We are conditioned our entire lives to take the most efficient path. I never take the scenic route just for the sake of it. The only time I 'smell the flowers' is when I am planting them. When writing programs at work I cut'n'paste every bit of old code I can.
You know what else is human nature? Pointing your finger and (mis)placing blame.
---
A couple years ago I had the idea that our characters should have multiple paths of progression. Seperate paths for Combat, Social, Exploring, and PvP. Sorta like the jobs in Free Realms.
Each category gains advantages and perks as you gain experience. You would gain experience in each category by doing things associated with that category.
If you explore a lot then you gain movement bonuses, mapping skills that show additional details, new mounts, etc.
The social category is the most challenging to quantize. Increasing your friends list, joining and recruiting to a guild, spending time in a group, spending time in taverns. The perks could be guild bonuses, group buffs, emotes, vanity items, etc. The real challenge is creating this category in a way that can't be completed without actually interacting with other players.
The combat and PvP categories are what we are most familiar with so no need to go into details on those.
You'd probably see a lot of people that are high level in combat, medium level in PvP, and low level in exploring and socializing, but having those categories would provide incentives to spend time on it at least.
That's a darned cool idea. You could add something like characters typed in /tells and /team mountin up to promote actual interaction as opposed to the silent grouping that's so prevalent nowadays. Friends lists can easily be populated with random names - unless there's a request system in place, and even that could be gamed. Mind you, I guess /tells and /team could be macro-filed with nonsenso-spam just as easily. A tough one.
The only thing I can think of would back in the golden years of MMOs was Original Everquest,DAoC,and UO these are the gran daddies of MMOs and they had huge player communities. Main stream right now isn't making a solid game it's makeing a game that will generate a lot of hype that can be beaten in 3-6 months so they can announce an expansion that will generate as much hype again and give players the hope that something greater will happen with that expansion so they hold out another 6 months why they wait to release it. They hope to hold the players in these spells for as long as possible. I remember when a 25K player audience was high now everyone is looking for the million player audience and trying to please everyone to hold those high numbers. Sure game companies are in it to make a buck, but for the most part the passion for making a great game is lost amongst the populus atm. If you are looking for a great game stop looking at main stream cookie cutter/theme park games and start looking at smaller companies that have a unique idea.
Oh and a big FU to games I contribute for ruining the Market today as followed:
A couple years ago I had the idea that our characters should have multiple paths of progression. Seperate paths for Combat, Social, Exploring, and PvP. Sorta like the jobs in Free Realms.
Each category gains advantages and perks as you gain experience. You would gain experience in each category by doing things associated with that category.
If you explore a lot then you gain movement bonuses, mapping skills that show additional details, new mounts, etc.
The social category is the most challenging to quantize. Increasing your friends list, joining and recruiting to a guild, spending time in a group, spending time in taverns. The perks could be guild bonuses, group buffs, emotes, vanity items, etc. The real challenge is creating this category in a way that can't be completed without actually interacting with other players.
The combat and PvP categories are what we are most familiar with so no need to go into details on those.
You'd probably see a lot of people that are high level in combat, medium level in PvP, and low level in exploring and socializing, but having those categories would provide incentives to spend time on it at least.
I think that's actually quite a decent idea
The socialising levelling could be directly related to feedback from other players, sort of a positive feedback providing socialising xp - the more you socialise, the more socialising xp you gain. If you dangled some enticing rewards high up in the socialising tree that benefit other areas - for example pvp rewards from a ton of socialising would encourage even the diehard closet dwellers to stop and have a chat ocasionally if implemented properly
A rating system would be a perfect fit. It could be a simple "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" selection and the player could have a popularity rating. Every time you get a thumbs up you get a little social exp. People would totaly kiss ass just to get a thumbs up if the rewards were good. It would also tie into a political system very nicely.
According to Bartles the Socializer is the polar opposite of the Killer (PvPer). It would be cool to put some PvP defensive skills higher up in the social tree.
Now how do we implement this rating system for drivers on the streets in real life?
I think an ideal game offers both giving you the choice to do either and not forcing you to do anything you don't feel like at the moment. I'm currently playing Vanguard again, I can easily sit some where in town and socialize (while I usually have to use region chat), or I can go out and adventure (quest driven or grinding). STO also offers both, by returning to the "social hubs" I'm not forced into any action, but if I want I simply have to go out to the nearest quest or exploration POI and boom I've got action.
Forcing people to do one or the other though is just plain poor business practice.
My problem lies in the lack of tools modern MMO's provide to enable the players to socialise
Back in the days on UO and EQ it was a bit of a novelty to most people to be able to play a game and type and chat to people from around the world at the same time, but nowadays it's a foregone comclusion that an MMO will have this in-built. Where most, if not all modern MMO's fal short is not fully utilising modern advancements in online socialising - we have twitter, facebook, video chat, voice chat - the list goes on, and hardly any MMO's offer these tools to their players, but rather add some half baked text based system, or make voice chat optional rather than fully integrated into the game itself
I mean just imagine a decent MMO with voice chat where you can talk and hear others talk as you walk along the road and as distance increases the voices fade, if you get close and whisper it becomes a private (relatively) chat..wouldn't that be fantastic? The technology is there, just not the implementation
In reality the best socialising cross with gaming nowadays comes through either a dedicated clan based online chat system in an MMO, or some of the newer FPS with built in voice chat options
One social feature that I don't see implemented is membership in multiple guilds. FFXI had the ability to join multiple linkshells and A Tale In the Desert lets you join multiple guilds and have a seperate chat for each.
A feature like that would have solved a lot of grief for me in WoW as I could be part of a serious raiding guild while also mainating the membership in my large casual social guild.
Last I checked, 99% of MMORPGs have chat, public chat, guild chat, ventrilo conversations, and lots of people just chilling in town.
Seems like everything you want exists, if you're willing to engage in those features. And especially if you dig into the forums to find a really like-minded guild (if you don't create one yourself in the first place.)
In RIFT if you keep moving forward at all times, that was a choice. You could've chilled in town or you could've quest/rift/dungeon'd, and you chose the latter. There's a lot of people chilling in that town.
Not easy to get other people to engage in those features. It comes down to this. Game mechanics of most games make players choose between chatting or playing the game. Its pretty much zero sum, while youi're out adventuring there's little time for conversation hence little conversation actually takes place.
Last night I was out and came across a Rift. I started to solo it and eventually 2 people came along and helped me close it. Instead of immediately dropping party they started to kill nearby quest npcs which I also needed so I joined in. During our adventures we ran into an annoying quest where everyone was waiting out the spawn timer. I tried to start up some conversation but only one person responded in any way. (one sentence)
We did pretty well, knocked off 5 or so quests (one member did send ask me in party if I had gotten credit for a particular kill since I died along the way and then the other folks dropped party.
As I'm riding up to the next town I get a private tell from one of the other people thanking me for grouping with them. I was shocked, what used to be a common place occurance now happens so infrequently it took me by surprise. It reminded me of what used to be a staple of these games, random strangers grouping up and having fun together, occasionally forging bonds that lasted longer. Seldom happens anymore, most interaction is through willfull joining of a team (guilds) and seldom from random encounters.
I'm assuming from your many posts that you never experienced this, (or didn't enjoy it), but for some of us we'd prefer a little more time to interact which we're willing to do, unfortunately our fellow gamers are too busy most times.
Eh, I experience social experiences like that all the time, but they're pretty light/trivial.
This thread is much like the patient punching himself in the face and complaining "It hurts when I do this, doctor" to which the doctor replies, "Then stop doing that!"
Gamers are seeking deep socialization in light/trivial social interactions. That's not going to happen.
Instead, join a guild. Seek deep socialization in deep social interactions.
It's not rocket surgery.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by jiveturkey12 Originally posted by ScrimMaltese See all the other threads about Sandboxes. This is one of the key factors people are looking for in a sandbox, whether they specifically say so or not.
But this shouldnt be just a sandbox feature. I dont see why you cant have a linear theme park style game that also has community building elements.
Because linear theme park style games make you feel that any moment you are not OMG RUNNING TOWARDS THE NEXT QUEST OBJECTIVE RUN RUN HURRY EXP EXP!!!!11ONE it's "wasted time" because you are not achieving nothing by hanging around and talking to people. People have zero to minimal effect towards your achievement speed, so why bother?
Sandboxes are built around people. Also, usually in sandbox games people are either your friends, or shoot at you. It's in your best interest to know at least a little about them. And you'll still be progressing somehow even if you don't do anything specific about it (Eve, Perpetuum...), so no worry, time is never lost. On Eve, the right social skills (and i mean the "real life" ones) can bring you among the most powerful people, and you could have actually never fired a shot. That's how sandboxes work.
I dont see why you cant have a linear theme park style game that also has community building elements.
I think the simplest way to achieve this would be to have starter cities that remained as the central hub for that region of the game instead of having a linear series of zones with their own temporary hub.
The starter zone would be quite large with the starter town actually in the zone with say the 11-20 zone to the west, 21-30 to the east, 31-40 to the north and docks to 41-50 zones along the south edge. The starter zone would then contain the new players, crafters, traders plus all the higher levels going to and fro to the bank and whatnot. The main thing most socializers need is a lot of people in one place and if the zone was full of newbies, crafters, traders and people coming back from questing to bank etc then they won't all be in the solo quester trance. Kelethin in EQ is the best example i can think of what i mean.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am actually exhausted from playing games. I am constantly running from enemies or running to another palce to finish something or running to another place to get another thing done. With rifts the feeling of urgency is even worse. Truly gaming is far from relaxing.
Gamers are seeking deep socialization in light/trivial social interactions. That's not going to happen.
Instead, join a guild. Seek deep socialization in deep social interactions.
Ah, but these games used to offer opportunities for deep socialization in light/trivial situations, no reason they can't do so once again.
Guilds are additional opportunities for socialization, no good reason for them to be one of the few that offer it.
The problem here is that I remember this differently so we have a Failure to Agree On Reality situation where we both remember the same scenario differently and can't really convince the other that they remember it wrongly.
For me these situations were much rare than you seem to remember and were just as frequent as they are today.
Would be nice. I remember in UO (at least on my server) the crossroads, near that maze area SW and the Orc Fort NE down the road (PC Orcs were very popular on Catskills) was a very popular area just to hang out for many reasons. 1. PKs would come there, plenty of fights going on. 2 - A lot of housing options were in the are, tons of space for guild cities/neighborhoods, people were creative with what they had.
I'm sure it may of been different on other servers. Of course Britain Bank was always a cluster fuck.
Gamers are seeking deep socialization in light/trivial social interactions. That's not going to happen.
Instead, join a guild. Seek deep socialization in deep social interactions.
Ah, but these games used to offer opportunities for deep socialization in light/trivial situations, no reason they can't do so once again.
Guilds are additional opportunities for socialization, no good reason for them to be one of the few that offer it.
The problem here is that I remember this differently so we have a Failure to Agree On Reality situation where we both remember the same scenario differently and can't really convince the other that they remember it wrongly.
For me these situations were much rare than you seem to remember and were just as frequent as they are today.
Ah, but if I were alone in my observations then perhaps you might convince me in the error of my ways. But many a former DAOC player will attest to my reality, perhaps it was just a different sort of game that I was fortunate enough to play. But then again, was not the only example, same thing was true of Lineage 1/Lineage 2. Wasn't until we got to the "quest grinder" era that things began to change drastically.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you want chat, you need a game with danger and downtime.
The "danger" compels folks to band (group) together; players need one another.
The "downtime" gives them time to talk and get to know one another.
Early MMO's had this. Later MMO's move too fast.
Danger is fine, but many people may not enjoy as much as others especially if its caused by PvP.
Downtime is a thing of the past. The only downtime you may find in successful MMOG's anymore is the login queue. The only reason it worked in the past was because there was less competition in the MMOG market. Actually there was competition and that is why I played AC instead of EQ. I don't think anyone, when given a choice and all other things being equal, would choose the slow game with downtime over the fast game with no downtime.
And there is one more thing that gets people chatting... Challenge. That is why WoW guilds work.
Downtime is a thing of the past. The only downtime you may find in successful MMOG's anymore is the login queue. The only reason it worked in the past was because there was less competition in the MMOG market. Actually there was competition and that is why I played AC instead of EQ. I don't think anyone, when given a choice and all other things being equal, would choose the slow game with downtime over the fast game with no downtime.
Personally, I also anythign I can alt-tab to to be competition to Downtime. in my early MMORPG days my computer could not handle alt-tabbing out of a game so during downtime I stuck around and might engage in some chatter with other people in the area or trade chat. These days I don't even have to alt-tab but simply shift my attention to my second monitor where I can spend any downtime posting on this site or maybe watching a TV episode I missed last night.
Downtime is a thing of the past. The only downtime you may find in successful MMOG's anymore is the login queue. The only reason it worked in the past was because there was less competition in the MMOG market. Actually there was competition and that is why I played AC instead of EQ. I don't think anyone, when given a choice and all other things being equal, would choose the slow game with downtime over the fast game with no downtime.
Personally, I also anythign I can alt-tab to to be competition to Downtime. in my early MMORPG days my computer could not handle alt-tabbing out of a game so during downtime I stuck around and might engage in some chatter with other people in the area or trade chat. These days I don't even have to alt-tab but simply shift my attention to my second monitor where I can spend any downtime posting on this site or maybe watching a TV episode I missed last night.
That is a good point and I might be mistaken about downtime. I was satisfied watching TV, surfing the net, and listening to music while doing things in EVE. Also, all these facebook games and browser games always have production timers that last hours and even days and they remain compelling despite the downtime.
I guess I am picturing the 5 minutes staring at a spellbook meditating in EQ hoping you don't get attacked while paying attention to the group chat waiting for the "Incoming" from the puller. Extremely slow health regen while out of combat is just as bad. Waiting 15 minutes at the dock for a 15 minute boat ride isn't going to work either. I'd totaly miss the boat while checking the MMORPG.com forums.
As long as there are a few choices of fun things to do during downtime it could work, but even then people may not choose to chit chat during their downtime since there are other options.
If you want chat, you need a game with danger and downtime.
The "danger" compels folks to band (group) together; players need one another.
The "downtime" gives them time to talk and get to know one another.
Early MMO's had this. Later MMO's move too fast.
Danger is fine, but many people may not enjoy as much as others especially if its caused by PvP.
Downtime is a thing of the past. The only downtime you may find in successful MMOG's anymore is the login queue. The only reason it worked in the past was because there was less competition in the MMOG market. Actually there was competition and that is why I played AC instead of EQ. I don't think anyone, when given a choice and all other things being equal, would choose the slow game with downtime over the fast game with no downtime.
And there is one more thing that gets people chatting... Challenge. That is why WoW guilds work.
Actually, I liked ReallyNow10's decription of the situaiton, short and yet accurate at the same time.
However you are corerct, the target audience for MMORPG's feel as you do, there's limited tolerance for downtime and apparently they prefer the frantic pace of the modern games.
But I will disagree with you on one thing, all things being equal I most certainly would chose a slower game over a fast game with no downtime. I think there's a few more like minded folks in this regard but we aren't a large enough niche to justify building a MMO for.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you want chat, you need a game with danger and downtime.
The "danger" compels folks to band (group) together; players need one another.
The "downtime" gives them time to talk and get to know one another.
Early MMO's had this. Later MMO's move too fast.
Danger is fine, but many people may not enjoy as much as others especially if its caused by PvP.
Downtime is a thing of the past. The only downtime you may find in successful MMOG's anymore is the login queue. The only reason it worked in the past was because there was less competition in the MMOG market. Actually there was competition and that is why I played AC instead of EQ. I don't think anyone, when given a choice and all other things being equal, would choose the slow game with downtime over the fast game with no downtime.
And there is one more thing that gets people chatting... Challenge. That is why WoW guilds work.
Actually, I liked ReallyNow10's decription of the situaiton, short and yet accurate at the same time.
However you are corerct, the target audience for MMORPG's feel as you do, there's limited tolerance for downtime and apparently they prefer the frantic pace of the modern games.
But I will disagree with you on one thing, all things being equal I most certainly would chose a slower game over a fast game with no downtime. I think there's a few more like minded folks in this regard but we aren't a large enough niche to justify building a MMO for.
I would choose a (new) game with downtime over a more quickly paced game.
I want danger on the roads, less instances, some travel time that has to be done in the game world, etc.
This is not to say I can't have fun in the newer games but I prefer more "game worlds" than "games".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Aha! Now I remember! Its been 10 years so I nearly forgot. Damn MMOG's and their archaic chat mechanics. They never improved. Its still just a big scrolly list of spamy nonsense. Transitioning from UO to EQ was terrible because of this and every MMOG since then has been just as terrible.
Two words: ICQ-style chat
Its just like MSN messenger, Trillian, and all those other chat apps (for you young-uns that never used ICQ). It queue's up tells you have received so you can respond at your leisure without missing anything. You know immediately who sent you a message, but doesn't require you to read it until you get a chance. Its just a much more organized way to communicate.
Even in WoW and Rift I swear 50% of all tells must be missed because they are lost in the chat spam. It just doesn't make sense in a MMOG where you may be occupied at times and miss tells. That never happened in UO because everyone used ICQ (or similar) since the in-game chat was local only. Even setting up tabs for tells in modern MMOG's is no substitute because the sender still can't be sure that you received it (and most people are too lazy to create that tab or to check it often enough).
It would be so easy to implement, but every new MMOG's uses the same terrible archaic wall-o-text spammy chat box. There is nothing wrong with that for general chat, but it doesn't make sense for friends and tells.
I remember back in the EQ beta I practically begged the developers to implement this, but it fell on deaf ears. Had they listened I would bet my right eyelid that it would be standard in all MMOG's right now.
In short: The games advanced, but the chat features stayed the same.
er You do realize in most of these games you can create a new chat tab and have it show only whispers or whatever right?
Did you even read the whole post? I mentioned this, but I'll reiterate because people are lazy. 75% of the people I know don't create it. 50% of the people who do create it still miss tells. There is no way to confirm reception. Despite having similar functionality, its still inferior to the more advanced chat applications.
er You do realize in most of these games you can create a new chat tab and have it show only whispers or whatever right?
Did you even read the whole post? I mentioned this, but I'll reiterate because people are lazy. 75% of the people I know don't create it. 50% of the people who do create it still miss tells. There is no way to confirm reception. Despite having similar functionality, its still inferior to the more advanced chat applications.
Sorry, i just never had any issues with chat when i set it up for myself.
I still vote Eve as most awesome chat room.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief. Join me on TwitchFacebook Twitter
er You do realize in most of these games you can create a new chat tab and have it show only whispers or whatever right?
Did you even read the whole post? I mentioned this, but I'll reiterate because people are lazy. 75% of the people I know don't create it. 50% of the people who do create it still miss tells. There is no way to confirm reception. Despite having similar functionality, its still inferior to the more advanced chat applications.
Sorry, i just never had any issues with chat when i set it up for myself.
I still vote Eve as most awesome chat room.
Yup, Eve is the only one that has something similar to what I am describing. It makes good use of private chat channels. Its still not quite as slick as a dedicated chat application that would combine the functions of a mail system and chat into one while working seamlessly when players are offline or online.
Going from depending on ICQ in UO to a IRC-style chat in EQ was a major downgrade. Of course, I was the leader of a 80+ member guild at the time so managing contacts was kind of a big deal. Nowadays with just a few close friends its not such a big deal since we are all on Vent together.
Comments
That's a darned cool idea. You could add something like characters typed in /tells and /team mountin up to promote actual interaction as opposed to the silent grouping that's so prevalent nowadays. Friends lists can easily be populated with random names - unless there's a request system in place, and even that could be gamed. Mind you, I guess /tells and /team could be macro-filed with nonsenso-spam just as easily. A tough one.
The only thing I can think of would back in the golden years of MMOs was Original Everquest,DAoC,and UO these are the gran daddies of MMOs and they had huge player communities. Main stream right now isn't making a solid game it's makeing a game that will generate a lot of hype that can be beaten in 3-6 months so they can announce an expansion that will generate as much hype again and give players the hope that something greater will happen with that expansion so they hold out another 6 months why they wait to release it. They hope to hold the players in these spells for as long as possible. I remember when a 25K player audience was high now everyone is looking for the million player audience and trying to please everyone to hold those high numbers. Sure game companies are in it to make a buck, but for the most part the passion for making a great game is lost amongst the populus atm. If you are looking for a great game stop looking at main stream cookie cutter/theme park games and start looking at smaller companies that have a unique idea.
Oh and a big FU to games I contribute for ruining the Market today as followed:
WoW
AoC
RIFT
AION
(And soon to be SWOTR)
*steps off soap box
A rating system would be a perfect fit. It could be a simple "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" selection and the player could have a popularity rating. Every time you get a thumbs up you get a little social exp. People would totaly kiss ass just to get a thumbs up if the rewards were good. It would also tie into a political system very nicely.
According to Bartles the Socializer is the polar opposite of the Killer (PvPer). It would be cool to put some PvP defensive skills higher up in the social tree.
Now how do we implement this rating system for drivers on the streets in real life?
I think an ideal game offers both giving you the choice to do either and not forcing you to do anything you don't feel like at the moment. I'm currently playing Vanguard again, I can easily sit some where in town and socialize (while I usually have to use region chat), or I can go out and adventure (quest driven or grinding). STO also offers both, by returning to the "social hubs" I'm not forced into any action, but if I want I simply have to go out to the nearest quest or exploration POI and boom I've got action.
Forcing people to do one or the other though is just plain poor business practice.
One social feature that I don't see implemented is membership in multiple guilds. FFXI had the ability to join multiple linkshells and A Tale In the Desert lets you join multiple guilds and have a seperate chat for each.
A feature like that would have solved a lot of grief for me in WoW as I could be part of a serious raiding guild while also mainating the membership in my large casual social guild.
Eh, I experience social experiences like that all the time, but they're pretty light/trivial.
This thread is much like the patient punching himself in the face and complaining "It hurts when I do this, doctor" to which the doctor replies, "Then stop doing that!"
Gamers are seeking deep socialization in light/trivial social interactions. That's not going to happen.
Instead, join a guild. Seek deep socialization in deep social interactions.
It's not rocket surgery.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Because linear theme park style games make you feel that any moment you are not OMG RUNNING TOWARDS THE NEXT QUEST OBJECTIVE RUN RUN HURRY EXP EXP!!!!11ONE it's "wasted time" because you are not achieving nothing by hanging around and talking to people. People have zero to minimal effect towards your achievement speed, so why bother?
Sandboxes are built around people. Also, usually in sandbox games people are either your friends, or shoot at you. It's in your best interest to know at least a little about them. And you'll still be progressing somehow even if you don't do anything specific about it (Eve, Perpetuum...), so no worry, time is never lost. On Eve, the right social skills (and i mean the "real life" ones) can bring you among the most powerful people, and you could have actually never fired a shot. That's how sandboxes work.
I dont see why you cant have a linear theme park style game that also has community building elements.
I think the simplest way to achieve this would be to have starter cities that remained as the central hub for that region of the game instead of having a linear series of zones with their own temporary hub.
The starter zone would be quite large with the starter town actually in the zone with say the 11-20 zone to the west, 21-30 to the east, 31-40 to the north and docks to 41-50 zones along the south edge. The starter zone would then contain the new players, crafters, traders plus all the higher levels going to and fro to the bank and whatnot. The main thing most socializers need is a lot of people in one place and if the zone was full of newbies, crafters, traders and people coming back from questing to bank etc then they won't all be in the solo quester trance. Kelethin in EQ is the best example i can think of what i mean.
Ah, but these games used to offer opportunities for deep socialization in light/trivial situations, no reason they can't do so once again.
Guilds are additional opportunities for socialization, no good reason for them to be one of the few that offer it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am actually exhausted from playing games. I am constantly running from enemies or running to another palce to finish something or running to another place to get another thing done. With rifts the feeling of urgency is even worse. Truly gaming is far from relaxing.
The problem here is that I remember this differently so we have a Failure to Agree On Reality situation where we both remember the same scenario differently and can't really convince the other that they remember it wrongly.
For me these situations were much rare than you seem to remember and were just as frequent as they are today.
Would be nice. I remember in UO (at least on my server) the crossroads, near that maze area SW and the Orc Fort NE down the road (PC Orcs were very popular on Catskills) was a very popular area just to hang out for many reasons. 1. PKs would come there, plenty of fights going on. 2 - A lot of housing options were in the are, tons of space for guild cities/neighborhoods, people were creative with what they had.
I'm sure it may of been different on other servers. Of course Britain Bank was always a cluster fuck.
Ah, but if I were alone in my observations then perhaps you might convince me in the error of my ways. But many a former DAOC player will attest to my reality, perhaps it was just a different sort of game that I was fortunate enough to play. But then again, was not the only example, same thing was true of Lineage 1/Lineage 2. Wasn't until we got to the "quest grinder" era that things began to change drastically.
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Danger is fine, but many people may not enjoy as much as others especially if its caused by PvP.
Downtime is a thing of the past. The only downtime you may find in successful MMOG's anymore is the login queue. The only reason it worked in the past was because there was less competition in the MMOG market. Actually there was competition and that is why I played AC instead of EQ. I don't think anyone, when given a choice and all other things being equal, would choose the slow game with downtime over the fast game with no downtime.
And there is one more thing that gets people chatting... Challenge. That is why WoW guilds work.
Personally, I also anythign I can alt-tab to to be competition to Downtime. in my early MMORPG days my computer could not handle alt-tabbing out of a game so during downtime I stuck around and might engage in some chatter with other people in the area or trade chat. These days I don't even have to alt-tab but simply shift my attention to my second monitor where I can spend any downtime posting on this site or maybe watching a TV episode I missed last night.
That is a good point and I might be mistaken about downtime. I was satisfied watching TV, surfing the net, and listening to music while doing things in EVE. Also, all these facebook games and browser games always have production timers that last hours and even days and they remain compelling despite the downtime.
I guess I am picturing the 5 minutes staring at a spellbook meditating in EQ hoping you don't get attacked while paying attention to the group chat waiting for the "Incoming" from the puller. Extremely slow health regen while out of combat is just as bad. Waiting 15 minutes at the dock for a 15 minute boat ride isn't going to work either. I'd totaly miss the boat while checking the MMORPG.com forums.
As long as there are a few choices of fun things to do during downtime it could work, but even then people may not choose to chit chat during their downtime since there are other options.
Eve is the most glorified chat room ive ever seen.
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Actually, I liked ReallyNow10's decription of the situaiton, short and yet accurate at the same time.
However you are corerct, the target audience for MMORPG's feel as you do, there's limited tolerance for downtime and apparently they prefer the frantic pace of the modern games.
But I will disagree with you on one thing, all things being equal I most certainly would chose a slower game over a fast game with no downtime. I think there's a few more like minded folks in this regard but we aren't a large enough niche to justify building a MMO for.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would choose a (new) game with downtime over a more quickly paced game.
I want danger on the roads, less instances, some travel time that has to be done in the game world, etc.
This is not to say I can't have fun in the newer games but I prefer more "game worlds" than "games".
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Aha! Now I remember! Its been 10 years so I nearly forgot. Damn MMOG's and their archaic chat mechanics. They never improved. Its still just a big scrolly list of spamy nonsense. Transitioning from UO to EQ was terrible because of this and every MMOG since then has been just as terrible.
Two words: ICQ-style chat
Its just like MSN messenger, Trillian, and all those other chat apps (for you young-uns that never used ICQ). It queue's up tells you have received so you can respond at your leisure without missing anything. You know immediately who sent you a message, but doesn't require you to read it until you get a chance. Its just a much more organized way to communicate.
Even in WoW and Rift I swear 50% of all tells must be missed because they are lost in the chat spam. It just doesn't make sense in a MMOG where you may be occupied at times and miss tells. That never happened in UO because everyone used ICQ (or similar) since the in-game chat was local only. Even setting up tabs for tells in modern MMOG's is no substitute because the sender still can't be sure that you received it (and most people are too lazy to create that tab or to check it often enough).
It would be so easy to implement, but every new MMOG's uses the same terrible archaic wall-o-text spammy chat box. There is nothing wrong with that for general chat, but it doesn't make sense for friends and tells.
I remember back in the EQ beta I practically begged the developers to implement this, but it fell on deaf ears. Had they listened I would bet my right eyelid that it would be standard in all MMOG's right now.
In short: The games advanced, but the chat features stayed the same.
er You do realize in most of these games you can create a new chat tab and have it show only whispers or whatever right?
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Did you even read the whole post? I mentioned this, but I'll reiterate because people are lazy. 75% of the people I know don't create it. 50% of the people who do create it still miss tells. There is no way to confirm reception. Despite having similar functionality, its still inferior to the more advanced chat applications.
If you are looking for a glorified chat room try Xsyon.
Sorry, i just never had any issues with chat when i set it up for myself.
I still vote Eve as most awesome chat room.
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Yup, Eve is the only one that has something similar to what I am describing. It makes good use of private chat channels. Its still not quite as slick as a dedicated chat application that would combine the functions of a mail system and chat into one while working seamlessly when players are offline or online.
Going from depending on ICQ in UO to a IRC-style chat in EQ was a major downgrade. Of course, I was the leader of a 80+ member guild at the time so managing contacts was kind of a big deal. Nowadays with just a few close friends its not such a big deal since we are all on Vent together.