No matter what in life, the glass is both half empty and half full. Acknowledgement and Focusing are two different things. You can acknowledge one. But ultimately, happiness (or lack thereof) is determined by what you focus on.
People that play the games they like, do acknowledge the negatives. But what they ultimately focus on are the positives. And that is why they are happy. Like someone else stated. Why is it that most - not only acknowledge - but solely focus on the negatives? These people are often not happy...and never will be.
The choice for each person is theirs and theirs alone to make.
... but anybody who logs onto mmorpg.com and clicks on a thread called 'Your game sucks, and this is why' is really just asking for it, and I'm finding it hard to sympathize that somebody is being a buzzkill to them.
Oh, but that's just forum pvp
However, I can recall that when I first started visiting mmorpg.com forums I treated it as I treated some other forums I visited, as places to find helpful info and interesting news about games and where discussions were held in a fairly reasonable manner, online gathering places of likeminded people. Sure, there'd always be the occasional hater or extreme critic, what's new?
These expectations weren't conform with mmorpg.com forums though: the number of persistent onesided negative posters and biased critics and even haters of a game ('game X will fail and I'll be happy if it does' etc) were far more than expected or than were present on other forums.
So yeah, I can understand why new posters or those who don't visit often might be irritated when the threads and debates in them on mmorpg.com are often different than they at first expected or have grown to expect from other forums and sites
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
At the heart of the problem is simple egoism and insecurity. Too many people see any negative statement agaisnt something they like as a personal attack, rather than another person simply stating their own opinion of how they view something.
On the flip side are those who rant on about how much something sucks and refuse to believe that anyone could honestly hold a contrary opion and actually like something they so personaly loath, so that person must be deluded or disingenuous. A behavior I admit I am frequently guilty of exhibiting.
Though honestly who the heck do you think you are Mr OP to have the right to ask what is wrong with all of us when your avatar is from the stunningly annoying "whaaaampyre" series, Twilight? (yes I am of course just kidding, well kind of.)
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Well for me its very simple, if I am having fun I see no reason to focus on the negatives or the negatives are things I simply do not give a flying *uck about. When people tell me how much better WoW used to be...I just dont give a shit. Im not playing the game 5 years ago, Im playing it now. When people complain about how the hardcore players are getting screwed...why should I care when I am not a hardcore raider for example? Its a problem that does not affect me thua its not a problem.
While i personally can acknowledge negatives about games i play, i see far too often people only focusing on the negative. no matter all the good parts of a game they just want to rip a game apart for having negative parts.
Granted people have been burnt on buying games they don't like, but they have to take part of the blame for not researching properly.
i try to enjoy a game for what it is, the Dev presents us their vision of a game they made and i try it out and decide if its what i like or don't like. i swear people take it so personal if a game isnt designed how they want it, its like they believe the game should have been designed just around what they like lol
i don't see the point in raging if a game is not what i like after i try it out lol.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
Well, there are several degrees to how much people ignore or overlook the negative aspects of an MMO they enjoy, ranging from the, "I acknowledge there are issues, BUT..." to, "No, there's NOTHING wrong with this game! It's perfect!" The former, of course, being a resonable opinion, and the latter being delusional. But I believe they stem from the same basic reasons:
1. When you play an MMO, you're trying to relieve stress, escape from real life, or just have fun. If you focus on what's wrong with the game you're trying to enjoy, you defeat yourself.
2. People are paying for these games, and no one wants to feel like they're wasting money. They'll justify their spending by either ignoring or downplaying the negatives, or convincing themselves that things will get better later on (though because MMOs are massive timesinks, sometimes the "endgame" IS better than the beginning, so they're right).
3. The negatives don't affect them personally. "I don't give a damn if the crafting sucks, I'm a PvPer and the game has great PvP."
I'm sure there are other reasons that are more complex than just "blind fanbotism," but these are the prominent three.
I think many people acknowledge faults in their beloved games. From experience ...even if one avidly criticizes various aspects of a game...and still recommend and love the game...most haters of said game conveniently ignore everything except the "endorsement " and throw around the over-used "fanboi" moniker.
A negative for you dusnt have to be a negative for me
Very true.
Some people hate instancing. Others like it. To the person that hates it, it's a negative. But it's not to person that likes it.
Not all MMO players have the same preferences. A lot of people overlook that fact.
And that's exactly my point. Too many people make these blanket games that x game has all these issues but are they really issues or is it that the game doesn't fit into their idea of what a particular game should be.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen a particular player claim that there is a problem when there are also a good many players that don't think it is a problem.
Aion = grind, I've seen many people who just complained and complained that Aion was a grind. For me Aion was one of the easiest games to level up in.
Rift = too many rifts and invasions, some people claim this is a huge problem and others (like me ) are fine with it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
People are defensive by nature. I read a thread last night where someone posted about clearly trying to enjoy Rift but simply did it. Sure enough, the posts that follow from defensive fanboys all bash him on a personal level. Completely uncalled for, but because the guy had something negative to say about their game all of a sudden they are living life wrong and a whole slew of other negative presonal attacks ensued.
A negative for you dusnt have to be a negative for me
Very true.
Some people hate instancing. Others like it. To the person that hates it, it's a negative. But it's not to person that likes it.
Not all MMO players have the same preferences. A lot of people overlook that fact.
And that's exactly my point. Too many people make these blanket games that x game has all these issues but are they really issues or is it that the game doesn't fit into their idea of what a particular game should be.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen a particular player claim that there is a problem when there are also a good many players that don't think it is a problem.
Aion = grind, I've seen many people who just complained and complained that Aion was a grind. For me Aion was one of the easiest games to level up in.
Rift = too many rifts and invasions, some people claim this is a huge problem and others (like me ) are fine with it.
I agree with you, and it's the kind of stuff you see time and time again on this site.
So many times, "negatives" are based on opinion, and not absolute fact. The same goes for many "positives".
To the OP, can you give us some examples of concrete, unassailable negatives?
It's for the same reason we find it hard to critique ourselves. We want to love ourselves for who we are not what our flaws and weaknesses are. We try to focus on the good in us (non-emo, non-depressed always exceptions to the rules!) If we enjoy something we do not want to admit or perhaps even outright ignore its flaws. It's almost like playing a game is a relationship with your significant other though WAY less important. It's hard to point the flaws out at the time if you are totally in love. You miss the glaringly obvious so you can focus on what you enjoy in the releationship the most. It's a flaw of mankind that turns out to be a benefit. Enjoy it while you still absolutely love a game because when you begin to notice its flaws it might just be time to move on. If it doesn't apply to you then it could be you're very observant and able to be completely objective. Some people can do this others can't and you shouldn't force them to be any other way.
Which is very related to past experiences. Which I GUESS one MIGHT call education to a certain extent.
You may not enjoy the art style of a game. I might love that style. My education did not cause that. My past experiences did. You might enjoy a shooter game based on one man armies. I might enjoy a shooter based around objective team work.
Now, if you said that a game runs very poorly on any computer (and it did) that would be one thing everyone should agree on.
One must think about what they say when it is an opinion before throwing things out like this.
Eventually people will realize the negatives in their game, and will not be afraid to admit it. A good example of this is LOTRO fans that are expressing there displeasure over the current and upcoming pay to win items in the game, and how turbine said a million times before F2P there would be no P2W but are now adding tons of it on top of what they already added.
It depends on what you're talking about when you say, "Bad". Using Rift as an example, some people have the opinion (expressed in these forums) that the game is bad because it has elements of game play that are found in other games. In other words, it's a "clone". Other people find these game elements to be good or enjoyable. Those game elements that exist in other games are neither intrinsically bad or good, they just are. The opinion comes in when you think of them as bad or good.
There are things that are intrinsically bad in mmorpg, like duping exploits, avatars that float above the ground or don't stay attached to their mounts, etc. Allods initial implementation of a cash shop is a good example of something that isn't a game breaking bug or exploit, but is still bad.
When pointing out the flaws of various games (a hobby of many on these forums) people seem to see little difference between their opinions of reality and reality itself.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's a strange mentallity: "My choice is better than your choice; and here's why." The speaker goes on to list the positive aspects of his/her choice, and the negative aspects of your choice.
Maybe a need to justify one's actions. People often need to remind themselves why they feel a certain way about something. Also I think pride has something to do with it.
Because, like in RL, many people like to focus on the positive.
"Carry your own weather" dude.
To make an additional response to this post, a game can never improve if people ONLY focus on the positive. For problems to actually get fixed, people have to be willing ot acknowledge them and discuss them.
Not true...at all.
If my supervisor at work only focused on my negatives.
I never said "only focusing on the negative", so theres really no reason to read any further if your basing your post on the idea that I did.
Because, like in RL, many people like to focus on the positive.
"Carry your own weather" dude.
To make an additional response to this post, a game can never improve if people ONLY focus on the positive. For problems to actually get fixed, people have to be willing ot acknowledge them and discuss them.
Not true...at all.
If my supervisor at work only focused on my negatives.
I never said "only focusing on the negative", so theres really no reason to read any further if your basing your post on the idea that I did.
The point that I was getting at....but failed...is that no matter what the product, no matter the effort, no matter the result, one can always find something that could have been done better. That's just the way we are. We judge and evaluate what other people do.
But...why is it necessary to point out all the flaws....even the minor ones. Or the ones that may be a flaw to me but isn't to you.
That's the thing with MMORPGs. What may be a negative to you might not be an issue to me. Class balance, PvP, PvE, RP, emotes, travel, death, graphics....all these things are opinions that people usually disagree on. They are not flaws or negatives in a game.
Things like bugs...those are negatives and I have yet to see anyone that closes their eyes to that. They may disagree on the severity, but...bugs are bugs.
It depends on what you're talking about when you say, "Bad". Using Rift as an example, some people have the opinion (expressed in these forums) that the game is bad because it has elements of game play that are found in other games. In other words, it's a "clone". Other people find these game elements to be good or enjoyable. Those game elements that exist in other games are neither intrinsically bad or good, they just are. The opinion comes in when you think of them as bad or good.
There are things that are intrinsically bad in mmorpg, like duping exploits, avatars that float above the ground or don't stay attached to their mounts, etc. Allods initial implementation of a cash shop is a good example of something that isn't a game breaking bug or exploit, but is still bad.
When pointing out the flaws of various games (a hobby of many on these forums) people seem to see little difference between their opinions of reality and reality itself.
Ultimately, even things that may be seen as apparent or "intrinsically bad" - like bugs, dupes, memory leaks, etc - come down to an opinion. Not generally an opinion on whether or not they exist, or whether or not they are "bad", but on degree.
That is to say: How bad is bad? How severe is it? How pervasive? How much does it impact each individual, and what are each individual's preferences and tolerances?
An infuriating "game-breaker" to one person might not even rise to the level of an annoyance to another. The player that sees it as a game-breaker often can't understand the opinion of the other, who appears to be "a player not willing to admit the negative" about his or her chosen game, when in fact, they just don't agree on the severity of the problem.
I agree completely with you that some people have an inability to discern fact from their personal opinion. Many have a tendency to believe they speak for everyone.
It's because most people only look for positive things about things they like, and disregard negative aspects. It's not just video games, it's everything. If you take a basic psychology class you should be able to figure this out. Great answers though, such as "immaturity", it shows the intelligence of this website's visitors.
I think it's a natural defensive reaction to all of the assholes out there who feel the need to shit all over everything that doesn't perfectly cater to all of their desires. It goes both ways.
It's because most people only look for positive things about things they like, and disregard negative aspects. It's not just video games, it's everything. If you take a basic psychology class you should be able to figure this out. Great answers though, such as "immaturity", it shows the intelligence of this website's visitors.
The humorous thing is, your last sentence is just an intellectual way of insulting the people who you disagree with, which is a tactic that dates all the way back to the playground.
It's because most people only look for positive things about things they like, and disregard negative aspects. It's not just video games, it's everything. If you take a basic psychology class you should be able to figure this out. Great answers though, such as "immaturity", it shows the intelligence of this website's visitors.
The humorous thing is, your last sentence is just an intellectual way of insulting the people who you disagree with, which is a tactic that dates all the way back to the playground.
What exactly is your point? I never said anything about people insulting each other, nor do I care if people do. I said that answers simply put as "immaturity" as I saw in previous pages don't show ANY intelligence whatsoever. They give no explanation, no reasoning, or anything. I don't really see how this was humorous, but okay.
Comments
No matter what in life, the glass is both half empty and half full. Acknowledgement and Focusing are two different things. You can acknowledge one. But ultimately, happiness (or lack thereof) is determined by what you focus on.
People that play the games they like, do acknowledge the negatives. But what they ultimately focus on are the positives. And that is why they are happy. Like someone else stated. Why is it that most - not only acknowledge - but solely focus on the negatives? These people are often not happy...and never will be.
The choice for each person is theirs and theirs alone to make.
Oh, but that's just forum pvp
However, I can recall that when I first started visiting mmorpg.com forums I treated it as I treated some other forums I visited, as places to find helpful info and interesting news about games and where discussions were held in a fairly reasonable manner, online gathering places of likeminded people. Sure, there'd always be the occasional hater or extreme critic, what's new?
These expectations weren't conform with mmorpg.com forums though: the number of persistent onesided negative posters and biased critics and even haters of a game ('game X will fail and I'll be happy if it does' etc) were far more than expected or than were present on other forums.
So yeah, I can understand why new posters or those who don't visit often might be irritated when the threads and debates in them on mmorpg.com are often different than they at first expected or have grown to expect from other forums and sites
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
At the heart of the problem is simple egoism and insecurity. Too many people see any negative statement agaisnt something they like as a personal attack, rather than another person simply stating their own opinion of how they view something.
On the flip side are those who rant on about how much something sucks and refuse to believe that anyone could honestly hold a contrary opion and actually like something they so personaly loath, so that person must be deluded or disingenuous. A behavior I admit I am frequently guilty of exhibiting.
Though honestly who the heck do you think you are Mr OP to have the right to ask what is wrong with all of us when your avatar is from the stunningly annoying "whaaaampyre" series, Twilight?
(yes I am of course just kidding, well kind of.)
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Well for me its very simple, if I am having fun I see no reason to focus on the negatives or the negatives are things I simply do not give a flying *uck about. When people tell me how much better WoW used to be...I just dont give a shit. Im not playing the game 5 years ago, Im playing it now. When people complain about how the hardcore players are getting screwed...why should I care when I am not a hardcore raider for example? Its a problem that does not affect me thua its not a problem.
While i personally can acknowledge negatives about games i play, i see far too often people only focusing on the negative. no matter all the good parts of a game they just want to rip a game apart for having negative parts.
Granted people have been burnt on buying games they don't like, but they have to take part of the blame for not researching properly.
i try to enjoy a game for what it is, the Dev presents us their vision of a game they made and i try it out and decide if its what i like or don't like. i swear people take it so personal if a game isnt designed how they want it, its like they believe the game should have been designed just around what they like lol
i don't see the point in raging if a game is not what i like after i try it out lol.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
depands on what the negatives are
A negative for you dusnt have to be a negative for me
Well, there are several degrees to how much people ignore or overlook the negative aspects of an MMO they enjoy, ranging from the, "I acknowledge there are issues, BUT..." to, "No, there's NOTHING wrong with this game! It's perfect!" The former, of course, being a resonable opinion, and the latter being delusional. But I believe they stem from the same basic reasons:
1. When you play an MMO, you're trying to relieve stress, escape from real life, or just have fun. If you focus on what's wrong with the game you're trying to enjoy, you defeat yourself.
2. People are paying for these games, and no one wants to feel like they're wasting money. They'll justify their spending by either ignoring or downplaying the negatives, or convincing themselves that things will get better later on (though because MMOs are massive timesinks, sometimes the "endgame" IS better than the beginning, so they're right).
3. The negatives don't affect them personally. "I don't give a damn if the crafting sucks, I'm a PvPer and the game has great PvP."
I'm sure there are other reasons that are more complex than just "blind fanbotism," but these are the prominent three.
Very true.
Some people hate instancing. Others like it. To the person that hates it, it's a negative. But it's not to person that likes it.
Not all MMO players have the same preferences. A lot of people overlook that fact.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I think many people acknowledge faults in their beloved games. From experience ...even if one avidly criticizes various aspects of a game...and still recommend and love the game...most haters of said game conveniently ignore everything except the "endorsement " and throw around the over-used "fanboi" moniker.
And that's exactly my point. Too many people make these blanket games that x game has all these issues but are they really issues or is it that the game doesn't fit into their idea of what a particular game should be.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen a particular player claim that there is a problem when there are also a good many players that don't think it is a problem.
Aion = grind, I've seen many people who just complained and complained that Aion was a grind. For me Aion was one of the easiest games to level up in.
Rift = too many rifts and invasions, some people claim this is a huge problem and others (like me ) are fine with it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
People are defensive by nature. I read a thread last night where someone posted about clearly trying to enjoy Rift but simply did it. Sure enough, the posts that follow from defensive fanboys all bash him on a personal level. Completely uncalled for, but because the guy had something negative to say about their game all of a sudden they are living life wrong and a whole slew of other negative presonal attacks ensued.
I agree with you, and it's the kind of stuff you see time and time again on this site.
So many times, "negatives" are based on opinion, and not absolute fact. The same goes for many "positives".
To the OP, can you give us some examples of concrete, unassailable negatives?
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
It's for the same reason we find it hard to critique ourselves. We want to love ourselves for who we are not what our flaws and weaknesses are. We try to focus on the good in us (non-emo, non-depressed always exceptions to the rules!) If we enjoy something we do not want to admit or perhaps even outright ignore its flaws. It's almost like playing a game is a relationship with your significant other though WAY less important. It's hard to point the flaws out at the time if you are totally in love. You miss the glaringly obvious so you can focus on what you enjoy in the releationship the most. It's a flaw of mankind that turns out to be a benefit. Enjoy it while you still absolutely love a game because when you begin to notice its flaws it might just be time to move on. If it doesn't apply to you then it could be you're very observant and able to be completely objective. Some people can do this others can't and you shouldn't force them to be any other way.
Or you know...Opinion...
Which is very related to past experiences. Which I GUESS one MIGHT call education to a certain extent.
You may not enjoy the art style of a game. I might love that style. My education did not cause that. My past experiences did. You might enjoy a shooter game based on one man armies. I might enjoy a shooter based around objective team work.
Now, if you said that a game runs very poorly on any computer (and it did) that would be one thing everyone should agree on.
One must think about what they say when it is an opinion before throwing things out like this.
Eventually people will realize the negatives in their game, and will not be afraid to admit it. A good example of this is LOTRO fans that are expressing there displeasure over the current and upcoming pay to win items in the game, and how turbine said a million times before F2P there would be no P2W but are now adding tons of it on top of what they already added.
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?&postid=5271086#post5271086
join us on seastone (btw no cash shop to run your bank account dry)
http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?83070-Lotro-Players&s=d555bfc9e2f4d22851c5359cb80e5b27
because the pink glasses are evil!
"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence
It depends on what you're talking about when you say, "Bad". Using Rift as an example, some people have the opinion (expressed in these forums) that the game is bad because it has elements of game play that are found in other games. In other words, it's a "clone". Other people find these game elements to be good or enjoyable. Those game elements that exist in other games are neither intrinsically bad or good, they just are. The opinion comes in when you think of them as bad or good.
There are things that are intrinsically bad in mmorpg, like duping exploits, avatars that float above the ground or don't stay attached to their mounts, etc. Allods initial implementation of a cash shop is a good example of something that isn't a game breaking bug or exploit, but is still bad.
When pointing out the flaws of various games (a hobby of many on these forums) people seem to see little difference between their opinions of reality and reality itself.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's a strange mentallity: "My choice is better than your choice; and here's why." The speaker goes on to list the positive aspects of his/her choice, and the negative aspects of your choice.
Maybe a need to justify one's actions. People often need to remind themselves why they feel a certain way about something. Also I think pride has something to do with it.
I never said "only focusing on the negative", so theres really no reason to read any further if your basing your post on the idea that I did.
The point that I was getting at....but failed...is that no matter what the product, no matter the effort, no matter the result, one can always find something that could have been done better. That's just the way we are. We judge and evaluate what other people do.
But...why is it necessary to point out all the flaws....even the minor ones. Or the ones that may be a flaw to me but isn't to you.
That's the thing with MMORPGs. What may be a negative to you might not be an issue to me. Class balance, PvP, PvE, RP, emotes, travel, death, graphics....all these things are opinions that people usually disagree on. They are not flaws or negatives in a game.
Things like bugs...those are negatives and I have yet to see anyone that closes their eyes to that. They may disagree on the severity, but...bugs are bugs.
Ultimately, even things that may be seen as apparent or "intrinsically bad" - like bugs, dupes, memory leaks, etc - come down to an opinion. Not generally an opinion on whether or not they exist, or whether or not they are "bad", but on degree.
That is to say: How bad is bad? How severe is it? How pervasive? How much does it impact each individual, and what are each individual's preferences and tolerances?
An infuriating "game-breaker" to one person might not even rise to the level of an annoyance to another. The player that sees it as a game-breaker often can't understand the opinion of the other, who appears to be "a player not willing to admit the negative" about his or her chosen game, when in fact, they just don't agree on the severity of the problem.
I agree completely with you that some people have an inability to discern fact from their personal opinion. Many have a tendency to believe they speak for everyone.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
It's because most people only look for positive things about things they like, and disregard negative aspects. It's not just video games, it's everything. If you take a basic psychology class you should be able to figure this out. Great answers though, such as "immaturity", it shows the intelligence of this website's visitors.
I think it's a natural defensive reaction to all of the assholes out there who feel the need to shit all over everything that doesn't perfectly cater to all of their desires. It goes both ways.
The humorous thing is, your last sentence is just an intellectual way of insulting the people who you disagree with, which is a tactic that dates all the way back to the playground.
What exactly is your point? I never said anything about people insulting each other, nor do I care if people do. I said that answers simply put as "immaturity" as I saw in previous pages don't show ANY intelligence whatsoever. They give no explanation, no reasoning, or anything. I don't really see how this was humorous, but okay.