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General: Top Player Mistakes
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
The List a week or two ago featured a look at the Top Developer Mistakes when making games. That column generated a lot of buzz around here at MMORPG.com. But devs aren't the only culpable parties when it comes to making mistakes. Players make mistakes too. In The List today, Lead Writer Bill Murphy takes a look at common player mistakes. Check it out and see if you agree or not.
A couple weeks ago our List was all about the five worst things a developer could do when making a new game. I think we were pretty fair and honest with our summations, and hopefully some wily dev-folk out there will have read it and taken away something from the article. But the developers aren’t the only people who need to start showing some measure of restraint when getting amped up for a new game. We players have been prone to our own mistakes for several years now. In the interest of fairness, this week’s List will be all about the things we players should try to avoid doing from here on out. Take a look, and see if there’s anything we forgot or anything we got wrong.
Read more of Bill Murphy's The List: Top Player Mistakes.
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Comments
Regarding number 4, there are game designers and then there are producers who pays for it all. If producers want something like WoW then you as a game designer cant do jack shit, if you want their money to develop.
In the current MMO industry, based on AAA titles being released, it is all about the money because people in Suits, who want to invest and make money are calling the shots. That is why no AAA title has been released in the past few years that does not reuse WoWs basic elements of themepark, casual and fast/easy quest based advancement.
We have only in the indy companies to rely on innovativation and thinking outside of the box and they dont have any money. Why? For above stated reasons, they cant find a publisher to give them the dough because all they want are WoW clones.
Also it is interesting that you list number 2 here but in your list of developer misstakes you dont mention anything about listening to your customers. I can only summise that you think us customers should just shut up because we dont know anything.
We the customers are the ones that ultimately pay the bills and use their product. Them NOT listening to us is just shere arrogance on their side.
And many, MANY beta players have voiced valid and constructive concerns before games like WAR and AoC were released. Just to be ignored by the devs. Probably why so many people now respond with anger because they know that the devs wont give a shit what you think or say.
Also, since we are paying, they need to serve us so in no way are we obliged to be polite to them as they need to be to you. Problem is that customers are so many so to use that ultimate power of withdrawing all, or most of the, the funds is dificult to do.
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5. Writing off a studio - so just how many chances are we players supposed to give studios that ignore players?
This is the only business I know of on the planet where it's common practise for companies to ignore the wishes of their customers, to provide poor service, to change products and services without any heads up.
The fact is as a business person if I didn't listen to my customers - I'd lose customers - and probably go out of business.
You "guys" in the gaming industry have no business sense. None at all.
Try not listening to your customers in the "real" world - and let's see how long your business lasts.
Rift is a refreshing breath of fresh air.
They get my money and my loyalty - just because they do listen and they do respond.
Rift has a FANTASTIC developer team.
I think number 2 and 3 happen a lot when someone sees something in a game they do not want. The biggest problem at least on forums is, the ranting or raving or even constructive cristism isn't really having any impact on the game at all. It just irriates the followers of the game and can at times cause flame wars. Constructive or not. Unless it's emailed or said in locations that will get seen by devs there is little point in going over what you think is wrong with X game, because the fans won't care, they will just either shrug it off, put up links to contradict it. those undecided will just ignore both sides (not listening to fanboys who turn everything positive and trolls who do the opposite) and watch the games themselves and the people against it, well your just preaching the choir.
An argument can be made that the devs "may" watch the boards and thus a person gripes might be addressed (but this chance is so low of actually happening that it's usually a bad way of going about getting it fixed) but in reality, if the person in question really was worried about the games development they would find the proper channels to get the problem addressed (like Q and As, emailing, going to shows where you can talk directly to them), anything short of that is down to two points for me:
1.) they want to try and make the game look bad so it will fail
The only problem with this is "if" they manage to get it to fail, then they gotta hope that the developers when looking at why it failed look at the exact reason you were trying show by making the game fail. This is equal to blowing up the building because the wall paper was the wrong shade of green. Not really the most effective, and a darn good chance they will figure it was something else like the animations when it was the type of combat that was the problem.
2.) They want to rally the people under one banner and get it fixed.
This one is a much more constructive way of doing things but is quite a bit harder and unless you manage to get quite a following your voice still ins't going to get heard. Then you have the problem if your "issue" with said game is not really that big of a deal. THen most will shrug it off and usually the person reverts back to 1.
In my opinion is to state what you feel is wrong, try and see if theres enough people to accomplish way 2. If theres a valid concern amongst the community. Then you have something. If there isn't. Just shrug it off as something you don't like and move on.
A key note to some who may want to try way 2 of doing things.
First off, state your problem in as constructive way as possible. Remember your trying to get them to come to your side. Never use words like this will make it fail. You all don't see this because your blind when looking at the game. You all just blindly follow the developers. This will shoot your arguement in the foot so fast it will make your head spin. It will be a shouting/flame match from there on out.
Second while debating your problem, make sure you've done a lot of research. Last thing you want to do is find out mid way through your concern is already been adressed.
Third: understand where the game is in the development process. Is it even possible to fix what you find to be an issue at this point? Saying something like the world looks terrible it should be fixed 2 days away from release is a bit late. Everything is already set.
Finally: Realize when it's just not possible to turn people to your cause and simply say something to the effect. Okay it still seems like an issue to me, so have fun guys. If you ever feel the same way i do, feel free to email me.
Remember merely because you may not turn them to your cause now doesn't mean they can't later. keeping doors open is the best way to go to getting your issue solved.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I think a top player mistake is in thinking the only dynamics that should be in a game are the ones they like. Take crafting for example. Some people who don't craft take an attitude like "I don't like crafting so there should be no crafting in the game." I think this hurts the genre. Different dynamics draw dfferent players and the broader and deeper the playerbase is, the more fun the game can be for everyone.
#5 I've tried to go back to studios. I've been burnt multiple times by the SAME studios. SOE, Cryptic, Funcom. I simply don't trust their products at launch anymore. For me to have blind faith in their next game would be laughable.
Just a point to Yamato above. Why do you assume that devs are ignoring customers? Simple fact, you can't just wave a magic wand and effect change. It's not like game developers are sitting around thinking about what to do next once an MMO title launches. Any changes have to be balanced against what's already currently on the schedule. And mainly due to signal/noise ratio, forums aren't a direct part of the development pipeline, so it takes even longer to migrate something useful you might see in a post or hear from a community manager.
Priority and coordination are also issues. I've seen people complain that something small like icons got updated when much larger issues at still at large. Fact is, the time/effort involved to change those icons wasn't taken away from the larger issues and doesn't mean the large issues are on the back burner.
I realize it often seems like it takes forever for the changes you want to arrive, but don't assume malice just because nobody sent you a PM telling you your ideas are on the docket.
In a perfect world, I'd agree to all 5. But today I'll only agree with the top 3.
#5 is unfortunately disproven by just bad management decisions by some companies, who continue to keep those decision in effect (SOE is infamous for good reason: NGE, Vanguard left to dry, Planetside's issues, etc). Granted folks are early to jump the gun, like with my the example of Cryptic (though they are trending in the wrong direction)...the concept is not a mistake, it does happen & too often due to managerial / marketing tactics. I'd agree to jumping the gun or throwing them under the bus early, but not the fact that the inherient generalization is a mistake.
#4 is unfortunately true for almost all publically held companies. The low end of the totem poll may love games, hell I would even guess 95% of developers love their games they work on and in general - but this does not sell the product, nor does it effect timelines (to an extent), marketing strats, intended userbase, etc. The bottomline, is itself...what can make players 51% happy and continued subbed and/or using the cash shop. Multi-million dollar investments in games are made not to make the world a better of fun place, though we'd love to wish it true, but to make the investors their money back & then some...with the hope of some fun, if it keeps ppl playing that is. So for corporate MMO makers, its no mistake - for indy devs? sure, the $ just may indeed be an afterthought.
#4: While it's not always about money, companies do operate to generate profit. As a customer whose money the company asks, I don't think it's a mistake to assume it's about money. It's healthy caution to assume that the company is acting to get profit/minimize their losses, and be a bit careful that I won't end up paying too much.
I have to agree with the others said, in that only agree with 1-3.
4. I agree that most devs are not in it to make money but make good games, but only higher then the devs that doesn't work on the game or to publisher it's all about the money. They might like to have a good game but they would rather have a bad game that make money. This why there is so many crappy pay to be any good F2P games and why there so many rip offs of WoW/EQ.
5. Now I agree that writing them off after one game is a mistask but after a number of them? Sorry but Cyptric and SOE will NEVER get any more money from me. They both have contuined to make subpar game after subpar game.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
The reason I think that is because of games like WAR and AoC where players pointed out alot of deficiencies in beta that was summaririly ignored because the devs were too busy copying WoW.
For example WAR felt alot more like WoW than it did both Warhammer and DAoC. Alot of people for example said it makes no sense to bundle Chaos and Greenskins together, yet they refused to make three factions like in DAoC.
In AoC alot of people complained that after the beginning 20 levels the game lacked alot of content and had alot of PvP imbalances. Yet Funcom ignored that and released anyway.
Even in STO one would think they would try to cater to the millions of Star Trek fans. Instead they went for a cheap WoW knockoff and went even more casual and instanced.
Finally when did you last see devs taking some input from players and implementing them in a game? For DCUO what players wanted this craptastic UI and pointless open PvP with only meaning to gank people?
Who wanted a gear based MMO based on super heroes which traditionally use their innate powers or unique gadgets and not replacable gear?
The MMO industry is probably one of the most detached from their potential customers.
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I agree with all except #5. When you have a CEO with his head up his butt it does not matter what the studio does, they always seem to mess it up. Two that come quickly to mind are Mark Jacobs and John Smedley. They both seem to have the anti-midas touch when it comes to games.
As to #3, sometimes when almost the entire game population rises up in anger it is time for the developers to take note that there is a major problem. Two instances of this come to mind, SWG's NGE and DAoC's Atlantis expansion. In both instances the developers blissfully ignored game stopping issues which was followed by a rapid decline in subscriptions. Pervasive anger should be a huge warning sign for developers to either back off the changes or fix them.
1-3: Can't argue. All valid points.
4: It really is all about the money and you're exceptionally naive - or disturbingly gullable - if you believe otherwise. In your case, I expect you're just deliberately side-stepping the real issue so you've something trashy to add to the list; in either case, I'm unimpressed. Sure, the developers and designers almost definitely put their hearts and souls into a game but that doesn't mean squat once the Suits get their grubby mitts all over things. The single greatest frustration of any game developer I know, or have worked with, is when the "money men" start to throw their weight around and cause things to be pushed forward too fast, require stupid additions that take time away from the more important aspects because "market research says X, Y and Z" (when such research is obviously flawed) or force an early release because they're bored of waiting and are impatient for their ROIs (not realising that they're lowering said returns by pushing out an incomplete and/or bug-ridden game and alienating their customers - and possibly even their staff).
5: I've yet to find a studio - or, more generally, a studio, producer or distributer - that I've "written off" that has done anything worth going back to them for. Limiting the 'bullet point' to only studios is distinctly narrow-minded, in fact, as they're only ever a small part of the various reasons people write them off, anyway. Of the list I keep, SoE, EA and Funcom are at the top (in that order) and, since they were placed there, have done nothing to deserve being taken back off and, arguably, have just re-inforced their being there, since.
Your previous "top developer mistakes" article was a good read; this one's not worth the time you spent on it. Meh!
So much mad in this thread.
At first I thought this was going to be something about mistakes players make while playing games, and I was thinking how there really are no mistakes a player can make in a game. Every legal action is a legal action.
But now I see this is actually a list of mistakes players make on this website. And I agree with all of them.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
"yet they refused to make three factions like in DAoC"
This would be a monumental task to undertake during Beta. You're talking about rebuilding a ton of interconnected systems from nearly the ground up. This wouldn't have been possible by either time or budget at any point but the very, very initial stages, and possibly not even then as the game scope was likely tailored to a specific budget/timeline.
"In AoC alot of people complained that after the beginning 20 levels the game lacked alot of content and had alot of PvP imbalances. Yet Funcom ignored that and released anyway."
And I have no doubt that those things were known and "on the list", just lower in priority than a lot of other things they had going on at the time. You don't just write a line of code that says "set content = content*1.20" and magically create 20% more content. And release dates cost A LOT of money to change because of the coordination with advertising and retailers which is usually arranged wel in advance. It's not as simple as saying, "we'll just take a few months and release after Christmas".
"Even in STO one would think they would try to cater to the millions of Star Trek fans. "
Um, Cryptic . . . you're pretty much calling this one as it is, although I personally chalk it up more to short-sightedness than malice based on what little I know on the situation there.
Finally when did you last see devs taking some input from players and implementing them in a game?
About once every two weeks or so on average, depending on how expressly player input needs to be heeded to count. Sometimes, it's quite abstract. "I've seen the word "slow" come up a few times now. I'm going to double check the animation timings on the low level attacks when I get a chance and see what's up. "
The MMO industry is probably one of the most detached from their potential customers.
There are a lot of different types of MMO customers in a single game and the balancing act one has to play is far more complex than with a console or standard PC game. Don't assume anyone is purposefully getting snubbed when it's more likely that developers are aiming to reach as many of those groups as they can as efficiaently as possible.
It's not uncommon for a decision to involve "the needs of the many" but it's pretty rare for someone to say "screw those guys".
Sorry, not trying to pick a fight with you. I get that you feel like you're getting snapped with the short end of the stick from people who should want you to give them your money. It's just not as black-and-white as it may seem, and I figured that I could offer some perspective which might help you understand that there's simply not nearly as much malice involved as some people seem to presume.
And I apologize for the unintentional wall of text above. I fail at translating the proper spacing of my post to the actual page.
If we were in the same room, I'd be clapping and giving you a standing ovation.
Damn right.
In response to #5:
While some of you are prepared to lean across the headmaster's desk, reciting "Thank you, sir, may I have another" repeatedly, I am not. When I've been screwed over suitably well by a company, that's it. They've lost me as a customer.
You see, what people seem to forget is that these companies don't give us anything we need, only what we want. We can always do without because there are many other people out there who want our money, and are willing to earn it. Returning to a company that has already given you the shaft is the same sort of wrong-headed thinking that keeps people in abusive relationships.
Find some pride and turn your back on them. Any other response encourages further poor behaviour from others when they realize what an easy mark you are.
Thats a matter of opinion. I thought they were great. Then I beta'd, and I'm disappointed. I subbed, but only until SWTOR comes out. I'm bored and want something to play.
It's a mistake to assume that a company's motivations are shared by all employees equally.
I wouldn't expect the *developers* to be in it for the money - the dirty secret of capitalism in the information age is that money is actually a poor motivator for creativity. However the suits most definitely are and as power in any maturing industry naturally shifts towards the head office, there will be preasure to put the priority on turning customers into cash facets.
Dev4ALiving: Im a SW developer too, on a much smaller scale (Web/Enterprise applications) so I know how it is to cater to the customers yet we do it and highly value what they want.
However we have alot fewer customers so yeah I understand the problem which arises when trying to cater to houndreds of thousands of gamers. However when you are building on a famous IP then I would think it is safe to assume that your customers would want you to honor the IP, i.e. not to lump together Chaos and GreenSkins together.
And yeah sure, development costs money but you dont release something that is unfinished and not up to the quality that the customers want. In most industries that is given but for some reason it seems OK for MMO developers to release a seemingly unfinished product and then use the sales to finish the development. If we would do that for sure our customers would leave us.
Moreover you cannot deny that each and other AAA title released is trying to imitate WoW. Not because their potential customer base wants it but rather that they are trying to take a chunk of WoWs customer base. This has shown over and again to be a failed bussiness model, yet the guys in the Suits keep doing it with Rift being the latest WoW clone.
In this case I suppose they think their potential customer base are WoW players or ex WoW players but at the same time they are ignoring the people who does not like WoW, which is a pity, since Eve has shown that such a player base does indeed exist.
Finally I dont think malice is what is going on in the devs/producers mind but rather money money and more money. By trying to imitate WoWs tired casual, linear, themepark instanced MMO world they are just showing that they dont care as much for making a good game as for making a good WoW clone, which again is because they are looking at the big chunk of WoW cake then will get hold on rather than to again, just produce a good, innovative and MMO that breaks boundaries rather than build inside those boundaries.
Ok yes, I am going off topic but after seeing WoW clone after WoW clone being released by big corps I am starting to doubt that they want to produce games or just make more money.
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Well I am guilty of 2, 3 and 5
As far as too number 5 writing off a studio. I have to say I have written of 2 studios completely. Turbine, and Cryptic. There acts are so bad I had to write them off. I know a lot of folks are going to say what about SOE. While the SWG made me very angry indeed , I still to this day play EQ2.
As far as to numbers 2 and 3 using anger to demand code changes and my thoughts are always right. All one has to do is take a look at my posting to be aware of that. I am surprised that I don't have 3 titles, most hated poster, most flamed poster, or most warned poster. Any of those would work.
I have to respectfully disagree about number 4 its all about the money. Ahem yes its always about the money. All one has to do is look at the item store that lotro and that sto have. Hello.
Oh well crawling back under the rock from whence I came.
If you don't like item malls, then how come you still play EQ2? I played that game for 6 years. Its still one of the best games out there. But SOE and the devs greed chased me away.
Number 4 is off base. It IS about money, else the MMO genre wouldn't be dominated by Themepark games. These companies look left and look right and latch on to the set of ideas they think will draw the most money. If this weren't the case you'd see more AAA type companies with AAA type money making games along the lines of UO and AC. But you don't. AAA companies make games that heavily, heavily borrow from the WoW recipe. Because they want that money.
As for number 5, you have your opinion and if you like being slapped in the face a few times, hey, whatever floats your boat. If a company feels that it doesn't "Owe me anything" and can do whatever it wants with it's game, I got no issue with it. In that very same vein I'm am not obligated to ever do business with nor contribute in any fashion that will benefit that companies growth or success.
Indeed, Bill, you championing doing so is a part of the problem today as far as companies putting out inferior product or companies treating their customer bases like poo (SOE anyone). You're essentially suggesting that we stick with them no matter what they do.
Well, no sir. I will not. And the great thing is that sentiment I just expressed is starting to catch like wildfire. Us older gamers are shunning those companies and for those of us that have kids, keeping our kids from buying their product too.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
awesome list
BestSigEver :P
I agree with 5, to an extent,. I don't think you should completely ignore a company, but when a company keeps messing up it is only reasonable people will be critical and not just dive into the hype machine.
I partially agree with 4, I think most of them just like to make games, however it seems that whoever is calling the shots is just seeking money, some of the loudest characters in the gaming world (kotick) are clearly just greedy, so it makes the game loving majority look worse than it really is.
100% agree with 1,2 and 3.
-I want a Platformer MMO