first big let down so far , kinda lame was hoping for somthing a little better and more interactive. somthing closer to a Vanguard , swg, xyson.
also this part sounded pretty dumb
"In addition, most crafters can create upgrades for their gear. For instance, a weaponsmith can craft a handle which can be attached to melee weapons to give them a chance to poison enemies."
cool i like the upgrading part , but a handle that some how adds poison seems dumb. guess im just nit picking that last point meh just me though.
Hm, ok. From what I read it seems like you put different ingredients in varying orders to yield different items. That is how you discover recipes. So im not sure how you came up with having a recipe first and getting it right. Not even sure what you mean by that actually, heh.
The point isnt to grind out every profession nor is it to eliminate grinding out every profession. The actual point is that in a balanced crafting system/economy you dont have the option to be 100% self sufficient. You may have to *gasp* trade and work with others just like all the other pve content.
I don't think you either 1. Understand what RNG means, or 2. Understand how the combining ingredients works.
I'm not sure which of those two it is, but you're severely off base with one of those. Care to explain a little further why you think it's RNG, so I can gently correct you?
Also, if you think just a little further, you'll realize the ability to swap professions isn't going to be the main thing that affects whether or not you need to trade with others.
If people can level these crafting jobs up fairly easily (400 max skill points, with multiple skill points per some items, and the ability to max out your crafting skill WITHOUT crafting anything above and beyond the items you'll be using yourself means a pretty easy leveling, if you ask me), people can level up without any profession (class) level restriction (So you can be a maxed out weaponsmith while being a level 1 warrior, for example), and everybody can gather every single resource (There is no sort of gathering type jobs, only crafting), then it would be just as easy (... and actually cheaper) to create a bunch of alts and slap the alternate crafting jobs on them.
There's only 8 jobs, so it takes 1 main character and 3 alts. That's hardly onerous on the player, and at worst requires a little bit of inventory juggling.
We don't KNOW how the economy balances out, because nobody is playing the game yet. The question becomes, what is done with all those resources that every single player in the game (Whether they're crafting or not) are going to be gathering? Will resources become as valuable as dirt?
There were some pretty expensive rare resources in GW1 that suggest that the economy could be built around EXTREMELY hard to collect resources, that you need a lot of to craft high level recipes. So it's quite possible that the biggest blockade both to maxing out professions and to having multiple high level ones, is lack of resources.
A lot of trade may revolve around the high end, rare resources, and the rare items that the highest level crafters make that go through the bother of getting the rarest recipes (The ones that are monster drops). They'll be shelling out a lot of money to corner the market on certain rare resources to build their items, and other people will be shelling out even more money to get those rare weapons/armors or whatever.
Since we know pretty much nothing about the rarity of dropped recipes, just how well they're going to hide recipes using the rarest of materials, or just how rare those rarest materials are, you really can't speak of how the economy is going to work, and how reliant we'll be on other players.
It's a very high possibility that gathering for the highest end items will be a communal effort though, with the input of several high level players needed just to bang out a single set of super-rare-leet-uber armor.
Since neither of us know most of the pertinent facts, and all I'm going on is how GW1 crafting worked, neither of us can answer the question of just how robust and vivid the economy will work once it's really going.
All we CAN answer, is that your problem with people being able to switch crafting jobs with a fee is not where the possible problems with the economy are going to crop up. You're worrying about something as if this were a different game than it actually is.
Originally posted by william4
"In addition, most crafters can create upgrades for their gear. For instance, a weaponsmith can craft a handle which can be attached to melee weapons to give them a chance to poison enemies."
cool i like the upgrading part , but a handle that some how adds poison seems dumb. guess im just nit picking that last point meh just me though.
Have you ever noticed that lots of weapons in games have effects like lightning, poison, fire or whatever?
GW1 just has magical hilts that give effects like that. It helps if you imagine them imbued with mystical powers and that they have lots of fancy runes drawn on them under the wrappings.
GW1 was always like that... different parts of a weapon had different types of enchantments you could have. Apparently in the GW universe, their crafters put magic onto certain parts of the weapon. I'm not really sure how this is any more or less unbelievable than any OTHER method of making magic weapons.
"In addition, most crafters can create upgrades for their gear. For instance, a weaponsmith can craft a handle which can be attached to melee weapons to give them a chance to poison enemies."
cool i like the upgrading part , but a handle that some how adds poison seems dumb. guess im just nit picking that last point meh just me though.
It is very similar to Guild Wars if you have played it.
Originally posted by Meowhead Okay, let's talk about the most important part. That charr loom is AMAZING. You seriously look like you could weave the hell out of things. I've never heard 'badass' and 'textile' used in the same sentence before, but that is probably the most awesome Loom I've seen since Lucasarts...
This is very probably the best comment I have seen in a forum for years.
It really is a badass loom. The art design never stops impressing me. I am surprised there is not more innovation in the crafting department, but it seems like a solid system.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Love it, they give you experimentation in crafting and the ability to create items without knowing a recipe and all people can say is "Meh".
We trully are living in the generation of the jaded.
This discovery system reminds me of EQ1's crafting system. You put your arrow shafts, bone tips, and feathers in the box and see what comes out. I enjoyed that - but I understand there are lots of folks who won't. The key thing is that people have to feel they are unique - in other words, some recipes should be rare - and I DO NOT mean high-level only, but just rare... so that if I have it I become sought after for my arrows/bullets, bows, whatever.
The idea that nodes are available for all is okay, too, although it will probably mean there won't be much of an economy around crafting mats. That is ok too, just different. And I'm sure the economy will exist - some people don't want to harvest. Some crafters will need mats they can't get yet because they are in higher level zones.
Compared to GW1 this is robust. Compared to WOW, LOTRO, and EQ1, I'd say it is perhaps on par. That is ok with me, but i'm anxious to hear reports from PAX East about how players like it.
You really don't get it do you. Why would'nt we think they would innovate the crafting system when they did with EVERYTHING else. Since there has really only been ONLY ONE game in the series its hard to say that A) Its a series and What the series has been about. I think you are confuseing the gear based grind of wow with the guild wars idea of you can have lots of different LOOKING gear but the stats don't change. Some of it is harder to get then others but geting does NOT give you an advantage unlike in wow where the harder to get stuff DOES. You would be supprised how MUCH people like and enjoy a GOOD crafting and that its A LOT more then just a side thing to do. pvp for me is VERY unimportant and I would'nt care if they left it out of the game. BUT I can understand that SOME people like and enjoy it a lot so I could understand if the pvp system badly done people will complain. SO why is it so hard for YOU to understand that crafting is important to other people even if its not for YOU.
One game in the series? Are you stupid? There's 3 plus an expansion pack.
No I would NOT be surprised by how many people that like crafting systems. I like to craft in MMOs, I never said otherwise you complete idiot. You think I don't care about the crafting in this game? I do. I'm discussing it right now. So obviously I do. But I will not fool myself into thinking that they were going innovate the crafting system. ESPECIALLY when the original series didn't have a robust crafting system at all. Just because they're "innovating" the other systems does not give anyone the right to believe they're going to innovate a part of the game that is not as important.
And to anyone who thinks this is going to be a gear/equipment driven game, you must be crazy. Yes, they're putting a little bit more focus on equipment, but it still doesn't matter as much as personal skill itself. That's what Guild Wars has ALWAYS been about.
If I have a copy of factions and you have nightfall do we log into DIFFERENT games. NO we login to the SAME ONE. So like I said its really only ONE game. Nows whos the stupid idiot. Clearly YOU.
Just because you posting in topic does'nt mean you care about the subject. As anyone can see form your posts. Thats twice you called the crafting system unimportant. No one who claims to care about crafting or likes to do it would say that unless thier a total idiot like you that is. And like I said before crafting is MORE important than pvp to a LOT of people. Probley more people than like to pvp actually.
If they're "innovating" the other systems AND the old system was not good Thats precisely WHY we have the right to expect them to do something with the crafting system. Also becasue they said they where @ gamescom 2010 . I don't remember the excat quote but they said something like they where excited and could'nt wait to show us the new crafting system. Why on earth would they think we would be excited about this crappy wow crafting system that has MORE grinding that anything that Anet has ever done before ? I have no idea.
You really should pay more attnetion to what Anet have been saying about GW2 as there is a LOT more focus on gear/armour than there was in GW1.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
You really don't get it do you. Why would'nt we think they would innovate the crafting system when they did with EVERYTHING else. Since there has really only been ONLY ONE game in the series its hard to say that A) Its a series and What the series has been about. I think you are confuseing the gear based grind of wow with the guild wars idea of you can have lots of different LOOKING gear but the stats don't change. Some of it is harder to get then others but geting does NOT give you an advantage unlike in wow where the harder to get stuff DOES.
You would be supprised how MUCH people like and enjoy a GOOD crafting and that its A LOT more then just a side thing to do. pvp for me is VERY unimportant and I would'nt care if they left it out of the game. BUT I can understand that SOME people like and enjoy it a lot so I could understand if the pvp system badly done people will complain. SO why is it so hard for YOU to understand that crafting is important to other people even if its not for YOU.
If you were expecting the best crafting system ever then you were setting yourself up for disappointment. Nobody at Anet ever said the crafting system would be "innovative" or "revolutionary". They said the system was going to be ROBUST. They gave no indications what-so-ever that they would be showing off a crafting system that nobody has ever seen before.
People have to learn that sometimes you have to take a developers words at face value. They never hinted at some ground-breaking, revolutionary system. Anet's philosophy isn't to take every little system and give it a complete overhaul. What they do is look at the flaws most other games leave in their features and try their best to make theirs work as well as they can make it.
-snipped-
They have taken the grind out of one side and put it on the other. Instead of EG makeing 100 "useless" swords you lvl you now have to try 100 of "useless" combos of mats. Just to make ONE item. Thanks but no thanks at least the other way I KNEW what I had to get and do to lvl.
So the idea of asking someone or taking part in the community to learn something in an MMO (MMO's by the way are different from normal games primarily in the social and community aspects) is too much bother?
I know MMO's are different from normal games I've been playing MMO's for 10 years and normal ones for a LOT longer . Its not haveing to ask someone or looking it up on a wiki thats the problem. Its that I have NO idea what mats I supposed to get to progress my crafting. EG in Lotro I knew if I got x copper and y tin I would be able to make z swords and progess would be made. But in GW2 I don't know mats to get so I could spend hours geting a loads of mats but not be able to make anything as I don't have the right mats. THATS the problem.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
I know MMO's are different from normal games I've been playing MMO's for 10 years and normal ones for a LOT longer . Its not haveing to ask someone or looking it up on a wiki thats the problem. Its that I have NO idea what mats I supposed to get to progress my crafting. EG in Lotro I knew if I got x copper and y tin I would be able to make z swords and progess would be made. But in GW2 I don't know mats to get so I could spend hours geting a loads of mats but not be able to make anything as I don't have the right mats. THATS the problem.
Only if you're mildly incompetent.
They already said that you start off knowing basic recipes, and component recipes. So you'll be able to make SOMETHING, at least.
I'm also assuming that basic recipes are going to be fairly easy. You know, like LotRO 'Oh, I can manufacture components like an iron hilt, and two iron blade pieces... if I combine these... oh hey presto, I got myself a sword. :V ' If you think things are going to be so cryptic and obscure (Look at the jeweller things you can make, like hooks, filigree and rings... I can think of a few ways to combine those just offhand) you won't even be able to make basic stuff, then I don't know what to tell you, really.
You couldn't make the MORE complex things in LotRO unless you got the special recipe drops anyway. The higher level/more advanced stuff is always gated away from you in MMOs somehow... in this case, it's experimentation (Or if you're that sort, wikipedia.).
I know MMO's are different from normal games I've been playing MMO's for 10 years and normal ones for a LOT longer . Its not haveing to ask someone or looking it up on a wiki thats the problem. Its that I have NO idea what mats I supposed to get to progress my crafting. EG in Lotro I knew if I got x copper and y tin I would be able to make z swords and progess would be made. But in GW2 I don't know mats to get so I could spend hours geting a loads of mats but not be able to make anything as I don't have the right mats. THATS the problem.
Is there anything that says you couldn't make 50 of the same item to progress if you wanted to?
I also think that if there are enough recipes, then the discovery grind is minimized. Trying 50 different combinations to find one that works would be pretty awful. But being able to take what you have on you when you come back from your day's adventuring and having a good chance that you can make 3-4 items total off of what you happened to have picked up wouldn't be bad.
I don't think their goal in the first place is to have you grind out loads of mats at all, much less having to do it without even being sure you could make anything with them.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
We don't really know how this is going to work in practice yet. Again, I was a fan of discovery in other crafting games. But here is a way I can see it working within GW2's philosophy of rewarding interaction and experimentation without penalizing players:
You approach the badass Charr workbench. There are slots to put mats in. You have basic recipes available in a recipe book of sorts, so you know if you put a stack of these leaves, a stack of this water, and a stack of flasks in the bench and press combine it will create a stack of healing pots. Fine. But there is a "bonus" slot for additives. If you put the aforementioned mats in and throw an eye of crawl [or stack thereof] in the additive slot, and that isn't a valid recipe ... you still get your plain old healing pots. All you've lost is an eye of crawl that you were going to vendor anyway. If you put the head of a 3-eyed grumpus, however, then you get healing pots of greater insight. And since you are the only one foolish enough to put a 3-eyed grumpus head in there, or enough of a hoarder to get stacks of them, you now corner the market on healing pots of insight. And even when the wiki's publish the recipe, you may STILL be able to make cash off it, cos not many people want to farm 3-eyed grumpus. A lot of folks will be happy with the basic, never-fail, recipes. People who are really into crafting minigames will experiment and build a thriving business selling torches of wisdom and boneshaft arrows of evisceration.
A recipe can become viable as part of the econmy and make a player feel unique/special when it is "rare" or, conversely when the mats for it are obscure enough (not necessarily rare) that nobody farms them. I'm thinking of a certain fish that used to make a transmogrification pot in another game. I had the recipe which was a little rare, and then had the patience to fish for stacks of the fish to make it. There were only a couple of us on server doing that, and we sold those pots like mad for awhile.
One downside - virtual hoarders (you know who you are - you have panes and panes full of collector items in GW1 just in case Nick wants them next week) will fill inventory space with "white" items like 3-eyed grumus heads because they "might" become useful in crafting. That just complicates the inventory management mini-game and, frankly, will be good for Anet to sell more storage space to those hoarders. I'm ok with that as long as we get a crafting system that is useful (I HATE making things to sell to vendors - ala LOTRO), contributes to an economy and is fun.
So you found a rare node that everyone has access to and it doesn't disappear? How will it be rare? Okay there is one, but it never goes anywhere.....and you can stand and farm it?
I feel like I missed something :S
"and you can stand and farm it?" That's the misinformation part. The resource does not appear imediately. I can suggest mechanics that I am sure that will maintain rarity that we already know about from GW1.
A) The Seer. An NPC that once you fight your way to his location (not very hard now, but a real pain in 2005), he gives your party an item. Small change the NPC gives each member of the party an item.
Treasure Chests. These are 'hidden', free, chests (do not require keys to open), that drop gold items (rare items). However there are some modifiers to these resource nodes....they can only be accessed every 30 days by a character and the more frequently you use these nodes the quality of the drops decreases. This shows the extent that the devs/gms/whoever can control the drop rates of rarer items. If they want a node to be usable every 15 minutes/PC they can choose to do so. Only want an item available annually they can do so.
C) Drops from kills. We know this is a possible way to gather resources. Can anyone consider the idea that you would have to fight your way to Maw the Mountain Heart? Ughh. Definitley keeps the prices of those drops high!
Anyway, you can see that there are game mechanics in place that are adjustable by time, quantity, and location that will keep the economy from exploding into worthless items that every person can make.
Instead of +1 level up per crafted item, you get 2-3 lvl ups (wohoo! -_-)... and Anet just had to copy that high level cap from WoW?
Not having to compete with other players when getting nodes just makes the world more unrealistic.
Combining 4 items to craft one just forces me to look for some lame gw2 fansite to get the recipes every /*#% i want to craft something new.
The only thing that might get me excited is if they combine "crafting stations" with dynamic event system. Having to defend a "crafting village" from centaurs sounds a lot more exciting than just defending it for the sake of "Merchant NPCs" and event reward.
You really don't get it do you. Why would'nt we think they would innovate the crafting system when they did with EVERYTHING else. Since there has really only been ONLY ONE game in the series its hard to say that A) Its a series and What the series has been about. I think you are confuseing the gear based grind of wow with the guild wars idea of you can have lots of different LOOKING gear but the stats don't change. Some of it is harder to get then others but geting does NOT give you an advantage unlike in wow where the harder to get stuff DOES. You would be supprised how MUCH people like and enjoy a GOOD crafting and that its A LOT more then just a side thing to do. pvp for me is VERY unimportant and I would'nt care if they left it out of the game. BUT I can understand that SOME people like and enjoy it a lot so I could understand if the pvp system badly done people will complain. SO why is it so hard for YOU to understand that crafting is important to other people even if its not for YOU.
One game in the series? Are you stupid? There's 3 plus an expansion pack.
No I would NOT be surprised by how many people that like crafting systems. I like to craft in MMOs, I never said otherwise you complete idiot. You think I don't care about the crafting in this game? I do. I'm discussing it right now. So obviously I do. But I will not fool myself into thinking that they were going innovate the crafting system. ESPECIALLY when the original series didn't have a robust crafting system at all. Just because they're "innovating" the other systems does not give anyone the right to believe they're going to innovate a part of the game that is not as important.
And to anyone who thinks this is going to be a gear/equipment driven game, you must be crazy. Yes, they're putting a little bit more focus on equipment, but it still doesn't matter as much as personal skill itself. That's what Guild Wars has ALWAYS been about.
If I have a copy of factions and you have nightfall do we log into DIFFERENT games. NO we login to the SAME ONE. So like I said its really only ONE game. Nows whos the stupid idiot. Clearly YOU.
Just because you posting in topic does'nt mean you care about the subject. As anyone can see form your posts. Thats twice you called the crafting system unimportant. No one who claims to care about crafting or likes to do it would say that unless thier a total idiot like you that is. And like I said before crafting is MORE important than pvp to a LOT of people. Probley more people than like to pvp actually.
If they're "innovating" the other systems AND the old system was not good Thats precisely WHY we have the right to expect them to do something with the crafting system. Also becasue they said they where @ gamescom 2010 . I don't remember the excat quote but they said something like they where excited and could'nt wait to show us the new crafting system. Why on earth would they think we would be excited about this crappy wow crafting system that has MORE grinding that anything that Anet has ever done before ? I have no idea.
You really should pay more attnetion to what Anet have been saying about GW2 as there is a LOT more focus on gear/armour than there was in GW1.
Login to the same one? Then what the hell is Factions and Nightfall if not games in the series? Expansion packs? Because that sure as hell is not true AT ALL. Expansion packs, you'd need the full game to play it. You can buy Factions, Prophecies, and Nightfall alone by themselves and play all you want. You're an idiot. There's no denying it.
I care about the crafting system. But as I said before, it's unimportant COMPARED to the rest of the game. Guild Wars has never been about crafting gear or equpiment which is precisely my point. I play MMOs for a variety of different reasons. And if crafting isn't a big part of one game, that doesn't mean I don't like crafting in other MMOs. So when they said they'll feature a robust crafting system, of course I'll care about that. But it's still not a big part of the game.
You do NOT have the right to expect innovation for the crafting system. They took what was in the original Guild Wars series, and made it more in depth. They never said ANYTHING about innovating the crafting system. They just said it'll be more robust than the system in the original series. Your fault for being disappointed. Not theirs.
Did you even read my post when I was talking about gear and equipment? I specifically pointed out that yes they're putting more focus on gear and equipment but it's still not as important as personal skill. You really are an idiot. It's like you just skim through my post, only read certain parts and then reply. Something a definite idiot would do.
Instead of +1 level up per crafted item, you get 2-3 lvl ups (wohoo! -_-)... and Anet just had to copy that high level cap from WoW?
Not having to compete with other players when getting nodes just makes the world more unrealistic.
Combining 4 items to craft one just forces me to look for some lame gw2 fansite to get the recipes every /*#% i want to craft something new.
The only thing that might get me excited is if they combine "crafting stations" with dynamic event system. Having to defend a "crafting village" from centaurs sounds a lot more exciting than just defending it for the sake of "Merchant NPCs" and event reward.
Did you really just criticize what ANet is doing because it makes a FANTASY world unrealistic? Wow...
It astounds me how idiotic the people on these forums really are.
I know MMO's are different from normal games I've been playing MMO's for 10 years and normal ones for a LOT longer . Its not haveing to ask someone or looking it up on a wiki thats the problem. Its that I have NO idea what mats I supposed to get to progress my crafting. EG in Lotro I knew if I got x copper and y tin I would be able to make z swords and progess would be made. But in GW2 I don't know mats to get so I could spend hours geting a loads of mats but not be able to make anything as I don't have the right mats. THATS the problem.
Only if you're mildly incompetent.
They already said that you start off knowing basic recipes, and component recipes. So you'll be able to make SOMETHING, at least.
I'm also assuming that basic recipes are going to be fairly easy. You know, like LotRO 'Oh, I can manufacture components like an iron hilt, and two iron blade pieces... if I combine these... oh hey presto, I got myself a sword. :V ' If you think things are going to be so cryptic and obscure (Look at the jeweller things you can make, like hooks, filigree and rings... I can think of a few ways to combine those just offhand) you won't even be able to make basic stuff, then I don't know what to tell you, really.
You couldn't make the MORE complex things in LotRO unless you got the special recipe drops anyway. The higher level/more advanced stuff is always gated away from you in MMOs somehow... in this case, it's experimentation (Or if you're that sort, wikipedia.).
So if I gave you a bunch of resources and you had NO idea what they where or what profession used them like we do now. You would be fine spending hours trying to find out what they made ? Thats nice for you but to me thats the worst sort of grinding.
Please tell me who IS'NT mildly incompetent at the start of a NEW MMO? and what thats has to do with my point about not knowing what resources I need for what profession. Also where does it says you get component recipes. As the blog says and I quote "Some basic recipes are automatically learned by characters, but the recipes for most items must be discovered by the crafter. A few recipes can only be learned from a trainer or from drops in the world." Where in there does it mention component recipes ? or for that matter in where in the entire blog as I have read it several times now and see NO mention of it at all.
Aslo it does not mention if you have a ring recipe EG 1 gold bar 1 silver 1 ruby if you have to put these in a certain order to get said ring or not. If you have to put them in order thats make it even worse.
What do you mean by the more complex stuff in lotro? As I can make the best stuff in the game with out recipes or resources that drop off mobs (unless its hides). I was'nt complaining about the gateing its self just the type of gate used.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
You really don't get it do you. Why would'nt we think they would innovate the crafting system when they did with EVERYTHING else. Since there has really only been ONLY ONE game in the series its hard to say that A) Its a series and What the series has been about. I think you are confuseing the gear based grind of wow with the guild wars idea of you can have lots of different LOOKING gear but the stats don't change. Some of it is harder to get then others but geting does NOT give you an advantage unlike in wow where the harder to get stuff DOES. You would be supprised how MUCH people like and enjoy a GOOD crafting and that its A LOT more then just a side thing to do. pvp for me is VERY unimportant and I would'nt care if they left it out of the game. BUT I can understand that SOME people like and enjoy it a lot so I could understand if the pvp system badly done people will complain. SO why is it so hard for YOU to understand that crafting is important to other people even if its not for YOU.
One game in the series? Are you stupid? There's 3 plus an expansion pack.
No I would NOT be surprised by how many people that like crafting systems. I like to craft in MMOs, I never said otherwise you complete idiot. You think I don't care about the crafting in this game? I do. I'm discussing it right now. So obviously I do. But I will not fool myself into thinking that they were going innovate the crafting system. ESPECIALLY when the original series didn't have a robust crafting system at all. Just because they're "innovating" the other systems does not give anyone the right to believe they're going to innovate a part of the game that is not as important.
And to anyone who thinks this is going to be a gear/equipment driven game, you must be crazy. Yes, they're putting a little bit more focus on equipment, but it still doesn't matter as much as personal skill itself. That's what Guild Wars has ALWAYS been about.
If I have a copy of factions and you have nightfall do we log into DIFFERENT games. NO we login to the SAME ONE. So like I said its really only ONE game. Nows whos the stupid idiot. Clearly YOU.
Just because you posting in topic does'nt mean you care about the subject. As anyone can see form your posts. Thats twice you called the crafting system unimportant. No one who claims to care about crafting or likes to do it would say that unless thier a total idiot like you that is. And like I said before crafting is MORE important than pvp to a LOT of people. Probley more people than like to pvp actually.
If they're "innovating" the other systems AND the old system was not good Thats precisely WHY we have the right to expect them to do something with the crafting system. Also becasue they said they where @ gamescom 2010 . I don't remember the excat quote but they said something like they where excited and could'nt wait to show us the new crafting system. Why on earth would they think we would be excited about this crappy wow crafting system that has MORE grinding that anything that Anet has ever done before ? I have no idea.
You really should pay more attnetion to what Anet have been saying about GW2 as there is a LOT more focus on gear/armour than there was in GW1.
useless drivel sniped
Sigh I would get more sense out of talking to a brick wall then you Welcome to my ignore list.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
I understand their intent on the discovery system and node system, however, my past experience with MMO's and all the diifferent things that have been tried tells me that their intent will fail miserably. 80 to 90 percent of all recipes will be known by the end of beta with websites listing them, some of them will even charge you money to access the "premium" recipes etc. For the bulk of the playerbase there will not be any true discovery...especially if GW2 is highly successfull...IE 100's of thousands of players each one discovering something minor and posting this minor tidbit to a website. This is why most "discovery" systems in MMO's are very hard to create and for developers to keep ahead of the crush of the players.
The node system seems interesting, however, again if these nodes are "permenant" and open to everyone, there will be no such thing as a rare node. The biggest exploit I can see is a guild creating disposable characters to come in and mine a "rare" node over and over again untill all of the materials needed are gathered. The only workaround from that end is if no harvestable materials can be traded(which I doubt will happen). In addition there will be maps available pointing out to everyone exactly where every node/resource is in game making the disposable character thing even easier to do.
If the UI is moddable(I dont remember if GW2 is or is not) then I imagine maps will be created with all of the hotpoints and robotic programs made to allow characters to do all this crafting stuff while watching TV or whatever. The upshot is while their intent is nice it will fail miserably within the first month. Every crafter will be exactly the same with the "best" recipes known to everyone minus the rare droped recipes that might require the recipe itself to be able to craft something.
The only solution to a true discovery type of system is if the devs had a way to make sure every player had a unique set of recipes and a unique way to combine each recipe in such a fashion that the information couuld not be posted to a website in any usefull way and would require each individual player to figure out the recipes themselves. The difficulty in such a system would be enourmous and more than likely far beyond the scope of any potential crafting to exist in this game. I do not even know of a way myself to make such a system really work unless the crafting of items included special things like sigils or runes that meant something different for every players. IE a rune labled "Kilo" might mean fire to one character and water to another character or strength to a third character and thus each character would have to discover the appropriate combinations for themselves. The rune would be consumed in the crafting and the final item would simply be a sword of fire or a sword with underwater breather or a sword with strength etc. The rune might be useable for sword for one person but not usable for swords for another person etc etc.
From Stephane Lo Presti: "We do realize that external resources will document the recipes and make it easier for players to discover them. If we dropped the recipes from monsters, or if players had to discover some hidden nook in the world in order to learn recipes, it is still easier for players using external resources to find the recipes, while making it more frustrating for the crafters who don’t go out of the game for the information. If a player wants to be able to keep themselves outfitted in gear, but doesn’t care about the rest of the crafting system, we don’t want to lock that player out or make them grind - they can find the specific recipes they want, and craft the items for themselves. Our goal is for the crafting system to be enjoyable and rewarding for players that enjoy crafting, without requiring players who don’t like it to have to spend a lot of time crafting, or feel that they need to learn a crafting discipline. These external resources can be used by players to bypass the discovery system, but if the player doesn’t actually enjoy crafting or discovering recipes on their own, we feel that this is a good thing."
Basically, the discovery system is to make finding recipes fun for people who care about that sort of thing, while simultaneously making it easy for someone who doesn't care to just skip it and get straight to crafting what they need without finding the recipe in-game first.
The crafting system does what it does, and it does it well. It takes the unnecessary grindy BS out of the same system that most other MMOs have, because that's the system that people who enjoy crafting actually like. There really isn't much room for innovation in crafting beyond adding minigames to the system...and that's not necessarily a good thing, because if you're bad at the minigame you'll always be bad at crafting.
Letting people harvest merc fodder for materials? Removing the need to fight over resource nodes? Cutting out the need to craft 80 useless items in order to get to a crafting level where you can produce something useful? These are innovations. If they're not bright and shiny enough for you, fine, but don't sit there and say that it's such a disappointing system. They changed exactly what they needed to to make crafting palatable to me, and I absolutely despise it in most other MMOs.
Basically, the discovery system is to make finding recipes fun for people who care about that sort of thing, while simultaneously making it easy for someone who doesn't care to just skip it and get straight to crafting what they need without finding the recipe in-game first.
The crafting system does what it does, and it does it well. It takes the unnecessary grindy BS out of the same system that most other MMOs have, because that's the system that people who enjoy crafting actually like. There really isn't much room for innovation in crafting beyond adding minigames to the system...and that's not necessarily a good thing, because if you're bad at the minigame you'll always be bad at crafting.
Letting people harvest merc fodder for materials? Removing the need to fight over resource nodes? Cutting out the need to craft 80 useless items in order to get to a crafting level where you can produce something useful? These are innovations. If they're not bright and shiny enough for you, fine, but don't sit there and say that it's such a disappointing system. They changed exactly what they needed to to make crafting palatable to me, and I absolutely despise it in most other MMOs.
Crafting is what it is. If people dont like the "grind" etc then why have a crafting system at all? You could make a system like many other games where you stick 2 or 3 objects into something with no skill required and automatically get an item out of the other end. This general attitude goes back to other things I have posted on many boards across the years which is : There is a general feeling of satisfaction that comes from accomplishing something difficult that other people are unable or unwilling to take the time to figure out. You can complain about difficulty all day long but essentially from my point of view the people who wish to remove all difficulty from a game are in the end asking for an MMO with just a couple of buttons on them.
Button A - auto level button. When you get tired of fighting certian mobs or a certtian zone just have a button that automatically levels you to whatever your desired level is.
Button b - Equip me button - rather than going through all the trouble of doing quests and fighting monsters lets just have a button that equips everyone with all of the best gear around automatically. That way everyone can be exactly the same and exactly equal.
In short order I can see dozens of ways for this system to be exploited to the point that anyone trying to do it the "hard" way will have all of the fun taken out of it by someone playing the game for 3 hours being about to outproduce and outequip the person trying to do things on their own and selling everything below cost where crafting just becomes a useless waste of time for everyone that doesnt have foriegn gold farmers working for them.
I personally predict it wont take more than a few months before every crafting station has all of the recipes built into them similar to the way EQ does now.
Basically, the discovery system is to make finding recipes fun for people who care about that sort of thing, while simultaneously making it easy for someone who doesn't care to just skip it and get straight to crafting what they need without finding the recipe in-game first.
The crafting system does what it does, and it does it well. It takes the unnecessary grindy BS out of the same system that most other MMOs have, because that's the system that people who enjoy crafting actually like. There really isn't much room for innovation in crafting beyond adding minigames to the system...and that's not necessarily a good thing, because if you're bad at the minigame you'll always be bad at crafting.
Letting people harvest merc fodder for materials? Removing the need to fight over resource nodes? Cutting out the need to craft 80 useless items in order to get to a crafting level where you can produce something useful? These are innovations. If they're not bright and shiny enough for you, fine, but don't sit there and say that it's such a disappointing system. They changed exactly what they needed to to make crafting palatable to me, and I absolutely despise it in most other MMOs.
Crafting is what it is. If people dont like the "grind" etc then why have a crafting system at all?
Well that's retarded. You could have said the same for the leveling system, but they're changing that. Same for gear acquisition, skill point reallocation, etc. Crafting doesn't have to be a boring slog, it just happens to be the grindiest of mechanics in most MMOs.
In short order I can see dozens of ways for this system to be exploited to the point that anyone trying to do it the "hard" way will have all of the fun taken out of it by someone playing the game for 3 hours being about to outproduce and outequip the person trying to do things on their own and selling everything below cost where crafting just becomes a useless waste of time for everyone that doesnt have foriegn gold farmers working for them.
First off, recipes are gated by rank in crafting ability, so no, you can't make the Sword of 1000 Truths after playing for 3 hours. The difference here is that they're designing crafting ranks to go up roughly at the same rate as your player level, if you craft yourself level-appropriate gear. No more crafting 100 cloth gloves that were useful 10 levels ago just to merc them because the auction house is full of thousands of people doing the same thing.
You're missing the point that the sheer act of discovery is what makes it "fun" for some people. ANet is well aware that min-maxers (like, probably, yourself) will just wiki the recipes to make what they want to make and otherwise not touch crafting. Huzzah! Both parties get what they want.
And...wtf? How did gold farmers come into this?
I personally predict it wont take more than a few months before every crafting station has all of the recipes built into them similar to the way EQ does now.
Not if they support their system and continue adding recipes to the game for us to find.
Oh, and who the f*** cares? As was pointed out on another forum: solutions for every puzzle in every game ever made can be found online. Does that mean that we just shouldn't make puzzles in our games anymore, because we can read it online? Or how about stories; why should I play through a storyline if I could just read the wiki summary and get the full plot of the game?
This nihilistic "recipes will be posted online so the discovery system is useless" sentiment is absurd. If you plan on using wiki to look up every recipe, by all means, do so! You'll be in exactly the same situation as you would have been had they nixed the discovery system and just given you all the recipes up front. There will be literally no difference to you and your gameplay, so why should you care? Let the people who enjoy discovery and mystery have their fun; if they ever feel like they're at an unfair advantage compared to someone who wikis, the wiki is right there for them to use as well. There is no way to prevent knowledge from spreading, so why bitch about it?
Posts in red. This forum's quoting function is terrible.
From Stephane Lo Presti: "We do realize that external resources will document the recipes and make it easier for players to discover them. If we dropped the recipes from monsters, or if players had to discover some hidden nook in the world in order to learn recipes, it is still easier for players using external resources to find the recipes, while making it more frustrating for the crafters who don’t go out of the game for the information. If a player wants to be able to keep themselves outfitted in gear, but doesn’t care about the rest of the crafting system, we don’t want to lock that player out or make them grind - they can find the specific recipes they want, and craft the items for themselves. Our goal is for the crafting system to be enjoyable and rewarding for players that enjoy crafting, without requiring players who don’t like it to have to spend a lot of time crafting, or feel that they need to learn a crafting discipline. These external resources can be used by players to bypass the discovery system, but if the player doesn’t actually enjoy crafting or discovering recipes on their own, we feel that this is a good thing."
Basically, the discovery system is to make finding recipes fun for people who care about that sort of thing, while simultaneously making it easy for someone who doesn't care to just skip it and get straight to crafting what they need without finding the recipe in-game first.
The crafting system does what it does, and it does it well. It takes the unnecessary grindy BS out of the same system that most other MMOs have, because that's the system that people who enjoy crafting actually like. There really isn't much room for innovation in crafting beyond adding minigames to the system...and that's not necessarily a good thing, because if you're bad at the minigame you'll always be bad at crafting.
Letting people harvest merc fodder for materials? Removing the need to fight over resource nodes? Cutting out the need to craft 80 useless items in order to get to a crafting level where you can produce something useful? These are innovations. If they're not bright and shiny enough for you, fine, but don't sit there and say that it's such a disappointing system. They changed exactly what they needed to to make crafting palatable to me, and I absolutely despise it in most other MMOs.
I don't like the traditional crafting grind very much either, but this way sounds way too trivial. Why would anyone pay for anything if it's just a few mouse clicks to make it yourself? No economy based on crafting that's for sure based on those descriptions, hope there's more too i than that.
Personally the perfect system for me would be like almost like they have now, but make discoveries random when you pick up the crafting focus and make them mentally challening mini games, if you suck at it or hate it then too bad, go and buy it.
Originally posted by Meowhead Originally posted by Foomerang
Hm, ok. From what I read it seems like you put different ingredients in varying orders to yield different items. That is how you discover recipes. So im not sure how you came up with having a recipe first and getting it right. Not even sure what you mean by that actually, heh.
The point isnt to grind out every profession nor is it to eliminate grinding out every profession. The actual point is that in a balanced crafting system/economy you dont have the option to be 100% self sufficient. You may have to *gasp* trade and work with others just like all the other pve content. I don't think you either 1. Understand what RNG means, or 2. Understand how the combining ingredients works. I'm not sure which of those two it is, but you're severely off base with one of those. Care to explain a little further why you think it's RNG, so I can gently correct you? Also, if you think just a little further, you'll realize the ability to swap professions isn't going to be the main thing that affects whether or not you need to trade with others. If people can level these crafting jobs up fairly easily (400 max skill points, with multiple skill points per some items, and the ability to max out your crafting skill WITHOUT crafting anything above and beyond the items you'll be using yourself means a pretty easy leveling, if you ask me), people can level up without any profession (class) level restriction (So you can be a maxed out weaponsmith while being a level 1 warrior, for example), and everybody can gather every single resource (There is no sort of gathering type jobs, only crafting), then it would be just as easy (... and actually cheaper) to create a bunch of alts and slap the alternate crafting jobs on them. There's only 8 jobs, so it takes 1 main character and 3 alts. That's hardly onerous on the player, and at worst requires a little bit of inventory juggling. We don't KNOW how the economy balances out, because nobody is playing the game yet. The question becomes, what is done with all those resources that every single player in the game (Whether they're crafting or not) are going to be gathering? Will resources become as valuable as dirt? There were some pretty expensive rare resources in GW1 that suggest that the economy could be built around EXTREMELY hard to collect resources, that you need a lot of to craft high level recipes. So it's quite possible that the biggest blockade both to maxing out professions and to having multiple high level ones, is lack of resources. A lot of trade may revolve around the high end, rare resources, and the rare items that the highest level crafters make that go through the bother of getting the rarest recipes (The ones that are monster drops). They'll be shelling out a lot of money to corner the market on certain rare resources to build their items, and other people will be shelling out even more money to get those rare weapons/armors or whatever. Since we know pretty much nothing about the rarity of dropped recipes, just how well they're going to hide recipes using the rarest of materials, or just how rare those rarest materials are, you really can't speak of how the economy is going to work, and how reliant we'll be on other players. It's a very high possibility that gathering for the highest end items will be a communal effort though, with the input of several high level players needed just to bang out a single set of super-rare-leet-uber armor. Since neither of us know most of the pertinent facts, and all I'm going on is how GW1 crafting worked, neither of us can answer the question of just how robust and vivid the economy will work once it's really going. All we CAN answer, is that your problem with people being able to switch crafting jobs with a fee is not where the possible problems with the economy are going to crop up. You're worrying about something as if this were a different game than it actually is. Originally posted by william4
"In addition, most crafters can create upgrades for their gear. For instance, a weaponsmith can craft a handle which can be attached to melee weapons to give them a chance to poison enemies." cool i like the upgrading part , but a handle that some how adds poison seems dumb. guess im just nit picking that last point meh just me though.
Have you ever noticed that lots of weapons in games have effects like lightning, poison, fire or whatever? GW1 just has magical hilts that give effects like that. It helps if you imagine them imbued with mystical powers and that they have lots of fancy runes drawn on them under the wrappings. GW1 was always like that... different parts of a weapon had different types of enchantments you could have. Apparently in the GW universe, their crafters put magic onto certain parts of the weapon. I'm not really sure how this is any more or less unbelievable than any OTHER method of making magic weapons.
You are right, I incorrectly used the term rng to describe recipe discovery. I was referring to arranging various materials to yield different recipes which imho is a crap way to "craft". I know youre trying to champion gw2 and thats fine, we all have our favorite up and comers. But its an exercise in futility trying to convince mmo gamers that love crafting and economy that this system is worth a crap. Everyone will be able to craft everything within 2 months tops. That is a major letdown for someone who looks at mmorpgs for more than just hack n slash. If this game had a monthly fee, i wouldnt buy it. But of course it is b2p and its sad that its now the MAIN reason to even check this game out. (of course im speaking for myself and am not assuming other people feel this way)
You are right, I incorrectly used the term rng to describe recipe discovery. I was referring to arranging various materials to yield different recipes which imho is a crap way to "craft". I know youre trying to champion gw2 and thats fine, we all have our favorite up and comers. But its an exercise in futility trying to convince mmo gamers that love crafting and economy that this system is worth a crap. Everyone will be able to craft everything within 2 months tops. That is a major letdown for someone who looks at mmorpgs for more than just hack n slash.
If this game had a monthly fee, i wouldnt buy it. But of course it is b2p and its sad that its now the MAIN reason to even check this game out. (of course im speaking for myself and am not assuming other people feel this way)
The idea from ANET was to reduce the grind and it succed with that.
It is really not meant to be a new SWG, the crafting is just supposed to be something to do for the people who like that kind of gameplay.
No, it is not great crafting, I really do want to design both how the thing I make look and what effects it have but it is at least better than the old EQ2 "craft 35 tin swords" thing.
Not great but still better than at least 90% of all games, good enough for me but not perfect.
From Stephane Lo Presti: "We do realize that external resources will document the recipes and make it easier for players to discover them. If we dropped the recipes from monsters, or if players had to discover some hidden nook in the world in order to learn recipes, it is still easier for players using external resources to find the recipes, while making it more frustrating for the crafters who don’t go out of the game for the information. If a player wants to be able to keep themselves outfitted in gear, but doesn’t care about the rest of the crafting system, we don’t want to lock that player out or make them grind - they can find the specific recipes they want, and craft the items for themselves. Our goal is for the crafting system to be enjoyable and rewarding for players that enjoy crafting, without requiring players who don’t like it to have to spend a lot of time crafting, or feel that they need to learn a crafting discipline. These external resources can be used by players to bypass the discovery system, but if the player doesn’t actually enjoy crafting or discovering recipes on their own, we feel that this is a good thing."
Basically, the discovery system is to make finding recipes fun for people who care about that sort of thing, while simultaneously making it easy for someone who doesn't care to just skip it and get straight to crafting what they need without finding the recipe in-game first.
The crafting system does what it does, and it does it well. It takes the unnecessary grindy BS out of the same system that most other MMOs have, because that's the system that people who enjoy crafting actually like. There really isn't much room for innovation in crafting beyond adding minigames to the system...and that's not necessarily a good thing, because if you're bad at the minigame you'll always be bad at crafting.
Letting people harvest merc fodder for materials? Removing the need to fight over resource nodes? Cutting out the need to craft 80 useless items in order to get to a crafting level where you can produce something useful? These are innovations. If they're not bright and shiny enough for you, fine, but don't sit there and say that it's such a disappointing system. They changed exactly what they needed to to make crafting palatable to me, and I absolutely despise it in most other MMOs.
I don't like the traditional crafting grind very much either, but this way sounds way too trivial. Why would anyone pay for anything if it's just a few mouse clicks to make it yourself? No economy based on crafting that's for sure based on those descriptions, hope there's more too i than that. Personally I would like a mentally challening mini game, if you suck at it then too bad, go and buy it.
Why would anyone pay for anything if it's just a dungeon run away?
Yes, that's a bit more than a few mouse clicks, but then again, in order to do the few mouse clicks you need to have the materials. You can either go find them yourself (which takes time), or pay someone else for them (in which case you're just buying the materials instead of the final product, not a terribly big difference).
Everything can be obtained if you want it. Crafted gear is no exception. I don't see crafted gear as being a huge money maker after the game matures, but for the first year or so it'll probably be a big deal, and even after that it should be an easy way to always keep your character well equipped. I care more about what I can craft for myself than what I can craft to sell to other people, so this system is fine with me. It's somewhere in between GW1's system (where literally everyone could craft any craftable weapon or armor, provided you got to the city with the NPC crafter in it, which wasn't hard) and a "normal" MMO crafting system, where the grind barrier to entry is so enormous and the low-level crafted gear is so terrible that there aren't that many high level crafters, proportionally speaking, so high level crafted gear can be worth a bit. Sometimes.
Comments
first big let down so far , kinda lame was hoping for somthing a little better and more interactive. somthing closer to a Vanguard , swg, xyson.
also this part sounded pretty dumb
"In addition, most crafters can create upgrades for their gear. For instance, a weaponsmith can craft a handle which can be attached to melee weapons to give them a chance to poison enemies."
cool i like the upgrading part , but a handle that some how adds poison seems dumb. guess im just nit picking that last point meh just me though.
I don't think you either 1. Understand what RNG means, or 2. Understand how the combining ingredients works.
I'm not sure which of those two it is, but you're severely off base with one of those. Care to explain a little further why you think it's RNG, so I can gently correct you?
Also, if you think just a little further, you'll realize the ability to swap professions isn't going to be the main thing that affects whether or not you need to trade with others.
If people can level these crafting jobs up fairly easily (400 max skill points, with multiple skill points per some items, and the ability to max out your crafting skill WITHOUT crafting anything above and beyond the items you'll be using yourself means a pretty easy leveling, if you ask me), people can level up without any profession (class) level restriction (So you can be a maxed out weaponsmith while being a level 1 warrior, for example), and everybody can gather every single resource (There is no sort of gathering type jobs, only crafting), then it would be just as easy (... and actually cheaper) to create a bunch of alts and slap the alternate crafting jobs on them.
There's only 8 jobs, so it takes 1 main character and 3 alts. That's hardly onerous on the player, and at worst requires a little bit of inventory juggling.
We don't KNOW how the economy balances out, because nobody is playing the game yet. The question becomes, what is done with all those resources that every single player in the game (Whether they're crafting or not) are going to be gathering? Will resources become as valuable as dirt?
There were some pretty expensive rare resources in GW1 that suggest that the economy could be built around EXTREMELY hard to collect resources, that you need a lot of to craft high level recipes. So it's quite possible that the biggest blockade both to maxing out professions and to having multiple high level ones, is lack of resources.
A lot of trade may revolve around the high end, rare resources, and the rare items that the highest level crafters make that go through the bother of getting the rarest recipes (The ones that are monster drops). They'll be shelling out a lot of money to corner the market on certain rare resources to build their items, and other people will be shelling out even more money to get those rare weapons/armors or whatever.
Since we know pretty much nothing about the rarity of dropped recipes, just how well they're going to hide recipes using the rarest of materials, or just how rare those rarest materials are, you really can't speak of how the economy is going to work, and how reliant we'll be on other players.
It's a very high possibility that gathering for the highest end items will be a communal effort though, with the input of several high level players needed just to bang out a single set of super-rare-leet-uber armor.
Since neither of us know most of the pertinent facts, and all I'm going on is how GW1 crafting worked, neither of us can answer the question of just how robust and vivid the economy will work once it's really going.
All we CAN answer, is that your problem with people being able to switch crafting jobs with a fee is not where the possible problems with the economy are going to crop up. You're worrying about something as if this were a different game than it actually is.
Have you ever noticed that lots of weapons in games have effects like lightning, poison, fire or whatever?
GW1 just has magical hilts that give effects like that. It helps if you imagine them imbued with mystical powers and that they have lots of fancy runes drawn on them under the wrappings.
GW1 was always like that... different parts of a weapon had different types of enchantments you could have. Apparently in the GW universe, their crafters put magic onto certain parts of the weapon. I'm not really sure how this is any more or less unbelievable than any OTHER method of making magic weapons.
It is very similar to Guild Wars if you have played it.
This is very probably the best comment I have seen in a forum for years.
It really is a badass loom. The art design never stops impressing me. I am surprised there is not more innovation in the crafting department, but it seems like a solid system.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
This discovery system reminds me of EQ1's crafting system. You put your arrow shafts, bone tips, and feathers in the box and see what comes out. I enjoyed that - but I understand there are lots of folks who won't. The key thing is that people have to feel they are unique - in other words, some recipes should be rare - and I DO NOT mean high-level only, but just rare... so that if I have it I become sought after for my arrows/bullets, bows, whatever.
The idea that nodes are available for all is okay, too, although it will probably mean there won't be much of an economy around crafting mats. That is ok too, just different. And I'm sure the economy will exist - some people don't want to harvest. Some crafters will need mats they can't get yet because they are in higher level zones.
Compared to GW1 this is robust. Compared to WOW, LOTRO, and EQ1, I'd say it is perhaps on par. That is ok with me, but i'm anxious to hear reports from PAX East about how players like it.
If I have a copy of factions and you have nightfall do we log into DIFFERENT games. NO we login to the SAME ONE. So like I said its really only ONE game. Nows whos the stupid idiot. Clearly YOU.
Just because you posting in topic does'nt mean you care about the subject. As anyone can see form your posts. Thats twice you called the crafting system unimportant. No one who claims to care about crafting or likes to do it would say that unless thier a total idiot like you that is. And like I said before crafting is MORE important than pvp to a LOT of people. Probley more people than like to pvp actually.
If they're "innovating" the other systems AND the old system was not good Thats precisely WHY we have the right to expect them to do something with the crafting system. Also becasue they said they where @ gamescom 2010 . I don't remember the excat quote but they said something like they where excited and could'nt wait to show us the new crafting system. Why on earth would they think we would be excited about this crappy wow crafting system that has MORE grinding that anything that Anet has ever done before ? I have no idea.
You really should pay more attnetion to what Anet have been saying about GW2 as there is a LOT more focus on gear/armour than there was in GW1.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
I know MMO's are different from normal games I've been playing MMO's for 10 years and normal ones for a LOT longer . Its not haveing to ask someone or looking it up on a wiki thats the problem. Its that I have NO idea what mats I supposed to get to progress my crafting. EG in Lotro I knew if I got x copper and y tin I would be able to make z swords and progess would be made. But in GW2 I don't know mats to get so I could spend hours geting a loads of mats but not be able to make anything as I don't have the right mats. THATS the problem.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Only if you're mildly incompetent.
They already said that you start off knowing basic recipes, and component recipes. So you'll be able to make SOMETHING, at least.
I'm also assuming that basic recipes are going to be fairly easy. You know, like LotRO 'Oh, I can manufacture components like an iron hilt, and two iron blade pieces... if I combine these... oh hey presto, I got myself a sword. :V ' If you think things are going to be so cryptic and obscure (Look at the jeweller things you can make, like hooks, filigree and rings... I can think of a few ways to combine those just offhand) you won't even be able to make basic stuff, then I don't know what to tell you, really.
You couldn't make the MORE complex things in LotRO unless you got the special recipe drops anyway. The higher level/more advanced stuff is always gated away from you in MMOs somehow... in this case, it's experimentation (Or if you're that sort, wikipedia.).
Is there anything that says you couldn't make 50 of the same item to progress if you wanted to?
I also think that if there are enough recipes, then the discovery grind is minimized. Trying 50 different combinations to find one that works would be pretty awful. But being able to take what you have on you when you come back from your day's adventuring and having a good chance that you can make 3-4 items total off of what you happened to have picked up wouldn't be bad.
I don't think their goal in the first place is to have you grind out loads of mats at all, much less having to do it without even being sure you could make anything with them.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
We don't really know how this is going to work in practice yet. Again, I was a fan of discovery in other crafting games. But here is a way I can see it working within GW2's philosophy of rewarding interaction and experimentation without penalizing players:
You approach the badass Charr workbench. There are slots to put mats in. You have basic recipes available in a recipe book of sorts, so you know if you put a stack of these leaves, a stack of this water, and a stack of flasks in the bench and press combine it will create a stack of healing pots. Fine. But there is a "bonus" slot for additives. If you put the aforementioned mats in and throw an eye of crawl [or stack thereof] in the additive slot, and that isn't a valid recipe ... you still get your plain old healing pots. All you've lost is an eye of crawl that you were going to vendor anyway. If you put the head of a 3-eyed grumpus, however, then you get healing pots of greater insight. And since you are the only one foolish enough to put a 3-eyed grumpus head in there, or enough of a hoarder to get stacks of them, you now corner the market on healing pots of insight. And even when the wiki's publish the recipe, you may STILL be able to make cash off it, cos not many people want to farm 3-eyed grumpus. A lot of folks will be happy with the basic, never-fail, recipes. People who are really into crafting minigames will experiment and build a thriving business selling torches of wisdom and boneshaft arrows of evisceration.
A recipe can become viable as part of the econmy and make a player feel unique/special when it is "rare" or, conversely when the mats for it are obscure enough (not necessarily rare) that nobody farms them. I'm thinking of a certain fish that used to make a transmogrification pot in another game. I had the recipe which was a little rare, and then had the patience to fish for stacks of the fish to make it. There were only a couple of us on server doing that, and we sold those pots like mad for awhile.
One downside - virtual hoarders (you know who you are - you have panes and panes full of collector items in GW1 just in case Nick wants them next week) will fill inventory space with "white" items like 3-eyed grumus heads because they "might" become useful in crafting. That just complicates the inventory management mini-game and, frankly, will be good for Anet to sell more storage space to those hoarders. I'm ok with that as long as we get a crafting system that is useful (I HATE making things to sell to vendors - ala LOTRO), contributes to an economy and is fun.
"and you can stand and farm it?" That's the misinformation part. The resource does not appear imediately. I can suggest mechanics that I am sure that will maintain rarity that we already know about from GW1.
A) The Seer. An NPC that once you fight your way to his location (not very hard now, but a real pain in 2005), he gives your party an item. Small change the NPC gives each member of the party an item.
C) Drops from kills. We know this is a possible way to gather resources. Can anyone consider the idea that you would have to fight your way to Maw the Mountain Heart? Ughh. Definitley keeps the prices of those drops high!
Anyway, you can see that there are game mechanics in place that are adjustable by time, quantity, and location that will keep the economy from exploding into worthless items that every person can make.
So it's just like WoW, but...
Instead of +1 level up per crafted item, you get 2-3 lvl ups (wohoo! -_-)... and Anet just had to copy that high level cap from WoW?
Not having to compete with other players when getting nodes just makes the world more unrealistic.
Combining 4 items to craft one just forces me to look for some lame gw2 fansite to get the recipes every /*#% i want to craft something new.
The only thing that might get me excited is if they combine "crafting stations" with dynamic event system. Having to defend a "crafting village" from centaurs sounds a lot more exciting than just defending it for the sake of "Merchant NPCs" and event reward.
Login to the same one? Then what the hell is Factions and Nightfall if not games in the series? Expansion packs? Because that sure as hell is not true AT ALL. Expansion packs, you'd need the full game to play it. You can buy Factions, Prophecies, and Nightfall alone by themselves and play all you want. You're an idiot. There's no denying it.
I care about the crafting system. But as I said before, it's unimportant COMPARED to the rest of the game. Guild Wars has never been about crafting gear or equpiment which is precisely my point. I play MMOs for a variety of different reasons. And if crafting isn't a big part of one game, that doesn't mean I don't like crafting in other MMOs. So when they said they'll feature a robust crafting system, of course I'll care about that. But it's still not a big part of the game.
You do NOT have the right to expect innovation for the crafting system. They took what was in the original Guild Wars series, and made it more in depth. They never said ANYTHING about innovating the crafting system. They just said it'll be more robust than the system in the original series. Your fault for being disappointed. Not theirs.
Did you even read my post when I was talking about gear and equipment? I specifically pointed out that yes they're putting more focus on gear and equipment but it's still not as important as personal skill. You really are an idiot. It's like you just skim through my post, only read certain parts and then reply. Something a definite idiot would do.
Did you really just criticize what ANet is doing because it makes a FANTASY world unrealistic? Wow...
It astounds me how idiotic the people on these forums really are.
So if I gave you a bunch of resources and you had NO idea what they where or what profession used them like we do now. You would be fine spending hours trying to find out what they made ? Thats nice for you but to me thats the worst sort of grinding.
Please tell me who IS'NT mildly incompetent at the start of a NEW MMO? and what thats has to do with my point about not knowing what resources I need for what profession. Also where does it says you get component recipes. As the blog says and I quote "Some basic recipes are automatically learned by characters, but the recipes for most items must be discovered by the crafter. A few recipes can only be learned from a trainer or from drops in the world." Where in there does it mention component recipes ? or for that matter in where in the entire blog as I have read it several times now and see NO mention of it at all.
Aslo it does not mention if you have a ring recipe EG 1 gold bar 1 silver 1 ruby if you have to put these in a certain order to get said ring or not. If you have to put them in order thats make it even worse.
What do you mean by the more complex stuff in lotro? As I can make the best stuff in the game with out recipes or resources that drop off mobs (unless its hides). I was'nt complaining about the gateing its self just the type of gate used.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Sigh I would get more sense out of talking to a brick wall then you Welcome to my ignore list.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Looks like someone can't win this argument so they resort to putting me on their ignore list.
I understand their intent on the discovery system and node system, however, my past experience with MMO's and all the diifferent things that have been tried tells me that their intent will fail miserably. 80 to 90 percent of all recipes will be known by the end of beta with websites listing them, some of them will even charge you money to access the "premium" recipes etc. For the bulk of the playerbase there will not be any true discovery...especially if GW2 is highly successfull...IE 100's of thousands of players each one discovering something minor and posting this minor tidbit to a website. This is why most "discovery" systems in MMO's are very hard to create and for developers to keep ahead of the crush of the players.
The node system seems interesting, however, again if these nodes are "permenant" and open to everyone, there will be no such thing as a rare node. The biggest exploit I can see is a guild creating disposable characters to come in and mine a "rare" node over and over again untill all of the materials needed are gathered. The only workaround from that end is if no harvestable materials can be traded(which I doubt will happen). In addition there will be maps available pointing out to everyone exactly where every node/resource is in game making the disposable character thing even easier to do.
If the UI is moddable(I dont remember if GW2 is or is not) then I imagine maps will be created with all of the hotpoints and robotic programs made to allow characters to do all this crafting stuff while watching TV or whatever. The upshot is while their intent is nice it will fail miserably within the first month. Every crafter will be exactly the same with the "best" recipes known to everyone minus the rare droped recipes that might require the recipe itself to be able to craft something.
The only solution to a true discovery type of system is if the devs had a way to make sure every player had a unique set of recipes and a unique way to combine each recipe in such a fashion that the information couuld not be posted to a website in any usefull way and would require each individual player to figure out the recipes themselves. The difficulty in such a system would be enourmous and more than likely far beyond the scope of any potential crafting to exist in this game. I do not even know of a way myself to make such a system really work unless the crafting of items included special things like sigils or runes that meant something different for every players. IE a rune labled "Kilo" might mean fire to one character and water to another character or strength to a third character and thus each character would have to discover the appropriate combinations for themselves. The rune would be consumed in the crafting and the final item would simply be a sword of fire or a sword with underwater breather or a sword with strength etc. The rune might be useable for sword for one person but not usable for swords for another person etc etc.
That would be a true discovery system.
Maelkor....they know.
From Stephane Lo Presti: "We do realize that external resources will document the recipes and make it easier for players to discover them. If we dropped the recipes from monsters, or if players had to discover some hidden nook in the world in order to learn recipes, it is still easier for players using external resources to find the recipes, while making it more frustrating for the crafters who don’t go out of the game for the information. If a player wants to be able to keep themselves outfitted in gear, but doesn’t care about the rest of the crafting system, we don’t want to lock that player out or make them grind - they can find the specific recipes they want, and craft the items for themselves. Our goal is for the crafting system to be enjoyable and rewarding for players that enjoy crafting, without requiring players who don’t like it to have to spend a lot of time crafting, or feel that they need to learn a crafting discipline. These external resources can be used by players to bypass the discovery system, but if the player doesn’t actually enjoy crafting or discovering recipes on their own, we feel that this is a good thing."
Basically, the discovery system is to make finding recipes fun for people who care about that sort of thing, while simultaneously making it easy for someone who doesn't care to just skip it and get straight to crafting what they need without finding the recipe in-game first.
The crafting system does what it does, and it does it well. It takes the unnecessary grindy BS out of the same system that most other MMOs have, because that's the system that people who enjoy crafting actually like. There really isn't much room for innovation in crafting beyond adding minigames to the system...and that's not necessarily a good thing, because if you're bad at the minigame you'll always be bad at crafting.
Letting people harvest merc fodder for materials? Removing the need to fight over resource nodes? Cutting out the need to craft 80 useless items in order to get to a crafting level where you can produce something useful? These are innovations. If they're not bright and shiny enough for you, fine, but don't sit there and say that it's such a disappointing system. They changed exactly what they needed to to make crafting palatable to me, and I absolutely despise it in most other MMOs.
Crafting is what it is. If people dont like the "grind" etc then why have a crafting system at all? You could make a system like many other games where you stick 2 or 3 objects into something with no skill required and automatically get an item out of the other end. This general attitude goes back to other things I have posted on many boards across the years which is : There is a general feeling of satisfaction that comes from accomplishing something difficult that other people are unable or unwilling to take the time to figure out. You can complain about difficulty all day long but essentially from my point of view the people who wish to remove all difficulty from a game are in the end asking for an MMO with just a couple of buttons on them.
Button A - auto level button. When you get tired of fighting certian mobs or a certtian zone just have a button that automatically levels you to whatever your desired level is.
Button b - Equip me button - rather than going through all the trouble of doing quests and fighting monsters lets just have a button that equips everyone with all of the best gear around automatically. That way everyone can be exactly the same and exactly equal.
In short order I can see dozens of ways for this system to be exploited to the point that anyone trying to do it the "hard" way will have all of the fun taken out of it by someone playing the game for 3 hours being about to outproduce and outequip the person trying to do things on their own and selling everything below cost where crafting just becomes a useless waste of time for everyone that doesnt have foriegn gold farmers working for them.
I personally predict it wont take more than a few months before every crafting station has all of the recipes built into them similar to the way EQ does now.
Posts in red. This forum's quoting function is terrible.
I don't like the traditional crafting grind very much either, but this way sounds way too trivial. Why would anyone pay for anything if it's just a few mouse clicks to make it yourself? No economy based on crafting that's for sure based on those descriptions, hope there's more too i than that.
Personally the perfect system for me would be like almost like they have now, but make discoveries random when you pick up the crafting focus and make them mentally challening mini games, if you suck at it or hate it then too bad, go and buy it.
GW1 just has magical hilts that give effects like that. It helps if you imagine them imbued with mystical powers and that they have lots of fancy runes drawn on them under the wrappings.
GW1 was always like that... different parts of a weapon had different types of enchantments you could have. Apparently in the GW universe, their crafters put magic onto certain parts of the weapon. I'm not really sure how this is any more or less unbelievable than any OTHER method of making magic weapons.
You are right, I incorrectly used the term rng to describe recipe discovery. I was referring to arranging various materials to yield different recipes which imho is a crap way to "craft". I know youre trying to champion gw2 and thats fine, we all have our favorite up and comers. But its an exercise in futility trying to convince mmo gamers that love crafting and economy that this system is worth a crap. Everyone will be able to craft everything within 2 months tops. That is a major letdown for someone who looks at mmorpgs for more than just hack n slash.
If this game had a monthly fee, i wouldnt buy it. But of course it is b2p and its sad that its now the MAIN reason to even check this game out. (of course im speaking for myself and am not assuming other people feel this way)
The idea from ANET was to reduce the grind and it succed with that.
It is really not meant to be a new SWG, the crafting is just supposed to be something to do for the people who like that kind of gameplay.
No, it is not great crafting, I really do want to design both how the thing I make look and what effects it have but it is at least better than the old EQ2 "craft 35 tin swords" thing.
Not great but still better than at least 90% of all games, good enough for me but not perfect.
Why would anyone pay for anything if it's just a dungeon run away?
Yes, that's a bit more than a few mouse clicks, but then again, in order to do the few mouse clicks you need to have the materials. You can either go find them yourself (which takes time), or pay someone else for them (in which case you're just buying the materials instead of the final product, not a terribly big difference).
Everything can be obtained if you want it. Crafted gear is no exception. I don't see crafted gear as being a huge money maker after the game matures, but for the first year or so it'll probably be a big deal, and even after that it should be an easy way to always keep your character well equipped. I care more about what I can craft for myself than what I can craft to sell to other people, so this system is fine with me. It's somewhere in between GW1's system (where literally everyone could craft any craftable weapon or armor, provided you got to the city with the NPC crafter in it, which wasn't hard) and a "normal" MMO crafting system, where the grind barrier to entry is so enormous and the low-level crafted gear is so terrible that there aren't that many high level crafters, proportionally speaking, so high level crafted gear can be worth a bit. Sometimes.