Had alot of fun in DCU, but i knew when i bought it i would probably only be getting a game that would last a few months at most.
I saw the doom in this game coming early when the glitching was running rampant, everybody was glitching thier way threw raids and pvp that by the end of month one so many people were fully geared out with nothing to do.
and im sorry but you can only pvp so much on the same 4 maps before it just gets old.
the Raids were fun to do, but there was only 2 for ever, now they added 1 more. but even these you can only do once a week. and the rest of the time you just grind hard modes and duos, that gets old after day 2, same maps over and over and over and over.......
the Raids were fun to do, but there was only 2 for ever, now they added 1 more. but even these you can only do once a week. and the rest of the time you just grind hard modes and duos, that gets old after day 2, same maps over and over and over and over.......
too bad, the current players dont see it that way, at least the game could improve. Righ now, they see everything as a paradise or game utopia. Anything that is not right, they see it as normal in a new MMO.
the Raids were fun to do, but there was only 2 for ever, now they added 1 more. but even these you can only do once a week. and the rest of the time you just grind hard modes and duos, that gets old after day 2, same maps over and over and over and over.......
too bad, the current players dont see it that way, at least the game could improve. Righ now, they see everything as a paradise or game utopia. Anything that is not right, they see it as normal in a new MMO.
As a current player myself this isn't entirely fair and although, as with every mmo, there are blinkered fanbois who shout out over the equally blinkered haters those two groups are a tiny subset of the vast majority of us who know the volume of content is lacking atm. Its a new game, as with every other recent release it went retail too early, unlike every other recent release the core game is actually pretty fresh and fun so it warrants the extra effort needed to make it progress so there is plenty of pressure and suggestions being fired at the devs to expand content as rapidly as possible.
The one point I would suggest is hurting/compromising progress is SoE's own forum policing which is far too draconian/aggressive you don't get long to flesh out ideas.
Overall DCUO is a great starting point, but it has to evolve and develop quickly and it has to do this in the face of the lag SoE bring to the table.....but in all honesty I think given half a chance it is sufficiently good at the core, where it really matters, to win through.
of course not everyone is an xfire user but there's no reason to assume those with xfire are behaving differently than those without xfire.
It's not a good sign for DCUO at all.
Now it is down to around 33% of what it was at most, and falling...
Maybe people will then realise that this game was just some hot air which is now quickly dissipating. MMORPG columnists should note this as well because they have been praising it since release.
of course not everyone is an xfire user but there's no reason to assume those with xfire are behaving differently than those without xfire.
It's not a good sign for DCUO at all.
Now it is down to around 33% of what it was at most, and falling...
Maybe people will then realise that this game was just some hot air which is now quickly dissipating. MMORPG columnists should note this as well because they have been praising it since release.
I think you're missing the mark on this point quite a bit. This isn't a case of the game being poor or not worthy of praise, the problem is with the speed of which SOE patches and the execution of said patches.
The game was rife with exploits that were entirely gamebreaking from the first patch onward. Every attempt to fix the exploits were accompanied by painful nerfs or other imbalances. There is no fix all here, yet SOE released patches in a way that would make one believe that everything would be fixed upon the next patch.
This was a classic case of SOE killing the game themselves rather than the game not being worthy of fame it received. Replacing the fame is equal parts infamy now as players can't handle the exploiting or the misconception that someone is exploiting when they aren't. Its turned into a lot of finger pointing in the PvP and Raid arenas, and really kills the enjoyment for a lot of players.
DCUO didn't have to be a fad ... I'll come back to it when the updates entice me to do so, but that likely won't be for another few months.
Have you played the game? Heres the deal, and most people that are not fanbois will agree. The game was great for what content was there. PvP mechanics and gameplay were bugged and lackluster from the beginning, but there was enough content for a casual gamer to have a tremendous amount of fun for about 2-4 weeks. After tha point, the game was uterlly useless.
They claimed this game was an "mmorpg" but in fact it was not. It lacked the 'depth' as most threads quickly found to be considered an mmorpg. It should have been a console game with no subscription and thats that.
Thus most people played the game like a console game. They played through the story, completed some achievements, played a little bit of PvP, and then set the game down to never look at it again.
Again, it really has nothing to do with the way MMORPG.com scores their games, they actually did a great job here. There are games out there with better scores on other sites with much less longevity, and games with more longevity with worse scores.
If you want to know why people left I've given my opinion many times on it, and seeing as how I've actually been playing the game and have been part of the DCUO community and pretty active on the boards it has more to do with the way SOE handled the game then any lack of content or "non-mmorpg" features.
The chat and UI really were the minor issues here for those that were interested in the game. With each new patch SOE essentially shot themselves in the foot. They were not prepared, and sure, more development time would have been key here, but what would have been more important would be to test their patches more thoroughly before putting them live. The game was severely mishandled, and subs bled quickly when broken mechanics became the norm instead of being a rarity. Even now there are exploits, some very early missions that are broken, some underlying mechanical issues with certain power sets.... it wasn't this way at the time of the review, it got progressively worse.
of course not everyone is an xfire user but there's no reason to assume those with xfire are behaving differently than those without xfire.
It's not a good sign for DCUO at all.
Now it is down to around 33% of what it was at most, and falling...
Maybe people will then realise that this game was just some hot air which is now quickly dissipating. MMORPG columnists should note this as well because they have been praising it since release.
I think you're missing the mark on this point quite a bit. This isn't a case of the game being poor or not worthy of praise, the problem is with the speed of which SOE patches and the execution of said patches.
The game was rife with exploits that were entirely gamebreaking from the first patch onward. Every attempt to fix the exploits were accompanied by painful nerfs or other imbalances. There is no fix all here, yet SOE released patches in a way that would make one believe that everything would be fixed upon the next patch.
This was a classic case of SOE killing the game themselves rather than the game not being worthy of fame it received. Replacing the fame is equal parts infamy now as players can't handle the exploiting or the misconception that someone is exploiting when they aren't. Its turned into a lot of finger pointing in the PvP and Raid arenas, and really kills the enjoyment for a lot of players.
DCUO didn't have to be a fad ... I'll come back to it when the updates entice me to do so, but that likely won't be for another few months.
Exploits are secondary, the main reason for leaving is because the paper thin content that is available. I mean even casual people will hit the cap within two weeks and then have to spend the rest of their time doing end-game missions and PvP which quickly becomes boring after another couple of weeks. So now, about a couple of months after release the population is dropping like a rock.
Have you played the game? Heres the deal, and most people that are not fanbois will agree. The game was great for what content was there. PvP mechanics and gameplay were bugged and lackluster from the beginning, but there was enough content for a casual gamer to have a tremendous amount of fun for about 2-4 weeks. After tha point, the game was uterlly useless.
They claimed this game was an "mmorpg" but in fact it was not. It lacked the 'depth' as most threads quickly found to be considered an mmorpg. It should have been a console game with no subscription and thats that.
Thus most people played the game like a console game. They played through the story, completed some achievements, played a little bit of PvP, and then set the game down to never look at it again.
That's exactly my point. The MMORPG staff reviewed the game as if it was a console game, not as an MMO with depth and longevity. I pointed this out when the final review came in that the review was unacceptable as an MMO game because it failed to discuss the lack of content, chat, UI as very major drawbacks to making it an "MMO" instead of a single-player console game. Since this website is called "MMORPG", I would have assumed the staff would review the game as an MMO, not as a console game. Unfortunately, they decided in their wisdom to just give it a great review because it was a fun console game. That is what I didn't understand and complained when I saw the review. If this was a 1-time purchase with no subscription fee, then fine. However, there is no way they can justify a monthly fee because it simply isn't "MMO" enough in my opinion.
Generally speaking, console games tend to have more action-oriented and more entertaining gameplay, but you can burn through them rather quickly. MMO games generally sacrafice some of that for extensive content and long-term playability. Clearly the ideal is that you can get both, but DCUO isn't there. This is just a console game that at the end they decided to try to get people to pay a monthly fee. Seeing the population decline dramatically therefore should have been no surprise, despite the glowing reviews from this website.
Why would anyone be surprised that a console game billed as a MMO would tank? A MMO designed to work on a console is destined to be a failure on the PC.
of course not everyone is an xfire user but there's no reason to assume those with xfire are behaving differently than those without xfire.
It's not a good sign for DCUO at all.
Now it is down to around 33% of what it was at most, and falling...
Maybe people will then realise that this game was just some hot air which is now quickly dissipating. MMORPG columnists should note this as well because they have been praising it since release.
I think you're missing the mark on this point quite a bit. This isn't a case of the game being poor or not worthy of praise, the problem is with the speed of which SOE patches and the execution of said patches.
The game was rife with exploits that were entirely gamebreaking from the first patch onward. Every attempt to fix the exploits were accompanied by painful nerfs or other imbalances. There is no fix all here, yet SOE released patches in a way that would make one believe that everything would be fixed upon the next patch.
This was a classic case of SOE killing the game themselves rather than the game not being worthy of fame it received. Replacing the fame is equal parts infamy now as players can't handle the exploiting or the misconception that someone is exploiting when they aren't. Its turned into a lot of finger pointing in the PvP and Raid arenas, and really kills the enjoyment for a lot of players.
DCUO didn't have to be a fad ... I'll come back to it when the updates entice me to do so, but that likely won't be for another few months.
Exploits are secondary, the main reason for leaving is because the paper thin content that is available. I mean even casual people will hit the cap within two weeks and then have to spend the rest of their time doing end-game missions and PvP which quickly becomes boring after another couple of weeks. So now, about a couple of months after release the population is dropping like a rock.
No, they aren't secondary. It wasn't the content, it was the problem with the end game. This game revolved much around PvP, and the PvP servers were large enough to make the game a success on that alone. Some PvE servers were heavy on PvP as well like VnV. The problem was simply the exploits. Raiding groups are still in game, and the most populates servers are still PvP servers, only because at this point the PvP is in a playable state not because its completely fixed.
You'd have to be in-game and get the feel of what people are saying about it to know what I'm talking about, and most of you are not. In fact I don't think you even bought or played the game at all, much less subbed to it.
As Danki had said... they didn't review the game as an MMO. They even went so far as to be defensive about it. Others went so far as to say, "so it doesn't have X, Y, and Z. Why do people insist that every MMO have these things?" It's all right there in the forum for the review.
And I tried to explain it to anyone that would listen, "If it doesn't have X, Y, and Z, then it had better have SOMETHING that takes the place of those things. And DCUO doesn't have anything in its place." So once you've had your fill of button mashing combos(which sure, is a good amount of fun for a while), there's little reason to stay subbed.
People still toted the promise from the devs that huge monthly content updates were forthcoming. But all you need is the simplest logic to understand that it won't be the case. They've been developing the game for years, and the end result is about 30 hours of gameplay. How can anyone believe that they'll now be putting out hours and hours of content EVERY MONTH? The math just doesn't add up.
And the first major update was clear evidence. They will be putting out content at about the same pace as any other MMO, if that.
I understand the dilemma of the average MMO reviewer. You need to get a review out fairly soon after release, so the longevity of an MMO from your personal experience is difficult to determine. But with DCUO... it just doesn't get any clearer than that. That DCUO, for what little it offers, is a fairly decent game, it in no way justifies a monthly subsciption. And I don't just point my finger and MMORPG.com for downplaying this... nearly EVERY reviewer chose willful ignorance over speculation based on clear evidence.
To be honest, though, I don't think they designed DCUO to be a sub game. I think they've more than likely designed it to be a microtransaction F2P model. But hey, with a strong IP, why not milk some box and sub money off the DC fans? Then, once the pop tanks, bring in F2P.
The mmorpg review was and is valid, it is an impression at the time it was taken and as a response of the indiviual undertaking it....as all reviews are. This ignorant banter than somehow subsequent popularity proves one thing or another is conceited in the extreme....were the Spice Girls the greatest artistic musicians of the 90's? Is WoW not only the greatest mmo of all time but also the greatest game of all time? Do innovation and variety actually have any value without success? Is originality actually applauded once it ceases to be original?
All the mainstream DCUO reviews pointed to the sheer fun involved in playing, they highlighted those staple mmo features it lacked or did poorly but the overall score was based on the entertainment value the game gave then....and tbh still gives. If you want a timesump for a timsumps sake actually DCUO does exactly what every other mmo does - you can grind repetitive missions all but indefinitely - the only difference in DCUO is that its optional and the initial run at least is actually enjoyable.
For me the choice is simple, I'd rather play a game that is fun to play by choice than the usual mmo ploy of one that drags me on an endless, wholly redundant journey rarely if ever wandering into enjoyable territory.
DCUO isn't a traditional mmorpg, if you need a fix for that addiction you already have more options than you could ever need......DCUO is actually that rarest of beast's a genuine alternative.
No, they aren't secondary. It wasn't the content, it was the problem with the end game. This game revolved much around PvP, and the PvP servers were large enough to make the game a success on that alone. Some PvE servers were heavy on PvP as well like VnV. The problem was simply the exploits. Raiding groups are still in game, and the most populates servers are still PvP servers, only because at this point the PvP is in a playable state not because its completely fixed.
You'd have to be in-game and get the feel of what people are saying about it to know what I'm talking about, and most of you are not. In fact I don't think you even bought or played the game at all, much less subbed to it.
While I think your point about the exploits driving players away is accurate, I don't think it is the only reason. Soe could fix the exploits and plenty of players would still be leaving. For YOU the games revolves around PvP and the exploits are the gamebreaker, but that doesn't mean it is the same for everyone else.
The lack of content IS a problem for some people. Anyone can read the many complaints about it on the official forums right now. PC and PS3 side. Just like people were complaining about it in beta, saying that the game didn't have enough content to justify a subscription fee. We debated that point then and here it is again flying full mast.
If you ask 10 different people why they quit DCU you will get a variety of reasons. Some will say exploits, lack of content, lack of customization, lack of variety, lack of features, lack of fixes, lack of community, lack of quality and any number of other reasons. Many will cite several reasons. Some the same as others and some different. There are just to many problems to point at one specific thing and say "that is the reason people are leaving".
DCU is suffereing, because no matter what aspect of the game you look at there is a problem that needs fixing. It isn't that soe is to slow at fixing them (which they are), but that is a result of the game needing so much work post release that it would be impossible for anyone to release enough fixes fast enough to satisfy players. There is no possible way to fix that much, so the only possible outcome is that soe looks like they are not resolving issues fast enough. The fact that they screwed it up is unrelated to the core problem and just one more thing gone wrong. The root of the problem has always been the condition of the game.
While I think your point about the exploits driving players away is accurate, I don't think it is the only reason. Soe could fix the exploits and plenty of players would still be leaving. For YOU the games revolves around PvP and the exploits are the gamebreaker, but that doesn't mean it is the same for everyone else.
The lack of content IS a problem for some people. Anyone can read the many complaints about it on the official forums right now. PC and PS3 side. Just like people were complaining about it in beta, saying that the game didn't have enough content to justify a subscription fee. We debated that point then and here it is again flying full mast.
If you ask 10 different people why they quit DCU you will get a variety of reasons. Some will say exploits, lack of content, lack of customization, lack of variety, lack of features, lack of fixes, lack of community, lack of quality and any number of other reasons. Many will cite several reasons. Some the same as others and some different. There are just to many problems to point at one specific thing and say "that is the reason people are leaving".
DCU is suffereing, because no matter what aspect of the game you look at there is a problem that needs fixing. It isn't that soe is to slow at fixing them (which they are), but that is a result of the game needing so much work post release that it would be impossible for anyone to release enough fixes fast enough to satisfy players. There is no possible way to fix that much, so the only possible outcome is that soe looks like they are not resolving issues fast enough. The fact that they screwed it up is unrelated to the core problem and just one more thing gone wrong. The root of the problem has always been the condition of the game.
There are two things you have to look at here, 1 is the claim that the MMORPG review wasn't valid because they didn't take it as an MMORPG. This is a flawed argument, as a game is a game, and at the time of the review, the game was fun and had a lasting appeal to it based on what we all were playing. The game received some pretty high acclaim in comparison to other MMORPGs, and it deserved that acclaim. Other reviews were much more critical because the game wasn't the traditional MMORPG and thats okay.
The other thing is the problems the game had, or currently has. The most damaging thing to the game wasn't the content. Sure you can get to max level in a few days, casual players could in a weeks time, but the game was meant to be played at max level. I said it before and I'll say it again, they didn't focus their longevity on the feats like they should have originally.
That was a design flaw in my opinion, but the steepest drop of players came when the expoits became rampant. Thats not supposition, thats exactly what happened.
You have two types of players, those that are playing the game to test it out, try the game, and move on which is where you'll see the "content" problems and then you have your hardcore fanbase - the DC fans, the action game fans, the superhero genre fans, the action based combat fans --- this is the recurring revenue for SOE because these are the people that feel the game was geared towards what they like and their playstyle.
The first type of person will always leave once the content is up, they do it in every game. They did it in DCUO, AoC, and they'll do it in RIFT too.
The second type of person will hang around and continue playing.... people like myself who..... who found a particular niche in the game that they could continuosly enjoy and sub for. We exists, and many of us have stayed with the game even pre-launch. We are willing to put up with the game and its issues as long as there is merit to the systems we find enjoyable.
This is where the PvP servers come into play, and the majority of the population is on them as even now we get between medium and high on D&G and up to medium on PE... but the population is waning. Even weeks after launch we were getting queue times on PvP servers, but with each patch you've seen a steep decline in players, not due to a change in content, in fact they've added MORE content... they are constantly breaking what their core audience is playing for.
I can tell you why my league of over 50 people has dwindled down to less than 10 playing per day, and it isn't the lack of content, most of them knew about the feat system, and we all worked together to complete them. It doesn't matter what server you're on, even at the best of times you see the same 5 - 10 people in arena queues and half of them will be using an exploit or a FOTM build. Mechanically the combat system has an underlying problem with attacks not even registering and then you have other hacks where attacks register at three times the rate but don't show in the combat log at all.
Nobody wants to queue and everyone is accusing everyone else of hacking, cheating, or exploiting and thats the real killer here, more so than the actual exploits. Nobody knows, and the die hard players either adopt hacks or FOTM builds or they get frustrated and stop playing. I'm one that is frustrated and I've unsubbed, but had they been able to reliably fix these issues I can attest that they would have had a much larger amount at least in my league had these issues never occured.
Again, I am not disputing your experiences, but I don't think your experience is the summary of everyones experience or that you are the core audience soe was trying to attract.
This game tried to cater to a wide variety of gameplay styles for a reason. If it only wanted hardcore pvp players, then there wouldn't be more pve servers than pvp servers.
Yes people are leaving, because the pvp is broken and can be unplayable, but that doesn't mean it is the only problem the game has or the main reason people are leaving.
There are people who have casually consumed all the games content and find little reason to log on. This was stated over and over and over in beta and here it is again. Even the new content added was only a few hours worth of gameplay to most. Go read the forums and you will see countless people saying the game needs more content and currently lacks things to do.
I know you think the feat system is awesome, but maybe people are not raving about it for a reason? Forcing people to repeat the same limited amount of content to get character points is pretty damn shallow.
In the end DCU is a shallow game filled with problems from end to end. It isn't a big surprise that the every type of server is suffering and players are already migrating to the few decent pop servers left.
Again, I am not disputing your experiences, but I don't think your experience is the summary of everyones experience or that you are the core audience soe was trying to attract.
This game tried to cater to a wide variety of gameplay styles for a reason. If it only wanted hardcore pvp players, then there wouldn't be more pve servers than pvp servers.
Yes people are leaving, because the pvp is broken and can be unplayable, but that doesn't mean it is the only problem the game has or the main reason people are leaving.
There are people who have casually consumed all the games content and find little reason to log on. This was stated over and over and over in beta and here it is again. Even the new content added was only a few hours worth of gameplay to most. Go read the forums and you will see countless people saying the game needs more content and currently lacks things to do.
I know you think the feat system is awesome, but maybe people are not raving about it for a reason? Forcing people to repeat the same limited amount of content to get character points is pretty damn shallow.
In the end DCU is a shallow game filled with problems from end to end. It isn't a big surprise that the every type of server is suffering and players are already migrating to the few decent pop servers left.
And crafting the same items over and over and over isn't shallow? Running the same raids in other games over and over again is okay, but here it isn't? Gear grind works for WoW but as soon as they put it in DCUO suddenly its boring and repetitive? The only people that seem to be left are those that actually knew about the feat system, it wasn't showcased at all and more than half of the people that played through to max level likely had no idea what these feats did for their character.
Again, you have people who are willing to play the game continuously who enjoy the end game, are willing to continue playing it and rehashing the raids and such to get all of the feats.. and these players aren't the casual players, this is the core base of DCUO. "Shallow" content means very little if you really stop to think that people are maxing out characters in RIFT in the same time people are maxing out characters in DCUO.
More content would not have saved the game from this fate, that is a fact. They could have forced players to play for a month before reaching max level, STILL 2 months down the line with these exploits and issues we would have been in the same boat. Being one of the few that absolutely does not exploit, I've been called an exploiter more times than I can count, and I'm sure I've even been reported a few times..... the entire system regardless of what server you're on (pvp or pve) has become volatile.
They could release a years worth of content tomorrow and if the underlying mechanics with attacks missing (which effects PVE too -- in great detriment to the playability of it) and the exploits are rampant in PvP, its highly unlikely people would be staying to play through it all.
The game deserved its acclaim for its achievements, but SOE is SOE... they just can't get their act together and squash the most damaging bugs. Had the exploits never existed, we would be having a very different conversation here, I have absolutely no doubt in that.
And crafting the same items over and over and over isn't shallow? Running the same raids in other games over and over again is okay, but here it isn't? Gear grind works for WoW but as soon as they put it in DCUO suddenly its boring and repetitive? The only people that seem to be left are those that actually knew about the feat system, it wasn't showcased at all and more than half of the people that played through to max level likely had no idea what these feats did for their character.
Again, you have people who are willing to play the game continuously who enjoy the end game, are willing to continue playing it and rehashing the raids and such to get all of the feats.. and these players aren't the casual players, this is the core base of DCUO. "Shallow" content means very little if you really stop to think that people are maxing out characters in RIFT in the same time people are maxing out characters in DCUO.
More content would not have saved the game from this fate, that is a fact. They could have forced players to play for a month before reaching max level, STILL 2 months down the line with these exploits and issues we would have been in the same boat. Being one of the few that absolutely does not exploit, I've been called an exploiter more times than I can count, and I'm sure I've even been reported a few times..... the entire system regardless of what server you're on (pvp or pve) has become volatile.
They could release a years worth of content tomorrow and if the underlying mechanics with attacks missing (which effects PVE too -- in great detriment to the playability of it) and the exploits are rampant in PvP, its highly unlikely people would be staying to play through it all.
The game deserved its acclaim for its achievements, but SOE is SOE... they just can't get their act together and squash the most damaging bugs. Had the exploits never existed, we would be having a very different conversation here, I have absolutely no doubt in that.
I'm judging DCU on what it has to offer, not trying to downplay it by saying other games have similar feature X or Y. This isn't about crafting or features in other games. DCU is what it is on its own merits and pointing out flaws in another game will not make DCU play better.
As for levels, it doesn't matter how long it takes to reach level cap, because that isn't the measure of a games content. 3 days or 30 days to reach max level doesn't matter, because a level is just a number. What matters is how quickly people have exhausted all the games content and that can be done in DCU in just a few weeks at a CASUAL pace. That is a very important distinction. A characters level has jack shit to do with the overall amount of content in a game.
Why bring up other games? If Rift closed down right now would any of the problems in DCU improve? Would there suddenly be more things for players to engage in?
Remember when you said it would take casual far long than it took you to get to high level encounters or tiered armor pieces? How you were so far ahead of the curve and DCU was a difficult game with all sorts of logevity and plentiful content? Well people are pugging all 3 raid in a few hours each reset. That is the summary of why the game is shallow
Just look at how quickly it breaks down into a game that depends on daily quests and regrinding the same content for tokens. It really doesn't do anything beyond that. It rushed players through the limited content and throws them into a grind.
There is nothing wrong with having gear grinds, token points or whatever, but DCU never really goes beyond that. It gives a few hours worth of decent storyline quest and then demands players repeat the same content for everything else in the game. The speed and ease at which the game runs out of variety is amazingly.
Regardless of what other games do, DCU on its own is shallow and runs out of steam in as short as a few weeks. It is hard to look at the servers and not see that.
I'm judging DCU on what it has to offer, not trying to downplay it by saying other games have similar feature X or Y. This isn't about crafting or features in other games. DCU is what it is on its own merits and pointing out flaws in another game will not make DCU play better.
As for levels, it doesn't matter how long it takes to reach level cap, because that isn't the measure of a games content. 3 days or 30 days to reach max level doesn't matter, because a level is just a number. What matters is how quickly people have exhausted all the games content and that can be done in DCU in just a few weeks at a CASUAL pace. That is a very important distinction. A characters level has jack shit to do with the overall amount of content in a game.
Why bring up other games? If Rift closed down right now would any of the problems in DCU improve? Would there suddenly be more things for players to engage in?
Remember when you said it would take casual far long than it took you to get to high level encounters or tiered armor pieces? How you were so far ahead of the curve and DCU was a difficult game with all sorts of logevity and plentiful content? Well people are pugging all 3 raid in a few hours each reset. That is the summary of why the game is shallow
Just look at how quickly it breaks down into a game that depends on daily quests and regrinding the same content for tokens. It really doesn't do anything beyond that. It rushed players through the limited content and throws them into a grind.
There is nothing wrong with having gear grinds, token points or whatever, but DCU never really goes beyond that. It gives a few hours worth of decent storyline quest and then demands players repeat the same content for everything else in the game. The speed and ease at which the game runs out of variety is amazingly.
Regardless of what other games do, DCU on its own is shallow and runs out of steam in as short as a few weeks. It is hard to look at the servers and not see that.
You always say this, but your thinking is flawed. The game has enough content to last multiple months for any player willing to do all of its content and achieve the maximum stature of their character. This is the point of the game appealing to a certain demographic. Those that like the game won't just pick up and leave when they've only completed half the content.
Whether people choose to see all of the content or try to achieve the feats and make the most of their character is another matter. All games are repetitive, holding DCUO up to itself makes sense topically, but when you get down to it you miss the point entirely on how this game performs. In the world of DCUO, if you have nothing to compare it to, then this is the first and only MMO, and being as such the world isn't small, raid inspired gear grind is innovative, and a widespread community to interact with is new and exciting. The game as a whole has more than enough to do for those interested in doing it.
Finding something to do is not the problem. Adding 80 hours more of content and a crafting system won't fix the problem or the subscription issues, thats a fact. The problems lie in the bugs in the mechanics.
You say its that the game was shallow that it ran out of steam. You're wrong. It was SOEs inability to patch the game and provide what it stated in a reasonable amount of time.
A good indicator would be the PS3 servers in comparison to the PC.... how populated are the PS3 servers? Exploits weren't as prevalent on those, and we still have high populations on PS3 servers regularly. Is that to mean that PS3 players can stand the "shallowness" of the game, or that maybe there is something to the major exploit problems on the PC version.
The PS3 will likely decline in time, and there are still exploits, but it doesn't hit them nearly as hard, the content is the same for both games... yet one is drastically less populated than the other. You could make an argument about the different kinds of players, or theres a larger population of PS3 to PC players.... but in truth, that doesn't change the game at all. If the game is boring for one group it would be for both, but it doesn't rely on content, it relies on SOEs ability to get their act together and fix the real underlying issues within the PC version.
And crafting the same items over and over and over isn't shallow? Running the same raids in other games over and over again is okay, but here it isn't? Gear grind works for WoW but as soon as they put it in DCUO suddenly its boring and repetitive? The only people that seem to be left are those that actually knew about the feat system, it wasn't showcased at all and more than half of the people that played through to max level likely had no idea what these feats did for their character.
I think it's a mistake to distill it out into such a simple X = Y comparison.
Particularly regarding crafting. People craft for a number of different reasons. To make money, for guildies, for alts, for themselves...
One thing we both probably agree on, is that they don't do it for the sheer joy of clicking the "create all" button.
So why DO players do it?
Because players feel some commitment to the game. If you're making stuff, you're making it with the idea that you will consume the items in some way at a later time.
Same with raiding. You raid for the uberlootz with the idea that you want your character to be tough as nails; for PvP, for the next expansion, for whatever. But it's not only about the achievement, it's about appealing to our sense of "preparing for the future". This is why you see so many rages over xpacs rewarding greens that are more powerful than their raid gear. But that's for another topic.
Different levels of gameplay... casual, social, non-combat, downtime activities create and maintain an emotional investment to a game. If you can, and are willing to spend hours and hours doing things that may or may not include combat, you are much more "into" the game, especially when "content" runs out. Because that kind of content is more open ended. You are not prevented from crafting items once you've mastered the trade; and in many cases, you're rewarded with better items.
Maybe I'm just getting too wordy... I think of it like this:
DCUO is like that girl that, aside from sex, you feel no urge to spend time with.
A good, solid MMO is that girl, that you like to talk to, hang out in the park with, go car shopping with, watch even a "meh" movie with. And also have sex with.
One, you could easily replace with a hooker. But the other? You want to keep them around for as long as you like to do those things with them.
DCUO requires no emotional investment, nor does it offer you the opportunity to build it, so people are just "getting off" and moving on. Even if DCUO worked out all its bugs tomorrow, people will still lack ways to invest themselves into the game. And thus, it will be an easy girl to quit.
And crafting the same items over and over and over isn't shallow? Running the same raids in other games over and over again is okay, but here it isn't? Gear grind works for WoW but as soon as they put it in DCUO suddenly its boring and repetitive? The only people that seem to be left are those that actually knew about the feat system, it wasn't showcased at all and more than half of the people that played through to max level likely had no idea what these feats did for their character.
I think it's a mistake to distill it out into such a simple X = Y comparison.
Particularly regarding crafting. People craft for a number of different reasons. To make money, for guildies, for alts, for themselves...
One thing we both probably agree on, is that they don't do it for the sheer joy of clicking the "create all" button.
So why DO players do it?
Because players feel some commitment to the game. If you're making stuff, you're making it with the idea that you will consume the items in some way at a later time.
Same with raiding. You raid for the uberlootz with the idea that you want your character to be tough as nails; for PvP, for the next expansion, for whatever. But it's not only about the achievement, it's about appealing to our sense of "preparing for the future". This is why you see so many rages over xpacs rewarding greens that are more powerful than their raid gear. But that's for another topic.
Different levels of gameplay... casual, social, non-combat, downtime activities create and maintain an emotional investment to a game. If you can, and are willing to spend hours and hours doing things that may or may not include combat, you are much more "into" the game, especially when "content" runs out. Because that kind of content is more open ended. You are not prevented from crafting items once you've mastered the trade; and in many cases, you're rewarded with better items.
Maybe I'm just getting too wordy... I think of it like this:
DCUO is like that girl that, aside from sex, you feel no urge to spend time with.
A good, solid MMO is that girl, that you like to talk to, hang out in the park with, go car shopping with, watch even a "meh" movie with. And also have sex with.
One, you could easily replace with a hooker. But the other? You want to keep them around for as long as you like to do those things with them.
DCUO requires no emotional investment, nor does it offer you the opportunity to build it, so people are just "getting off" and moving on. Even if DCUO worked out all its bugs tomorrow, people will still lack ways to invest themselves into the game. And thus, it will be an easy girl to quit.
Some people may play games for some kind of emotional investment, I've played games for decades and don't feel it necessary to have an emotional investment to continue playing something as long as its fun.
Not everything has to be impactful, and crafting in any game doesn't necessarily make me feel like I'm impacting anything more or less than if I was a combat only character. Fallen earth is a good example of this, where I was very active in my clan, crafted weapons, and mounts for them, and was a big part of the social network, but in the end, when the game became stale and no longer fun for me I moved on, just like the others in my group.
Games are meant as entertainment, and you only bring out of it the enjoyment you can get from it. Downtime activities don't provide that in every game, in fact, they don't provide that in most games. Think of all the recent games that have done poorly with these kind of downtime activities. Think of all the very one-note games like Halo that have made many multi-million dollar purchases, have very strong followings, and yet, provide little more than a space age shooter. People pay to play halo monthly (via xbox live) and it provides much less in the way of content and longevity.
Simple comparisons are relevant here as they are in roughly the same genre. This game has an offering of different activiites and achievements, and at one time these were even strong enough to have kept me for an undetermined amount of time until the next game launch that I was interested in. Unfortunately due to the way development was handled, it was cut extremely short.
Some design changes could have helped in that, most notably more translucency in the extra features the game offers that would have kept players coming back for those "other things" the game offered that players never caught on to. Mostly it is the bug fixes which SOE just seems to move too slowly or not react on at all similar to how SWG went for many multiple years changing and reiterating without ever fixing the underlying problems.
Here the problems were much more prevalent. There was room for players to get attached and grow, but when you have developers working against their players, and a company that makes it tough for those developers to support the game with restrictions and what have you on patch schedules... its a really daunting task for them, and a frustrating experience for us.
You keep saying the game has enough content to last multiple months, but there are tons of players who are leaving citing lack of content as the reason. I know that flies in opposition to your personal experiences, but you can't blame my thinking as being flawed for something that can be witnessed in many other people right now.
Again, recall back to the beta when people were practially chanting "Is this all there is to the game" and you were saying the same thing about DCU offering many months worth of content? Well here we are not even 2 months later and servers are dying and people are complaining about lack of content. The message about DCU lacking content has been pretty widely spoken.
Maybe people have not completed every single feat or the entire suit of T2 armor, but that doesn't mean they have not experienced the content that gives those rewards. Feats are not content as you are painting them up to be. Doing the same mission, then do it left handed, then do it hoping on one leg, then with one eye closed.... It is all still the same mission that players have done any number of times already. You are trying to make that sound like there are tons of different things to do that will keep players engaged for months, when the subset of actual content is very shallow. At the end of a few weeks people can easily experience almost everything the game has to offer and the only avanue left is to repeat it in quirky ways.
I feel confident that the game has declined so rapidly for more than one reason. Again, go read the forums to hear the varied number of reasons players are listing.
As for the PS3 servers doing "bettter", because they are not as exposed to the exploits....
And crafting the same items over and over and over isn't shallow? Running the same raids in other games over and over again is okay, but here it isn't? Gear grind works for WoW but as soon as they put it in DCUO suddenly its boring and repetitive? The only people that seem to be left are those that actually knew about the feat system, it wasn't showcased at all and more than half of the people that played through to max level likely had no idea what these feats did for their character.
I think it's a mistake to distill it out into such a simple X = Y comparison.
Particularly regarding crafting. People craft for a number of different reasons. To make money, for guildies, for alts, for themselves...
One thing we both probably agree on, is that they don't do it for the sheer joy of clicking the "create all" button.
So why DO players do it?
Because players feel some commitment to the game. If you're making stuff, you're making it with the idea that you will consume the items in some way at a later time.
Same with raiding. You raid for the uberlootz with the idea that you want your character to be tough as nails; for PvP, for the next expansion, for whatever. But it's not only about the achievement, it's about appealing to our sense of "preparing for the future". This is why you see so many rages over xpacs rewarding greens that are more powerful than their raid gear. But that's for another topic.
Different levels of gameplay... casual, social, non-combat, downtime activities create and maintain an emotional investment to a game. If you can, and are willing to spend hours and hours doing things that may or may not include combat, you are much more "into" the game, especially when "content" runs out. Because that kind of content is more open ended. You are not prevented from crafting items once you've mastered the trade; and in many cases, you're rewarded with better items.
Maybe I'm just getting too wordy... I think of it like this:
DCUO is like that girl that, aside from sex, you feel no urge to spend time with.
A good, solid MMO is that girl, that you like to talk to, hang out in the park with, go car shopping with, watch even a "meh" movie with. And also have sex with.
One, you could easily replace with a hooker. But the other? You want to keep them around for as long as you like to do those things with them.
DCUO requires no emotional investment, nor does it offer you the opportunity to build it, so people are just "getting off" and moving on. Even if DCUO worked out all its bugs tomorrow, people will still lack ways to invest themselves into the game. And thus, it will be an easy girl to quit.
You've made an excellent analogy there.
I also agree with Daffid011 - to a person primarily interested in PvP, the many exploits can be seen as the only reason people are leaving. But, it's more than that - people really ARE leaving for a variety of reasons, not just exploits.
The combat system in the game is definitely different. But, in my opinion, it takes a lot more that just a combat system to keep people playing, and paying, long-term for an MMO.
I think a lot of people were so dazzled by the newness of the combat system, that it blinded them to how weak the rest of the game is as an MMO.
As Robsolf infers, DCUO feels more like an action-combat based lobby game, and not an MMO into which players invest themselves or commit to. It is completely lacking both the amount and variety of content and systems needed to engender such committment to a game.
You keep saying the game has enough content to last multiple months, but there are tons of players who are leaving citing lack of content as the reason. I know that flies in opposition to your personal experiences, but you can't blame my thinking as being flawed for something that can be witnessed in many other people right now.
Again, recall back to the beta when people were practially chanting "Is this all there is to the game" and you were saying the same thing about DCU offering many months worth of content? Well here we are not even 2 months later and servers are dying and people are complaining about lack of content. The message about DCU lacking content has been pretty widely spoken.
Maybe people have not completed every single feat or the entire suit of T2 armor, but that doesn't mean they have not experienced the content that gives those rewards. Feats are not content as you are painting them up to be. Doing the same mission, then do it left handed, then do it hoping on one leg, then with one eye closed.... It is all still the same mission that players have done any number of times already. You are trying to make that sound like there are tons of different things to do that will keep players engaged for months, when the subset of actual content is very shallow. At the end of a few weeks people can easily experience almost everything the game has to offer and the only avanue left is to repeat it in quirky ways.
I feel confident that the game has declined so rapidly for more than one reason. Again, go read the forums to hear the varied number of reasons players are listing.
And where are these people complaining about lack of content? Here? On the official forums? For every one complaint about content there are 3 complaints about exploits or bugs. Again, the content has stayed the same between the two versions of the game, the PS3 and the PC... yet one side is much more heavily populated than the other... yet the content is still the same. "Lack" of content is a minor issue here. I'm on the DCUO forums every day, I know what complaints are out there.
Everyone wants more content, but the main reason people are leaving NOW are the bugs. To say some people are going to leave from lack of content is like saying some people will quit their job at walmart, its going to happen, MMOs have a "high turnover rate" people will come in, do the content and leave, just like in other MMOs. Those that would normally stay, aren't staying, and its not due to content, its due to bugs... just reading the first page in general on the DCUO forums will show you plenty of instances of that.
Actually playing in game and talking to some of the players would yield the same results. I play on D&G, VnV and PE. Most of those leaving that I've spoken with have done so because of exploits... those that have left already? Perhaps content, perhaps something else entirely.
::edit::
The links don't really mean too much here, if you log on to the PS3 version you can see the server population for a number of servers are all on medium to high. On PC you see all but 1 server on low.
You have one post talking about doing a weekly raid, and wanting them to add more.
You have on talking about merging EU and US servers
You do have some exploits on the PS3, but my point still stands, their servers are much more populated than the PC ones.
On the flip side the PS3 has its own set of problems that are just gamebreaking as exploits. The fact that players over there are already requesting servers mergers says all that needs to be said. Low/med/high doesn't matter if players are coming to the same conclusion on the PS3 as the PC.
Again, I'm not dismissing your personal experience that exploits are the major reason you and your associates have left. That doesn't mean there are not plenty of other reasons people have left including lack of content. People you may not talk to, because like you said, you are way ahead of the curve and run with a pretty hardcore crowd.
Maybe it is 3:1 like you think it is, maybe it is 100:1 against your opinion since upwards of 80% of the playerbase has already left. Who really knows why they all left, but there are plenty of common complaints listed the include bugs/exploits, but are most certainly not just limited to those things.
Somehow I don't think players will flock back to the game when the bugs get fixed.
Comments
Had alot of fun in DCU, but i knew when i bought it i would probably only be getting a game that would last a few months at most.
I saw the doom in this game coming early when the glitching was running rampant, everybody was glitching thier way threw raids and pvp that by the end of month one so many people were fully geared out with nothing to do.
and im sorry but you can only pvp so much on the same 4 maps before it just gets old.
the Raids were fun to do, but there was only 2 for ever, now they added 1 more. but even these you can only do once a week. and the rest of the time you just grind hard modes and duos, that gets old after day 2, same maps over and over and over and over.......
too bad, the current players dont see it that way, at least the game could improve. Righ now, they see everything as a paradise or game utopia. Anything that is not right, they see it as normal in a new MMO.
As a current player myself this isn't entirely fair and although, as with every mmo, there are blinkered fanbois who shout out over the equally blinkered haters those two groups are a tiny subset of the vast majority of us who know the volume of content is lacking atm. Its a new game, as with every other recent release it went retail too early, unlike every other recent release the core game is actually pretty fresh and fun so it warrants the extra effort needed to make it progress so there is plenty of pressure and suggestions being fired at the devs to expand content as rapidly as possible.
The one point I would suggest is hurting/compromising progress is SoE's own forum policing which is far too draconian/aggressive you don't get long to flesh out ideas.
Overall DCUO is a great starting point, but it has to evolve and develop quickly and it has to do this in the face of the lag SoE bring to the table.....but in all honesty I think given half a chance it is sufficiently good at the core, where it really matters, to win through.
Now it is down to around 33% of what it was at most, and falling...
Maybe people will then realise that this game was just some hot air which is now quickly dissipating. MMORPG columnists should note this as well because they have been praising it since release.
My gaming blog
I think you're missing the mark on this point quite a bit. This isn't a case of the game being poor or not worthy of praise, the problem is with the speed of which SOE patches and the execution of said patches.
The game was rife with exploits that were entirely gamebreaking from the first patch onward. Every attempt to fix the exploits were accompanied by painful nerfs or other imbalances. There is no fix all here, yet SOE released patches in a way that would make one believe that everything would be fixed upon the next patch.
This was a classic case of SOE killing the game themselves rather than the game not being worthy of fame it received. Replacing the fame is equal parts infamy now as players can't handle the exploiting or the misconception that someone is exploiting when they aren't. Its turned into a lot of finger pointing in the PvP and Raid arenas, and really kills the enjoyment for a lot of players.
DCUO didn't have to be a fad ... I'll come back to it when the updates entice me to do so, but that likely won't be for another few months.
^^^@SBE1
Have you played the game? Heres the deal, and most people that are not fanbois will agree. The game was great for what content was there. PvP mechanics and gameplay were bugged and lackluster from the beginning, but there was enough content for a casual gamer to have a tremendous amount of fun for about 2-4 weeks. After tha point, the game was uterlly useless.
They claimed this game was an "mmorpg" but in fact it was not. It lacked the 'depth' as most threads quickly found to be considered an mmorpg. It should have been a console game with no subscription and thats that.
Thus most people played the game like a console game. They played through the story, completed some achievements, played a little bit of PvP, and then set the game down to never look at it again.
Again, it really has nothing to do with the way MMORPG.com scores their games, they actually did a great job here. There are games out there with better scores on other sites with much less longevity, and games with more longevity with worse scores.
If you want to know why people left I've given my opinion many times on it, and seeing as how I've actually been playing the game and have been part of the DCUO community and pretty active on the boards it has more to do with the way SOE handled the game then any lack of content or "non-mmorpg" features.
The chat and UI really were the minor issues here for those that were interested in the game. With each new patch SOE essentially shot themselves in the foot. They were not prepared, and sure, more development time would have been key here, but what would have been more important would be to test their patches more thoroughly before putting them live. The game was severely mishandled, and subs bled quickly when broken mechanics became the norm instead of being a rarity. Even now there are exploits, some very early missions that are broken, some underlying mechanical issues with certain power sets.... it wasn't this way at the time of the review, it got progressively worse.
Exploits are secondary, the main reason for leaving is because the paper thin content that is available. I mean even casual people will hit the cap within two weeks and then have to spend the rest of their time doing end-game missions and PvP which quickly becomes boring after another couple of weeks. So now, about a couple of months after release the population is dropping like a rock.
My gaming blog
That's exactly my point. The MMORPG staff reviewed the game as if it was a console game, not as an MMO with depth and longevity. I pointed this out when the final review came in that the review was unacceptable as an MMO game because it failed to discuss the lack of content, chat, UI as very major drawbacks to making it an "MMO" instead of a single-player console game. Since this website is called "MMORPG", I would have assumed the staff would review the game as an MMO, not as a console game. Unfortunately, they decided in their wisdom to just give it a great review because it was a fun console game. That is what I didn't understand and complained when I saw the review. If this was a 1-time purchase with no subscription fee, then fine. However, there is no way they can justify a monthly fee because it simply isn't "MMO" enough in my opinion.
Generally speaking, console games tend to have more action-oriented and more entertaining gameplay, but you can burn through them rather quickly. MMO games generally sacrafice some of that for extensive content and long-term playability. Clearly the ideal is that you can get both, but DCUO isn't there. This is just a console game that at the end they decided to try to get people to pay a monthly fee. Seeing the population decline dramatically therefore should have been no surprise, despite the glowing reviews from this website.
Why would anyone be surprised that a console game billed as a MMO would tank? A MMO designed to work on a console is destined to be a failure on the PC.
No, they aren't secondary. It wasn't the content, it was the problem with the end game. This game revolved much around PvP, and the PvP servers were large enough to make the game a success on that alone. Some PvE servers were heavy on PvP as well like VnV. The problem was simply the exploits. Raiding groups are still in game, and the most populates servers are still PvP servers, only because at this point the PvP is in a playable state not because its completely fixed.
You'd have to be in-game and get the feel of what people are saying about it to know what I'm talking about, and most of you are not. In fact I don't think you even bought or played the game at all, much less subbed to it.
As Danki had said... they didn't review the game as an MMO. They even went so far as to be defensive about it. Others went so far as to say, "so it doesn't have X, Y, and Z. Why do people insist that every MMO have these things?" It's all right there in the forum for the review.
And I tried to explain it to anyone that would listen, "If it doesn't have X, Y, and Z, then it had better have SOMETHING that takes the place of those things. And DCUO doesn't have anything in its place." So once you've had your fill of button mashing combos(which sure, is a good amount of fun for a while), there's little reason to stay subbed.
People still toted the promise from the devs that huge monthly content updates were forthcoming. But all you need is the simplest logic to understand that it won't be the case. They've been developing the game for years, and the end result is about 30 hours of gameplay. How can anyone believe that they'll now be putting out hours and hours of content EVERY MONTH? The math just doesn't add up.
And the first major update was clear evidence. They will be putting out content at about the same pace as any other MMO, if that.
I understand the dilemma of the average MMO reviewer. You need to get a review out fairly soon after release, so the longevity of an MMO from your personal experience is difficult to determine. But with DCUO... it just doesn't get any clearer than that. That DCUO, for what little it offers, is a fairly decent game, it in no way justifies a monthly subsciption. And I don't just point my finger and MMORPG.com for downplaying this... nearly EVERY reviewer chose willful ignorance over speculation based on clear evidence.
To be honest, though, I don't think they designed DCUO to be a sub game. I think they've more than likely designed it to be a microtransaction F2P model. But hey, with a strong IP, why not milk some box and sub money off the DC fans? Then, once the pop tanks, bring in F2P.
The mmorpg review was and is valid, it is an impression at the time it was taken and as a response of the indiviual undertaking it....as all reviews are. This ignorant banter than somehow subsequent popularity proves one thing or another is conceited in the extreme....were the Spice Girls the greatest artistic musicians of the 90's? Is WoW not only the greatest mmo of all time but also the greatest game of all time? Do innovation and variety actually have any value without success? Is originality actually applauded once it ceases to be original?
All the mainstream DCUO reviews pointed to the sheer fun involved in playing, they highlighted those staple mmo features it lacked or did poorly but the overall score was based on the entertainment value the game gave then....and tbh still gives. If you want a timesump for a timsumps sake actually DCUO does exactly what every other mmo does - you can grind repetitive missions all but indefinitely - the only difference in DCUO is that its optional and the initial run at least is actually enjoyable.
For me the choice is simple, I'd rather play a game that is fun to play by choice than the usual mmo ploy of one that drags me on an endless, wholly redundant journey rarely if ever wandering into enjoyable territory.
DCUO isn't a traditional mmorpg, if you need a fix for that addiction you already have more options than you could ever need......DCUO is actually that rarest of beast's a genuine alternative.
While I think your point about the exploits driving players away is accurate, I don't think it is the only reason. Soe could fix the exploits and plenty of players would still be leaving. For YOU the games revolves around PvP and the exploits are the gamebreaker, but that doesn't mean it is the same for everyone else.
The lack of content IS a problem for some people. Anyone can read the many complaints about it on the official forums right now. PC and PS3 side. Just like people were complaining about it in beta, saying that the game didn't have enough content to justify a subscription fee. We debated that point then and here it is again flying full mast.
If you ask 10 different people why they quit DCU you will get a variety of reasons. Some will say exploits, lack of content, lack of customization, lack of variety, lack of features, lack of fixes, lack of community, lack of quality and any number of other reasons. Many will cite several reasons. Some the same as others and some different. There are just to many problems to point at one specific thing and say "that is the reason people are leaving".
DCU is suffereing, because no matter what aspect of the game you look at there is a problem that needs fixing. It isn't that soe is to slow at fixing them (which they are), but that is a result of the game needing so much work post release that it would be impossible for anyone to release enough fixes fast enough to satisfy players. There is no possible way to fix that much, so the only possible outcome is that soe looks like they are not resolving issues fast enough. The fact that they screwed it up is unrelated to the core problem and just one more thing gone wrong. The root of the problem has always been the condition of the game.
There are two things you have to look at here, 1 is the claim that the MMORPG review wasn't valid because they didn't take it as an MMORPG. This is a flawed argument, as a game is a game, and at the time of the review, the game was fun and had a lasting appeal to it based on what we all were playing. The game received some pretty high acclaim in comparison to other MMORPGs, and it deserved that acclaim. Other reviews were much more critical because the game wasn't the traditional MMORPG and thats okay.
The other thing is the problems the game had, or currently has. The most damaging thing to the game wasn't the content. Sure you can get to max level in a few days, casual players could in a weeks time, but the game was meant to be played at max level. I said it before and I'll say it again, they didn't focus their longevity on the feats like they should have originally.
That was a design flaw in my opinion, but the steepest drop of players came when the expoits became rampant. Thats not supposition, thats exactly what happened.
You have two types of players, those that are playing the game to test it out, try the game, and move on which is where you'll see the "content" problems and then you have your hardcore fanbase - the DC fans, the action game fans, the superhero genre fans, the action based combat fans --- this is the recurring revenue for SOE because these are the people that feel the game was geared towards what they like and their playstyle.
The first type of person will always leave once the content is up, they do it in every game. They did it in DCUO, AoC, and they'll do it in RIFT too.
The second type of person will hang around and continue playing.... people like myself who..... who found a particular niche in the game that they could continuosly enjoy and sub for. We exists, and many of us have stayed with the game even pre-launch. We are willing to put up with the game and its issues as long as there is merit to the systems we find enjoyable.
This is where the PvP servers come into play, and the majority of the population is on them as even now we get between medium and high on D&G and up to medium on PE... but the population is waning. Even weeks after launch we were getting queue times on PvP servers, but with each patch you've seen a steep decline in players, not due to a change in content, in fact they've added MORE content... they are constantly breaking what their core audience is playing for.
I can tell you why my league of over 50 people has dwindled down to less than 10 playing per day, and it isn't the lack of content, most of them knew about the feat system, and we all worked together to complete them. It doesn't matter what server you're on, even at the best of times you see the same 5 - 10 people in arena queues and half of them will be using an exploit or a FOTM build. Mechanically the combat system has an underlying problem with attacks not even registering and then you have other hacks where attacks register at three times the rate but don't show in the combat log at all.
Nobody wants to queue and everyone is accusing everyone else of hacking, cheating, or exploiting and thats the real killer here, more so than the actual exploits. Nobody knows, and the die hard players either adopt hacks or FOTM builds or they get frustrated and stop playing. I'm one that is frustrated and I've unsubbed, but had they been able to reliably fix these issues I can attest that they would have had a much larger amount at least in my league had these issues never occured.
@Maskedweasel
Again, I am not disputing your experiences, but I don't think your experience is the summary of everyones experience or that you are the core audience soe was trying to attract.
This game tried to cater to a wide variety of gameplay styles for a reason. If it only wanted hardcore pvp players, then there wouldn't be more pve servers than pvp servers.
Yes people are leaving, because the pvp is broken and can be unplayable, but that doesn't mean it is the only problem the game has or the main reason people are leaving.
There are people who have casually consumed all the games content and find little reason to log on. This was stated over and over and over in beta and here it is again. Even the new content added was only a few hours worth of gameplay to most. Go read the forums and you will see countless people saying the game needs more content and currently lacks things to do.
I know you think the feat system is awesome, but maybe people are not raving about it for a reason? Forcing people to repeat the same limited amount of content to get character points is pretty damn shallow.
In the end DCU is a shallow game filled with problems from end to end. It isn't a big surprise that the every type of server is suffering and players are already migrating to the few decent pop servers left.
And crafting the same items over and over and over isn't shallow? Running the same raids in other games over and over again is okay, but here it isn't? Gear grind works for WoW but as soon as they put it in DCUO suddenly its boring and repetitive? The only people that seem to be left are those that actually knew about the feat system, it wasn't showcased at all and more than half of the people that played through to max level likely had no idea what these feats did for their character.
Again, you have people who are willing to play the game continuously who enjoy the end game, are willing to continue playing it and rehashing the raids and such to get all of the feats.. and these players aren't the casual players, this is the core base of DCUO. "Shallow" content means very little if you really stop to think that people are maxing out characters in RIFT in the same time people are maxing out characters in DCUO.
More content would not have saved the game from this fate, that is a fact. They could have forced players to play for a month before reaching max level, STILL 2 months down the line with these exploits and issues we would have been in the same boat. Being one of the few that absolutely does not exploit, I've been called an exploiter more times than I can count, and I'm sure I've even been reported a few times..... the entire system regardless of what server you're on (pvp or pve) has become volatile.
They could release a years worth of content tomorrow and if the underlying mechanics with attacks missing (which effects PVE too -- in great detriment to the playability of it) and the exploits are rampant in PvP, its highly unlikely people would be staying to play through it all.
The game deserved its acclaim for its achievements, but SOE is SOE... they just can't get their act together and squash the most damaging bugs. Had the exploits never existed, we would be having a very different conversation here, I have absolutely no doubt in that.
I'm judging DCU on what it has to offer, not trying to downplay it by saying other games have similar feature X or Y. This isn't about crafting or features in other games. DCU is what it is on its own merits and pointing out flaws in another game will not make DCU play better.
As for levels, it doesn't matter how long it takes to reach level cap, because that isn't the measure of a games content. 3 days or 30 days to reach max level doesn't matter, because a level is just a number. What matters is how quickly people have exhausted all the games content and that can be done in DCU in just a few weeks at a CASUAL pace. That is a very important distinction. A characters level has jack shit to do with the overall amount of content in a game.
Why bring up other games? If Rift closed down right now would any of the problems in DCU improve? Would there suddenly be more things for players to engage in?
Remember when you said it would take casual far long than it took you to get to high level encounters or tiered armor pieces? How you were so far ahead of the curve and DCU was a difficult game with all sorts of logevity and plentiful content? Well people are pugging all 3 raid in a few hours each reset. That is the summary of why the game is shallow
Just look at how quickly it breaks down into a game that depends on daily quests and regrinding the same content for tokens. It really doesn't do anything beyond that. It rushed players through the limited content and throws them into a grind.
There is nothing wrong with having gear grinds, token points or whatever, but DCU never really goes beyond that. It gives a few hours worth of decent storyline quest and then demands players repeat the same content for everything else in the game. The speed and ease at which the game runs out of variety is amazingly.
Regardless of what other games do, DCU on its own is shallow and runs out of steam in as short as a few weeks. It is hard to look at the servers and not see that.
You always say this, but your thinking is flawed. The game has enough content to last multiple months for any player willing to do all of its content and achieve the maximum stature of their character. This is the point of the game appealing to a certain demographic. Those that like the game won't just pick up and leave when they've only completed half the content.
Whether people choose to see all of the content or try to achieve the feats and make the most of their character is another matter. All games are repetitive, holding DCUO up to itself makes sense topically, but when you get down to it you miss the point entirely on how this game performs. In the world of DCUO, if you have nothing to compare it to, then this is the first and only MMO, and being as such the world isn't small, raid inspired gear grind is innovative, and a widespread community to interact with is new and exciting. The game as a whole has more than enough to do for those interested in doing it.
Finding something to do is not the problem. Adding 80 hours more of content and a crafting system won't fix the problem or the subscription issues, thats a fact. The problems lie in the bugs in the mechanics.
You say its that the game was shallow that it ran out of steam. You're wrong. It was SOEs inability to patch the game and provide what it stated in a reasonable amount of time.
A good indicator would be the PS3 servers in comparison to the PC.... how populated are the PS3 servers? Exploits weren't as prevalent on those, and we still have high populations on PS3 servers regularly. Is that to mean that PS3 players can stand the "shallowness" of the game, or that maybe there is something to the major exploit problems on the PC version.
The PS3 will likely decline in time, and there are still exploits, but it doesn't hit them nearly as hard, the content is the same for both games... yet one is drastically less populated than the other. You could make an argument about the different kinds of players, or theres a larger population of PS3 to PC players.... but in truth, that doesn't change the game at all. If the game is boring for one group it would be for both, but it doesn't rely on content, it relies on SOEs ability to get their act together and fix the real underlying issues within the PC version.
I think it's a mistake to distill it out into such a simple X = Y comparison.
Particularly regarding crafting. People craft for a number of different reasons. To make money, for guildies, for alts, for themselves...
One thing we both probably agree on, is that they don't do it for the sheer joy of clicking the "create all" button.
So why DO players do it?
Because players feel some commitment to the game. If you're making stuff, you're making it with the idea that you will consume the items in some way at a later time.
Same with raiding. You raid for the uberlootz with the idea that you want your character to be tough as nails; for PvP, for the next expansion, for whatever. But it's not only about the achievement, it's about appealing to our sense of "preparing for the future". This is why you see so many rages over xpacs rewarding greens that are more powerful than their raid gear. But that's for another topic.
Different levels of gameplay... casual, social, non-combat, downtime activities create and maintain an emotional investment to a game. If you can, and are willing to spend hours and hours doing things that may or may not include combat, you are much more "into" the game, especially when "content" runs out. Because that kind of content is more open ended. You are not prevented from crafting items once you've mastered the trade; and in many cases, you're rewarded with better items.
Maybe I'm just getting too wordy... I think of it like this:
DCUO is like that girl that, aside from sex, you feel no urge to spend time with.
A good, solid MMO is that girl, that you like to talk to, hang out in the park with, go car shopping with, watch even a "meh" movie with. And also have sex with.
One, you could easily replace with a hooker. But the other? You want to keep them around for as long as you like to do those things with them.
DCUO requires no emotional investment, nor does it offer you the opportunity to build it, so people are just "getting off" and moving on. Even if DCUO worked out all its bugs tomorrow, people will still lack ways to invest themselves into the game. And thus, it will be an easy girl to quit.
Some people may play games for some kind of emotional investment, I've played games for decades and don't feel it necessary to have an emotional investment to continue playing something as long as its fun.
Not everything has to be impactful, and crafting in any game doesn't necessarily make me feel like I'm impacting anything more or less than if I was a combat only character. Fallen earth is a good example of this, where I was very active in my clan, crafted weapons, and mounts for them, and was a big part of the social network, but in the end, when the game became stale and no longer fun for me I moved on, just like the others in my group.
Games are meant as entertainment, and you only bring out of it the enjoyment you can get from it. Downtime activities don't provide that in every game, in fact, they don't provide that in most games. Think of all the recent games that have done poorly with these kind of downtime activities. Think of all the very one-note games like Halo that have made many multi-million dollar purchases, have very strong followings, and yet, provide little more than a space age shooter. People pay to play halo monthly (via xbox live) and it provides much less in the way of content and longevity.
Simple comparisons are relevant here as they are in roughly the same genre. This game has an offering of different activiites and achievements, and at one time these were even strong enough to have kept me for an undetermined amount of time until the next game launch that I was interested in. Unfortunately due to the way development was handled, it was cut extremely short.
Some design changes could have helped in that, most notably more translucency in the extra features the game offers that would have kept players coming back for those "other things" the game offered that players never caught on to. Mostly it is the bug fixes which SOE just seems to move too slowly or not react on at all similar to how SWG went for many multiple years changing and reiterating without ever fixing the underlying problems.
Here the problems were much more prevalent. There was room for players to get attached and grow, but when you have developers working against their players, and a company that makes it tough for those developers to support the game with restrictions and what have you on patch schedules... its a really daunting task for them, and a frustrating experience for us.
@maskedweasel
You keep saying the game has enough content to last multiple months, but there are tons of players who are leaving citing lack of content as the reason. I know that flies in opposition to your personal experiences, but you can't blame my thinking as being flawed for something that can be witnessed in many other people right now.
Again, recall back to the beta when people were practially chanting "Is this all there is to the game" and you were saying the same thing about DCU offering many months worth of content? Well here we are not even 2 months later and servers are dying and people are complaining about lack of content. The message about DCU lacking content has been pretty widely spoken.
Maybe people have not completed every single feat or the entire suit of T2 armor, but that doesn't mean they have not experienced the content that gives those rewards. Feats are not content as you are painting them up to be. Doing the same mission, then do it left handed, then do it hoping on one leg, then with one eye closed.... It is all still the same mission that players have done any number of times already. You are trying to make that sound like there are tons of different things to do that will keep players engaged for months, when the subset of actual content is very shallow. At the end of a few weeks people can easily experience almost everything the game has to offer and the only avanue left is to repeat it in quirky ways.
I feel confident that the game has declined so rapidly for more than one reason. Again, go read the forums to hear the varied number of reasons players are listing.
As for the PS3 servers doing "bettter", because they are not as exposed to the exploits....
http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuops3/posts/list.m?topic_id=17679
http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuops3/posts/list.m?topic_id=17505
http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuops3/posts/list.m?topic_id=17567
http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuops3/posts/list.m?topic_id=17649
http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuops3/posts/list.m?topic_id=17037
http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuops3/posts/list.m?topic_id=17429
From the front page of the PS3 forums.
Same problems, different platform.
You've made an excellent analogy there.
I also agree with Daffid011 - to a person primarily interested in PvP, the many exploits can be seen as the only reason people are leaving. But, it's more than that - people really ARE leaving for a variety of reasons, not just exploits.
The combat system in the game is definitely different. But, in my opinion, it takes a lot more that just a combat system to keep people playing, and paying, long-term for an MMO.
I think a lot of people were so dazzled by the newness of the combat system, that it blinded them to how weak the rest of the game is as an MMO.
As Robsolf infers, DCUO feels more like an action-combat based lobby game, and not an MMO into which players invest themselves or commit to. It is completely lacking both the amount and variety of content and systems needed to engender such committment to a game.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
And where are these people complaining about lack of content? Here? On the official forums? For every one complaint about content there are 3 complaints about exploits or bugs. Again, the content has stayed the same between the two versions of the game, the PS3 and the PC... yet one side is much more heavily populated than the other... yet the content is still the same. "Lack" of content is a minor issue here. I'm on the DCUO forums every day, I know what complaints are out there.
Everyone wants more content, but the main reason people are leaving NOW are the bugs. To say some people are going to leave from lack of content is like saying some people will quit their job at walmart, its going to happen, MMOs have a "high turnover rate" people will come in, do the content and leave, just like in other MMOs. Those that would normally stay, aren't staying, and its not due to content, its due to bugs... just reading the first page in general on the DCUO forums will show you plenty of instances of that.
Actually playing in game and talking to some of the players would yield the same results. I play on D&G, VnV and PE. Most of those leaving that I've spoken with have done so because of exploits... those that have left already? Perhaps content, perhaps something else entirely.
::edit::
The links don't really mean too much here, if you log on to the PS3 version you can see the server population for a number of servers are all on medium to high. On PC you see all but 1 server on low.
You have one post talking about doing a weekly raid, and wanting them to add more.
You have on talking about merging EU and US servers
You do have some exploits on the PS3, but my point still stands, their servers are much more populated than the PC ones.
@masked
On the flip side the PS3 has its own set of problems that are just gamebreaking as exploits. The fact that players over there are already requesting servers mergers says all that needs to be said. Low/med/high doesn't matter if players are coming to the same conclusion on the PS3 as the PC.
Again, I'm not dismissing your personal experience that exploits are the major reason you and your associates have left. That doesn't mean there are not plenty of other reasons people have left including lack of content. People you may not talk to, because like you said, you are way ahead of the curve and run with a pretty hardcore crowd.
Maybe it is 3:1 like you think it is, maybe it is 100:1 against your opinion since upwards of 80% of the playerbase has already left. Who really knows why they all left, but there are plenty of common complaints listed the include bugs/exploits, but are most certainly not just limited to those things.
Somehow I don't think players will flock back to the game when the bugs get fixed.
@robsolf
Excellent read and well stated.