessible (like they are in AC), or you would need to add 30+ auction houses, banks, class and profession trainers/workers, and inns so you literally run into these hotspots all over the place. Neither are very compelling options imo.
I too loved the layout of the cities in AC. They worked for the game. Most of the buildings were nothing but climbing objects. The environment was a playground of props to be used as part of the game's action-oriented quest objectives. That's just not the case in MMO gameplay, however. Having 90% of MMO buildings be nothing more than empty props would create a dull, empty--albeit appropriately massive--atmosphere. Not to mention player after player would become increasingly frustrated every time they entered a new city and just wanted to find their class trainer.
Maybe MMO which mainly happened inside a city, with political and other aspects considered.
Issue is the scale, normaly what we see is something where there lives only 100-1000 people (or there is no room to live in at all), and we see only part of them. In reality the scale is quite different 1000 is nothing 10k is decent, but the capitols should span in 100k or 1M range. And those shouldn't be small, instead it's quite large. Just consider Rome, in history...
MMO cities are designed with a few goals in mind. One of them is to create that sense of, well, massiveness. Another very important goal, however, is to include all the important functional MMO hotspots and make them all conveniently accessible to players. By hotspots I mean class trainers, profession trainers, stables, auction house(s), bank(s), inns, etc.
Ease of accessibility to all of these hotspots would be severely compromised in a city like Damascus in Assassin's Creed. Many players have already been complaining of travel time from one hotspot to another in MMO cities. If Damascus were an MMO city, you would need to either make 90% of the buildings empty and/or make theirs interior inaccessible (like they are in AC), or you would need to add 30+ auction houses, banks, class and profession trainers/workers, and inns so you literally run into these hotspots all over the place. Neither are very compelling options imo.
I too loved the layout of the cities in AC. They worked for the game. Most of the buildings were nothing but climbing objects. The environment was a playground of props to be used as part of the game's action-oriented quest objectives. That's just not the case in MMO gameplay, however. Having 90% of MMO buildings be nothing more than empty props would create a dull, empty--albeit appropriately massive--atmosphere. Not to mention player after player would become increasingly frustrated every time they entered a new city and just wanted to find their class trainer.
That's all very true.
The problem is that an mmo city just doesn't operate like a "real life" city. It only has a few things that it needs to do and those things, though they can be duplicated might seem silly if they were duplicated over a large area.
I remember finally getting to Baldur's Gate in "Baldur's Gate". I kept going into every door that I could find but realized after a while that it was all the same thing for the most part.
If an mmo were to have one type of armor one place, another in another place, trainers spread out all over the place, etc, then players would just complain.
Assuming there were trainers.
I alwasy thought that if an mmo had a robust crafting system where players had some control over what they create, that store space could be given to players (in a "massive" city).
But then we would just get the screaming about how an Auction House is better.
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I think devs are missing out on versatility of content by not having large cities (and the crime rates that accompany them) that not only act as a quest hub but the location of the quest. Maybe some players want to do something besides the normal ecocide quests. Fight against the organised crime or work for them etc. When you get tired of that for the day got on some epic monster slaying quest.
I find large cities annoying, where you have to run for a few minutes before reaching the next npc to talk to. Maybe because they don't really feel like a city. They're huge, but players mostly gather at a certain spot, near the teleporter or a bank.
I'd want to see a city that really does feel like a city in an mmorpg though. A city doesn't have to be one map, so if a city is divided into districts, that would be great. A town square, district 1 has monsters, etc. A little like Neverwinter Nights, if anyone here has ever played that.
MMO cities are designed with a few goals in mind. One of them is to create that sense of, well, massiveness. Another very important goal, however, is to include all the important functional MMO hotspots and make them all conveniently accessible to players. By hotspots I mean class trainers, profession trainers, stables, auction house(s), bank(s), inns, etc.
Ease of accessibility to all of these hotspots would be severely compromised in a city like Damascus in Assassin's Creed. Many players have already been complaining of travel time from one hotspot to another in MMO cities. If Damascus were an MMO city, you would need to either make 90% of the buildings empty and/or make theirs interior inaccessible (like they are in AC), or you would need to add 30+ auction houses, banks, class and profession trainers/workers, and inns so you literally run into these hotspots all over the place. Neither are very compelling options imo.
I too loved the layout of the cities in AC. They worked for the game. Most of the buildings were nothing but climbing objects. The environment was a playground of props to be used as part of the game's action-oriented quest objectives. That's just not the case in MMO gameplay, however. Having 90% of MMO buildings be nothing more than empty props would create a dull, empty--albeit appropriately massive--atmosphere. Not to mention player after player would become increasingly frustrated every time they entered a new city and just wanted to find their class trainer.
That's all very true.
The problem is that an mmo city just doesn't operate like a "real life" city. It only has a few things that it needs to do and those things, though they can be duplicated might seem silly if they were duplicated over a large area.
I remember finally getting to Baldur's Gate in "Baldur's Gate". I kept going into every door that I could find but realized after a while that it was all the same thing for the most part.
If an mmo were to have one type of armor one place, another in another place, trainers spread out all over the place, etc, then players would just complain.
Assuming there were trainers.
I alwasy thought that if an mmo had a robust crafting system where players had some control over what they create, that store space could be given to players (in a "massive" city).
But then we would just get the screaming about how an Auction House is better.
You mentioned earlier about cities in L2 and I agree the cities are stunning and do feel like cities, I do think they missed an opportunity to populate properly, even with the introduction of clan halls I dont think it was enough, there is still so much unused space, they missed out on adding height and floors to the already amazing house models as well as allow players to purchase or rent these places for vendors etc...
The cathedrals on the main cities for instance, I felt were under used, they could have different levels and much more detail inside, this ofc would mean add more functionality not just empty rooms or NPCs doing the same.
Hmm that makes me think of an old dungeons and dragon's scenario book about some massive medieval city in ruins, that was basically the whole play area, full of nasties and whatever.
Something like that might translate fairly well to an mmo format, perhaps.. would be easier to make a city in ruins feel 'alive' I'd imagine.
Oh yea, and AOC has a pretty large multi-zone city with some combat districts, doesn't it?
I think you hit a home run here. I understand what you are saying and I like the idea. I actually havent ever considered it.
Could add sewers for mob hunting, maybe undead slums at night, tons of shops for crafting needs, various quests. Yup. I get it and like I say I like the idea.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
MMO cities are designed with a few goals in mind. One of them is to create that sense of, well, massiveness. Another very important goal, however, is to include all the important functional MMO hotspots and make them all conveniently accessible to players. By hotspots I mean class trainers, profession trainers, stables, auction house(s), bank(s), inns, etc.
Ease of accessibility to all of these hotspots would be severely compromised in a city like Damascus in Assassin's Creed. Many players have already been complaining of travel time from one hotspot to another in MMO cities. If Damascus were an MMO city, you would need to either make 90% of the buildings empty and/or make theirs interior inaccessible (like they are in AC), or you would need to add 30+ auction houses, banks, class and profession trainers/workers, and inns so you literally run into these hotspots all over the place. Neither are very compelling options imo.
I too loved the layout of the cities in AC. They worked for the game. Most of the buildings were nothing but climbing objects. The environment was a playground of props to be used as part of the game's action-oriented quest objectives. That's just not the case in MMO gameplay, however. Having 90% of MMO buildings be nothing more than empty props would create a dull, empty--albeit appropriately massive--atmosphere. Not to mention player after player would become increasingly frustrated every time they entered a new city and just wanted to find their class trainer.
That's all very true.
The problem is that an mmo city just doesn't operate like a "real life" city. It only has a few things that it needs to do and those things, though they can be duplicated might seem silly if they were duplicated over a large area.
I remember finally getting to Baldur's Gate in "Baldur's Gate". I kept going into every door that I could find but realized after a while that it was all the same thing for the most part.
If an mmo were to have one type of armor one place, another in another place, trainers spread out all over the place, etc, then players would just complain.
Assuming there were trainers.
I alwasy thought that if an mmo had a robust crafting system where players had some control over what they create, that store space could be given to players (in a "massive" city).
But then we would just get the screaming about how an Auction House is better.
You mentioned earlier about cities in L2 and I agree the cities are stunning and do feel like cities, I do think they missed an opportunity to populate properly, even with the introduction of clan halls I dont think it was enough, there is still so much unused space, they missed out on adding height and floors to the already amazing house models as well as allow players to purchase or rent these places for vendors etc...
The cathedrals on the main cities for instance, I felt were under used, they could have different levels and much more detail inside, this ofc would mean add more functionality not just empty rooms or NPCs doing the same.
When I first joined Lineage 2 I was surprised to see that a good many buildings were essentially props.
There was a time we were running to that city on the coast, west of gludio (that for the life of me I can't remember) and we passed a cabin with an npc. So my clanmate ran up to the npc but it was nothing. Then there is a windmill that is high on a hill as you go through a small ravine into "The wastes". I spent a small amount of time trying to figure out how one got up to it only to realize there wasn't any way to get to it.
Shame that.
However, what made Lineage 2's cities "Cities" was that a lot went on in them.
There were trainers, specialty stores like "The Luxury Shop" (in Giran) Clan halls (could be more I agree) Blacksmiths for upgrading weapons, the bank, people hawking their wares or people shouting they could craft x and y.
Giran was great!
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Comments
As much as DCU bored me to tears. It really felt like a city to be immersed in. Probably one of the only highlights for me. t was fun going to the places from the comics.
i miss my player made city in SWG.... Back when it was actually filled with players hanging out at the cantinas and what not before the dreaded SOE sledgehammer fell.
The alternative would be to design your engine to have simplified interaction - have a basic simulation of the city we at a simplified simcity level that minimizes the background details that need to be computed and communicated to the clients. Let the other players be just background until you interact with them (even if it means keeping people in bland travelling cloaks while on the street or not fully rendering every exotic pet). When you do have bubbles of local activity, farm the details off to their own subserver for more detailed simulation. As the subserver nears capacity, using increasingly dense crowds of NPC "onlookers" or clouds of debris as a barrier to slow or stop additional players crowding into the bubble, letting the city continue to feel seemless.
(I'm not saying its easy, but I think it's still possible)
AOC's Tarantia and UO's Trinsic both very like active cities to me, however that was greatly due to the amount of player traffic through them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Oh also matrix online had a pretty big city.
In addition to size what makes Assassins Creeds cities nice is the activity within that city. Lots of walking people, people doing things, just overall activity. It really made it seem alive. MMO cities tend to feel dead.
Two mmo towns/cities that I liked, however, were Bree Town in LotRO and Tarantia in AoC. But for the most part towns in mmos could hardly be called that, they could barely be a farming community.
This thread reminds me that Ravnica would make such an unbelievably fantastic setting for an MMO. Now I'm sad.
That's not really the problem at all. Technically, doing a large city is very possible. Gameplay-wise, it's often not desireable. That's the issue.
If a developer just copy/pastes a bunch of useless buildings outside the core of functional ones, players will quickly realize that the developer is deliberately wasting their time with travel.
As cool as it was to explore WAR's two capitals the first few times I visited them, they were needless timesinks afterwards that I could've done without. And those capitals weren't quite Assassin's Creed-sized, if I guess correctly.
Granted, if we're talking about stuffing cities so they're chock-full of interesting content that players want to do and repeat, then that's a different matter entirely.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't see the point here. saying that cities are just heaps of useless buildings is the same, as saying forests are just heaps of useless trees and mountains areas heaps of useless rocks.
actually it is a simple design decision. do the developers want a game where one or a few major cities are fullblown zones for adventuring or only as hubs for market, quests etc?
Tarantia in AoC is quite a good example. you have the usual market, bank and quest stuff and it feels mildly alive (e.g. kids running around) plus there are some midlevel quest zones wich are like slums and zones of rioting.
and the travel argument is utterly invalid. if you have a game with at least __somewhat__ realistic distances, it would be much faster to go to a quest zone (like a slum) within the city than to travel from there to some village and then go into a forest to slay some monster squirrels. even more the city could be a threedimensional zone with multiple layers (e.g. noble district with towers and bridges, upper town on the hill, lower town, sewers, underground slums) whereas the usual questing zone is just a more or less plain landscape maybe somewhat broken and sloped.
so navigation in the city will be definately more difficult, but there can be gamemechanical aids to help with that. also a city will embody another - and a more unusual - kind of theater. instead of going to some wildlands and fighting mythical monsters and barbarians a sprawling city offers conflict between factions of humans (or humanoids), law vs. crime, rich vs. poor, syndicate a vs. syndicate b, intrigues, shadow wars.
there are people out there, that like that kind of stuff.
further for the alive argument. actually it's the same for wilderness zones. in today's games these don't feel that much alive as well, only that you don't expect that, maybe because most of us have grown up in cities.
wilderness: heaps of mobs standing around or following nonsensical patrol routes, waiting to be slaughtered, here and there a squirrel or a toad is hopping by (wow) for the flair
city: heaps of npcs standing around, waiting for players to take quests or trade or bank
different place, same sh*tty unimmersive world design
now creating a more alive world with different times of activity (day/night) is another design decision devs have to make, and it has consequences. if a player arrives at night and wants to sell his junk loot, his vendor might not be there because he is in the pub, or in the whorehouse or at home. or you want to have some action but since it is daytime all criminals are hiding, guards are patrolling and there is noone to beat up.
not all players will like this. even i am not absolutely (but quite) sure, if there wouldn't be times where i would hate that. but i am sure that these problems can be mitigated, e.g. in the night you have a fence instead of an official vendor, maybe with worse prices, and at day you only have fighting going on in some parts of the sewers while at night all slums are zones of conflict. and of course you can not do this with a day cycle which is the same as realtime (as in wow), people that could only play in the evening would be forced to go for a nightstalker career :-D
another option would be to split the whole thing into a day and a night zone, like it happend for the noob island of AoC. this approach also has it's merits but it is a tough design decision.
That's still atrocious unless they plan to place the needed NPCs in apile near the city entrance. Otherwise you end up with big sprawling 'immersive' messes like the capital cities in PotBS.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Clearly it's possible in a single player game.
that's not the same thing as "clearly it's possible in a MASSIVE game".
In UO you can build things just about anywhere.
Clearly that is possible in a massive game. IN A 2D MASSIVE GAME!
Not so doable in a 3D Massive game.
Also, I know some people find being lost "immersive" but I do not.
Wandering aimlessly for a long time because I cannot find where I want to go is not fun for me.
I have a bad sense of direction in real life, and I may take an extended break from playing a game.
I will not remember I have to go left, left, right, left, right, right, left, and left again...
Was that travel directions or did I just get hit with some secret forum combo roundhouse power move?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
One of the biggest cities i ever been in in a game was Anhk-Morpork in the Discworld MUD. It is truly massive. Now if they could make a city like that in a 3d MMO that would be awesome.
Problem with most MMO's like has been observed in this thread is that it is just a place to bank your junk and grab a quest before you head out again. They need to make cities alive and vibrant, and unsafe. Every city in an MMO should be invaded and sacked occasionally. Dragons should swoop down and flame strafe a few buildings and streets. Uprisings from the slums. Wizard magic running amok and leaving parts of cities death traps. I think there are plenty of options for cities to be made as part of the game, rather than a bland setting people log off in.
I just think devs have no imagination when it comes to city life. I think Guildwars 2 is coming close to trying to make cities an interesting place to be, we need to see more of that.
Map of Anhk-Morpork
http://daftjunk.com/dw/Ankh-Morpork.gif
Archlinux ftw
MMO cities are designed with a few goals in mind. One of them is to create that sense of, well, massiveness. Another very important goal, however, is to include all the important functional MMO hotspots and make them all conveniently accessible to players. By hotspots I mean class trainers, profession trainers, stables, auction house(s), bank(s), inns, etc.
Ease of accessibility to all of these hotspots would be severely compromised in a city like Damascus in Assassin's Creed. Many players have already been complaining of travel time from one hotspot to another in MMO cities. If Damascus were an MMO city, you would need to either make 90% of the buildings empty and/or make theirs interior inaccessible (like they are in AC), or you would need to add 30+ auction houses, banks, class and profession trainers/workers, and inns so you literally run into these hotspots all over the place. Neither are very compelling options imo.
I too loved the layout of the cities in AC. They worked for the game. Most of the buildings were nothing but climbing objects. The environment was a playground of props to be used as part of the game's action-oriented quest objectives. That's just not the case in MMO gameplay, however. Having 90% of MMO buildings be nothing more than empty props would create a dull, empty--albeit appropriately massive--atmosphere. Not to mention player after player would become increasingly frustrated every time they entered a new city and just wanted to find their class trainer.
Maybe MMO which mainly happened inside a city, with political and other aspects considered.
Issue is the scale, normaly what we see is something where there lives only 100-1000 people (or there is no room to live in at all), and we see only part of them. In reality the scale is quite different 1000 is nothing 10k is decent, but the capitols should span in 100k or 1M range. And those shouldn't be small, instead it's quite large. Just consider Rome, in history...
That's all very true.
The problem is that an mmo city just doesn't operate like a "real life" city. It only has a few things that it needs to do and those things, though they can be duplicated might seem silly if they were duplicated over a large area.
I remember finally getting to Baldur's Gate in "Baldur's Gate". I kept going into every door that I could find but realized after a while that it was all the same thing for the most part.
If an mmo were to have one type of armor one place, another in another place, trainers spread out all over the place, etc, then players would just complain.
Assuming there were trainers.
I alwasy thought that if an mmo had a robust crafting system where players had some control over what they create, that store space could be given to players (in a "massive" city).
But then we would just get the screaming about how an Auction House is better.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think devs are missing out on versatility of content by not having large cities (and the crime rates that accompany them) that not only act as a quest hub but the location of the quest. Maybe some players want to do something besides the normal ecocide quests. Fight against the organised crime or work for them etc. When you get tired of that for the day got on some epic monster slaying quest.
My theme song.
I find large cities annoying, where you have to run for a few minutes before reaching the next npc to talk to. Maybe because they don't really feel like a city. They're huge, but players mostly gather at a certain spot, near the teleporter or a bank.
I'd want to see a city that really does feel like a city in an mmorpg though. A city doesn't have to be one map, so if a city is divided into districts, that would be great. A town square, district 1 has monsters, etc. A little like Neverwinter Nights, if anyone here has ever played that.
You mentioned earlier about cities in L2 and I agree the cities are stunning and do feel like cities, I do think they missed an opportunity to populate properly, even with the introduction of clan halls I dont think it was enough, there is still so much unused space, they missed out on adding height and floors to the already amazing house models as well as allow players to purchase or rent these places for vendors etc...
The cathedrals on the main cities for instance, I felt were under used, they could have different levels and much more detail inside, this ofc would mean add more functionality not just empty rooms or NPCs doing the same.
Hmm that makes me think of an old dungeons and dragon's scenario book about some massive medieval city in ruins, that was basically the whole play area, full of nasties and whatever.
Something like that might translate fairly well to an mmo format, perhaps.. would be easier to make a city in ruins feel 'alive' I'd imagine.
Oh yea, and AOC has a pretty large multi-zone city with some combat districts, doesn't it?
TO OP:
I think you hit a home run here. I understand what you are saying and I like the idea. I actually havent ever considered it.
Could add sewers for mob hunting, maybe undead slums at night, tons of shops for crafting needs, various quests. Yup. I get it and like I say I like the idea.
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Please do not respond to me
If there is one thing you would think a city would have in abundance around every corner, it's NPCs to talk to.
murder mysteries to solve, back allies, abandoned building, hell abandoned parks!
yup I am on board.
actually in neverwinter nights my mod was mostly a city becuase i couldnt stop myself focused on the details
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
When I first joined Lineage 2 I was surprised to see that a good many buildings were essentially props.
There was a time we were running to that city on the coast, west of gludio (that for the life of me I can't remember) and we passed a cabin with an npc. So my clanmate ran up to the npc but it was nothing. Then there is a windmill that is high on a hill as you go through a small ravine into "The wastes". I spent a small amount of time trying to figure out how one got up to it only to realize there wasn't any way to get to it.
Shame that.
However, what made Lineage 2's cities "Cities" was that a lot went on in them.
There were trainers, specialty stores like "The Luxury Shop" (in Giran) Clan halls (could be more I agree) Blacksmiths for upgrading weapons, the bank, people hawking their wares or people shouting they could craft x and y.
Giran was great!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo