did you pay for the game? no? then it is free. The candy store example is the same thing, but you ignored that. Not all the candy is free, so is the ad "Free Candy" in valid? Of course not.
The store does not advertise out front "FREE CANDY" and its not generally referred to as the 'Free Candy Store'. Usually they put a sign on the candy bowl that quite accurately notes it is a sample. Everything else in the store has a price tag on it.
thanks for making my point. even if they had a sign out front that said in 10 foot letters "Free Candy" it doesn't change the fact that only some of it is free. You have gone to XYZ company (candy store) they have an ad in big neon letters "F2P!" (Free Candy!). You download the game and play for FREE (get some free candy). That same company XYZ sells other stuff too (more candy). Is the free play any less free (still free candy)? no. Is the other product they sell optional (still all the other candy in the store with a price tag)? yes. They want you to come in and have some free candy in the hopes that some folk will come back and by other candy in the store. Same with the F2P, the only difference is....none.
Advertising that they have free candy is not the same as if they called their store "ABC Store: The Free Candy Store"
Unfortunately, the US govt thinks it is your mommy. Thus they have to get involved whether your actual mommy is doing her job or not stopping you from buying things you werent supposed to. The FTC needs to stay out of this and let the parents pay for the consequences of not parenting.
Well, I agree with that but a smurf game where a 8 year old kid can spend 1400 bucks is taking things too far.
Yes, it is the parents responsibility but that is highway robbery aimed at kids. The other 2 cases are just silly and the parents should just pay it but the #¤%& smurf game should be taken out of it's misery.
Most F2P games on any media us perfectly fine but we got one case that is a scam, that is more than I payed for my IRL furniture. But the retailer should really have nipped this in the bud, the publisher do have some responsibilities to the consumers.
It would suck if one scamming game would affect the whole genre and stop F2P MMOs as well.
I dont think its too far. No one forced the adult to buy the phone, the kid to play the game. If we dont like something a business does, dont use their products. YOU dont need to tax ME to form some commission to regulate it. Instead of that parent paying for the kids mistake, I have to now pay for some commision to parent the kid.
Unfortunately, the US govt thinks it is your mommy. Thus they have to get involved whether your actual mommy is doing her job or not stopping you from buying things you werent supposed to. The FTC needs to stay out of this and let the parents pay for the consequences of not parenting.
Well, I agree with that but a smurf game where a 8 year old kid can spend 1400 bucks is taking things too far.
Yes, it is the parents responsibility but that is highway robbery aimed at kids. The other 2 cases are just silly and the parents should just pay it but the #¤%& smurf game should be taken out of it's misery.
Most F2P games on any media us perfectly fine but we got one case that is a scam, that is more than I payed for my IRL furniture. But the retailer should really have nipped this in the bud, the publisher do have some responsibilities to the consumers.
It would suck if one scamming game would affect the whole genre and stop F2P MMOs as well.
I dont think its too far. No one forced the adult to buy the phone, the kid to play the game. If we dont like something a business does, dont use their products. YOU dont need to tax ME to form some commission to regulate it. Instead of that parent paying for the kids mistake, I have to now pay for some commision to parent the kid.
i would on the other hands say it is your problem becuase its attitudes like yours that encourage companies to keep using these scammy practices, and btw no one is asking for a commision to "parent" kids we are asking a commision to protect the public from irresponsible, unethical and careless companies that feel that anything goes as long as it profits them
edit: i would like to add my statement are not directed at f2p only but all the unregulated and dodgy business going on in the world wide web.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Unfortunately, the US govt thinks it is your mommy. Thus they have to get involved whether your actual mommy is doing her job or not stopping you from buying things you werent supposed to. The FTC needs to stay out of this and let the parents pay for the consequences of not parenting.
Well, I agree with that but a smurf game where a 8 year old kid can spend 1400 bucks is taking things too far.
Yes, it is the parents responsibility but that is highway robbery aimed at kids. The other 2 cases are just silly and the parents should just pay it but the #¤%& smurf game should be taken out of it's misery.
Most F2P games on any media us perfectly fine but we got one case that is a scam, that is more than I payed for my IRL furniture. But the retailer should really have nipped this in the bud, the publisher do have some responsibilities to the consumers.
It would suck if one scamming game would affect the whole genre and stop F2P MMOs as well.
I dont think its too far. No one forced the adult to buy the phone, the kid to play the game. If we dont like something a business does, dont use their products. YOU dont need to tax ME to form some commission to regulate it. Instead of that parent paying for the kids mistake, I have to now pay for some commision to parent the kid.
i would on the other hands say it is your problem becuase its attitudes like yours that encourage companies to keep using these scammy practices, and btw no one is asking for a commision to "parent" kids we are asking a commision to protect the public from irresponsible, unethical and careless companies that feel that anything goes as long as it profits them
edit: i would like to add my statement are not directed at f2p only but all the unregulated and dodgy business going on in the world wide web.
No, its attitudes like yours which dumb down people from protecting their own interests. Companies should be free to do whatever they want except for forcing you to buy their product or breaking a contract.
did you pay for the game? no? then it is free. The candy store example is the same thing, but you ignored that. Not all the candy is free, so is the ad "Free Candy" in valid? Of course not.
The store does not advertise out front "FREE CANDY" and its not generally referred to as the 'Free Candy Store'. Usually they put a sign on the candy bowl that quite accurately notes it is a sample. Everything else in the store has a price tag on it.
thanks for making my point. even if they had a sign out front that said in 10 foot letters "Free Candy" it doesn't change the fact that only some of it is free. You have gone to XYZ company (candy store) they have an ad in big neon letters "F2P!" (Free Candy!). You download the game and play for FREE (get some free candy). That same company XYZ sells other stuff too (more candy). Is the free play any less free (still free candy)? no. Is the other product they sell optional (still all the other candy in the store with a price tag)? yes. They want you to come in and have some free candy in the hopes that some folk will come back and by other candy in the store. Same with the F2P, the only difference is....none.
Advertising that they have free candy is not the same as if they called their store "ABC Store: The Free Candy Store"
Your right, and they are "XYZ game company" with "ABC F2P game".
thanks for making my point. even if they had a sign out front that said in 10 foot letters "Free Candy" it doesn't change the fact that only some of it is free. You have gone to XYZ company (candy store) they have an ad in big neon letters "F2P!" (Free Candy!). You download the game and play for FREE (get some free candy). That same company XYZ sells other stuff too (more candy). Is the free play any less free (still free candy)? no. Is the other product they sell optional (still all the other candy in the store with a price tag)? yes. They want you to come in and have some free candy in the hopes that some folk will come back and by other candy in the store. Same with the F2P, the only difference is....none.
For the 2nd time:
Stores do not put out " FREE CANDY " signs, and if they did it would be stated somewhere what is and what is not free, or what must be done to make it free.
You also seem to be confused about what F2P companies are advertising. They are not advertising that their items (candy) are free, but that playing (shopping) is free.
Is shopping simply the act of walking in the store and looking at items or is it the act of purchasing an item?
i.e.
Is playing simply the act of logging onto a server or is it 100% access to items, quests, areas, or is it somewhere between the 2 extremes?
If it is somewhere between, then wouldn't that technically be a free trial or a sample?
No you are confusing the F2P product with the COMPANY that created it and offers it. It isn't a F2P company, It is a F2P product that the COMPANY offers. They are advertising their F2P game.
Unfortunately, the US govt thinks it is your mommy. Thus they have to get involved whether your actual mommy is doing her job or not stopping you from buying things you werent supposed to. The FTC needs to stay out of this and let the parents pay for the consequences of not parenting.
Well, I agree with that but a smurf game where a 8 year old kid can spend 1400 bucks is taking things too far.
Yes, it is the parents responsibility but that is highway robbery aimed at kids. The other 2 cases are just silly and the parents should just pay it but the #¤%& smurf game should be taken out of it's misery.
Most F2P games on any media us perfectly fine but we got one case that is a scam, that is more than I payed for my IRL furniture. But the retailer should really have nipped this in the bud, the publisher do have some responsibilities to the consumers.
It would suck if one scamming game would affect the whole genre and stop F2P MMOs as well.
I dont think its too far. No one forced the adult to buy the phone, the kid to play the game. If we dont like something a business does, dont use their products. YOU dont need to tax ME to form some commission to regulate it. Instead of that parent paying for the kids mistake, I have to now pay for some commision to parent the kid.
i would on the other hands say it is your problem becuase its attitudes like yours that encourage companies to keep using these scammy practices, and btw no one is asking for a commision to "parent" kids we are asking a commision to protect the public from irresponsible, unethical and careless companies that feel that anything goes as long as it profits them
edit: i would like to add my statement are not directed at f2p only but all the unregulated and dodgy business going on in the world wide web.
No, its attitudes like yours which dumb down people from protecting their own interests. Companies should be free to do whatever they want except for forcing you to buy their product or breaking a contract.
must poeple would agree that rules and morals or ethics are something that we should all live by , these comapanies needs to live by these standards aswell its what makes our society work , its what the great freedom this country is based on, you erroneously seem to think becuase these are companies they dont seem to have to follow the same rules as the rest of us .
what kinda of world would this be if we were stupid enough to follow YOUR mistaken ideas. murder is murder wether its done by 1 individual or by a group unified under one name.
just becuase adversity makes us grow and gives us the opportunity to become better than we are doesnt mean u go around scamming, trying to harm or belittle poeple , becuase you believe it will make them stronger and better.
We as a society have rules of conduct that EVRYONE even corporate entities must/should follow
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Unfortunately, the US govt thinks it is your mommy. Thus they have to get involved whether your actual mommy is doing her job or not stopping you from buying things you werent supposed to. The FTC needs to stay out of this and let the parents pay for the consequences of not parenting.
Well, I agree with that but a smurf game where a 8 year old kid can spend 1400 bucks is taking things too far.
Yes, it is the parents responsibility but that is highway robbery aimed at kids. The other 2 cases are just silly and the parents should just pay it but the #¤%& smurf game should be taken out of it's misery.
Most F2P games on any media us perfectly fine but we got one case that is a scam, that is more than I payed for my IRL furniture. But the retailer should really have nipped this in the bud, the publisher do have some responsibilities to the consumers.
It would suck if one scamming game would affect the whole genre and stop F2P MMOs as well.
I dont think its too far. No one forced the adult to buy the phone, the kid to play the game. If we dont like something a business does, dont use their products. YOU dont need to tax ME to form some commission to regulate it. Instead of that parent paying for the kids mistake, I have to now pay for some commision to parent the kid.
i would on the other hands say it is your problem becuase its attitudes like yours that encourage companies to keep using these scammy practices, and btw no one is asking for a commision to "parent" kids we are asking a commision to protect the public from irresponsible, unethical and careless companies that feel that anything goes as long as it profits them
edit: i would like to add my statement are not directed at f2p only but all the unregulated and dodgy business going on in the world wide web.
No, its attitudes like yours which dumb down people from protecting their own interests. Companies should be free to do whatever they want except for forcing you to buy their product or breaking a contract.
must poeple would agree that rules and morals or ethics are something that we should all live by , these comapanies needs to live by these standards aswell its what makes our society work , its what the great freedom this country is based on, you erroneously seem to think becuase these are companies they dont seem to have to follow the same rules as the rest of us .
what kinda of world would this be if we were stupid enoug to follow YOUR mistaken ideas. murder is murder wether its done by 1 individual or by a group unified under one name.
just becuase adversity makes us grow and gives us the opportunity to become better than we are doesnt mean u go around scamming, trying to harm or belittle poeple , becuase you believe it will make them stronger and better.
We as a society have rules of conduct that EVRYONE even corporate entities must/should follow
No, we dont. We have a free market which allows people to do what they want so long as they dont infringe on your rights. If you dont like the way a business does business, dont buy their products. That is freedom. Forcing people to adhere to your opinion is not freedom. The smurf company did not trick anyone, they did not force anyone to play. They created a product and attempted to convince peopel to buy it. They did not hide the cost or force the parent to let their child play or buy stuff. You simply disagree with their business model and appear to want to force me to pay to keep others from being dumb. Thats far worse than the original offense.
Solution - start a organization to warn parents. Leave me out of it.
Unfortunately, the US govt thinks it is your mommy. Thus they have to get involved whether your actual mommy is doing her job or not stopping you from buying things you werent supposed to. The FTC needs to stay out of this and let the parents pay for the consequences of not parenting.
Well, I agree with that but a smurf game where a 8 year old kid can spend 1400 bucks is taking things too far.
Yes, it is the parents responsibility but that is highway robbery aimed at kids. The other 2 cases are just silly and the parents should just pay it but the #¤%& smurf game should be taken out of it's misery.
Most F2P games on any media us perfectly fine but we got one case that is a scam, that is more than I payed for my IRL furniture. But the retailer should really have nipped this in the bud, the publisher do have some responsibilities to the consumers.
It would suck if one scamming game would affect the whole genre and stop F2P MMOs as well.
I dont think its too far. No one forced the adult to buy the phone, the kid to play the game. If we dont like something a business does, dont use their products. YOU dont need to tax ME to form some commission to regulate it. Instead of that parent paying for the kids mistake, I have to now pay for some commision to parent the kid.
i would on the other hands say it is your problem becuase its attitudes like yours that encourage companies to keep using these scammy practices, and btw no one is asking for a commision to "parent" kids we are asking a commision to protect the public from irresponsible, unethical and careless companies that feel that anything goes as long as it profits them
edit: i would like to add my statement are not directed at f2p only but all the unregulated and dodgy business going on in the world wide web.
No, its attitudes like yours which dumb down people from protecting their own interests. Companies should be free to do whatever they want except for forcing you to buy their product or breaking a contract.
must poeple would agree that rules and morals or ethics are something that we should all live by , these comapanies needs to live by these standards aswell its what makes our society work , its what the great freedom this country is based on, you erroneously seem to think becuase these are companies they dont seem to have to follow the same rules as the rest of us .
what kinda of world would this be if we were stupid enoug to follow YOUR mistaken ideas. murder is murder wether its done by 1 individual or by a group unified under one name.
just becuase adversity makes us grow and gives us the opportunity to become better than we are doesnt mean u go around scamming, trying to harm or belittle poeple , becuase you believe it will make them stronger and better.
We as a society have rules of conduct that EVRYONE even corporate entities must/should follow
No, we dont. We have a free market which allows people to do what they want so long as they dont infringe on your rights. If you dont like the way a business does business, dont buy their products. That is freedom. Forcing people to adhere to your opinion is not freedom. The smurf company did not trick anyone, they did not force anyone to play. They created a product and attempted to convince peopel to buy it. They did not hide the cost or force the parent to let their child play or buy stuff. You simply disagree with their business model and appear to want to force me to pay to keep others from being dumb. Thats far worse than the original offense.
Solution - start a organization to warn parents. Leave me out of it.
no your missing the point again ,my posts are not just about this single issue that has been brought up in this thread but about all the new forms of business that have started up as a result of new technologies that our law has failed to keep up with, regulation and law wise.
cell phones use to be allowed to charge all these hidden fees (atleast here in canada) , these fees scammed so many people the government had to make a law FORCING cell companies to reveal CLEARLY all that u would be responsonible for when u signed up
meh no one is talking about closing down f2p or making the free market "not free" lmao FREEDOM like anything else needs to be watched closely and protected becuase theres always unscrupulous poeple/corporations that will try and find ways to corrupt it.
furtheremore regulations forcing companies to act responsibly will not make things "worse" for you or anyone else, not anymore than us telling nazis that killing jews was wrong, we wouldnt have it, even though by YOUR arguments we are (boohooo) taking away their rights. sorry if your not smart enough to see this and i have zero respect for your greed and closemindedness
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Those F2P with cash shops that sells items based on chance are basically online casinos (with no payout). Just keep pouring in real cash for a chance at getting something. Case in point, Atlantica's boxes. That's gambling. Those needs to be stopped.
Then there are those F2P that offers real content that can be unlocked with cash. In LoTRO, DDO, and Wizard101 people are buying content in game. So it's like buying a DLC for a single player game. Those F2P's are doing legitimate business.
Excellent point. There are huge differences between F2P games. Some are very consumer friendly. In those games you know what you're paying for, you get what you pay for, there is no gambling real money on a random chance of winning a virtual item and in some cases (e.g. pirate galaxy) if there is a problem with a virtual item you do have rights to a refund. You also get a refund if the item is changed before your limited license period expires.
F2P games that are run ethically have absolutely no worries, imo. On the other hand, some games have apparently been built on a foundation of getting gamers hooked and then screwing them every which way they can, consumer rights be damned. I won't be surprised if the companies behind these games are targetted for some form of legal action.
Frankly it's been a long time coming, but I think other issues have been a priority--e.g. banking scandals and the near collapse of the global economy.
LOL. The subscription-only folks are going to print out, bronze and frame this news item...
Except...it doesn't really have anything to do with free to play and everything to do with mobile applications targetted at consumers who may not have any idea that they are spending real world money while in a game.
Agreeing with lizardbones. Everyone saw "F2P" and we get the whole "F2P vs P2P MMO" crew in here. This was all mobile application stuff, which have different ways of buying items and such IN THE GAME, rather than having to go elsewhere to get currency. Simmer down, kids. No one saying they're going after F2P MMOs (whether you think they should or not).
I reiterate the points made before - parents need to RAISE THEIR KIDS. 'Nuff said.
Maybe you should be asking Richard why he posted the article, then in his "Free Zone" section of this website, where he writes about the Free To Play MMO market. Maybe you should ask Richard why he chose the title he did for his column this week? Then perhaps you should (re-)read the article and see where he touches on how the situation could affect F2P MMOs as well.
You're knocking people for actually discussing something relevant to the article. Seems your perspective is the one out of place here.
That said - your attempt at splitting hairs to distance F2P/Cash Shop MMOs notwithstanding - the concept is the same - be it on a iPad or in a MMO. Both systems are designed to nickel and dime people consistently. Both systems are designed to exploit human impulse - fueling and feeding on people's desire to "have something now instead of later", a few bucks at a time.
Dangle someting in front of someone that you know they'd want, offer it to them for "just a few dollars", make it super easy for them to obtain with only a few taps of a button and, bam... easy sale. Same thing in a F2P MMO... design some obstacle or speed bump deliberately into the game (slow leveling curve, limited storage space, slow travel times, etc...), then dangle a convenient "solution" to it in front of people for "just a few dollars", make it easy for them to obtain - via pre-purchased store points, for example - and bam... few mouse clicks later, sale. Stock your cash shop with a number of such items to entice people with and you have microtransactions in a nutshell.
The apps, and the games that work this way are designed to target this impulse, and watch the $$$ roll in. It is a dishonest practice, in either case, and it was only a matter of time before something more high profile such as this brought it to a head, and now it's going to get the attention it should probably have gotten long ago.
Want to know what's to blame in a word? Greed. It's the greed of the type of people who would utilize a system like this to milk every nickel they can from every person they can... however they can.
It's also heartening to see more people finally getting past the honeymoon phase with the "Free to Pay" system, and seeing it for the sleazy, dishonest and exploitive system it is.
I always have and always will maintain... P2P MMOs that give you full access to everything in the game for a flat monthly fee is an honest way to go about it. The developers have to earn their players sub money month after month by continuing to provide an experience players feel worthwhile, month after month. You pay the same as everyone else, you get access to the same as everyone else, everyone is catered to equally... how much or how little time an individual has to play is that individual's concern.. not the developers'.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
LOL. The subscription-only folks are going to print out, bronze and frame this news item...
Except...it doesn't really have anything to do with free to play and everything to do with mobile applications targetted at consumers who may not have any idea that they are spending real world money while in a game.
Agreeing with lizardbones. Everyone saw "F2P" and we get the whole "F2P vs P2P MMO" crew in here. This was all mobile application stuff, which have different ways of buying items and such IN THE GAME, rather than having to go elsewhere to get currency. Simmer down, kids. No one saying they're going after F2P MMOs (whether you think they should or not).
I reiterate the points made before - parents need to RAISE THEIR KIDS. 'Nuff said.
Maybe you should be asking Richard why he posted the article, then in his "Free Zone" section of this website, where he writes about the Free To Play MMO market. Maybe you should ask Richard why he chose the title he did for his column this week? Then perhaps you should (re-)read the article and see where he touches on how the situation could affect F2P MMOs as well.
You're knocking people for actually discussing something relevant to the article. Seems your perspective is the one out of place here.
That said - your attempt at splitting hairs to distance F2P/Cash Shop MMOs notwithstanding - the concept is the same - be it on a iPad or in a MMO. Both systems are designed to nickel and dime people consistently. Both systems are designed to exploit human impulse - fueling and feeding on people's desire to "have something now instead of later", a few bucks at a time.
Dangle someting in front of someone that you know they'd want, offer it to them for "just a few dollars", make it super easy for them to obtain with only a few taps of a button and, bam... easy sale. Same thing in a F2P MMO... design some obstacle or speed bump deliberately into the game (slow leveling curve, limited storage space, slow travel times, etc...), then dangle a convenient "solution" to it in front of people for "just a few dollars", make it easy for them to obtain - via pre-purchased store points, for example - and bam... few mouse clicks later, sale. Stock your cash shop with a number of such items to entice people with and you have microtransactions in a nutshell.
The apps, and the games that work this way are designed to target this impulse, and watch the $$$ roll in. It is a dishonest practice, in either case, and it was only a matter of time before something more high profile such as this brought it to a head, and now it's going to get the attention it should probably have gotten long ago.
Want to know what's to blame in a word? Greed. It's the greed of the type of people who would utilize a system like this to milk every nickel they can from every person they can... however they can.
It's also heartening to see more people finally getting past the honeymoon phase with the "Free to Pay" system, and seeing it for the sleazy, dishonest and exploitive system it is.
I always have and always will maintain... P2P MMOs that give you full access to everything in the game for a flat monthly fee is an honest way to go about it. The developers have to earn their players sub money month after month by continuing to provide an experience players feel worthwhile, month after month. You pay the same as everyone else, you get access to the same as everyone else, everyone is catered to equally... how much or how little time an individual has to play is that individual's concern.. not the developers'.
yada,yada,yada Greedy company bla,bla,bla not my fault for buying it.
That is all I hear out of the anti-F2P section. Well if you won't take responsibility for your own (or your kids) actions, then you are the problem that keeps them in business. I am sure there are some very shady F2Ps out there, but for the most part they are just COMPANIES trying to make a profit on THEIR hard work on designing a game.
I see no issue with the business model as a whole and have played a couple and was well aware of what it was costing me to PURCHASE extras in the game. I also CHOSE to either make the purchase or not. Some times I would refill/renew items and sometimes I would not depending on MY budget. But at NO time did I feel I was being ripped off by the COMPANY that was providing the F2P. The game was part of that companies product line and I CHOSE to buy some of it and CHOSE not to buy others. If you want to discuss GREED, lets look at COMPANIES that charge for the game box, then a sub fee, AND an item mall...I have more issue with that, then with F2P models.
Take some responsibility for your self and your kids. I you don't like F2P models, then don't play them, but don't blame the COMPANY for offering you a product that you can play for free and then offering other products that you can purchase. It is very hypocritical that YOU don't work for free, but expect game designers to.
LOL. The subscription-only folks are going to print out, bronze and frame this news item...
Except...it doesn't really have anything to do with free to play and everything to do with mobile applications targetted at consumers who may not have any idea that they are spending real world money while in a game.
Agreeing with lizardbones. Everyone saw "F2P" and we get the whole "F2P vs P2P MMO" crew in here. This was all mobile application stuff, which have different ways of buying items and such IN THE GAME, rather than having to go elsewhere to get currency. Simmer down, kids. No one saying they're going after F2P MMOs (whether you think they should or not).
I reiterate the points made before - parents need to RAISE THEIR KIDS. 'Nuff said.
Maybe you should be asking Richard why he posted the article, then in his "Free Zone" section of this website, where he writes about the Free To Play MMO market. Maybe you should ask Richard why he chose the title he did for his column this week? Then perhaps you should (re-)read the article and see where he touches on how the situation could affect F2P MMOs as well.
You're knocking people for actually discussing something relevant to the article. Seems your perspective is the one out of place here.
That said - your attempt at splitting hairs to distance F2P/Cash Shop MMOs notwithstanding - the concept is the same - be it on a iPad or in a MMO. Both systems are designed to nickel and dime people consistently. Both systems are designed to exploit human impulse - fueling and feeding on people's desire to "have something now instead of later", a few bucks at a time.
Dangle someting in front of someone that you know they'd want, offer it to them for "just a few dollars", make it super easy for them to obtain with only a few taps of a button and, bam... easy sale. Same thing in a F2P MMO... design some obstacle or speed bump deliberately into the game (slow leveling curve, limited storage space, slow travel times, etc...), then dangle a convenient "solution" to it in front of people for "just a few dollars", make it easy for them to obtain - via pre-purchased store points, for example - and bam... few mouse clicks later, sale. Stock your cash shop with a number of such items to entice people with and you have microtransactions in a nutshell.
The apps, and the games that work this way are designed to target this impulse, and watch the $$$ roll in. It is a dishonest practice, in either case, and it was only a matter of time before something more high profile such as this brought it to a head, and now it's going to get the attention it should probably have gotten long ago.
Want to know what's to blame in a word? Greed. It's the greed of the type of people who would utilize a system like this to milk every nickel they can from every person they can... however they can.
It's also heartening to see more people finally getting past the honeymoon phase with the "Free to Pay" system, and seeing it for the sleazy, dishonest and exploitive system it is.
I always have and always will maintain... P2P MMOs that give you full access to everything in the game for a flat monthly fee is an honest way to go about it. The developers have to earn their players sub money month after month by continuing to provide an experience players feel worthwhile, month after month. You pay the same as everyone else, you get access to the same as everyone else, everyone is catered to equally... how much or how little time an individual has to play is that individual's concern.. not the developers'.
yada,yada,yada Greedy company bla,bla,bla not my fault for buying it.
That is all I hear out of the anti-F2P section. Well if you won't take responsibility for your own (or your kids) actions, then you are the problem that keeps them in business. I am sure there are some very shady F2Ps out there, but for the most part they are just COMPANIES trying to make a profit on THEIR hard work on designing a game.
I see no issue with the business model as a whole and have played a couple and was well aware of what it was costing me to PURCHASE extras in the game. I also CHOSE to either make the purchase or not. Some times I would refill/renew items and sometimes I would not depending on MY budget. But at NO time did I feel I was being ripped off by the COMPANY that was providing the F2P. The game was part of that companies product line and I CHOSE to buy some of it and CHOSE not to buy others. If you want to discuss GREED, lets look at COMPANIES that charge for the game box, then a sub fee, AND an item mall...I have more issue with that, then with F2P models.
Take some responsibility for your self and your kids. I you don't like F2P models, then don't play them, but don't blame the COMPANY for offering you a product that you can play for free and then offering other products that you can purchase. It is very hypocritical that YOU don't work for free, but expect game designers to.
I don't think what some people are saying, and what you are hearing them say are the same thing tbh. Are people responsible for their choices? Yes. Are parents responsible to supervise their children with regard to their online activities? Yes. Are some F2P models child-friendly and upfront about the true nature of the services people are purchasing? Yes. Should developers who work for companies that run their business this way get an honest days pay for an honest days work? Yes, absolutely. Hopefully you feel that some of your points are being acknowledged here?
At the same time, do some RMT games use misleading language when discussing the so-called purchase of virtual goods? I think so. Do some RMT games intentionally manipulate people to spend more in the item shop by tinkering with the game mechanics to artificially stimulate demand? Probably. Do some RMT games take customers money and give them essentially nothing in return? (e.g. the item may or may not work, it may be deleted at any time, it may be modified at any time, if it is you're totally S.O.L..) Absolutely. Do some RMT games ask children to agree to contracts that they can't possibly understand, and do some of the terms relate to the use of a parents credit card? Unfortunately, yes they most certainly do.
The problem, as I see it, is not the F2P RMT model. As someone pointed out no two RMT games are exactly alike. Some can be very upfront, non-manipulative and child friendly. Others seem to be quite the opposite. If the FTC intervenes, they will be targetting games/services/companies that give RMT a bad name by their unethical business practices. Personally, I don't understand why any gamer would want to defend such practices, and I have no problem with the FTC dropping the hammer if need be.
That is all I hear out of the anti-F2P section. Well if you won't take responsibility for your own (or your kids) actions, then you are the problem that keeps them in business. I am sure there are some very shady F2Ps out there, but for the most part they are just COMPANIES trying to make a profit on THEIR hard work on designing a game.
P2P/Sub MMOs have been making money for over a decade now. A number of them still are. What's your point?
You're arguing a bit of a strawman there. It's not that they're making money that I take issue with. It's the tactics they're using to make that money. If you actually read my post carefully, that should be quite clear.
I see no issue with the business model as a whole and have played a couple and was well aware of what it was costing me to PURCHASE extras in the game. I also CHOSE to either make the purchase or not. Some times I would refill/renew items and sometimes I would not depending on MY budget. But at NO time did I feel I was being ripped off by the COMPANY that was providing the F2P. The game was part of that companies product line and I CHOSE to buy some of it and CHOSE not to buy others. If you want to discuss GREED, lets look at COMPANIES that charge for the game box, then a sub fee, AND an item mall...I have more issue with that, then with F2P models.
Another disingenuous argument.
For starters, I don't agree with cash shops, in any form, in any game, F2P or otherwise; especially not in P2P games where they're already getting subscription money. I agree with you, that could be considered more greedy. You don't excuse poor behavior by pointing to worse behavior elsewhere. Similarly, you don't excuse a shady/greedy payment system in one game by pointing to an even greedier one in another game.
Cash shops are set up to milk potentially far more money from those who would spend the money on them. The type of people who, again, are impulsive and think nothing of spending $5, $10 here and there... before they know it, they've spent far more than they'd ever spend on any standard P2P MMO in a given month, and possibly far more than they were prepared to cover.
Playing a P2P MMO, I know that beyond the initial purchase, I'm only paying $15 or so a month to access the service. Unless I buy multiple accounts and pay multiple subs... it's never going above that, no matter how much I play or how much I want to obtain or achieve in the game. With F2P/Cash Shop setups, there is no ceiling, no limit, to what can be spent... and they're set up to try to get as much as they possibly can out of every single person playing. That's the fundamental difference.
Take some responsibility for your self and your kids. I you don't like F2P models, then don't play them, but don't blame the COMPANY for offering you a product that you can play for free and then offering other products that you can purchase. It is very hypocritical that YOU don't work for free, but expect game designers to.
Again... you're going off on a tangent here. I never even went into the topic of parental responsibility (which I happen to agree with) in my post, so I really don't know why you keep bringing it up as though I did. Further, I don't even have kids. Unless you count cats as children.
I agree with personal responsibility and accountability. I argue that point a lot around here. However, that's not what this is about. It's about the way cash shop systems are set up and how they're intended to work. The two are not the same thing. If I go to a car dealership, I fully expect the salesperson I deal with is trying to sell me a car so he can get a commission and put food on his table. I also accept that it's ultimately my decision - my responsibility - whether I agree to a deal he offers, and how much I agree to. However, that doesnt' mean I have to approve of the tactics he may use, little numbers games or what-not, in trying to get me to pay more than I clearly told him I was willing to.... That's the difference. It's not the "what" of the matter. It's the "how" of the matter.
As for "wanting designers to work for free". Where do I say anything about wanting designers to work for free? Now you're putting words in my mouth. I clearly and openly support the P2P subscription system for MMOs which, incidentally, requires me to pay a monthly sub to keep playing. I don't have the choice of "playing for free" like you would with a F2P.
It's also rather ironic for you to make that statement, considering it's F2P MMOs where people can play the game indefinitely without "spending a dime" and, thus contributing the designers' salaries. Meanwhile, P2P - the system I clearly support - guarantees I'm contributing so long as I want to continue playing because I have to pay a subscription to do so. You seem to have your concepts a bit backwards. Perhaps you should have thought your assertion out a bit more before you made it.
You also conveniently ignore the statements I make of why I don't like the cash shop system; of how it exploits people's impulses, and need to "have things now".
But anyway...
If you want to keep putting up strawmen to tear down, have at it and enjoy yourself. Just don't expect me to play along. When you're ready to have a discussion/debate with me by addressing things I actually have said, though, I'll be happy to continue.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I know I did a quote on you, but most of that wasn't directed at you personally. I went to everyone claiming that F2P is misleading and if ALL the content isn't 100% free it isn't free. I don't personally care for a cash shop either, but that doesn't make it an invalid and/or illegitamate business model. And it can be abused like any other business model.
I see no reason to spend alot of time, effort, and tax payer money to investigate an entire business model. The stickler is going to be the fact that alot of the offenders are overseas and have entirely different laws and standard for business practices. We can try and put political pressure on those foreign governments to change their ways, but I certainly don't feel right pushing our beliefs and standards on the rest of the world. As soon as we do, they will insist that we need to change ours. We have enough problems as it is to start bowing to the beliefs of other contries that are diametrically opposed to ours.
If you run across a F2P (or P2P) that defrauds you for money there are appropiate law enforecement agencies that you can report them to. But to think that we have to power to subjectively take control/punish businesses and internet providers overseas means you don't understand law and international law at all.
As far as the "exploitation" , it is no different than the "impulse items" at your local supermarket or department store. I guess we need a government investigation of the local Walmart.
again, Most of that original "rant/tangant" wasn't directed at all of your comments. Alot of that was addressing those that were confusing F2P products with a whole company. And many had argued that it isn't free is they sell addtional content (product) as well.
As for the strawman comments, you didn't really knock out an fact, just expressed your personal opinion.
I know I did a quote on you, but most of that wasn't directed at you personally. I went to everyone claiming that F2P is misleading and if ALL the content isn't 100% free it isn't free. I don't personally care for a cash shop either, but that doesn't make it an invalid and/or illegitamate business model. And it can be abused like any other business model.
I see no reason to spend alot of time, effort, and tax payer money to investigate an entire business model. The stickler is going to be the fact that alot of the offenders are overseas and have entirely different laws and standard for business practices. We can try and put political pressure on those foreign governments to change their ways, but I certainly don't feel right pushing our beliefs and standards on the rest of the world. As soon as we do, they will insist that we need to change ours. We have enough problems as it is to start bowing to the beliefs of other contries that are diametrically opposed to ours.
If you run across a F2P (or P2P) that defrauds you for money there are appropiate law enforecement agencies that you can report them to. But to think that we have to power to subjectively take control/punish businesses and internet providers overseas means you don't understand law and international law at all.
As far as the "exploitation" , it is no different than the "impulse items" at your local supermarket or department store. I guess we need a government investigation of the local Walmart.
again, Most of that original "rant/tangant" wasn't directed at all of your comments. Alot of that was addressing those that were confusing F2P products with a whole company. And many had argued that it isn't free is they sell addtional content (product) as well.
As for the strawman comments, you didn't really knock out an fact, just expressed your personal opinion.
Unfortunately many of the F2P games that have caused controversy are products of North American companies. So, the whole idea that we might be trying to force our worldview on foreign cultures is a red herring.
Virtual impulse items are not the same as "real" impulse items because in the real world my environment cannot be artificially manipulated to increase demand.
Laws against exploitation, defrauding etc. have been side-stepped by companies claiming that they do not apply because goods and services purchased are "virtual" and as a result--they claim--have no real monetary value. This point in particular is likely something the FTC and legislators want to resolve. If goods "sold" to customers are virtual, does that really mean the customer has no rights? Some North American companies in the EULAs say yes. Customers, of course, say no. Someone needs to mediate this dispute, and this particular dispute falls under the FTC's mandate.
LOL. The subscription-only folks are going to print out, bronze and frame this news item...
Except...it doesn't really have anything to do with free to play and everything to do with mobile applications targetted at consumers who may not have any idea that they are spending real world money while in a game.
Agreeing with lizardbones. Everyone saw "F2P" and we get the whole "F2P vs P2P MMO" crew in here. This was all mobile application stuff, which have different ways of buying items and such IN THE GAME, rather than having to go elsewhere to get currency. Simmer down, kids. No one saying they're going after F2P MMOs (whether you think they should or not).
I reiterate the points made before - parents need to RAISE THEIR KIDS. 'Nuff said.
Maybe you should be asking Richard why he posted the article, then in his "Free Zone" section of this website, where he writes about the Free To Play MMO market. Maybe you should ask Richard why he chose the title he did for his column this week? Then perhaps you should (re-)read the article and see where he touches on how the situation could affect F2P MMOs as well.
You're knocking people for actually discussing something relevant to the article. Seems your perspective is the one out of place here.
That said - your attempt at splitting hairs to distance F2P/Cash Shop MMOs notwithstanding - the concept is the same - be it on a iPad or in a MMO. Both systems are designed to nickel and dime people consistently. Both systems are designed to exploit human impulse - fueling and feeding on people's desire to "have something now instead of later", a few bucks at a time.
Dangle someting in front of someone that you know they'd want, offer it to them for "just a few dollars", make it super easy for them to obtain with only a few taps of a button and, bam... easy sale. Same thing in a F2P MMO... design some obstacle or speed bump deliberately into the game (slow leveling curve, limited storage space, slow travel times, etc...), then dangle a convenient "solution" to it in front of people for "just a few dollars", make it easy for them to obtain - via pre-purchased store points, for example - and bam... few mouse clicks later, sale. Stock your cash shop with a number of such items to entice people with and you have microtransactions in a nutshell.
The apps, and the games that work this way are designed to target this impulse, and watch the $$$ roll in. It is a dishonest practice, in either case, and it was only a matter of time before something more high profile such as this brought it to a head, and now it's going to get the attention it should probably have gotten long ago.
Want to know what's to blame in a word? Greed. It's the greed of the type of people who would utilize a system like this to milk every nickel they can from every person they can... however they can.
It's also heartening to see more people finally getting past the honeymoon phase with the "Free to Pay" system, and seeing it for the sleazy, dishonest and exploitive system it is.
I always have and always will maintain... P2P MMOs that give you full access to everything in the game for a flat monthly fee is an honest way to go about it. The developers have to earn their players sub money month after month by continuing to provide an experience players feel worthwhile, month after month. You pay the same as everyone else, you get access to the same as everyone else, everyone is catered to equally... how much or how little time an individual has to play is that individual's concern.. not the developers'.
If you saw the training material for F2P devs, you'd be even more convinced of your position. They are instructed in how to hook people into a game, create dependence on virtual items for gameplay, relationship-building and even self-worth, and then monetize the crap out of these items--particularly targetting their most avid (i.e. addicted) users. I highlighted this in another thread, and provided a link to an actual training seminar.
Anyone wonder how the eight year old got the credit card and the iPhone to spend 1400 bucks? How about 'inattentive parenting'? My guess is this is one of those "I can buy their love by giving my kids everything" parents, but that's another discussion entirely.
Part of my responsibility as a parent and an adult is to make sure I know what my kids are playing, teaching them how to do appropriate things online, teaching them online safety, checking out and activating appropriate parental controls, and making sure I know where my hard-earned money is going.
We wouldn't need to be investigating F2P about this kind of thing if we as adults didn't abdicate those responsibilities.
If you saw the training material for F2P devs, you'd be even more convinced of your position. They are instructed in how to hook people into a game, create dependence on virtual items for gameplay, relationship-building and even self-worth, and then monetize the crap out of these items--particularly targetting their most avid (i.e. addicted) users. I highlighted this in another thread, and provided a link to an actual training seminar.
I'd be interested in seeing that seminar.
Though, honestly... it really doesn't take a genius to see through the F2P/Microtransaction model. I've played them, I've seen and experienced the diffrence in how they're set up first-hand; the differences in the basic design and in how the games "flow". I've seen how the various obstacles, speed-bumps and overall inconveniences I started to notice building up as I progressed all had convenient "solutions" for sale in the cash shop... xp potions, auto-regen MP and HP charms... and so forth. I noticed how regularly those items were advertised.
I mean, it's *right in your face* what they're pulling. Maybe some people are just so "dazzled" by the word "FREE!" that they don't bother to look any deeper? I really don't know.
Thing is, I don't consider myself any smarter than the average person. I am, perhaps, a bit more skeptical when I see the word "FREE!" flashed in front of my face, and not so willing to take it at face value without digging deeper to see what's really going on behind the curtain.
To that end, I've done my homework, done the math and have reached my conclusion on my own. F2P/Cash Shops are a sleazy, exploitive payment system that are designed solely to milk customers for all they can, as often as they can, without adding anything of actual value to the gameplay experience. Thing is, I'm sure that even with all I've discovered on my own about these shams, there's far more I haven't.
... and that's not even going into how having a cash shop changes and, in my opinion, degrades the fundamental game design of such a MMO. That's a whole other topic for another thread that I could easily go off on.
Note: To those who play the games casually enough to not feel the "need" to buy items, or perhaps simply refuse to... Awesome. It's great that you can do that and still get an enjoyable experience out of it. Believe me, you're not the people the developers are trying to hook. In that way, I obviously don't include such people in my category of people being suckered by this so-called "payment model".
The only games I support in their setup are LoTRO and DDO, and that's only because they offer the option of a subscription, where you can pay your monthly fee, play the game, and not have to worry about cash shops. As I understand it, their micro-transactions are more of an "a la carte" setup for unlocking certain content... so they're not even set up like traditional cash-shops work in many Eastern-developed MMOs. Pay for the content you want to play.. quests, etc... Skip the content you don't. That's a fair system to me. EQ2 still offers subs in some manner as I understand it as well.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Anyone wonder how the eight year old got the credit card and the iPhone to spend 1400 bucks? How about 'inattentive parenting'? My guess is this is one of those "I can buy their love by giving my kids everything" parents, but that's another discussion entirely.
Part of my responsibility as a parent and an adult is to make sure I know what my kids are playing, teaching them how to do appropriate things online, teaching them online safety, checking out and activating appropriate parental controls, and making sure I know where my hard-earned money is going.
We wouldn't need to be investigating F2P about this kind of thing if we as adults didn't abdicate those responsibilities.
Absolutely. I don't think you're going to see much argument in the "where were the parents?" dept.
Thing is, the topic goes deeper than that, and does go back to the system itself... How is it that such a thing was possible in the first place, without some kind of safeguards in place?
The other important point is that such apps as the Smurfs one in question or, their "cousins" in the interactive world, F2P MMOs - are set up to not only allow such things to happen... but to practically encourage it. That it happened to be a child in this case is what got it the attention. However, similar situations are playing out among adults as well.
But hey... if the FTC does indeed investigate it... they could well decide there was nothing inherently "bad" about the situation, and it was simply an aberrant incident of a child cutting loose on their parents' credit card... and leave it at that. If that was the outcome, I'm sure people would be on roof-tops saying "a ha! The FTC investigated and saw nothing wrong with it!"
It's only the more likely outcome of negative findings that, I think, has people so upset over it.
If they're doing nothing wrong, then they have nothing to worry about, right?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
If you saw the training material for F2P devs, you'd be even more convinced of your position. They are instructed in how to hook people into a game, create dependence on virtual items for gameplay, relationship-building and even self-worth, and then monetize the crap out of these items--particularly targetting their most avid (i.e. addicted) users. I highlighted this in another thread, and provided a link to an actual training seminar.
I'd be interested in seeing that seminar.
Though, honestly... it really doesn't take a genius to see through the F2P/Microtransaction model. I've played them, I've seen and experienced the diffrence in how they're set up first-hand; the differences in the basic design and in how the games "flow". I've seen how the various obstacles, speed-bumps and overall inconveniences I started to notice building up as I progressed all had convenient "solutions" for sale in the cash shop... xp potions, auto-regen MP and HP charms... and so forth. I noticed how regularly those items were advertised.
I mean, it's *right in your face* what they're pulling. Maybe some people are just so "dazzled" by the word "FREE!" that they don't bother to look any deeper? I really don't know.
Thing is, I don't consider myself any smarter than the average person. I am, perhaps, a bit more skeptical when I see the word "FREE!" flashed in front of my face, and not so willing to take it at face value without digging deeper to see what's really going on behind the curtain.
To that end, I've done my homework, done the math and have reached my conclusion on my own. F2P/Cash Shops are a sleazy, exploitive payment system that are designed solely to milk customers for all they can, as often as they can, without adding anything of actual value to the gameplay experience. Thing is, I'm sure that even with all I've discovered on my own about these shams, there's far more I haven't.
... and that's not even going into how having a cash shop changes and, in my opinion, degrades the fundamental game design of such a MMO. That's a whole other topic for another thread that I could easily go off on.
Note: To those who play the games casually enough to not feel the "need" to buy items, or perhaps simply refuse to... Awesome. It's great that you can do that and still get an enjoyable experience out of it. Believe me, you're not the people the developers are trying to hook. In that way, I obviously don't include such people in my category of people being suckered by this so-called "payment model".
The only games I support in their setup are LoTRO and DDO, and that's only because they offer the option of a subscription, where you can pay your monthly fee, play the game, and not have to worry about cash shops. As I understand it, their micro-transactions are more of an "a la carte" setup for unlocking certain content... so they're not even set up like traditional cash-shops work in many Eastern-developed MMOs. Pay for the content you want to play.. quests, etc... Skip the content you don't. That's a fair system to me. EQ2 still offers subs in some manner as I understand it as well.
Awesome. Thank you for providing that. I watched that one and one other that was related to it, about the same topic... how to "monetize" players via virtual goods...
A few slides really tell the whole story and, pretty much, make the case for folks like myself who see the whole RMT/cash shop/virtual goods thing for what it is. Several of them reiterate statements I made earlier in this thread, and indeed in other threads on this topic... before I even ever saw the presentations. Again, it's right in people's faces... all they need to do is actually take off the "FREE!!"-colored goggles and see what these scheisters are really pulling with us.
I wish I could find it, as I've tried several times without success, but there's a video right on MMORPG.com of a panel they hosted with some folks in the industry. It's a 3 part series and I remember that Paul Barnett (Mythic) was one of the panelists. Anyway, at one point one of the panelists states, straight out, that mt's allow developers to monetize their players for far more than they could get with a $15 subscription. Again, he's summing it up in a sentence..
These people are not trying to provide fun, immersive and engaging virtual worlds for players to engage in that they'll want to stick with month after month.... No, no. They're analyzing statistics and figuring out the best virtual goods to place in front of people to "monetize" them more effectively, for a better return. It also illustrates why F2P MMOs are designed entirely differently at the most basic level. The main goal of their design is to figure out the best way to get more people to open their wallets more often.
This is the kind of crap they're pulling with adults, every day, all day long. It's no surprise at all that a child would fall for it hook, line and sinker such as the one in Aihoshi's column. The child at least has the excuse of not being able to see or understand what's going on, or the mechanisms behind it.
Call me crazy, but I prefer to play games and would much prefer game developers go back to, you know... developing games that people will want to play. I have no interest in being part of someone's attempts to "more effectively monetize"... also known as nickel and diming. Just provide me a fun and engaging virtual world to spend my time in with plenty to do, and I'll happily pay the initial box fee and my monthly sub. No "virtual goods to make me feel socially special" required.
The really sad post-script to all this, is that there are people who will see the evidence, see what's going on, see how these "games" are designed from the ground up to exploit people (as shown in the presentation you linked, and elsewhere), and still argue that there's nothing shady going on. It's like the people who continue to argue that RMT gold farmers are doing nothing wrong and it's no one else's business if they want to sell gold in a game. Meanwhile the farmers work for RMT companies who consistently work to get keyloggers on to people's systems so they can compromise their accounts, sell off their gear, empty out their bank vaults, delete their characters, etc... to obtain more gold to sell to the folks who continue to argue that it's their business if they buy gold and it's not affecting anyone else.
I fully expect a follow-up article to this one doing some damage control by re-asserting the whole "people who knock it are just closed-minded and don't understand F2P games". Because, despite increasing evidence to the contrary, that's really the case, right Mr. Aihoshi?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Awesome. Thank you for providing that. I watched that one and one other that was related to it, about the same topic... how to "monetize" players via virtual goods...
A few slides really tell the whole story and, pretty much, make the case for folks like myself who see the whole RMT/cash shop/virtual goods thing for what it is. Several of them reiterate statements I made earlier in this thread, and indeed in other threads on this topic... before I even ever saw the presentations. Again, it's right in people's faces... all they need to do is actually take off the "FREE!!"-colored goggles and see what these scheisters are really pulling with us.
I wish I could find it, as I've tried several times without success, but there's a video right on MMORPG.com of a panel they hosted with some folks in the industry. It's a 3 part series and I remember that Paul Barnett (Mythic) was one of the panelists. Anyway, at one point one of the panelists states, straight out, that mt's allow developers to monetize their players for far more than they could get with a $15 subscription. Again, he's summing it up in a sentence..
These people are not trying to provide fun, immersive and engaging virtual worlds for players to engage in that they'll want to stick with month after month.... No, no. They're analyzing statistics and figuring out the best virtual goods to place in front of people to "monetize" them more effectively, for a better return. It also illustrates why F2P MMOs are designed entirely differently at the most basic level. The main goal of their design is to figure out the best way to get more people to open their wallets more often.
This is the kind of crap they're pulling with adults, every day, all day long. It's no surprise at all that a child would fall for it hook, line and sinker such as the one in Aihoshi's column. The child at least has the excuse of not being able to see or understand what's going on, or the mechanisms behind it.
Call me crazy, but I prefer to play games and would much prefer game developers go back to, you know... developing games that people will want to play. I have no interest in being part of someone's attempts to "more effectively monetize"... also known as nickel and diming. Just provide me a fun and engaging virtual world to spend my time in with plenty to do, and I'll happily pay the initial box fee and my monthly sub. No "virtual goods to make me feel socially special" required.
The really sad post-script to all this, is that there are people who will see the evidence, see what's going on, see how these "games" are designed from the ground up to exploit people (as shown in the presentation you linked, and elsewhere), and still argue that there's nothing shady going on. It's like the people who continue to argue that RMT gold farmers are doing nothing wrong and it's no one else's business if they want to sell gold in a game. Meanwhile the farmers work for RMT companies who consistently work to get keyloggers on to people's systems so they can compromise their accounts, sell off their gear, empty out their bank vaults, delete their characters, etc... to obtain more gold to sell to the folks who continue to argue that it's their business if they buy gold and it's not affecting anyone else.
I fully expect a follow-up article to this one doing some damage control by re-asserting the whole "people who knock it are just closed-minded and don't understand F2P games". Because, despite increasing evidence to the contrary, that's really the case, right Mr. Aihoshi?
Yes I've read interviews with other "industry leaders" where they talk about how to essentially soak people via RMT business models. As you say, their primary focus hasn't been providing entertainment or a quality gaming experience. It's been how to hook people with their business model and take them for as much as they possibly can. Nasty, nasty business.
If someone is unwise enough to take the bait, are they responsible for their actions? Well, we're always responsible for the choices we make, but so are those who go to great lengths to bait the hook and reel us in. Should the RMT industry be completely unmonitored and unregulated? If it is, I guess it would be the only industry like it in our free market economy. Business transactions need parameters that can be legally enforced, or someone's going to get badly screwed.
If someone wants to use the FTP tag for any game then under no circumstance should that game be allowed to take credit card information from a customer as part of the game set-up.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
If someone wants to use the FTP tag for any game then under no circumstance should that game be allowed to take credit card information from a customer as part of the game set-up.
Excellent point and very relevant to MMOs. You used to login to a virtual world (MMO) go to a virtual store, pay virtual cash and receive virtual goods. It was all part of the entertainment experience.
Now, however, you login to a virtual world, go to a virtual store, and pay real cash for virtual goods. Something very significant has changed.
Also, after you pay real cash for your virtual item, the company that "sold" it to you immediately claims that the item you just bought has no monetary value, therefore your consumer rights are null and void.
Anyone who can't see a number of problems with the new scenario should probably look harder. Heh, well either that or you're one of the people raking in the dough from the new scenario. In which case I can understand you defending it so vigorously.
Comments
Advertising that they have free candy is not the same as if they called their store "ABC Store: The Free Candy Store"
I dont think its too far. No one forced the adult to buy the phone, the kid to play the game. If we dont like something a business does, dont use their products. YOU dont need to tax ME to form some commission to regulate it. Instead of that parent paying for the kids mistake, I have to now pay for some commision to parent the kid.
i would on the other hands say it is your problem becuase its attitudes like yours that encourage companies to keep using these scammy practices, and btw no one is asking for a commision to "parent" kids we are asking a commision to protect the public from irresponsible, unethical and careless companies that feel that anything goes as long as it profits them
edit: i would like to add my statement are not directed at f2p only but all the unregulated and dodgy business going on in the world wide web.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
No, its attitudes like yours which dumb down people from protecting their own interests. Companies should be free to do whatever they want except for forcing you to buy their product or breaking a contract.
Your right, and they are "XYZ game company" with "ABC F2P game".
No you are confusing the F2P product with the COMPANY that created it and offers it. It isn't a F2P company, It is a F2P product that the COMPANY offers. They are advertising their F2P game.
must poeple would agree that rules and morals or ethics are something that we should all live by , these comapanies needs to live by these standards aswell its what makes our society work , its what the great freedom this country is based on, you erroneously seem to think becuase these are companies they dont seem to have to follow the same rules as the rest of us .
what kinda of world would this be if we were stupid enough to follow YOUR mistaken ideas. murder is murder wether its done by 1 individual or by a group unified under one name.
just becuase adversity makes us grow and gives us the opportunity to become better than we are doesnt mean u go around scamming, trying to harm or belittle poeple , becuase you believe it will make them stronger and better.
We as a society have rules of conduct that EVRYONE even corporate entities must/should follow
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
No, we dont. We have a free market which allows people to do what they want so long as they dont infringe on your rights. If you dont like the way a business does business, dont buy their products. That is freedom. Forcing people to adhere to your opinion is not freedom. The smurf company did not trick anyone, they did not force anyone to play. They created a product and attempted to convince peopel to buy it. They did not hide the cost or force the parent to let their child play or buy stuff. You simply disagree with their business model and appear to want to force me to pay to keep others from being dumb. Thats far worse than the original offense.
Solution - start a organization to warn parents. Leave me out of it.
no your missing the point again ,my posts are not just about this single issue that has been brought up in this thread but about all the new forms of business that have started up as a result of new technologies that our law has failed to keep up with, regulation and law wise.
cell phones use to be allowed to charge all these hidden fees (atleast here in canada) , these fees scammed so many people the government had to make a law FORCING cell companies to reveal CLEARLY all that u would be responsonible for when u signed up
meh no one is talking about closing down f2p or making the free market "not free" lmao FREEDOM like anything else needs to be watched closely and protected becuase theres always unscrupulous poeple/corporations that will try and find ways to corrupt it.
furtheremore regulations forcing companies to act responsibly will not make things "worse" for you or anyone else, not anymore than us telling nazis that killing jews was wrong, we wouldnt have it, even though by YOUR arguments we are (boohooo) taking away their rights. sorry if your not smart enough to see this and i have zero respect for your greed and closemindedness
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Excellent point. There are huge differences between F2P games. Some are very consumer friendly. In those games you know what you're paying for, you get what you pay for, there is no gambling real money on a random chance of winning a virtual item and in some cases (e.g. pirate galaxy) if there is a problem with a virtual item you do have rights to a refund. You also get a refund if the item is changed before your limited license period expires.
F2P games that are run ethically have absolutely no worries, imo. On the other hand, some games have apparently been built on a foundation of getting gamers hooked and then screwing them every which way they can, consumer rights be damned. I won't be surprised if the companies behind these games are targetted for some form of legal action.
Frankly it's been a long time coming, but I think other issues have been a priority--e.g. banking scandals and the near collapse of the global economy.
Maybe you should be asking Richard why he posted the article, then in his "Free Zone" section of this website, where he writes about the Free To Play MMO market. Maybe you should ask Richard why he chose the title he did for his column this week? Then perhaps you should (re-)read the article and see where he touches on how the situation could affect F2P MMOs as well.
You're knocking people for actually discussing something relevant to the article. Seems your perspective is the one out of place here.
That said - your attempt at splitting hairs to distance F2P/Cash Shop MMOs notwithstanding - the concept is the same - be it on a iPad or in a MMO. Both systems are designed to nickel and dime people consistently. Both systems are designed to exploit human impulse - fueling and feeding on people's desire to "have something now instead of later", a few bucks at a time.
Dangle someting in front of someone that you know they'd want, offer it to them for "just a few dollars", make it super easy for them to obtain with only a few taps of a button and, bam... easy sale. Same thing in a F2P MMO... design some obstacle or speed bump deliberately into the game (slow leveling curve, limited storage space, slow travel times, etc...), then dangle a convenient "solution" to it in front of people for "just a few dollars", make it easy for them to obtain - via pre-purchased store points, for example - and bam... few mouse clicks later, sale. Stock your cash shop with a number of such items to entice people with and you have microtransactions in a nutshell.
The apps, and the games that work this way are designed to target this impulse, and watch the $$$ roll in. It is a dishonest practice, in either case, and it was only a matter of time before something more high profile such as this brought it to a head, and now it's going to get the attention it should probably have gotten long ago.
Want to know what's to blame in a word? Greed. It's the greed of the type of people who would utilize a system like this to milk every nickel they can from every person they can... however they can.
It's also heartening to see more people finally getting past the honeymoon phase with the "Free to Pay" system, and seeing it for the sleazy, dishonest and exploitive system it is.
I always have and always will maintain... P2P MMOs that give you full access to everything in the game for a flat monthly fee is an honest way to go about it. The developers have to earn their players sub money month after month by continuing to provide an experience players feel worthwhile, month after month. You pay the same as everyone else, you get access to the same as everyone else, everyone is catered to equally... how much or how little time an individual has to play is that individual's concern.. not the developers'.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
yada,yada,yada Greedy company bla,bla,bla not my fault for buying it.
That is all I hear out of the anti-F2P section. Well if you won't take responsibility for your own (or your kids) actions, then you are the problem that keeps them in business. I am sure there are some very shady F2Ps out there, but for the most part they are just COMPANIES trying to make a profit on THEIR hard work on designing a game.
I see no issue with the business model as a whole and have played a couple and was well aware of what it was costing me to PURCHASE extras in the game. I also CHOSE to either make the purchase or not. Some times I would refill/renew items and sometimes I would not depending on MY budget. But at NO time did I feel I was being ripped off by the COMPANY that was providing the F2P. The game was part of that companies product line and I CHOSE to buy some of it and CHOSE not to buy others. If you want to discuss GREED, lets look at COMPANIES that charge for the game box, then a sub fee, AND an item mall...I have more issue with that, then with F2P models.
Take some responsibility for your self and your kids. I you don't like F2P models, then don't play them, but don't blame the COMPANY for offering you a product that you can play for free and then offering other products that you can purchase. It is very hypocritical that YOU don't work for free, but expect game designers to.
I don't think what some people are saying, and what you are hearing them say are the same thing tbh. Are people responsible for their choices? Yes. Are parents responsible to supervise their children with regard to their online activities? Yes. Are some F2P models child-friendly and upfront about the true nature of the services people are purchasing? Yes. Should developers who work for companies that run their business this way get an honest days pay for an honest days work? Yes, absolutely. Hopefully you feel that some of your points are being acknowledged here?
At the same time, do some RMT games use misleading language when discussing the so-called purchase of virtual goods? I think so. Do some RMT games intentionally manipulate people to spend more in the item shop by tinkering with the game mechanics to artificially stimulate demand? Probably. Do some RMT games take customers money and give them essentially nothing in return? (e.g. the item may or may not work, it may be deleted at any time, it may be modified at any time, if it is you're totally S.O.L..) Absolutely. Do some RMT games ask children to agree to contracts that they can't possibly understand, and do some of the terms relate to the use of a parents credit card? Unfortunately, yes they most certainly do.
The problem, as I see it, is not the F2P RMT model. As someone pointed out no two RMT games are exactly alike. Some can be very upfront, non-manipulative and child friendly. Others seem to be quite the opposite. If the FTC intervenes, they will be targetting games/services/companies that give RMT a bad name by their unethical business practices. Personally, I don't understand why any gamer would want to defend such practices, and I have no problem with the FTC dropping the hammer if need be.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
@WSIMike
I know I did a quote on you, but most of that wasn't directed at you personally. I went to everyone claiming that F2P is misleading and if ALL the content isn't 100% free it isn't free. I don't personally care for a cash shop either, but that doesn't make it an invalid and/or illegitamate business model. And it can be abused like any other business model.
I see no reason to spend alot of time, effort, and tax payer money to investigate an entire business model. The stickler is going to be the fact that alot of the offenders are overseas and have entirely different laws and standard for business practices. We can try and put political pressure on those foreign governments to change their ways, but I certainly don't feel right pushing our beliefs and standards on the rest of the world. As soon as we do, they will insist that we need to change ours. We have enough problems as it is to start bowing to the beliefs of other contries that are diametrically opposed to ours.
If you run across a F2P (or P2P) that defrauds you for money there are appropiate law enforecement agencies that you can report them to. But to think that we have to power to subjectively take control/punish businesses and internet providers overseas means you don't understand law and international law at all.
As far as the "exploitation" , it is no different than the "impulse items" at your local supermarket or department store. I guess we need a government investigation of the local Walmart.
again, Most of that original "rant/tangant" wasn't directed at all of your comments. Alot of that was addressing those that were confusing F2P products with a whole company. And many had argued that it isn't free is they sell addtional content (product) as well.
As for the strawman comments, you didn't really knock out an fact, just expressed your personal opinion.
Unfortunately many of the F2P games that have caused controversy are products of North American companies. So, the whole idea that we might be trying to force our worldview on foreign cultures is a red herring.
Virtual impulse items are not the same as "real" impulse items because in the real world my environment cannot be artificially manipulated to increase demand.
Laws against exploitation, defrauding etc. have been side-stepped by companies claiming that they do not apply because goods and services purchased are "virtual" and as a result--they claim--have no real monetary value. This point in particular is likely something the FTC and legislators want to resolve. If goods "sold" to customers are virtual, does that really mean the customer has no rights? Some North American companies in the EULAs say yes. Customers, of course, say no. Someone needs to mediate this dispute, and this particular dispute falls under the FTC's mandate.
If you saw the training material for F2P devs, you'd be even more convinced of your position. They are instructed in how to hook people into a game, create dependence on virtual items for gameplay, relationship-building and even self-worth, and then monetize the crap out of these items--particularly targetting their most avid (i.e. addicted) users. I highlighted this in another thread, and provided a link to an actual training seminar.
Anyone wonder how the eight year old got the credit card and the iPhone to spend 1400 bucks? How about 'inattentive parenting'? My guess is this is one of those "I can buy their love by giving my kids everything" parents, but that's another discussion entirely.
Part of my responsibility as a parent and an adult is to make sure I know what my kids are playing, teaching them how to do appropriate things online, teaching them online safety, checking out and activating appropriate parental controls, and making sure I know where my hard-earned money is going.
We wouldn't need to be investigating F2P about this kind of thing if we as adults didn't abdicate those responsibilities.
I'd be interested in seeing that seminar.
Though, honestly... it really doesn't take a genius to see through the F2P/Microtransaction model. I've played them, I've seen and experienced the diffrence in how they're set up first-hand; the differences in the basic design and in how the games "flow". I've seen how the various obstacles, speed-bumps and overall inconveniences I started to notice building up as I progressed all had convenient "solutions" for sale in the cash shop... xp potions, auto-regen MP and HP charms... and so forth. I noticed how regularly those items were advertised.
I mean, it's *right in your face* what they're pulling. Maybe some people are just so "dazzled" by the word "FREE!" that they don't bother to look any deeper? I really don't know.
Thing is, I don't consider myself any smarter than the average person. I am, perhaps, a bit more skeptical when I see the word "FREE!" flashed in front of my face, and not so willing to take it at face value without digging deeper to see what's really going on behind the curtain.
To that end, I've done my homework, done the math and have reached my conclusion on my own. F2P/Cash Shops are a sleazy, exploitive payment system that are designed solely to milk customers for all they can, as often as they can, without adding anything of actual value to the gameplay experience. Thing is, I'm sure that even with all I've discovered on my own about these shams, there's far more I haven't.
... and that's not even going into how having a cash shop changes and, in my opinion, degrades the fundamental game design of such a MMO. That's a whole other topic for another thread that I could easily go off on.
Note: To those who play the games casually enough to not feel the "need" to buy items, or perhaps simply refuse to... Awesome. It's great that you can do that and still get an enjoyable experience out of it. Believe me, you're not the people the developers are trying to hook. In that way, I obviously don't include such people in my category of people being suckered by this so-called "payment model".
The only games I support in their setup are LoTRO and DDO, and that's only because they offer the option of a subscription, where you can pay your monthly fee, play the game, and not have to worry about cash shops. As I understand it, their micro-transactions are more of an "a la carte" setup for unlocking certain content... so they're not even set up like traditional cash-shops work in many Eastern-developed MMOs. Pay for the content you want to play.. quests, etc... Skip the content you don't. That's a fair system to me. EQ2 still offers subs in some manner as I understand it as well.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Absolutely. I don't think you're going to see much argument in the "where were the parents?" dept.
Thing is, the topic goes deeper than that, and does go back to the system itself... How is it that such a thing was possible in the first place, without some kind of safeguards in place?
The other important point is that such apps as the Smurfs one in question or, their "cousins" in the interactive world, F2P MMOs - are set up to not only allow such things to happen... but to practically encourage it. That it happened to be a child in this case is what got it the attention. However, similar situations are playing out among adults as well.
But hey... if the FTC does indeed investigate it... they could well decide there was nothing inherently "bad" about the situation, and it was simply an aberrant incident of a child cutting loose on their parents' credit card... and leave it at that. If that was the outcome, I'm sure people would be on roof-tops saying "a ha! The FTC investigated and saw nothing wrong with it!"
It's only the more likely outcome of negative findings that, I think, has people so upset over it.
If they're doing nothing wrong, then they have nothing to worry about, right?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Here's a link to one presentation I saw re. RMT:
http://www.slideshare.net/amyjokim/virtual-goods-why-how-they-work
Awesome. Thank you for providing that. I watched that one and one other that was related to it, about the same topic... how to "monetize" players via virtual goods...
A few slides really tell the whole story and, pretty much, make the case for folks like myself who see the whole RMT/cash shop/virtual goods thing for what it is. Several of them reiterate statements I made earlier in this thread, and indeed in other threads on this topic... before I even ever saw the presentations. Again, it's right in people's faces... all they need to do is actually take off the "FREE!!"-colored goggles and see what these scheisters are really pulling with us.
I wish I could find it, as I've tried several times without success, but there's a video right on MMORPG.com of a panel they hosted with some folks in the industry. It's a 3 part series and I remember that Paul Barnett (Mythic) was one of the panelists. Anyway, at one point one of the panelists states, straight out, that mt's allow developers to monetize their players for far more than they could get with a $15 subscription. Again, he's summing it up in a sentence..
These people are not trying to provide fun, immersive and engaging virtual worlds for players to engage in that they'll want to stick with month after month.... No, no. They're analyzing statistics and figuring out the best virtual goods to place in front of people to "monetize" them more effectively, for a better return. It also illustrates why F2P MMOs are designed entirely differently at the most basic level. The main goal of their design is to figure out the best way to get more people to open their wallets more often.
This is the kind of crap they're pulling with adults, every day, all day long. It's no surprise at all that a child would fall for it hook, line and sinker such as the one in Aihoshi's column. The child at least has the excuse of not being able to see or understand what's going on, or the mechanisms behind it.
Call me crazy, but I prefer to play games and would much prefer game developers go back to, you know... developing games that people will want to play. I have no interest in being part of someone's attempts to "more effectively monetize"... also known as nickel and diming. Just provide me a fun and engaging virtual world to spend my time in with plenty to do, and I'll happily pay the initial box fee and my monthly sub. No "virtual goods to make me feel socially special" required.
The really sad post-script to all this, is that there are people who will see the evidence, see what's going on, see how these "games" are designed from the ground up to exploit people (as shown in the presentation you linked, and elsewhere), and still argue that there's nothing shady going on. It's like the people who continue to argue that RMT gold farmers are doing nothing wrong and it's no one else's business if they want to sell gold in a game. Meanwhile the farmers work for RMT companies who consistently work to get keyloggers on to people's systems so they can compromise their accounts, sell off their gear, empty out their bank vaults, delete their characters, etc... to obtain more gold to sell to the folks who continue to argue that it's their business if they buy gold and it's not affecting anyone else.
I fully expect a follow-up article to this one doing some damage control by re-asserting the whole "people who knock it are just closed-minded and don't understand F2P games". Because, despite increasing evidence to the contrary, that's really the case, right Mr. Aihoshi?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Yes I've read interviews with other "industry leaders" where they talk about how to essentially soak people via RMT business models. As you say, their primary focus hasn't been providing entertainment or a quality gaming experience. It's been how to hook people with their business model and take them for as much as they possibly can. Nasty, nasty business.
If someone is unwise enough to take the bait, are they responsible for their actions? Well, we're always responsible for the choices we make, but so are those who go to great lengths to bait the hook and reel us in. Should the RMT industry be completely unmonitored and unregulated? If it is, I guess it would be the only industry like it in our free market economy. Business transactions need parameters that can be legally enforced, or someone's going to get badly screwed.
I think its a fair cop get the FTC involved.
If someone wants to use the FTP tag for any game then under no circumstance should that game be allowed to take credit card information from a customer as part of the game set-up.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Excellent point and very relevant to MMOs. You used to login to a virtual world (MMO) go to a virtual store, pay virtual cash and receive virtual goods. It was all part of the entertainment experience.
Now, however, you login to a virtual world, go to a virtual store, and pay real cash for virtual goods. Something very significant has changed.
Also, after you pay real cash for your virtual item, the company that "sold" it to you immediately claims that the item you just bought has no monetary value, therefore your consumer rights are null and void.
Anyone who can't see a number of problems with the new scenario should probably look harder. Heh, well either that or you're one of the people raking in the dough from the new scenario. In which case I can understand you defending it so vigorously.