I think what we have here is a failure to communicate I think there are really 3 labels and i have mentioned this before.
Sandbox has has no npcs to run quest sell off goods to.
Themepark you are forced to run quest.
and a Sandpark where you have very limited npcs to sell to and or run quest but the player creates alot of the content themselves.
The presence of quests or NPCs has nothing to do with which style the MMO leans towards. The amoiunt of guided content vs the number of tools does, which s why the two types are named as such.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I keep seeing Fallen Earth cited as a sandbox and I'm curious what features/tools it has that make it any more of a sandbox than Aion or LOTRO.
People seem to equate Crafting and a focus on that as Sandbox, if a game has alot of building and crafting it must be sandbox, but I always thought sandbox was a game where players make the world and very few quests
In my person opinion there is only one true sandbox game out. Second life. You can create anything you can think of (within the limits of the tech). There might be another game I haven't heard about that allows for that.
The rest of these games, MO, Eve, Earthrise, SWG, etc, are themepark Sandboxes. You can only create what the devs allowed you to create. You always create the same buildings, the same armor that looks no different, weapons that really do not vary.
Point taken regarding all the FE comments. I'll admit I included it in the list based mainly on my beta memories, when it was a great deal more raw but also had a more sandboxy feel.
I played it again last year for a couple of months and you're right, the rails are far more visible than they used to be. I expect it's difficult to avoid leaning in the theme park direction if your players/testers tell you they can't figure out what the hell to do -- one lesson being, if you're aiming to make a sandbox, you need some usable and fun TOOLS and you do need to provide a set of goals, regardless how players choose to achieve them. (Build a city, defeat the evil Empire, kill your rivals, dominate the world market on foozles -- whatever.)
I think what we have here is a failure to communicate I think there are really 3 labels and i have mentioned this before.
Sandbox has has no npcs to run quest sell off goods to.
Themepark you are forced to run quest.
and a Sandpark where you have very limited npcs to sell to and or run quest but the player creates alot of the content themselves.
The presence of quests or NPCs has nothing to do with which style the MMO leans towards. The amoiunt of guided content vs the number of tools does, which s why the two types are named as such.
This is exactly why i say there are 3 types not 2.
in a sandpark you have some type of interaction that the devs have placed in game with npcs or in darkfall for example not only large cities with npcs but your building locations are dev placed you just have to add the resources. While in say Wurm or Xyson there is no dev placed cities no dev placed npc's.
The content and tools the players are given is what creates the content and they can place structures where ever they can claim land.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
Many people seem to think that everyone else should like what they like, and if another person doesn't then that means something is wrong with the other person or themselves. What's true is, there are different flavors of ice cream for a reason - we can like different things. That's not only okay, in my book it's wonderful! The creative variety we have comes in large part because of that fact.
The conflict, for me, comes when I see elements added to the game I am playiing I don't like. In those cases I think it's appropriate for me to say I don't like it, but I should remember first that the game is the creation of a team of people that I wasn't part of, and that my preference is a preference, not a universal law (except when it is, in which case I need to know the difference ). One thing I'm absolutely for is the devs (and the rest of the creative team) creating their vision as purely as they can; getting feedback from the players in terms of mechanics is one thing, but adding elements you don't want to just to make players happy will eventually ruin the game.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
One of the labels ( or many lables) I think have gotten to silly rating is the FTP, freemium, PTW,PTP etc. JUst look at the game and you will know what is required instead of having to trust a label someone has put on it.
Does anyone realy think a game or any business for that matter can survive if its totaly free???? ( well, its not 'free' because you have to buy the box) Auuuuugggg !
Darkfall has not chanced much in sense of holding hands or guide you but it have chanced alot towards grind and gave new players a a shortime protection agains pkers/gankers but thats only few hours.
So far is Darkfall for most part same as launch it just made some very annoying gameplay more pleseant like chopping/mining/fishing auto instead of clicking mouse thousend times.
Or gave normal metal mines also rare ore drops witch was very good improvement for solo and small clans who dont own clancity with rare mine.
And many other nice improvements added to darkfall that make game more pleseant to play like offline skill progress ease the pain of grinding skills and prolly less players will macro now.
But i fear future becouse i hope they wont go ezmode to get more players.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Good article, but unfortunately, it's not going to change anything.
I most agree with the quote about these sub-genres catering to different playstyles, not different people. Most people can enjoy multiple playstyles, though it would seem surprising sometimes. Playing EVE and LotRO is not a crime. Or, hell, even EVE and WoW.
Sandbox is a lot more than simply being able to level by grinding as I have seen written here. Sandbox is the freedom to play the game as you want to play it.
I will use Pre Cu / NGE SWG as an example. There were people in that game that did nothing all day other than entertain the other players in the taverns or heal them in the med centres; Nothing wrong with that at all, it's what they wanted to do and got enjoyment from the interaction with others that needed their services. Some spent all their time crafting and a few became famous on their servers for the high quality gear that their dedication had made possible. Again, nothing wrong with that; they had fun doing what they wanted to do. Some people were what you could call achievers and the game catered to them as well.
I mentioned the medics earlier. Well at times when I didn't feel much like dungeon crawls or questing I would go out into the wilds and hunt the herds that roamed across the grasslands ( or deserts depending which planet I ended up on ) to gather the meat / bones etc. that those medics needed to make their stims and whatnot. At the same time I would keep an eye out for some fine examples of the local wildlife so that I could take a DNA sample back to my lab later and hopefully bioengineer a kickass pet from it, or if not a non hostile addition to someones guildhouse.
theme parks do not give you this freedom. Sure you can hang around and dance all day but you will stay at level 1 and all the people you meet will either ignore you, flame you or laugh at you; and those that don't will simply move on to a higher level zone. You can't craft all day because many of the mats you need drop from the mobs that you are forced to go and kill. Someone could collect the mats for you of course but then where do you get the money to pay for them? You go out and kill stuff. No matter what you try in a theme park it will eventually push you back on the rails and give you a kick up the ass to get you moving along them.
Sandbox games were also in general more complicated than theme parks when it came to character advancment. They made you think about where to improve and what could be ignored. Sure it was possible to completely nerf your own toon by making bad choices but hey, that was half the fun. In a theme park everyone ends up the same. Ah well, that's the nostalgia fix done with for awhile
here is the easiest way to tell a sandbox from a a theme park:
theme parks attempt to simulate the story driven single player RPG experience in a multiplayer setting.
sandboxs attempts to simulate a virtual world.
If your game is spending more time trying to get you to follow a story line than it does trying to get you to develop your character, it''s a good chance that you got a theme park on your hands.
Conversely, no matter how much a theatrics and NPC dialog: if at the end of that big ass cut scene your character is still treated as nothing more than a cog in the machine, your probably playing a sandbox.
Just as an example: by this mentality I actually kinda consider Guild Wars a Sandbox because no matter how much your character is treated like the center of the universe, there is still always some greater event at play and for a goodly portion of even the story mode your expected to develop your character on your own, and PVP mode is about as sandbox as you can get.
The flip side example is FFXI: sure there is a story line and quests, but for the most part partaking of them is provides little to no guidance as far as progressing through the game. The core of FFXI is to farm/craft/sell your way to getting more money so that you can spruce up your house and better gear up your character so that you can better farm/craft/sell. I'd say that 90% of FFXI's gameplay revolves around the auction house economy. I'd call that pretty sandbox.
When I'm on the beach, I like digging for lightening shards and finding shells and seaglass, and other "maybe" valuables. I like taking in the ocean air and tasting the salt on my lips as the foamy waves wash sand between my toes, and I feel the sun on my body making me sweat.
Yet, underneath I want to know exactly where to go to get these things so I can be done with them quickly so i can get to doing other things I wanna do also. I find myself trapped in always waiting or looking for an instant fix or gratification. My mind is in a hurry but the body can't keep up.
Sorry, Bleeped out there for a minute...
I dunno, yeah, as long as I can find a way to have fun it doesn't really matter which type of mmo it is.
They need to make it easier for the common dumb folk like me to make games. Then we'll see some real progress.
Anybody can create art, not everyone can create videogames.
Sandbox play is as much a state of mind as it is a type of game design: to some extent, it’s purely the decision to avoid structure for a time and create one’s own fun. Anyone can do that, in any environment.
I'd like to point out that, as a predominately sandbox player, I found your article to be an interesting and conclusive read. I won't disagree that sandbox play is a state of mind, but the above quote scares the crap out of me (or it will when developers start using it as an example to stop making sandbox games entirely).
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Lets dig a little here. SWG was not hated (Pre-NGE) for its sandbox. It was hated 1) lack of bug fixes, 2) No quest guide in understandable form, 3) Interdependance of professions.
Players hated haveing to find a Entertainer and Medic to get fixed up after death. The decay treadmill also turned off players and limited what diverse appearances that were had. Jedi Grind also robbed the gaming culture of GCW or PVP endgame development. This being said, in no way sides me with the NGE change. I just wanted the game we had fixed. However, in looking back to Pre-CU, I see the forces that drove away players before the coming of WOW.
Sandbox play is as much a state of mind as it is a type of game design: to some extent, it’s purely the decision to avoid structure for a time and create one’s own fun. Anyone can do that, in any environment.
I'd like to point out that, as a predominately sandbox player, I found your article to be an interesting and conclusive read. I won't disagree that sandbox play is a state of mind, but the above quote scares the crap out of me (or it will when developers start using it as an example to stop making sandbox games entirely).
I think there will always be "player developers" that want to create sandbox MMOGs that give the players the freedom they felt they lacked in other games. There will always be talented people with creative visions, and others who can and will fund them.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
I dont think themeparks and sandboxes are comparable. It is like comparing an actual Themepark, like Disney World, to an Amazon Jungle. They are just too different to compare.
One focus on immersion and virtual world other on exciting rides.
One focus on the world where as the other focus on your character, like in a single player game.
So the only big thing they have in common is the fact that they are playable online on persistent servers.
As for why themeparks are so much popular it is quite obvious. First of all you have WoW and all greedy investors want a chunk of that pie. Secondly themeparks are easier both to develop and to play. It is much easier to add a playground with a bunch of rides than trying to create a virtual world or to find your own way in a virtual world.
So a good sandbox takes more money to develop and bring in less money so naturally there are quite alot fewer of them around. Because, like it or not, when something becomes mainstream it all becomes first and foremost about money.
I am just loving your articles! I'm back-reading them because I hadn't read them before. You are definitely a gifted writer. I also enjoyed the comments following. Great ideas and lots of opinions! My style is sandbox. But since I can't find any good ones, I am drifting.....
Comments
The presence of quests or NPCs has nothing to do with which style the MMO leans towards. The amoiunt of guided content vs the number of tools does, which s why the two types are named as such.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Excellent article Izzy!
You've scored once again for mmorpg fans that have achieve a rational, realistic level of moral objectivism.
Open-minded players: 2
Close-minded players: 0
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I agree, the article is full of win. A good writer.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
People seem to equate Crafting and a focus on that as Sandbox, if a game has alot of building and crafting it must be sandbox, but I always thought sandbox was a game where players make the world and very few quests
In my person opinion there is only one true sandbox game out. Second life. You can create anything you can think of (within the limits of the tech). There might be another game I haven't heard about that allows for that.
The rest of these games, MO, Eve, Earthrise, SWG, etc, are themepark Sandboxes. You can only create what the devs allowed you to create. You always create the same buildings, the same armor that looks no different, weapons that really do not vary.
Excellent article; especially for a topic that really does have such a low flashpoint among the varied and totaled MMO communities. Well done.
Point taken regarding all the FE comments. I'll admit I included it in the list based mainly on my beta memories, when it was a great deal more raw but also had a more sandboxy feel.
I played it again last year for a couple of months and you're right, the rails are far more visible than they used to be. I expect it's difficult to avoid leaning in the theme park direction if your players/testers tell you they can't figure out what the hell to do -- one lesson being, if you're aiming to make a sandbox, you need some usable and fun TOOLS and you do need to provide a set of goals, regardless how players choose to achieve them. (Build a city, defeat the evil Empire, kill your rivals, dominate the world market on foozles -- whatever.)
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek
and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
Many people seem to think that everyone else should like what they like, and if another person doesn't then that means something is wrong with the other person or themselves. What's true is, there are different flavors of ice cream for a reason - we can like different things. That's not only okay, in my book it's wonderful! The creative variety we have comes in large part because of that fact.
The conflict, for me, comes when I see elements added to the game I am playiing I don't like. In those cases I think it's appropriate for me to say I don't like it, but I should remember first that the game is the creation of a team of people that I wasn't part of, and that my preference is a preference, not a universal law (except when it is, in which case I need to know the difference
). One thing I'm absolutely for is the devs (and the rest of the creative team) creating their vision as purely as they can; getting feedback from the players in terms of mechanics is one thing, but adding elements you don't want to just to make players happy will eventually ruin the game.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
Nice column/feature. Make good games, not war.
I dislike lables....alot !!!
If I enjoy a game its good, if not I move on.
One of the labels ( or many lables) I think have gotten to silly rating is the FTP, freemium, PTW,PTP etc. JUst look at the game and you will know what is required instead of having to trust a label someone has put on it.
Does anyone realy think a game or any business for that matter can survive if its totaly free???? ( well, its not 'free' because you have to buy the box) Auuuuugggg !
It isn't a sandbox game in the end. I fell for that claim as well. It's really a task/quest hub MMO.
Darkfall has not chanced much in sense of holding hands or guide you but it have chanced alot towards grind and gave new players a a shortime protection agains pkers/gankers but thats only few hours.
So far is Darkfall for most part same as launch it just made some very annoying gameplay more pleseant like chopping/mining/fishing auto instead of clicking mouse thousend times.
Or gave normal metal mines also rare ore drops witch was very good improvement for solo and small clans who dont own clancity with rare mine.
And many other nice improvements added to darkfall that make game more pleseant to play like offline skill progress ease the pain of grinding skills and prolly less players will macro now.
But i fear future becouse i hope they wont go ezmode to get more players.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Good article, but unfortunately, it's not going to change anything.
I most agree with the quote about these sub-genres catering to different playstyles, not different people. Most people can enjoy multiple playstyles, though it would seem surprising sometimes. Playing EVE and LotRO is not a crime. Or, hell, even EVE and WoW.
Off-topic, cool last name.
Sandbox is a lot more than simply being able to level by grinding as I have seen written here. Sandbox is the freedom to play the game as you want to play it.
I will use Pre Cu / NGE SWG as an example. There were people in that game that did nothing all day other than entertain the other players in the taverns or heal them in the med centres; Nothing wrong with that at all, it's what they wanted to do and got enjoyment from the interaction with others that needed their services. Some spent all their time crafting and a few became famous on their servers for the high quality gear that their dedication had made possible. Again, nothing wrong with that; they had fun doing what they wanted to do. Some people were what you could call achievers and the game catered to them as well.
I mentioned the medics earlier. Well at times when I didn't feel much like dungeon crawls or questing I would go out into the wilds and hunt the herds that roamed across the grasslands ( or deserts depending which planet I ended up on ) to gather the meat / bones etc. that those medics needed to make their stims and whatnot. At the same time I would keep an eye out for some fine examples of the local wildlife so that I could take a DNA sample back to my lab later and hopefully bioengineer a kickass pet from it, or if not a non hostile addition to someones guildhouse.
theme parks do not give you this freedom. Sure you can hang around and dance all day but you will stay at level 1 and all the people you meet will either ignore you, flame you or laugh at you; and those that don't will simply move on to a higher level zone. You can't craft all day because many of the mats you need drop from the mobs that you are forced to go and kill. Someone could collect the mats for you of course but then where do you get the money to pay for them? You go out and kill stuff. No matter what you try in a theme park it will eventually push you back on the rails and give you a kick up the ass to get you moving along them.
Sandbox games were also in general more complicated than theme parks when it came to character advancment. They made you think about where to improve and what could be ignored. Sure it was possible to completely nerf your own toon by making bad choices but hey, that was half the fun. In a theme park everyone ends up the same. Ah well, that's the nostalgia fix done with for awhile
here is the easiest way to tell a sandbox from a a theme park:
theme parks attempt to simulate the story driven single player RPG experience in a multiplayer setting.
sandboxs attempts to simulate a virtual world.
If your game is spending more time trying to get you to follow a story line than it does trying to get you to develop your character, it''s a good chance that you got a theme park on your hands.
Conversely, no matter how much a theatrics and NPC dialog: if at the end of that big ass cut scene your character is still treated as nothing more than a cog in the machine, your probably playing a sandbox.
Just as an example: by this mentality I actually kinda consider Guild Wars a Sandbox because no matter how much your character is treated like the center of the universe, there is still always some greater event at play and for a goodly portion of even the story mode your expected to develop your character on your own, and PVP mode is about as sandbox as you can get.
The flip side example is FFXI: sure there is a story line and quests, but for the most part partaking of them is provides little to no guidance as far as progressing through the game. The core of FFXI is to farm/craft/sell your way to getting more money so that you can spruce up your house and better gear up your character so that you can better farm/craft/sell. I'd say that 90% of FFXI's gameplay revolves around the auction house economy. I'd call that pretty sandbox.
Sandbox and Themeparks are not types of games. They are merely the labels at opposite ends of the same scale.
i really like this definition
That was a purdy good read
When I'm on the beach, I like digging for lightening shards and finding shells and seaglass, and other "maybe" valuables. I like taking in the ocean air and tasting the salt on my lips as the foamy waves wash sand between my toes, and I feel the sun on my body making me sweat.
Yet, underneath I want to know exactly where to go to get these things so I can be done with them quickly so i can get to doing other things I wanna do also. I find myself trapped in always waiting or looking for an instant fix or gratification. My mind is in a hurry but the body can't keep up.
Sorry, Bleeped out there for a minute...
I dunno, yeah, as long as I can find a way to have fun it doesn't really matter which type of mmo it is.
They need to make it easier for the common dumb folk like me to make games. Then we'll see some real progress.
Anybody can create art, not everyone can create videogames.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
I'd like to point out that, as a predominately sandbox player, I found your article to be an interesting and conclusive read. I won't disagree that sandbox play is a state of mind, but the above quote scares the crap out of me (or it will when developers start using it as an example to stop making sandbox games entirely).
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Lets dig a little here. SWG was not hated (Pre-NGE) for its sandbox. It was hated 1) lack of bug fixes, 2) No quest guide in understandable form, 3) Interdependance of professions.
Players hated haveing to find a Entertainer and Medic to get fixed up after death. The decay treadmill also turned off players and limited what diverse appearances that were had. Jedi Grind also robbed the gaming culture of GCW or PVP endgame development. This being said, in no way sides me with the NGE change. I just wanted the game we had fixed. However, in looking back to Pre-CU, I see the forces that drove away players before the coming of WOW.
I think there will always be "player developers" that want to create sandbox MMOGs that give the players the freedom they felt they lacked in other games. There will always be talented people with creative visions, and others who can and will fund them.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
I dont think themeparks and sandboxes are comparable. It is like comparing an actual Themepark, like Disney World, to an Amazon Jungle. They are just too different to compare.
One focus on immersion and virtual world other on exciting rides.
One focus on the world where as the other focus on your character, like in a single player game.
So the only big thing they have in common is the fact that they are playable online on persistent servers.
As for why themeparks are so much popular it is quite obvious. First of all you have WoW and all greedy investors want a chunk of that pie. Secondly themeparks are easier both to develop and to play. It is much easier to add a playground with a bunch of rides than trying to create a virtual world or to find your own way in a virtual world.
So a good sandbox takes more money to develop and bring in less money so naturally there are quite alot fewer of them around. Because, like it or not, when something becomes mainstream it all becomes first and foremost about money.
My gaming blog
I am just loving your articles! I'm back-reading them because I hadn't read them before. You are definitely a gifted writer. I also enjoyed the comments following. Great ideas and lots of opinions! My style is sandbox. But since I can't find any good ones, I am drifting.....
So, what exactly is meant by a sandbox game??