Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What's soured me on FFA PvP games isn't so much that I get ganked for no reason. It's moreso that the people doing it abuse game mechanics to pick and choose who they gank, then run off and hide with little to no fear of any actual consequences. Simply put, it's far too easy to get away with being a jerk and indescriminately kill people in FFA MMOs.
This is pretty much why I consider the argument that the person who was ganked can use PvP to get revange to be mostly BS.
A dedicated ganker will simply log off and go eat dinner, go to sleep, go out with friends when they you come looking for them. The person seeking revenge is then faced with the prospect of waiting for hours/days for the culprit to log back on so they can be attacked. A sane person will give up after 20-30 minutes and go do something productive and/or fun.
If the game makes the PKer unable to sue certain services due to their 'red' status, they will simply use alts to get what they need and transfer it to the main character.
What's soured me on FFA PvP games isn't so much that I get ganked for no reason. It's moreso that the people doing it abuse game mechanics to pick and choose who they gank, then run off and hide with little to no fear of any actual consequences. Simply put, it's far too easy to get away with being a jerk and indescriminately kill people in FFA MMOs.
This is pretty much why I consider the argument that the person who was ganked can use PvP to get revange to be mostly BS.
A dedicated ganker will simply log off and go eat dinner, go to sleep, go out with friends when they you come looking for them. The person seeking revenge is then faced with the prospect of waiting for hours/days for the culprit to log back on so they can be attacked. A sane person will give up after 20-30 minutes and go do something productive and/or fun.
Yep. This is the joke, frankly, with some self-proclaimed "Hardcore PvP'ers".
In my experience, the bigger their mouth and the bolder their bragging (especially on forums), the quicker they are to run away or log out when facing someone who can actually give them a fair fight.
Another ironic thing those same types will do is talk about how lame PvE content is, how it poses no challenge and requires no skill, how it's easy-mode for carebears and others who aren't "real gamers". We've all seen their posts, I'm sure. Then, once in game, they go and do the PvP equivalent of that by going after players that are easy targets to them, are not a challenge and require no skill to beat... Then they gloat about being so hardcore... That is, again, 'til an actual challenge shows up... then they're too busy running away to do anything else.
Yep... the wanna-be "hardcore PvP'ers" are quite funny - in a sad way - to watch.
Unfortunately, though,they are the ones who go from game to game, doing their best to ruin the experience of as many new players as they can. They are a problem and, so, do need to be dealt with.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Yep. This is the joke, frankly, with some self-proclaimed "Hardcore PvP'ers".
In my experience, the bigger their mouth and the bolder their bragging (especially on forums), the quicker they are to run away or log out when facing someone who can actually give them a fair fight.
Another ironic thing those same types will do is talk about how lame PvE content is, how it poses no challenge and requires no skill, how it's easy-mode for carebears and others who aren't "real gamers". We've all seen their posts, I'm sure. Then, once in game, they go and do the PvP equivalent of that by going after players that are easy targets to them, are not a challenge and require no skill to beat... Then they gloat about being so hardcore... That is, again, 'til an actual challenge shows up... then they're too busy running away to do anything else.
Yep... the wanna-be "hardcore PvP'ers" are quite funny - in a sad way - to watch.
Unfortunately, though,they are the ones who go from game to game, doing their best to ruin the experience of as many new players as they can. They are a problem and, so, do need to be dealt with.
I think that is generally true. after a several months of a game with pvp is online the community starts to get a little better. usually after the people you have just described claim that the game is dead is usually when the community for said game gets much better.
The best pvp players often keep their mouth shut because they dont have to trash talk.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
PVP is cheaper to do. Small studios have to go the PVP route. And only small studios are making sandbox, or what is called sandbox, because they aren't really, they are just PVP.
PVP is cheaper to do. Small studios have to go the PVP route. And only small studios are making sandbox, or what is called sandbox, because they aren't really, they are just PVP.
Correction pvp is much more better prospect than rpg.
When will Sandbox MMO, take PvE to the next gen level? When wil lwe get large scale PvE raids? What about this new PvE Event trend that WoW,Rift, and GW2 has? When will Sandbox genre get this level of PvE?
GW2 and Rift I dig, but WoW? That's new to me. Can the OP or seeing that the OP hasn't returned to his own thread someone else tell me what the new PvE trend in WoW is that puts it onto the same level as Rift and GW2 regarding this dynamic content?
As for taking PvE to the next level, from what I've read Xsyon seems to be doing exactly that, being far more focused on the PvE/crafting side of things,builfing up a civilisation again after apocalyptic ruin.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You're pretty much asking for SWG before they fcked it up with CU and NGE, which is why so many people are still extremely dissapointed several years after they made the game a joke.
Indie developers make PvP the focus of sandboxes when they don't have the time and resources to initally create a fully balanced game.
The two recently sandboxes, MO and DFO both started as emptier games content wise.
MO is still working out bugs but adds content now and then. DFO kept a small crowd of people entertained with competitive PvP and an extended character skill grind but added and improved it's PvE drastically in the last two expansions, now it doesn't need the extended grind they've cut that out (almost) to allow more casual players to jump in. Next revamping the world, creating diversity, more sandbox features and fixing the alignment system to allow PvE players to enjoy the game more.
So it's not the PvP focus that's the killer, it's indie companies inability to create a balanced Sandbox right off the shot. They need time.
What's soured me on FFA PvP games isn't so much that I get ganked for no reason. It's moreso that the people doing it abuse game mechanics to pick and choose who they gank, then run off and hide with little to no fear of any actual consequences. Simply put, it's far too easy to get away with being a jerk and indescriminately kill people in FFA MMOs.
This is pretty much why I consider the argument that the person who was ganked can use PvP to get revange to be mostly BS.
A dedicated ganker will simply log off and go eat dinner, go to sleep, go out with friends when they you come looking for them. The person seeking revenge is then faced with the prospect of waiting for hours/days for the culprit to log back on so they can be attacked. A sane person will give up after 20-30 minutes and go do something productive and/or fun.
If the game makes the PKer unable to sue certain services due to their 'red' status, they will simply use alts to get what they need and transfer it to the main character.
Yup. The problem of sandbox PvP is largely not the inclusion of PvP, it is tarnishing PvP with too much safety. Griefers and gankers can hide behind anonymity, log off or use other methods to be safe from PvP.
And although it has been probably said many times, it bears repeating: you cannot have sandbox (as in world forming) game without PvP, FFA no less, because resources are limited and you have to resolve the resulting conflits somehow. You can chose to twist it though but you usually end up with metagaming in legal jungle instead of fun game.
And although it has been probably said many times, it bears repeating: you cannot have sandbox (as in world forming) game without PvP, FFA no less, because resources are limited and you have to resolve the resulting conflits somehow. You can chose to twist it though but you usually end up with metagaming in legal jungle instead of fun game.
I really do not see why you need to have limited resources in a sandbox game. It just promotes conflict. You could have unlimited resources but require the cooperation and teamwork of a lot of people to utilize them to the fullest. Alternatevely you could simply require the players to be sufficiently dedicated to get the full use of the resources.
Originally posted by Torik Originally posted by Tyrrhon And although it has been probably said many times, it bears repeating: you cannot have sandbox (as in world forming) game without PvP, FFA no less, because resources are limited and you have to resolve the resulting conflits somehow. You can chose to twist it though but you usually end up with metagaming in legal jungle instead of fun game.
I really do not see why you need to have limited resources in a sandbox game. It just promotes conflict. You could have unlimited resources but require the cooperation and teamwork of a lot of people to utilize them to the fullest. Alternatevely you could simply require the players to be sufficiently dedicated to get the full use of the resources.
You can have a sandbox game without FFA PvP. Saying you can't do it without FFA PvP is just silly. You don't even really need PvP at all, much less combat PvP. It depends on how you've designed the game's world.
You do kind of need some limitations on resources. If for no other reason than to give them value. How you limit it is something you can mess around with though. For instance, you have infinite mana, but not all at once. It has to regenerate. You can use mana to develop or craft something that is sellable, but the limitation is in being able to craft that item and in the time it takes to save up the mana to make it. Mana is free, and infinite, but not without some limitations.
Combat is an easy seller though. You don't need it, but people expect it in anything that looks like a world simulation. People expect it because by and large, people enjoy simulated combat. It's exciting and you don't really die. The problem with combat is that it has been kind of played out. We need something in addition to combat, especially in an mmorpg.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I agree that sandbox MMOs have lately been going to far into the PvP genre. I keep hoping someone will release a game like Asheron's Call. Open world sandbox, optional PvP.
I really do not see why you need to have limited resources in a sandbox game. It just promotes conflict. You could have unlimited resources but require the cooperation and teamwork of a lot of people to utilize them to the fullest. Alternatevely you could simply require the players to be sufficiently dedicated to get the full use of the resources.
Unfortunately that's now how people or virtual worlds work.
^--- A great document for learning the basics of virtual wrold economies and resource management.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Am I silly? Well thanks I guess, excuse me if I do not return the compliment.
You want to remove combat? Fine with me. But that will not remove conflict just shift it over to the game rules lawyers. You want infinite resources? Fine with me, I like WoW instances too. But you will not be able to build anything meaningfull in the world then. Because the place you have built it in is itself a resouce that you would consume in the process.
Separate PvP and combat. I understand you dislike combat but having your house encircled by impenetrable wall you are not allowed to touch is not more fun. Not at all.
Edit: You can solve that by disallowing player combat but allowing attacks on property. You will then watch a thug set your house on fire unable to prevent it.
Comments
Yeah, when I played for 3 years I lost more ships in high sec than I did in low sec or 0.0.
High sec is where all the real action is.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is pretty much why I consider the argument that the person who was ganked can use PvP to get revange to be mostly BS.
A dedicated ganker will simply log off and go eat dinner, go to sleep, go out with friends when they you come looking for them. The person seeking revenge is then faced with the prospect of waiting for hours/days for the culprit to log back on so they can be attacked. A sane person will give up after 20-30 minutes and go do something productive and/or fun.
If the game makes the PKer unable to sue certain services due to their 'red' status, they will simply use alts to get what they need and transfer it to the main character.
Yep. This is the joke, frankly, with some self-proclaimed "Hardcore PvP'ers".
In my experience, the bigger their mouth and the bolder their bragging (especially on forums), the quicker they are to run away or log out when facing someone who can actually give them a fair fight.
Another ironic thing those same types will do is talk about how lame PvE content is, how it poses no challenge and requires no skill, how it's easy-mode for carebears and others who aren't "real gamers". We've all seen their posts, I'm sure. Then, once in game, they go and do the PvP equivalent of that by going after players that are easy targets to them, are not a challenge and require no skill to beat... Then they gloat about being so hardcore... That is, again, 'til an actual challenge shows up... then they're too busy running away to do anything else.
Yep... the wanna-be "hardcore PvP'ers" are quite funny - in a sad way - to watch.
Unfortunately, though,they are the ones who go from game to game, doing their best to ruin the experience of as many new players as they can. They are a problem and, so, do need to be dealt with.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I think that is generally true. after a several months of a game with pvp is online the community starts to get a little better. usually after the people you have just described claim that the game is dead is usually when the community for said game gets much better.
The best pvp players often keep their mouth shut because they dont have to trash talk.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
PVP is cheaper to do. Small studios have to go the PVP route. And only small studios are making sandbox, or what is called sandbox, because they aren't really, they are just PVP.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Correction pvp is much more better prospect than rpg.
Pre-NGE SWG...had it all, even if it was buggy sometimes.
GW2 and Rift I dig, but WoW? That's new to me. Can the OP or seeing that the OP hasn't returned to his own thread someone else tell me what the new PvE trend in WoW is that puts it onto the same level as Rift and GW2 regarding this dynamic content?
As for taking PvE to the next level, from what I've read Xsyon seems to be doing exactly that, being far more focused on the PvE/crafting side of things,builfing up a civilisation again after apocalyptic ruin.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You're pretty much asking for SWG before they fcked it up with CU and NGE, which is why so many people are still extremely dissapointed several years after they made the game a joke.
Indie developers make PvP the focus of sandboxes when they don't have the time and resources to initally create a fully balanced game.
The two recently sandboxes, MO and DFO both started as emptier games content wise.
MO is still working out bugs but adds content now and then. DFO kept a small crowd of people entertained with competitive PvP and an extended character skill grind but added and improved it's PvE drastically in the last two expansions, now it doesn't need the extended grind they've cut that out (almost) to allow more casual players to jump in. Next revamping the world, creating diversity, more sandbox features and fixing the alignment system to allow PvE players to enjoy the game more.
So it's not the PvP focus that's the killer, it's indie companies inability to create a balanced Sandbox right off the shot. They need time.
Yup. The problem of sandbox PvP is largely not the inclusion of PvP, it is tarnishing PvP with too much safety. Griefers and gankers can hide behind anonymity, log off or use other methods to be safe from PvP.
And although it has been probably said many times, it bears repeating: you cannot have sandbox (as in world forming) game without PvP, FFA no less, because resources are limited and you have to resolve the resulting conflits somehow. You can chose to twist it though but you usually end up with metagaming in legal jungle instead of fun game.
I really do not see why you need to have limited resources in a sandbox game. It just promotes conflict. You could have unlimited resources but require the cooperation and teamwork of a lot of people to utilize them to the fullest. Alternatevely you could simply require the players to be sufficiently dedicated to get the full use of the resources.
You can have a sandbox game without FFA PvP. Saying you can't do it without FFA PvP is just silly. You don't even really need PvP at all, much less combat PvP. It depends on how you've designed the game's world.
You do kind of need some limitations on resources. If for no other reason than to give them value. How you limit it is something you can mess around with though. For instance, you have infinite mana, but not all at once. It has to regenerate. You can use mana to develop or craft something that is sellable, but the limitation is in being able to craft that item and in the time it takes to save up the mana to make it. Mana is free, and infinite, but not without some limitations.
Combat is an easy seller though. You don't need it, but people expect it in anything that looks like a world simulation. People expect it because by and large, people enjoy simulated combat. It's exciting and you don't really die. The problem with combat is that it has been kind of played out. We need something in addition to combat, especially in an mmorpg.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I agree that sandbox MMOs have lately been going to far into the PvP genre. I keep hoping someone will release a game like Asheron's Call. Open world sandbox, optional PvP.
Unfortunately that's now how people or virtual worlds work.
http://www.mine-control.com/zack/uoecon/uoecon.html
^--- A great document for learning the basics of virtual wrold economies and resource management.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Am I silly? Well thanks I guess, excuse me if I do not return the compliment.
You want to remove combat? Fine with me. But that will not remove conflict just shift it over to the game rules lawyers. You want infinite resources? Fine with me, I like WoW instances too. But you will not be able to build anything meaningfull in the world then. Because the place you have built it in is itself a resouce that you would consume in the process.
Separate PvP and combat. I understand you dislike combat but having your house encircled by impenetrable wall you are not allowed to touch is not more fun. Not at all.
Edit: You can solve that by disallowing player combat but allowing attacks on property. You will then watch a thug set your house on fire unable to prevent it.