Before you could /xpoff people used to suicide to lose xp to stay in Thid (dark age of camelot) or maybe Molv. Why? Because quite often the level 50 realm RvR sucked. So I guess it depends on how you look at it and what system you are talking about exactly.
I played a PvP server in WoW and hardly ever got attacked. Well let me clarify that by saying once I was the same level as everyone else. Outside of bg's my PvP consisted of someone being on a node I wanted to harvest.
Battlegrounds don't destroy pvp they give people other options. Its the implementation of battle grounds that destroys pvp, its the way the games are designed that destroys pvp etc etc
I agree with one of the first posts I read. Ultima Online had the absolute best PvP I ever saw. Six sets or so of gear in my bank to easily restock "just in case". The fact that my crafted gear was going to hold up to pretty much anything. You needed to know how to play... numbers would not overcome not knowing the basic game systems (counters for para etc)
Then again "core game design" has pretty much destroyed modern MMO's pvp or not...
3) Therefore Instances are not consistent with MMOs (neither battlegrounds nor Instanced Raids)
Q.E.D.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
BGs have their place they didn't ruin anything. BGs remember were made so that PvP could be engagning, fun and balanced. Most importantly though, those who sought it out could PvP, you didn't have to waste your time looking for a match, that was likely to be unbalanced on one side. It fosters up ccompetetion and challenge among the players, which I think for those who seek it is a total 100% plus to it.
The problem isn't BGs its the fact that nobody is wanting to offer something else besides the BG experience. There are no provisions for other methods of PvP, thats not the fault of BGs, but rather the ignoring of the developers.
Balancing PvE and PvP isn't impossible either, people keep saying it is. It is completely possible to have that and variation in classes, again, again and again. Most devs of the popular games, only focus on doing what works, innovation has taken a back seat.
We all talk about the "good ol' days" of gaming, that is because publishers and game companies were actually willing to make and fund innovative ideas, nowadays, it seems the entire industry only likes to do the one thing that works over and over. So everybody just providing some replica of the BG concept, the basic BG, but never going off on another route with it or trying something new just limits the player's experience, which is what could give it that feeling of it "ruining" something and it didn't.
Like what people have been saying about rewards. Again doing what works, its not necessarily the most fun either, we as gamers should be less concerned about our virtual rewards (loot) and more about experiences.
I played Asheron's Call, it was pretty sandbox of a game and very fun pvp, there was no BGs or instance PvP. It was all open world, but that doesn't mean open world PvP would work as well in say WoW or Rift. They are quite different. You have skill based game like AC vs Number based like WoW and Rift. A level 70 or 80 really doesn't stand a chance against a level 85 in WoW, whereas in Asheron's Call I remember a level 70 being able to obliterate a level 115 character.
Hence all the variables to consider, scalings, numbers, gear rewards, gameplay system, social system and so on.
Just think of this, support innovative games, please, even if they aren't the WoW of games, have eveything working and handed to you. Support the games that tell good stories and developers who are trying new things, even if they don't work solid. Your monetary support is what gets that idea out as a successful one and you will see more of it.
BGs didn't ruin it, the devs just refuse to cater to the open world aspect as much as they should, put pressure on them to do such if it matters, be heard. BGs can coincide with open world play, the open world play just needs to be there first.
Details can always change it's the idea that counts.
Games that measure a player's strength in gear are not made for Open World PVP, if any PVP at all.
So this argument is pretty pointless anyway.
I like that statement, I mostly I agree with that concept. Balance a game too much about what "gear" one has acquired and really its just limited to just that, farming for more of the gear becauses its the only way to go forward.
I hate to say this but from Playing WoW it has just got worse, that and many other games, that need for senority rules, or more time = better advantage kind of ruins to challenge seeking and skill improving aspect of the game. All the players are just pushed to only care about the loots as the end all of it.
Only a few of the whole playerbase are really concerned about being pro PvPers (like for arenas), or earning their way to top leaderboards and such, regardless of the gear and all.
Details can always change it's the idea that counts.
Yes, instanced PVP battlegrounds destroy world PVP.
Just look at rift, zero world PVP, all mindless warfront grinds. So now dev's have found a way of turning PVP into nothing but a meaningless, lifeless grind.
Comments
Before you could /xpoff people used to suicide to lose xp to stay in Thid (dark age of camelot) or maybe Molv. Why? Because quite often the level 50 realm RvR sucked. So I guess it depends on how you look at it and what system you are talking about exactly.
I played a PvP server in WoW and hardly ever got attacked. Well let me clarify that by saying once I was the same level as everyone else. Outside of bg's my PvP consisted of someone being on a node I wanted to harvest.
Battlegrounds don't destroy pvp they give people other options. Its the implementation of battle grounds that destroys pvp, its the way the games are designed that destroys pvp etc etc
I agree with one of the first posts I read. Ultima Online had the absolute best PvP I ever saw. Six sets or so of gear in my bank to easily restock "just in case". The fact that my crafted gear was going to hold up to pretty much anything. You needed to know how to play... numbers would not overcome not knowing the basic game systems (counters for para etc)
Then again "core game design" has pretty much destroyed modern MMO's pvp or not...
1) MMO = "Massive" Multiplayer Online
2) Instances are not massive
3) Therefore Instances are not consistent with MMOs (neither battlegrounds nor Instanced Raids)
Q.E.D.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
BGs have their place they didn't ruin anything. BGs remember were made so that PvP could be engagning, fun and balanced. Most importantly though, those who sought it out could PvP, you didn't have to waste your time looking for a match, that was likely to be unbalanced on one side. It fosters up ccompetetion and challenge among the players, which I think for those who seek it is a total 100% plus to it.
The problem isn't BGs its the fact that nobody is wanting to offer something else besides the BG experience. There are no provisions for other methods of PvP, thats not the fault of BGs, but rather the ignoring of the developers.
Balancing PvE and PvP isn't impossible either, people keep saying it is. It is completely possible to have that and variation in classes, again, again and again. Most devs of the popular games, only focus on doing what works, innovation has taken a back seat.
We all talk about the "good ol' days" of gaming, that is because publishers and game companies were actually willing to make and fund innovative ideas, nowadays, it seems the entire industry only likes to do the one thing that works over and over. So everybody just providing some replica of the BG concept, the basic BG, but never going off on another route with it or trying something new just limits the player's experience, which is what could give it that feeling of it "ruining" something and it didn't.
Like what people have been saying about rewards. Again doing what works, its not necessarily the most fun either, we as gamers should be less concerned about our virtual rewards (loot) and more about experiences.
I played Asheron's Call, it was pretty sandbox of a game and very fun pvp, there was no BGs or instance PvP. It was all open world, but that doesn't mean open world PvP would work as well in say WoW or Rift. They are quite different. You have skill based game like AC vs Number based like WoW and Rift. A level 70 or 80 really doesn't stand a chance against a level 85 in WoW, whereas in Asheron's Call I remember a level 70 being able to obliterate a level 115 character.
Hence all the variables to consider, scalings, numbers, gear rewards, gameplay system, social system and so on.
Just think of this, support innovative games, please, even if they aren't the WoW of games, have eveything working and handed to you. Support the games that tell good stories and developers who are trying new things, even if they don't work solid. Your monetary support is what gets that idea out as a successful one and you will see more of it.
BGs didn't ruin it, the devs just refuse to cater to the open world aspect as much as they should, put pressure on them to do such if it matters, be heard. BGs can coincide with open world play, the open world play just needs to be there first.
Details can always change it's the idea that counts.
I like that statement, I mostly I agree with that concept. Balance a game too much about what "gear" one has acquired and really its just limited to just that, farming for more of the gear becauses its the only way to go forward.
I hate to say this but from Playing WoW it has just got worse, that and many other games, that need for senority rules, or more time = better advantage kind of ruins to challenge seeking and skill improving aspect of the game. All the players are just pushed to only care about the loots as the end all of it.
Only a few of the whole playerbase are really concerned about being pro PvPers (like for arenas), or earning their way to top leaderboards and such, regardless of the gear and all.
Details can always change it's the idea that counts.
Yes, instanced PVP battlegrounds destroy world PVP.
Just look at rift, zero world PVP, all mindless warfront grinds. So now dev's have found a way of turning PVP into nothing but a meaningless, lifeless grind.
Lame as.