In my opinion forever. Character's advancement is the a-z to an rpg and mmorpg.
So how u do it?
1.Gear : wow's way.every once ina whiule tehy throw a patch or expansion raising item lvl's drops so your actual lvl is raised
2.Infinite lvl up: I said it in an old post and i ll keep saying it. Its the only way to keep your intrest on your character with having to re-roll to alts. How u do it? Easy... Zounds of xp needed for lvling up from example 85 lvl to 86 ..even more zounds xp needed to go to 87 ...etcetc so ppl will just do what they are doing dungeons pvp tournaments adventuring ,forgetting simply to farm xp simply cause its so hard to raise lvls after a certain point. But no exclude it completely.. That also means that someone that played his character in thsi game over 2 years will maybe be 2-3 lvls higher than someone that plays the game for 3-4 months.And that way u wont have to be gear dependent that much.
In my opinion forever. Character's advancement is the a-z to an rpg and mmorpg.
So how u do it?
1.Gear : wow's way.every once ina whiule tehy throw a patch or expansion raising item lvl's drops so your actual lvl is raised
2.Infinite lvl up: I said it in an old post and i ll keep saying it. Its the only way to keep your intrest on your character with having to re-roll to alts. How u do it? Easy... Zounds of xp needed for lvling up from example 85 lvl to 86 ..even more zounds xp needed to go to 87 ...etcetc so ppl will just do what they are doing dungeons pvp tournaments adventuring ,forgetting simply to farm xp simply cause its so hard to raise lvls after a certain point. But no exclude it completely.. That also means that someone that played his character in thsi game over 2 years will maybe be 2-3 lvls higher than someone that plays the game for 3-4 months.And that way u wont have to be gear dependent that much.
I think 2 is the only way to go. Gear is gear, it is NOT character advancement.
In my personal opinion..MMOs are a little too top heavy at the moment. I wish there was more character advancement during leveling instead of cramming it all into the end game. Just my opinion though because I find questing more fun than end game raiding. I can't be the only person who wishes they were on an alt during raids :P
I'm of the opinion that character advancement should last as long as you want players to keep playing the game. There are many ways to advance other than just level/skills/gear/etc.
For me, advancing my character in some way, shape, form, or manner is what keeps me playing when my friends aren't online. Friends/Community are the only other reason I play online games.
I enjoyed the OP's writeup. I haven't gotten a chance to read all the posts in this thread yet, but I intend to, and I'll add more relevant replies accordingly. For now I just wish to add one sociological tidbit:
Viewing MMOs as escapist entertainment, character progression is the driving addictive force behind them. In a raging capitalistic society where the common person may feel rather helpless and generally unproductive, escaping into a world where you advance at a noticable rate, where your character grows, improvies and becomes stronger relative to the rest of the world, where your increase in power is virtually tangible, can be quite a powerful experience. I'm certainly not saying that everyone fits this model, but I believe many do. I know I came to these conclusions first by objectively analyzing my own sense of achievement that I've experienced in MMOs. In a good MMO, I feel like I am constantly accomplishing small goals...and it feels rewarding. This exists in offline RPGs as well, but not nearly to the same extent. Accomplishing these goals in a persistent world where other players can witness them makes all the difference.
If you diminish this strongly addictive element of progression, if you questing through a zone JUST about experiencing the story elements of the quests, I think a great many players will simply not quest through that zone.
it's hard to keep players happy because, imo, players are more idiots in MMOs than they used to be. It's quite impossible for a company to have enough content to please people because everyone is so wanting to reach endcap asap. Take RIFT for example, already lvl 50 people who just rushed through the game, instead of enjoying it, who will become bored quick because all they do is play MMOs and thats it. Sandbox mmos help a little more since they try and not be level based, especialyl the pvp ones, again imo. I wish every mmo player would just sit back and enjoy the game, explore, and then have a life and go out and do something instead of sit inside and hit levelcap within a week to only bitch that the game sucks because they rushed. thats only my opinion, and i'm right
You cannot tell people how to enjoy their game. You like taking it slow but others like to race, as they are more competetive.
It is up to the devs to make sure both playstyles are supported, or they risk losing a group of players. But you can never tell someone how to enjoy a game, they will simply just leave instead.
I never told anyone how to enjoy a game and how to play it. Only stating that it is annoying to hear people complain about 'lack of content' when they zipped through in only a matter of weeks. MMO companies don't have billions and cannot roll out content as players want them too. If a person is going to zip through a game and then complain about how there is no content then they are, kinda, an idiot.
In my opinion forever. Character's advancement is the a-z to an rpg and mmorpg.
So how u do it?
1.Gear : wow's way.every once ina whiule tehy throw a patch or expansion raising item lvl's drops so your actual lvl is raised
2.Infinite lvl up: I said it in an old post and i ll keep saying it. Its the only way to keep your intrest on your character with having to re-roll to alts. How u do it? Easy... Zounds of xp needed for lvling up from example 85 lvl to 86 ..even more zounds xp needed to go to 87 ...etcetc so ppl will just do what they are doing dungeons pvp tournaments adventuring ,forgetting simply to farm xp simply cause its so hard to raise lvls after a certain point. But no exclude it completely.. That also means that someone that played his character in thsi game over 2 years will maybe be 2-3 lvls higher than someone that plays the game for 3-4 months.And that way u wont have to be gear dependent that much.
I think 2 is the only way to go. Gear is gear, it is NOT character advancement.
I don't agree. The +1 STR is on my char regardless of 'where' it is.
Old school D&D had a similar mechanic if your char didn't get up to the 'epic' level (or your DM didn't do epic levels) in that you advanced through gear.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Personally I am tired/weary of gamers of other genres trying to make mmorpgs into those other genres. Getting developers to dumb down the concept of risk/reward, removing "most" of the journey that is supposed to be a part of the fun of playing a mmorpg. Players who play first person shooters don't want character developement, role-play, they want to get to one thing, player vs player competition. nothing wrong with that, but they shouldn't keep trying to make mmorpgs into a variation of a FPS.
Like life, mmorpgs are about the journey, not the destination. Experiencing, exploring, interacting, strife, achieving, things of this nature that take time and investment in order to achieve. When you have to put time and effort into something, the achievements, goals or rewards mean alot more. These things have all become very diminished in recent years due to how game designers design games to fit what players of other genres who know play mmorpgs want.
You actually illustrate the problem, however untintentional.
To YOU, mmorpgs are about the journey. You have set in your mind what they should be about, and want everyone else to just accept it and fall in to line.
That's because "Most people" just want the journey. No wait, "most people" don't want the journey. Wait... "most people" are who? My point exactly.
One individual opinion = most people = should be forced on everyone, because that's what "most people" want = should be forced on everyone, because that's what the individual wants.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
In my personal opinion..MMOs are a little too top heavy at the moment. I wish there was more character advancement during leveling instead of cramming it all into the end game. Just my opinion though because I find questing more fun than end game raiding. I can't be the only person who wishes they were on an alt during raids :P
100% agree.
IMO, the bottom 20-40 and mid 40-80 as well as 80-99 should be just as important as the end game (100).
Instead, it seems the majority of content is geared toward the end game 100, while the 1-99 get the shaft, even though that's a lot of numbers before the single number of max level.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
First of all: As a old pen and paper player is it my opinion that the powergap in all MMOs between new chracaters and old characters are way too large. Of course the character should get better when you play but going from clumsy farmer to demigod is just too much.
But it is my feeling that character advancement really shouldn't stop ever, just getting really slow. Today have all this been moved to gear but I prefer if the player once in a while gets a new skill, improve an old or raise an attribute.
I also feel that maybe we should rethink a little what you get experience for. Killing trashmobs really wont make anyone better. I think the best might be mixing experience points with achivement instead of giving loads of xp for doing the same thing. It would allow good players with less time to advance as fast as bad players who have a lot of time on their hands . . .
As for levels, skill based games where you raise the skills you use or skill/attribute based systems where you get points and place them out yourself, all 3 works fine for me. They are all just simple mechanics to simulate experience, what really matters is how much you can improve your toon.
Well thought out, and I totally agree.
XP and levels are artifacts of the old pen-and-paper systems, and in my opinion they have not translated well into the new electronic format. The most serious problem is that, prior to "end-game", they spread players out too much, often resulting in friends not being able to play together until they all hit endgame. But also, many other issues as highlighted above.
I strongly favor open skill advancement and open content. EVE is definitely a big step in the right direction (although I favor more active advancement of skills rather than background learning as used in EVE).
As the OP pointed out, leveling up skills and leveling up for levels are very similar systems. In UO you had 8 (was it 8? )
skills which you can choose and then you started the leveling. So instead of getting from level 1 to level 50 you got from1 to 100 points in every skill.
The two systems are a bit different and each has its weaknesses and strengths but in the end it's all the same stuff. You end up leveling and leveling and leveling.
EVE also has leveling in it. Essentialy you are increasing your skills from 1 to 5 and it's real time based. However, EVE gives you a ridiculous number of skills. Which gives you a lot of progression paths and progression might be considerate infinite because it's all passive. If you could grind for them, I am pretty sure there would be lots of powerlevelers who would've hit the cap
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Like life, mmorpgs are about the journey, not the destination.
So, just to be clear ... you are arguing that you can't have a journey without levels? Or that levels/advancement are a distraction from what MMORPGs should be in your eyes?
( I ask because not all early pencil and paper RPGs had level advancement - if you take a game like Traveller for example, all your rank and skill development happened during character creation; Even early online RPGs had a whole subgenre, MUSHes, which were focused on storytelling and status rather than levelling; on the other hand, there is a sort of ideal of the ever-deeper dungeon, ever greater power that runs through a lot of my early memories of CRPGs ... you played until the dungeon ran out of levels and there's still an echo of that in today's MMOs, even ones with an endgame other than more levels )
edit: looking back at my original post, I'm wondering if my comment questioning if developers are too focused "the hero's journey" might have raise alarm bells for you? I mean that term as as a story archetype ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey ) where you start as a peon and end as an epic hero. Leveling systems tend to push games towards telling this same story over and over (although I would agree it is a very good story to tell)
Actually no I am not assuming that you "have" to have levels. The only game that I recall table top wise that didn't have levels/advancement was the diceless table top rpg Amber. Even Traveller and yeah I played it back in the late 1970s and into the 80's when it morphed into Mega Traveller had 'skill advancement". Though the pre-game character generation was quite interesting since you did do all that developement.
I am just stating that this genre has pretty clear standards as to what makes it what it is and what I've seen in recent years is a push to make it into more like an FPS. I enjoyed playing Mechwarrior on GEnie in the early 1990s to mid 1990s but it wasn't truly an mmorpg because it lacked alot of various mechanics that Kelton Flynn/Kesmai didn't impliment. That lack of depth on what you could do is what led many of us to go from playing that or Never Winter Nights on AOL to focusing on spending most of our gaming hobby time in a game like Gemstone III or Dragonrealms.
I have nothing against FPS, but I dont want "this" genre to become a FPS.
Personally I am tired/weary of gamers of other genres trying to make mmorpgs into those other genres. Getting developers to dumb down the concept of risk/reward, removing "most" of the journey that is supposed to be a part of the fun of playing a mmorpg. Players who play first person shooters don't want character developement, role-play, they want to get to one thing, player vs player competition. nothing wrong with that, but they shouldn't keep trying to make mmorpgs into a variation of a FPS.
Like life, mmorpgs are about the journey, not the destination. Experiencing, exploring, interacting, strife, achieving, things of this nature that take time and investment in order to achieve. When you have to put time and effort into something, the achievements, goals or rewards mean alot more. These things have all become very diminished in recent years due to how game designers design games to fit what players of other genres who know play mmorpgs want.
You actually illustrate the problem, however untintentional.
To YOU, mmorpgs are about the journey. You have set in your mind what they should be about, and want everyone else to just accept it and fall in to line.
Yeah well that might have something to do with the fact that my gaming experiences go back to 1977 for table top rpgs, table top tactical and strategy games and back to 1992 for online rpg, tactical and strategy games. I am not saying that rpgs can't evolve and improve, they should.
What I am saying is that by removing the meat from the genre you make it into something else. rpgs are meant to be more involved, more indepth, require more effort. They aren't meant to sit down' figure out what the half a dozens do (ok this one makes me jump up and down, this button uses my main weapon, this one picks up items) and off you go to rack up a score.
There is a genre of game out there for everyone already, why make mmorpgs into something that already exists? Why remove or change all the challenges/risk/rewards? When I want to just dive right into something for instant action I would just log into X Box live with one of my sons and play some Halo or Black Ops, nothing wrong with. That said I don't feel like I have an investment into those games like I do with a presistant fantasy/science fiction game world. Where I develop a character, advancement, work for achievements, improve his skills, be a part of battles and conflict and even dare I say..role-play.
This just shows how MMO's have lost the RPG aspect. It feels like we are missing out on the leveling experience. The focus now tends to be advancement and accomplishment. Is this avoidable?
In my personal opinion..MMOs are a little too top heavy at the moment. I wish there was more character advancement during leveling instead of cramming it all into the end game. Just my opinion though because I find questing more fun than end game raiding. I can't be the only person who wishes they were on an alt during raids :P
Totally agreed, lets take WoW for example. Blizzard for years have been repeatly shorting exp needed to level, offering exp boosting etc. Removing the challenge/difficulty from various quests(Changing mobs from elite to normal, making less mobs etc). They then spent a decent amount of effort to revamp the two main land masses and yet who really gets to see/experience those areas? You gain exp so fast that you really can't adventure through them.
Hell, one of the worst thing they did I thought was put exp into the bgs, you now have players who simply just level to cap in the battlegrounds and never do anything game content wise until they hit the cap.
Honestly why didn't they just design a game where you did a mini adventure that took you through some quests(solo) so you could learn about your race/class and then when you finished you were cap and unleashed on the end content? Sort of something like Age of Conan's Tortage area as an example.( the night time part)
Actually no I am not assuming that you "have" to have levels.
(snip)
I am just stating that this genre has pretty clear standards as to what makes it what it is and what I've seen in recent years is a push to make it into more like an FPS.
I want to focus on these two sentences for a moment, because I still don't feel I understand your point. What exactly have I said that has triggered your "I don't like where this is going" reflex? What standard of the genre am I violating?
This just shows how MMO's have lost the RPG aspect. It feels like we are missing out on the leveling experience. The focus now tends to be advancement and accomplishment. Is this avoidable?
I've given up the debate totally on the rpg aspect of mmorpgs. No game company really enforces the polices like they used to do back in the 1990s. ie: that out of genre names were not allowed that ooc talk was limited to private rooms or whispers and that you kept all public or channel talk to in genre conversation.
Even if you weren't a big role-player in the 1990s you at least tried to avoid the social blunder of talking about real world crap in public. And the gaming companies tried to enforce such polices the only one that attempts it in todays market is Turbine for Lord of the Rings Online and even they really are rather hit and miss.
I remember a few years ago I was playing WoW and this player was on the trade channel recruiting for his guild. One of the things he listed was that his guild had "sheduled role-play nights/events". I thought as I read it.."Wow, really? You gotta shedule it? Shouldn't you be trying to always maintain a certain level of ingenre activity? At least so you aren't blowing the immersion for everyone around you? It was when I read that that I realized that role-play as I'd known it was basically dead, even on a WoW rp or pvp/rp server no one role-plays as the norm. And those that do attempt to do so I've noted are treated badly and verbally abused. Which makes me ponder why those pinheads are even on a rp server if they dont want to at least stay ingenre.
Basically role-play is the on facet on what was a very multi-faceted gem that has been buffed/sanded off. Btw I love how players come along to play this genre and state crap like "dont tell me how to play!" Hmm ok, but if you go to play football there are rules you agree to play football. Or golf, or monoply or billards, the same holds true for mmorpgs. You all come on down the pike and now tell us "how we are supposed to play". Oh what a twisted and confusing storyline mmorpgs have become.
Actually no I am not assuming that you "have" to have levels.
(snip)
I am just stating that this genre has pretty clear standards as to what makes it what it is and what I've seen in recent years is a push to make it into more like an FPS.
I want to focus on these two sentences for a moment, because still don't feel I understand your point. What exactly have I said that has triggered your "I don't like where this is going" reflex? What standard of the genre am I violating?
I am going to assume that you aren't reading my posts because I am fairly sure by reading them that my point of view is quite clear, or that you just want to debate for debates sake. I don't care to debate for debates sake btw. I posted because I felt that I had opinion based what I had experienced over the decades and what "I" thought "I" recognized as what this genre was and what it wasn't and what other genres were.
Btw I also was a big fan of Runequest which didn't have levels but you did improve your skills also GURPS as well was a big favorite of mine for game mechanics.
I am going to assume that you aren't reading my posts because I am fairly sure by reading them that my point of view is quite clear, or that you just want to debate for debates sake.
My apologies if I come off sounding adversarial. I am genuinely trying to understand you and I genuinely don't. Some people gave a hearty "agreed" to your initial post so it bothers me that I just don't get it. I can see you talking about risk-reward, the journey, role-playing ... and although each post helps me a little to build a model of what you're thinking and what you like/dislike, I still don't feel I understand what exactly you were responding to in this thread.
hey maple interesting read. from some one that has played alot of themepark mmo's by the sounds of it.
i understand your pain. ive played wow ,lotro, guild wars, rift, reqieum , runescape, ddo,swg,and many many many many other games that look and feel just like wow with the same dull boring end game content that leaves you feeling lost and as if you have just wasted time with something you didnt realise was going to waste your time. oh yea i also played sto too. bad bad game and exactly your description.
but if you think about a game that has only achievement in titles and under a short cut key how will every one else know that you have achieved these things. bragging in an mmo just travels round on the wind. it goes on death ears and no one really cares about how many orcs you may have been able to kill.
in an mmo you need personal acheivement and visable noticable gain. i can only think of 1 game tat actually illustrates this kind of advancements and actually allows for advancement to be shown through personal illustratied visual noticable gain.
it has a system with no level grind no geer grind and end game can be taken part in at the start if you are the epic hero type in heart and soul as a player not as a charecter with the level 100 above his head. then yes you can indeed go head to head with the 3 year old players. not syaing you stand much chance but hey the option is there and you can play a significant role with the correct team leader who understands how to use your new charecter to the best possible advantage of the team. this game doesnt boast single player epic pvp battles where its about how fantastic you are on your own, but it allows for groups to become noticeable guilds to gain names for them selves. a kind of unregistered renown and server rateting without actually haveing the mechanic to place to list your score. the game allows for your guild to be noticed thorugh word of mouth and visual recognition through simply doing things concidered to be of epic proportion. for example a specialised team of 10 players taking on a much larger force and winning utterly. not because they have more level and more dps and more defence but because they have skill tactics and unity as a team, they know each other and how they all work, they have cohesion and structure, and they have exeperience. all these things stand out to other players on the field of battle. not like wow where its about best epic geer and best internet connectivity, or the one uber dps class that also has fairly decent defencive capabailities too. no this is about individuals training them selves useing personal dicepline to become a unfied tactical team that prevails against overwhelming odds. only one game ive found so far!!!
the game allows the individual to proove their metal through personal skill and prowess in game as well as useing their mental aptitude and cunningness, tactics and planning become essential to success. research of ideas and preplanning enable ideas to go without glitch sometimes.
ther game shows and demonstrates power visually by means of the items/content that you can learn to use. also the power can be visually demonstrated by your own personal player skill and playing experience within the game. and lastly, if your the leader type who commands other players and demands respect through leadership qaulities and success in all areas other than pvp, your guild can attain content that can be seen and used in game, this stuff is like putting a ferrari on your drive, or say building a concervatory on yuor house or even an extension or even building your own house maybe even buying and owning your own street, maybe you can be so successful in game that you can own entire regions of the game and be concidered the provincial mayor of that s called player run state. this is all very very possible and ive already achieved this once myself in this one pareticular game.
and finally power can be represented on the players behalf by the creation of successfull and stand out noticeable mighty empires/guilds that actually have meaning purpose and use of requirement in the games mechanics and fantasy enviroment.. not like these standard guild systems we see in every single other game where its just about filling the roster with players for raid groups.
no!
im talking about a guild system where every member has the chance to shine and show their steel bearing a guild name of relevance created by an individual player within the game. im talking about the chance for players to become well known important and respected names throughout the games community. all based of their efforts within player organisations and guilds, i keep calling it a guild which is the wrong terminology for this game, but im trying to write this so other players can relate to what im trying to say in re gaurds to your pains!
this game if i think about it really really hard has no end game, there is no max level there is no way for a single player to achieve awesome ness through grinding monsters or killing bad guys. their are no titles or achievements systems for the player to go out and grind to spam in local chat about how many wolves he's killed or which elite master boss he can solo.
this empowers the individual and the individuels friends and teams.
i am ofcourse talking about eve-online. more games should be looking to eve for inspiration for charecter progression and customisation.
having played EVE with 2 accounts for 5 years, I've come away believing the opposite, that while learning over time with just money grind was a good idea for that type of game, I don't really think it's okay that it takes a year+ to be a competent pilot in any aspect. Guns skills to V is not an option, neither is using tech 2 ships at this point.
character advancement should continue growing as developers add more content in game..... its annoying to have like 3 expansions and ur character is stuck with the same power you had in the original game (pre-xpax)
Comments
In my opinion forever. Character's advancement is the a-z to an rpg and mmorpg.
So how u do it?
1.Gear : wow's way.every once ina whiule tehy throw a patch or expansion raising item lvl's drops so your actual lvl is raised
2.Infinite lvl up: I said it in an old post and i ll keep saying it. Its the only way to keep your intrest on your character with having to re-roll to alts. How u do it? Easy... Zounds of xp needed for lvling up from example 85 lvl to 86 ..even more zounds xp needed to go to 87 ...etcetc so ppl will just do what they are doing dungeons pvp tournaments adventuring ,forgetting simply to farm xp simply cause its so hard to raise lvls after a certain point. But no exclude it completely.. That also means that someone that played his character in thsi game over 2 years will maybe be 2-3 lvls higher than someone that plays the game for 3-4 months.And that way u wont have to be gear dependent that much.
I think 2 is the only way to go. Gear is gear, it is NOT character advancement.
In my personal opinion..MMOs are a little too top heavy at the moment. I wish there was more character advancement during leveling instead of cramming it all into the end game. Just my opinion though because I find questing more fun than end game raiding. I can't be the only person who wishes they were on an alt during raids :P
I'm of the opinion that character advancement should last as long as you want players to keep playing the game. There are many ways to advance other than just level/skills/gear/etc.
For me, advancing my character in some way, shape, form, or manner is what keeps me playing when my friends aren't online. Friends/Community are the only other reason I play online games.
As long as it's fun.
I find this particular sentence fascinating.
Character advancement should be an option even past level cap, and not just gearing up.
EQ had AA points
FFXI had merits
I wish there was more games that had more AA-esque character advancement systems.
I enjoyed the OP's writeup. I haven't gotten a chance to read all the posts in this thread yet, but I intend to, and I'll add more relevant replies accordingly. For now I just wish to add one sociological tidbit:
Viewing MMOs as escapist entertainment, character progression is the driving addictive force behind them. In a raging capitalistic society where the common person may feel rather helpless and generally unproductive, escaping into a world where you advance at a noticable rate, where your character grows, improvies and becomes stronger relative to the rest of the world, where your increase in power is virtually tangible, can be quite a powerful experience. I'm certainly not saying that everyone fits this model, but I believe many do. I know I came to these conclusions first by objectively analyzing my own sense of achievement that I've experienced in MMOs. In a good MMO, I feel like I am constantly accomplishing small goals...and it feels rewarding. This exists in offline RPGs as well, but not nearly to the same extent. Accomplishing these goals in a persistent world where other players can witness them makes all the difference.
If you diminish this strongly addictive element of progression, if you questing through a zone JUST about experiencing the story elements of the quests, I think a great many players will simply not quest through that zone.
I never told anyone how to enjoy a game and how to play it. Only stating that it is annoying to hear people complain about 'lack of content' when they zipped through in only a matter of weeks. MMO companies don't have billions and cannot roll out content as players want them too. If a person is going to zip through a game and then complain about how there is no content then they are, kinda, an idiot.
I don't agree. The +1 STR is on my char regardless of 'where' it is.
Old school D&D had a similar mechanic if your char didn't get up to the 'epic' level (or your DM didn't do epic levels) in that you advanced through gear.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
That's because "Most people" just want the journey. No wait, "most people" don't want the journey. Wait... "most people" are who? My point exactly.
One individual opinion = most people = should be forced on everyone, because that's what "most people" want = should be forced on everyone, because that's what the individual wants.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
100% agree.
IMO, the bottom 20-40 and mid 40-80 as well as 80-99 should be just as important as the end game (100).
Instead, it seems the majority of content is geared toward the end game 100, while the 1-99 get the shaft, even though that's a lot of numbers before the single number of max level.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
As the OP pointed out, leveling up skills and leveling up for levels are very similar systems. In UO you had 8 (was it 8?
)
skills which you can choose and then you started the leveling. So instead of getting from level 1 to level 50 you got from1 to 100 points in every skill.
The two systems are a bit different and each has its weaknesses and strengths but in the end it's all the same stuff. You end up leveling and leveling and leveling.
EVE also has leveling in it. Essentialy you are increasing your skills from 1 to 5 and it's real time based. However, EVE gives you a ridiculous number of skills. Which gives you a lot of progression paths and progression might be considerate infinite because it's all passive. If you could grind for them, I am pretty sure there would be lots of powerlevelers who would've hit the cap
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Years.
It should get slower and slower, and less and less relevant, but you should still keep progressing.
So if you play the game for years, your level 90 (after one year) will be level 96, but a level 90 might still kick your butt in 1 vs 1 PvP.
Actually no I am not assuming that you "have" to have levels. The only game that I recall table top wise that didn't have levels/advancement was the diceless table top rpg Amber. Even Traveller and yeah I played it back in the late 1970s and into the 80's when it morphed into Mega Traveller had 'skill advancement". Though the pre-game character generation was quite interesting since you did do all that developement.
I am just stating that this genre has pretty clear standards as to what makes it what it is and what I've seen in recent years is a push to make it into more like an FPS. I enjoyed playing Mechwarrior on GEnie in the early 1990s to mid 1990s but it wasn't truly an mmorpg because it lacked alot of various mechanics that Kelton Flynn/Kesmai didn't impliment. That lack of depth on what you could do is what led many of us to go from playing that or Never Winter Nights on AOL to focusing on spending most of our gaming hobby time in a game like Gemstone III or Dragonrealms.
I have nothing against FPS, but I dont want "this" genre to become a FPS.
Yeah well that might have something to do with the fact that my gaming experiences go back to 1977 for table top rpgs, table top tactical and strategy games and back to 1992 for online rpg, tactical and strategy games. I am not saying that rpgs can't evolve and improve, they should.
What I am saying is that by removing the meat from the genre you make it into something else. rpgs are meant to be more involved, more indepth, require more effort. They aren't meant to sit down' figure out what the half a dozens do (ok this one makes me jump up and down, this button uses my main weapon, this one picks up items) and off you go to rack up a score.
There is a genre of game out there for everyone already, why make mmorpgs into something that already exists? Why remove or change all the challenges/risk/rewards? When I want to just dive right into something for instant action I would just log into X Box live with one of my sons and play some Halo or Black Ops, nothing wrong with. That said I don't feel like I have an investment into those games like I do with a presistant fantasy/science fiction game world. Where I develop a character, advancement, work for achievements, improve his skills, be a part of battles and conflict and even dare I say..role-play.
This just shows how MMO's have lost the RPG aspect. It feels like we are missing out on the leveling experience. The focus now tends to be advancement and accomplishment. Is this avoidable?
Totally agreed, lets take WoW for example. Blizzard for years have been repeatly shorting exp needed to level, offering exp boosting etc. Removing the challenge/difficulty from various quests(Changing mobs from elite to normal, making less mobs etc). They then spent a decent amount of effort to revamp the two main land masses and yet who really gets to see/experience those areas? You gain exp so fast that you really can't adventure through them.
Hell, one of the worst thing they did I thought was put exp into the bgs, you now have players who simply just level to cap in the battlegrounds and never do anything game content wise until they hit the cap.
Honestly why didn't they just design a game where you did a mini adventure that took you through some quests(solo) so you could learn about your race/class and then when you finished you were cap and unleashed on the end content? Sort of something like Age of Conan's Tortage area as an example.( the night time part)
I want to focus on these two sentences for a moment, because I still don't feel I understand your point. What exactly have I said that has triggered your "I don't like where this is going" reflex? What standard of the genre am I violating?
I've given up the debate totally on the rpg aspect of mmorpgs. No game company really enforces the polices like they used to do back in the 1990s. ie: that out of genre names were not allowed that ooc talk was limited to private rooms or whispers and that you kept all public or channel talk to in genre conversation.
Even if you weren't a big role-player in the 1990s you at least tried to avoid the social blunder of talking about real world crap in public. And the gaming companies tried to enforce such polices the only one that attempts it in todays market is Turbine for Lord of the Rings Online and even they really are rather hit and miss.
I remember a few years ago I was playing WoW and this player was on the trade channel recruiting for his guild. One of the things he listed was that his guild had "sheduled role-play nights/events". I thought as I read it.."Wow, really? You gotta shedule it? Shouldn't you be trying to always maintain a certain level of ingenre activity? At least so you aren't blowing the immersion for everyone around you? It was when I read that that I realized that role-play as I'd known it was basically dead, even on a WoW rp or pvp/rp server no one role-plays as the norm. And those that do attempt to do so I've noted are treated badly and verbally abused. Which makes me ponder why those pinheads are even on a rp server if they dont want to at least stay ingenre.
Basically role-play is the on facet on what was a very multi-faceted gem that has been buffed/sanded off. Btw I love how players come along to play this genre and state crap like "dont tell me how to play!" Hmm ok, but if you go to play football there are rules you agree to play football. Or golf, or monoply or billards, the same holds true for mmorpgs. You all come on down the pike and now tell us "how we are supposed to play". Oh what a twisted and confusing storyline mmorpgs have become.
I am going to assume that you aren't reading my posts because I am fairly sure by reading them that my point of view is quite clear, or that you just want to debate for debates sake. I don't care to debate for debates sake btw. I posted because I felt that I had opinion based what I had experienced over the decades and what "I" thought "I" recognized as what this genre was and what it wasn't and what other genres were.
Btw I also was a big fan of Runequest which didn't have levels but you did improve your skills also GURPS as well was a big favorite of mine for game mechanics.
My apologies if I come off sounding adversarial. I am genuinely trying to understand you and I genuinely don't. Some people gave a hearty "agreed" to your initial post so it bothers me that I just don't get it. I can see you talking about risk-reward, the journey, role-playing ... and although each post helps me a little to build a model of what you're thinking and what you like/dislike, I still don't feel I understand what exactly you were responding to in this thread.
hey maple
interesting read. from some one that has played alot of themepark mmo's by the sounds of it.
i understand your pain. ive played wow ,lotro, guild wars, rift, reqieum , runescape, ddo,swg,and many many many many other games that look and feel just like wow with the same dull boring end game content that leaves you feeling lost and as if you have just wasted time with something you didnt realise was going to waste your time. oh yea i also played sto too. bad bad game and exactly your description.
but if you think about a game that has only achievement in titles and under a short cut key how will every one else know that you have achieved these things. bragging in an mmo just travels round on the wind. it goes on death ears and no one really cares about how many orcs you may have been able to kill.
in an mmo you need personal acheivement and visable noticable gain. i can only think of 1 game tat actually illustrates this kind of advancements and actually allows for advancement to be shown through personal illustratied visual noticable gain.
it has a system with no level grind no geer grind and end game can be taken part in at the start if you are the epic hero type in heart and soul as a player not as a charecter with the level 100 above his head. then yes you can indeed go head to head with the 3 year old players. not syaing you stand much chance but hey the option is there and you can play a significant role with the correct team leader who understands how to use your new charecter to the best possible advantage of the team. this game doesnt boast single player epic pvp battles where its about how fantastic you are on your own, but it allows for groups to become noticeable guilds to gain names for them selves. a kind of unregistered renown and server rateting without actually haveing the mechanic to place to list your score. the game allows for your guild to be noticed thorugh word of mouth and visual recognition through simply doing things concidered to be of epic proportion. for example a specialised team of 10 players taking on a much larger force and winning utterly. not because they have more level and more dps and more defence but because they have skill tactics and unity as a team, they know each other and how they all work, they have cohesion and structure, and they have exeperience. all these things stand out to other players on the field of battle. not like wow where its about best epic geer and best internet connectivity, or the one uber dps class that also has fairly decent defencive capabailities too. no this is about individuals training them selves useing personal dicepline to become a unfied tactical team that prevails against overwhelming odds. only one game ive found so far!!!
the game allows the individual to proove their metal through personal skill and prowess in game as well as useing their mental aptitude and cunningness, tactics and planning become essential to success. research of ideas and preplanning enable ideas to go without glitch sometimes.
ther game shows and demonstrates power visually by means of the items/content that you can learn to use. also the power can be visually demonstrated by your own personal player skill and playing experience within the game. and lastly, if your the leader type who commands other players and demands respect through leadership qaulities and success in all areas other than pvp, your guild can attain content that can be seen and used in game, this stuff is like putting a ferrari on your drive, or say building a concervatory on yuor house or even an extension or even building your own house maybe even buying and owning your own street, maybe you can be so successful in game that you can own entire regions of the game and be concidered the provincial mayor of that s called player run state. this is all very very possible and ive already achieved this once myself in this one pareticular game.
and finally power can be represented on the players behalf by the creation of successfull and stand out noticeable mighty empires/guilds that actually have meaning purpose and use of requirement in the games mechanics and fantasy enviroment.. not like these standard guild systems we see in every single other game where its just about filling the roster with players for raid groups.
no!
im talking about a guild system where every member has the chance to shine and show their steel bearing a guild name of relevance created by an individual player within the game. im talking about the chance for players to become well known important and respected names throughout the games community. all based of their efforts within player organisations and guilds, i keep calling it a guild which is the wrong terminology for this game, but im trying to write this so other players can relate to what im trying to say in re gaurds to your pains!
this game if i think about it really really hard has no end game, there is no max level there is no way for a single player to achieve awesome ness through grinding monsters or killing bad guys. their are no titles or achievements systems for the player to go out and grind to spam in local chat about how many wolves he's killed or which elite master boss he can solo.
this empowers the individual and the individuels friends and teams.
i am ofcourse talking about eve-online. more games should be looking to eve for inspiration for charecter progression and customisation.
i personally hate the level grind!!
having played EVE with 2 accounts for 5 years, I've come away believing the opposite, that while learning over time with just money grind was a good idea for that type of game, I don't really think it's okay that it takes a year+ to be a competent pilot in any aspect. Guns skills to V is not an option, neither is using tech 2 ships at this point.
character advancement should continue growing as developers add more content in game..... its annoying to have like 3 expansions and ur character is stuck with the same power you had in the original game (pre-xpax)