Yes perspective is subjecive, but movies are passive and video games are interactive and that is objective.
But whether you're bored with movies for the same reasons that you can be bored with games, that is subjective.
Like me, I'm looking for originality and cherish it when I encounter it in books and movies but still can enjoy movies and books that aren't wildly imaginative or original as long as they're good and thus enjoyable. The same applies for me with games. Hence subjective.
Yes that is true. I was responding tho to the person who asserted that because of the reasons he doesn't like DA:O2, he must not like movies either. I was just saying that that is not necessarily so.
I just do not understand why people like style of gaming where you are led down a premade path and you can not explore.
I thought Oblivion killed off these style of games.
Why would anyone want to play these bioware nonsense "tunnel worlds" is beyond me.
Im bigger fan of bethesda then bioware but i still play games like DAO(expected a good follow up on baldurs gate2 but was in that way very dissapointed) if its a good rpg with small linear paths to follow and limited exploring.
Story was ok (rip off LORD OF THE RINGS) i could live with this.
DAO for a dx9.0c game looks very nice and i must say that story with all the npc's actual speaking plus your party memebers give you kind of feeling you play with other players was nice.
DAO was easy nightmare should have been way much tougher but then you would have had millions of whiners on forums and these days companys only want $$$ so they make it easy.
Game was fun for a while becouse of characters like morrigan and oghren later my most favorite character.
The fights where ok and going through all these tunnels small maps and dungeons was not that bad but it was all on avarage 7/10.
Charactarization was fun to do and all the races and classes storys where very nice doing specially DWARFS.
But to many moments where dull and uninspiring to me in DAO.
DAO was for me limit i would not play even more dumb down less freedom and less exploring plus IDIOTIC COMBAT DA2 is for me insanely stupid combat and bad grafhics is for me reason i dont buy DA2.
Ill wait for Elder scroll V:Skyrim 11-11-11 seems Bethesda stay true to there fans and even hopefully improve on oblivion mobs won't stay same lvl anymore
P.S Did not buy one DLC i still think thats bullshit try get more money from customers for content that should be free or already in the game.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I just do not understand why people like style of gaming where you are led down a premade path and you can not explore.
I thought Oblivion killed off these style of games.
Why would anyone want to play these bioware nonsense "tunnel worlds" is beyond me.
I had a great time and lots of fond memories playing Final Fantasy 7 to 10, the Secret of Monkey Island, Uncharted, Heavy Rain, Amnesia, Silent Hill and The Longest Journey.
All games with a heavy emphasis on the storylines, with little to no character customisation options and a game design that was far from open freeroaming worlds but more 'tunneled'.
I don't see why gamers should limit their taste to 'I only like RPG's and if it's an RPG then it has to be THIS specific type, no other'. Maybe some RPG gamers think like that.
A lot of other gamers though just play games where they have fun with and don't restrict their gaming fun to a narrow taste range. Why gamers should only be able to enjoy Oblivion-style of games is completely beyond me.
Games are games, you play them for fun, fun is different for everyone.
Seems to me that a number of gamers limit themselves purposely to a narrow range of games they're able to enjoy. Which is fine, for them. Don't expect other gamers to have such a limited taste range as well though.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree with the OP. I have always been bored quickly by lineair progression in RPG's.
I am looking forward to SWTOR myself though and I am curious whether Bioware got things right in the world design department for this one. I do hope so. A mmorpg is an alltogether different cookie compared to a single player rpg and Bioware had to break their mold to a certain extent anyway ...
Planescape Torment, mostly played in Sigil (ok sigil is a weird place but still)
The setting of a game does not indicate its linearity just its scope the two games above tell two of the BEST CRPG stories ever told and do so in a very small scope in terms of the setting.
DA:2 will aim for the same vibe but sadly has fallen prey to the mass market Dumbing down effect of the last decade of games. SWTOR on the other hand will feature large open worlds
Now which of these is better and which is worse? for a single player RPG the recent habit Bioware have had of tunneling the game into the story is actually starting to become a turn off for single player and YET they still have not made a BAD CRPG.
Its just that people like CD Projekt Red are starting to do a better job of it (I wont bring obsidian into this, since they are the Cryptic of the single player world)
Planescape Torment, mostly played in Sigil (ok sigil is a weird place but still)
The setting of a game does not indicate its linearity just its scope the two games above tell two of the BEST CRPG stories ever told and do so in a very small scope in terms of the setting.
DA:2 will aim for the same vibe but sadly has fallen prey to the mass market Dumbing down effect of the last decade of games. SWTOR on the other hand will feature large open worlds
Now which of these is better and which is worse? for a single player RPG the recent habit Bioware have had of tunneling the game into the story is actually starting to become a turn off for single player and YET they still have not made a BAD CRPG.
Its just that people like CD Projekt Red are starting to do a better job of it (I wont bring obsidian into this, since they are the Cryptic of the single player world)
I had to say it: I feel the same about obsidian man
I know EXACTLY what you're saying OP. And I know this is a bit off-topic but after hearing more about the new Elder Scrolls game; Skyrim, and how you play a specific character this... "Dragonborn", is a step in taking away the freedom of immersion and actual Roleplaying I loved those games for.
I don't want to turn this into a Bethesda thread but how is being the 'Dragonborn' any different than being the Nerevarine (Morrowind) or the Foreseen One (Oblivion)? Every Elder Scrolls game has had the player as some sort of 'special savior' type character. Being the 'Dragonborn' is not going to effect your character at all except for when your playing the main storyline just like in the four games that came before.
Didn't Bioware criticise Square Enix and FF 13 for beeing linear and how their rpg's are different and better b/c they are open? I remember there was some interview year or 2 ago.
dragon age, mass effect, seems to me they play almost eactly like KOTOR, I dont see the OP's point at all to be honest. I dont see that Bioware has changed thier formula that much at all. And besides the stories they tell are still TOP notch, and thats what I care most about in a single player RPG.
"Well let me just quote the late-great Colonel Sanders, who said…’I’m too drunk to taste this chicken." - Ricky Bobby
BioWare has created many SP games, all of which have had levels like this, even NWNs you were pretty much on a set path. Games like DA, KOTOR, Gears of War, CoD, the battlefield series, even HALO, these games were all single player games with a story to tell and levels built to move that story along. Though some changes were made between ME and ME2, much of the underlying design didn't change... and I think anyone expecting DA:O and DA2 to be the difference between KOTOR and Oblivion should be kicked in the face with a little wooden elf shoe. Not.... not a wooden elf, just the shoe would be wooden.
At the end of the day they provide entertainment in a very specific manner thats driven by these "tunnel" levels. That doesn't mean every game they will ever create will be this way, but just like how you work your way through the story missions in games like GoW or Transformers WFC, you do so here too, and as well received as those games were, these games often are well received too. If you don't like them, why are you playing them?
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I know EXACTLY what you're saying OP. And I know this is a bit off-topic but after hearing more about the new Elder Scrolls game; Skyrim, and how you play a specific character this... "Dragonborn", is a step in taking away the freedom of immersion and actual Roleplaying I loved those games for.
Huh? What would being the Dragonborn take away from anything? Did being the Nevarine take away anything from Morrowind? You character in Skyrim doesnt start out as knowing they are the Dragonborn but ends up finding it out later on exactly like Morrowind. In Oblivion you were just a messenger and that annoyed the crap out of me.
As far as Bioware.. Well I didnt care much for DA1. The amount of loading screens that game was was horrible and should never happen today. Then all the areas you visit being so small that you wonder how much time they invested in actually building the world. If DA2 is the same then I am not even going to bother with it.
I really don't get it. When I read in the PC Gamer review the majority of DA2 was playing in Kirkwall, I could not help to make a huge sigh.
The Withcer was set in and around 1 town/city also but it was pretty big, I know it's a different company but it's same principle. It's not about the setting as much m8, it's whats put into that setting and how big it is. For all we know at the moment this one setting could be small, could be huge.
I know, story telling and wide open world as in Bethesda games are difficult. Maybe impossible. But this?
Same could be said for other games.
You know, all Bioware RPGs ever since the KOTOR success have more or less been tunnel worlds. It does not matter so much in the ME series, since in space and some colonies it is sort of believable. But in a fantasy world, it is just strange, why a person should always be confined.
I don't want to sound like the usual petty people but please name a few of these "tunnel confined games" by BioWare.
My first impression of the DA2 demo was likewise bad. The endless totally tight tunnel of escape. No strolling left or right, NOTHING to explore or find, only the bare minimum of what was needed: the direct line from A to Z, entrance to escape. I am sorry, but that felt rather like some console jump and run tunnel level than a world. And the brief episode in Kirkwall in the 2nd half of the demo left an even worse impression.
A city full of closed doors, where NOTHING happened beside the combat. All exists where closed by gates. Maybe it was for demo purposes, maybe because it was some night time event. But it still sat ill with me as another realization how your fixation on "STORY STORY STORY" has blinded you to ANY other part of your games. It is, I must say it here, the same impression I have from following SWTOR. You really make great stories, you emphasizse on it, but everything else is totally neglected.
Story hasn't blinded anyone my friend, What your saying is like saying SWG, WoW, LotRO and all the other MMOs contain nothing because they have a main storyline. BioWare are just improving on the main storyline ideal for SW:TOR. If you read carefully you'll see that it's not tunnel based A - Z, it's open and full of oppertunities.
While I love a good story like any other RPG bloke, I also love to explore. I love to venture through large forests, through open regions. Just to discover stuff, even some pointless gimmicks. But in this way, we are more and more confined with each new game. Just see how ME1 -> ME2 was more and more dropping RPG features and it had become more shooter with story. And now the same happens to DA. You drop the origin and we have a preset human. You make the formerly small places even more narrow to the point that this escape route wasn't broader than if I had streched out my arms! You didn't even make a real overland world in DA:O, but instead just some travelling via some sterile map, and nothing to explore between the places of story. And NOW you even entirely drop the worldmap and confine us into ONE CITY? You put us all into the Procrustes bed of a preset story confined by a given outcome in the future, only narrated. We even jump over whole years. How are we to feel free to explore our own course that way?
ME2 was just as open as ME1, i have been playing the games continuously for the past 2 weeks as i'm hooked on them and other RPGs till SW:TOR comes out.
Not to speak of the fact how 90% of the demo stuff was either in variation of brown or grey. If I had to describe the escape route of the heroes lush or interesting would NOT be the words of choice here.
Why no just cut environment altogether and just let us run through one long enough tunnel like in Dungeon Siege 1?
The entire "Hawk is a human only" reminded me all too bad of Mr.Erickson ruling out aliens of SWTOR with the cold comment: "people can't identify with freaks". Later the SWTOR devs explained, playing non-humans did not fir to the stories they had in mind. Sounds familiar? Well, it sounds like the carbon copy for the DA2 ideology. Take a preset human, because it interrupts your "vision" of storytelling.
SW:TOR isn't human only as player character, Human, Mirialans, Miraluka, Twi'Lek, Sith Pureblood, Zabrak, Rattataki and Chiss have all been confirmed, check the official forums HERE
Bioware, I have told you a year ago with ME2, you are losing your way. You focus ALL on story, you sacrifice EVERY OTHER virtue on this altar of your oh so holy story, and I don't like what you are doing. All other virtues of a RPG are being sacrificed with each new game. Diversity in choices of skills, diversity in paths to tread, openness of world and exploration, all the being sucked out by some "idea fixe" of storytelling.
Then sir the game isn't for you, BioWare have clearly stated who their target audience is (the KotOR fans) and how they plan to make the game.
I just don't like the way you are heading here, Sirs, not at all!
I will buy DA2. However, I couldn't agree more with your post. Bioware is getting away with it now, but in the next several years this style won't fly. We gamers will demand more than just story and fun combat. I think the Elder Scrolls that is on the way this year will help raise the bar on the quality of RPGs that are released to us on console.
Me2 wasn't a tunnel? Even Citadel was basicly a tunnel, ME1 was hugely more complex. Also I think every side quest in ME2 were also tunnels and so were main quests. Only area which was slightly more complex was Omega. Or I might remember wrong anyone can say where I'm wrong?
Maybe, just maybe BW should give up the term RPG and call them interactive action movies or something. Have to see how they dump down ME3 even more.
One city wouldn't be issue if done well, Witcher proves that it can provide quite workable setting.
Comments
Yes that is true. I was responding tho to the person who asserted that because of the reasons he doesn't like DA:O2, he must not like movies either. I was just saying that that is not necessarily so.
I just do not understand why people like style of gaming where you are led down a premade path and you can not explore.
I thought Oblivion killed off these style of games.
Why would anyone want to play these bioware nonsense "tunnel worlds" is beyond me.
Im bigger fan of bethesda then bioware but i still play games like DAO(expected a good follow up on baldurs gate2 but was in that way very dissapointed) if its a good rpg with small linear paths to follow and limited exploring.
Story was ok (rip off LORD OF THE RINGS) i could live with this.
DAO for a dx9.0c game looks very nice and i must say that story with all the npc's actual speaking plus your party memebers give you kind of feeling you play with other players was nice.
DAO was easy nightmare should have been way much tougher but then you would have had millions of whiners on forums and these days companys only want $$$ so they make it easy.
Game was fun for a while becouse of characters like morrigan and oghren later my most favorite character.
The fights where ok and going through all these tunnels small maps and dungeons was not that bad but it was all on avarage 7/10.
Charactarization was fun to do and all the races and classes storys where very nice doing specially DWARFS.
But to many moments where dull and uninspiring to me in DAO.
DAO was for me limit i would not play even more dumb down less freedom and less exploring plus IDIOTIC COMBAT DA2 is for me insanely stupid combat and bad grafhics is for me reason i dont buy DA2.
Ill wait for Elder scroll V:Skyrim 11-11-11 seems Bethesda stay true to there fans and even hopefully improve on oblivion mobs won't stay same lvl anymore
P.S Did not buy one DLC i still think thats bullshit try get more money from customers for content that should be free or already in the game.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I had a great time and lots of fond memories playing Final Fantasy 7 to 10, the Secret of Monkey Island, Uncharted, Heavy Rain, Amnesia, Silent Hill and The Longest Journey.
All games with a heavy emphasis on the storylines, with little to no character customisation options and a game design that was far from open freeroaming worlds but more 'tunneled'.
I don't see why gamers should limit their taste to 'I only like RPG's and if it's an RPG then it has to be THIS specific type, no other'. Maybe some RPG gamers think like that.
A lot of other gamers though just play games where they have fun with and don't restrict their gaming fun to a narrow taste range. Why gamers should only be able to enjoy Oblivion-style of games is completely beyond me.
Games are games, you play them for fun, fun is different for everyone.
Seems to me that a number of gamers limit themselves purposely to a narrow range of games they're able to enjoy. Which is fine, for them. Don't expect other gamers to have such a limited taste range as well though.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree with the OP. I have always been bored quickly by lineair progression in RPG's.
I am looking forward to SWTOR myself though and I am curious whether Bioware got things right in the world design department for this one. I do hope so. A mmorpg is an alltogether different cookie compared to a single player rpg and Bioware had to break their mold to a certain extent anyway ...
My brand new bloggity blog.
The Witcher, Mostly played in or around Vizima
Planescape Torment, mostly played in Sigil (ok sigil is a weird place but still)
The setting of a game does not indicate its linearity just its scope the two games above tell two of the BEST CRPG stories ever told and do so in a very small scope in terms of the setting.
DA:2 will aim for the same vibe but sadly has fallen prey to the mass market Dumbing down effect of the last decade of games. SWTOR on the other hand will feature large open worlds
Now which of these is better and which is worse? for a single player RPG the recent habit Bioware have had of tunneling the game into the story is actually starting to become a turn off for single player and YET they still have not made a BAD CRPG.
Its just that people like CD Projekt Red are starting to do a better job of it (I wont bring obsidian into this, since they are the Cryptic of the single player world)
I had to say it: I feel the same about obsidian man
=/
I don't want to turn this into a Bethesda thread but how is being the 'Dragonborn' any different than being the Nerevarine (Morrowind) or the Foreseen One (Oblivion)? Every Elder Scrolls game has had the player as some sort of 'special savior' type character. Being the 'Dragonborn' is not going to effect your character at all except for when your playing the main storyline just like in the four games that came before.
OK, now back to the BioWare rants.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Didn't Bioware criticise Square Enix and FF 13 for beeing linear and how their rpg's are different and better b/c they are open? I remember there was some interview year or 2 ago.
dragon age, mass effect, seems to me they play almost eactly like KOTOR, I dont see the OP's point at all to be honest. I dont see that Bioware has changed thier formula that much at all. And besides the stories they tell are still TOP notch, and thats what I care most about in a single player RPG.
BioWare has created many SP games, all of which have had levels like this, even NWNs you were pretty much on a set path. Games like DA, KOTOR, Gears of War, CoD, the battlefield series, even HALO, these games were all single player games with a story to tell and levels built to move that story along. Though some changes were made between ME and ME2, much of the underlying design didn't change... and I think anyone expecting DA:O and DA2 to be the difference between KOTOR and Oblivion should be kicked in the face with a little wooden elf shoe. Not.... not a wooden elf, just the shoe would be wooden.
At the end of the day they provide entertainment in a very specific manner thats driven by these "tunnel" levels. That doesn't mean every game they will ever create will be this way, but just like how you work your way through the story missions in games like GoW or Transformers WFC, you do so here too, and as well received as those games were, these games often are well received too. If you don't like them, why are you playing them?
Original poster is spot on. I also found Bioware's script for ME3 if you are interested:
http://www.cyoa.com/templates/webStore_1column_noHeader.php?pageid=59
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Huh? What would being the Dragonborn take away from anything? Did being the Nevarine take away anything from Morrowind? You character in Skyrim doesnt start out as knowing they are the Dragonborn but ends up finding it out later on exactly like Morrowind. In Oblivion you were just a messenger and that annoyed the crap out of me.
As far as Bioware.. Well I didnt care much for DA1. The amount of loading screens that game was was horrible and should never happen today. Then all the areas you visit being so small that you wonder how much time they invested in actually building the world. If DA2 is the same then I am not even going to bother with it.
I will buy DA2. However, I couldn't agree more with your post. Bioware is getting away with it now, but in the next several years this style won't fly. We gamers will demand more than just story and fun combat. I think the Elder Scrolls that is on the way this year will help raise the bar on the quality of RPGs that are released to us on console.
With that said, I still feel DA2 is worth $60.
Me2 wasn't a tunnel? Even Citadel was basicly a tunnel, ME1 was hugely more complex. Also I think every side quest in ME2 were also tunnels and so were main quests. Only area which was slightly more complex was Omega. Or I might remember wrong anyone can say where I'm wrong?
Maybe, just maybe BW should give up the term RPG and call them interactive action movies or something. Have to see how they dump down ME3 even more.
One city wouldn't be issue if done well, Witcher proves that it can provide quite workable setting.
I have great hopes for Witcher 2...