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One thing I would suggest is a slight change or a new standard to the rating system.
MMOs tend to have key features such as crafting, housing, guilds, chat, auction house, quests, raids, resources, combat, story, economy, UI, etc. Maybe rate each of those SYSTEMS on a 1-10 scale and average out the score?! Missing 'norms' would result in a 0, but to counter those, maybe toss in a new category like "innovation" and count each as double for being a NEW idea vs missing or a 'standard'.
As I mentioned earlier, I think part of the problem with the review is that Bill is only judging it on how he feels about it AS IT IS, not on how it stacks up against the likes of RIFT or other MMOs. And tbh, the 8/10 isn't terribly unfair if you want a fast action multiplayer action game (MAG)...but it's failure to deliver so many MMO norms is where the review gets wonky.
We, as MMO players, have an idea of what we feel MMOs should offer and what we want in our MMO games. IMO, DCUO is little more than a Superhero Call of Duty. I could rank up and improve my toon in COD, even create guilds...does that make it an MMO? No. But it is FUN! 8-9/10 fun.
To be fair, MMOs have changed a lot and a ton have been released since this site began. Perhaps it's time to examine and adjust the review criteria?!
Lol any REAL gamer would of stayed clear of this game...
WINNING !!
I think the reall issue is that we need to really think about what every massive multiplayer online game is, then lists them out as they are. Yes, DCU is a mmorpg, but maybe that isn't enough anymore. By definition eve is an mmorgp, so is WoW, ToR, and even the short lived fury. But should they all be the same, is it maybe time we went, okay what is it really?
DCU to me is a MMOARPG, sounds like more pig, but I digress. It is an action rpg that is massive, multiplayer, and online. Why, because of ragnavens rule of thumb. Does it have a block button, if yes put it in action. Does it have spikey haired tweens in bright clothing and bad voice overs, then it's a jrpg. etc. Maybe we should take that idea and move forward with it, developers like the ones on DCU wanted to make an action based mmo, thats what they thought everyone wanted. It's what they made, the only problem is, that they cut a lot of what makes an mmo from it to increase the action.
If this was just a DC super hero game that you could log into multiplayer when you felt like it, and level up in CoD style pvp it might have more people in there. For a mmo however, you have a lot of people hitting the cap level in the free month then going, cancel sub, what else is coming out this year?
I don't really think there has to be a new rating system.
The only issue in this thread is there are people who don't like SOE or any game SOE has their name on. Then the thread changed to people crapping on the fact the game was given an 8 out of 10. While the OP was simply saying people didn't talk in channels or in groups...
I only even found mmorpg.com because at the time there was a forum full of people upset over the CU/NGE in Star Wars Galaxies. So I was one person who came here to crap on SOE and what they did to SWG. Somehow I've managed to not let this fact color my opinion on other titles.
That said DCUO is one of the better games to come out in recent years, in my opinion. However, its not a game that will be able to keep my long term. Then again there hasn't been any game that has kept me long term in quite a few years...
Oh and to the OP most games I play people in pug's don't talk. Guild groups may likely be on vent. If you are talking about channels like "1-9" as being people talking. Personally in any MMO I play "1-9" is the first channel I turn off...
Ooi is there a reivew site or system anyone can point at that mysteriously satisfies this 'objective truth score'.
A game is a form of entertainment as far as I am aware its value is mostly due to the emotional response it inspires in an individual and as such incapable of a universal quatitative assesment.
There is a tremendous conceit in that some people here are not only denying the validity of anther person's honest and open stated opinion but they go on to promote their own subjective assesment as a universal truth even inventing and fabricating facts and figures to support it.
Ultimately what influence or proof does success offer... is WoW the greatest game of any kind ever created...by revenue terms or number of boxes shifted it probably has the success factor behind it - but what does it really mean.
In the 90's the Spice girls rose from nothing , their first album topped the charts and despite listening to that many folks ensured that the next 2 rose ever higher....does that qualify them as the greatest musical artists of that time....even folks who were fans at the time would question the valididty of such a statement.
Is Avatar the Greatest film of all time, was It Tiatanic before that or Gone with the Wind Before that..... some will answer yes to these but the vast majority will have a differing view. Bladerunner is an applauded film, but it was conversely a box office failure in real terms on release, only its long term legacy saw it given a second chance.
Are soap operas with their legions of regular viewers the greatest form of tv entertainment? You watched the last episode, are you watching the next because of its awesome quality or have they instead duped you with something if you were honest you realise is just a cheap mechanic or hook?
At the ends of the day we can agree or disagree on any or all of these suggestions, we can offer our opinion but none of us are absolute and omniscient in making that opnion truth. Success and quality are simply not automatically compatible and often challenging potential success is the only way to forge genuine progress. Pandering to base desires is actually the easier route to success, does that mean such an attitude is one to encourage, that is really the path to stagnation surely?
You pays your money and your takes your chances, one mans meat is another mans poison.....a simple philosophy that people should not assume doesn't apply to them.
Has this site ever done a review and then received a majority of possitive feedback or agreement with that review? Cause I can't recall ever seeing that happen.
Seriously man. The forums here become nothing but a nesting ground for people to come and bash every MMO that gets released. Most of the opinions of the posters here have zero weight as most of them will only say possitive things about the single game they play, or none at all.
Hell, most positive threads on these forums barely get responces, but a negative one can go on for pages upon pages. Most of the people here don't really care about the games you guys write about, they want attention, and they get more attention by being as negative as possible. Even your editor in cheif pointed out back at the launch of Darkfall that the reason you guys did so many articles on the game was because it generated a lot of attention, even if that attention was negative.
I'm in my mid 30's, been playing video games since I was able to handle a joystick. when I discovered MMO's they became pretty much the only sort of video game I play. I've lost count of the number of MMO's I've played. WoW was the last MMO I played for several years. Before WoW it was Lineage 2 and CoH that held my attention for multiple years. DCUO is the first MMO to release in many years that actually pulled me and has continued to provide me with fun on a daily basis.
6 months ago I became sick, and I'm unable to work, let alone walk around much anymore. I spend most of my day spit between playing DCUO, watching movies, and drawing and painting (when I can.) Granted the majority of that time is spent playing DCUO.
There's a dif. between having an opinion and treating an opinion as if it's the ony valid one. Most of the people here act as the later. You're opinions aren't the only one's that matter; they sure aren't the only valid ones. I read a lot of posts here from a lot of people that really need to get control of their egos.
DCUO in my opinion is more then deserving of an 8.
It's a superhero game, it doesn't need crafting.
It's not meant to appeal to the hardcore playerbase, even though there are those of us that are able to sink entire days into the game and enjoy it.
It's the kind of MMO that is perfect for people that like to create multiple alts, AND experience end game with those alts. You can't say that with most MMO's on the market.
It's got some bugs. SOME bugs, but anyone saying that it's got lots, or it's broken, is simply lying. Far fewer bugs then many other just released MMO's.
Yes, there are PvP glitches, just like there are PvP glitches in just about every MMO I've played to date. In fact there's glitching in just about ever online game, and ofline to boot. Eve has had to deal with glitches, WoW, Dark age of Camelot, City of Heroes, Call of duty, Battlefield, etc. etc. etc.
Sorry for the blatant misspellings. Hand hurts to much now to worry about editing.
I was suggesting it, not because I dislike SOE, but because I believe the review is misleading with DCUO's lack of so many 'normal' MMO features. It's great you like DCUO...but obviously it's lacking even for YOU since you won't be sticking around long term.
Companies don't drop $50 million and 5-years on a 3-month shooter. This game NEEDED longevity to justify it's cost.
But the presumption is that all mmo's need the same features.... some of those features you might think are 'essential' are actively ones I feel compromise and undermine the ip/theme. DCUO says what it is on the tin and imho lives upto that, not all MMORPGS should be the same (that would be in no ones best interest) and its what distinguishes them that ultimately is the most significant aspect of any review.
As to cost, few solo player games offer the level of content and fun of DCUO for the same outlay. What is the point of a review that take you beyond that or tries to justify it value beyond that first month...you will have experienced far more yourself to make the descision to fund the next sub...that is where and why people have left now, not because the game is good or bad, but on their assesment of whether it justifies another month. Even that isn't entirely fair in DCUO as the design has made the game accessible in a manner few mmo's can claim, in DCUO the grind is optional but some traditional mmo players even now can't see or deal with that level of empowerment - like some mascohistic addict they'd rather be overtly gimped and forced down a painful levelling path for superficial reward than be given the choice to motivate or pace themselves. There is a degree of not seeing the wood for the tree's imo....but only imo of course ^^
I really don't doubt that the review is your honest opinion. But if I may be so bold, I have two thoughts to add.
a) Is it realistic to make MMORPG reviews a few days after launch? I know, it's business, stiff competition, everyone does it. But still, it's the same I wrote Amazon several times: allowing reviews often even BEFORE the game is out, is just... questionable. From a single player reviewer I expect that he has finished the game entirely. And from a MMO review I would think it is more realistic, when the reviewer has player 2-3 months. Though I know, in the game business, no one could really do that. But maybe a fully equal 2nd review 3 months later is something we all would benefit from.
b) Again, while I do believe your reviews are what you really feel about the game - and that is 100% ok! - what I see with games in the last years is this: more and more MY own view and the average rating of games is like WORLDS APART. Now with 20 professional reviews from the big sites, you'd expect at least one or two should have an opinion like me. But it's not the case. See Dragon Age 2. It was praised EVERYWHERE, when a hole lot of gamers were VERY critical. I don't want to start conspiracy theories, but for me personally it has reached the point where reviews are entirely useless for me.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
So, to you, MMOs are throw away products quite similar to single player games, right?! Low grind, quick leveling (which I'm OK with) but nothing that needs to keep players beyond 30 days unless they want to stay. I COMPLETELY disagree with that.
IMO, an MMO's PRIMARY goal should be retention and "stuff" BEYOND 30 days (no, not just raids or duo's). Again, screw the grind. I dislike grinding as much as anyone else - but developing my characters skills and finding him a niche in that virtual world is what I like...not alts. Give me some feeling of 'ownership' over the world I play in because that makes me feel like I need to be logged on, not because I'd miss out on what is essentially $15/mo DLC, but because of what I'd miss out in-game.
A fast 0-lvl cap is fine, hell, I would prefer to see the whole "level" idea stripped from MMOs going forward and a focus put on learned/earned skills instead.
You're right. MMOs don't "need" all the same features and I agree that "innovation" needs to be encouraged, which is why I suggested innovative designs get rated twice as high. But the list I offered is what OTHER MMOs DO offer and they are what I would consider "standard/traditional" end game content for MMOs. They're also what DCUO is competing against.
Where does DCUO rank amongst it's MMO peers? Is DCUO's lack of "traditional" MMO content minimized because of how awesome the "actiony" combat is? TBH, sounds an awful lot like All Points Bulletin.
And it's great that some of you love this game!!! I'm glad you do! Defend it, rip on Bill for giving it a score that was too LOW (I kid Bill)! Tell him (us) why it should be higher. But when the sales and players drop as sharply as they did for DCUO, something is wrong with it.
Something was wrong with the PC version, but the PS3 is still going pretty strong. Another big part of it was the slow additional of the monthly content. It really wasn't timed in a way that would give players a reason to sub for the new content.
While there is enough content to last a couple months, without some much meatier content updates, players really have no other reason to resub, but that doesn't mean the game is bad, like others are saying.
A great game that only has enough content for 2 months is still a great game, no matter if theres a drop off or not.
On a side note,
The game had a very fair set of reviews, and MMORPG.coms review wasn't the most shining example of them all, and it sure wasn't the worst.
I don't see how there is much more to say on the topic of the review. In the comments section on the IGN review you had people complaining it was too low ( at a 7.0 which I felt was respectible given the author didn't like the majority of the game much at all but did enjoy the combat features). If theres a crusade happening over this review, why don't they lash out against everyone who publishes their opinion for money on a website over this game?
Its silly to try and crucify a website over the opinions of just one of their writers, especially if that writer is known for being pretty even handed. You can't make everyone happy, especially on this forum, especially when the company is SOE, and especially with a niche title like DCUO.
That Bill and Jon joined the conversation at all is somewhat of a concern for me personally, because I fear that they may take some of this personally in regards to jabs at the site when they really shouldn't. The very pessimistic, vocal minority berrating them over this review is only meant to reinforce their position that really has no bearing on those that enjoy what the game offers.
I'm sure I play and enjoy a lot of games that most here don't, but thats what I do. I play games andI rate them accordingly. I'd even rather play a bad game then argumentatively theorycraft on whether one could be good or not or why a game "failed" that I never even played post launch or had the desire to play in the first place.
answer me a question, when did "reviews" become opinion pieces? I mean, I have read car reviews, electronic reviews, movie reviews, even book reviews and nowhere do I see "opinion pieces". I even double checked the dictionary to make sure I remembered what the word meant. Nowhere in the definition does it mention opinion. (merriam-webster.com 6:a : a critical evaluation (as of a book or play)"...www.thefreedictionary.com 3. To examine with an eye to criticism or correction"
From the reviews I have read from this site there is nothing resembeling "reviewing" being done here, just "opinion pieces". No critical evaluations, no examinations with and eye to criticism or correction. In fact the only ones doing that are the posters.
Granted I have seen reviewers present opinions after stating all the pros/cons, and facts on the matter. But again, never seen them as "opinion pieces". I have also never seen a review written just for the enjoyment of the writer. No, I thing that "game" reviewers need to change the titles of thier reviews to "Opinion Pieces" or "How I got a warm fuzzy when Cao called" (or RadarX, or some other game rep.) and be honest with everyone that they really don't have a clue what the hell they are talking about.
All reviews are opinions. They are not all fact-based scientifical, analytical articles with some kind of industry standard method. If that were the case, don't you think you'd see all reviews having the same score? And if that were the case, what would the point be of different reviewers? We're all different and enjoy different things. In all of my reviews I turn a pretty strong critical eye towards issues I come up against, but that doesn't mean I won't turn out to like a game.
On top of that, two peoples expereinces could be very different as its likely some people may experience a problem on one PC and not on another -- just like in reviews of DCUO where some people would not like something on the PC but find it to be much better on the PS3.
All games strike people differently, and all experiences can change drastically -- especially in an MMO space where player interaction can really change your perception from something really good, to absolutely horrible.
I'd like to see what kind of standardized review sites some of you are looking at, because I'm sure if I spent 10 minutes looking through past reviews, I'd find one that the majority of people would say - didn't add up - and in the end, the writer would respond "Its just one mans take on the game." Thats the nature of the beast fellas.
The press is more concerned with "access" than they are honesty. ...the same could be said for our entire political system too. If a "journalist" asks too many tough questions or writes bad reviews, they get blacklisted by the publishers quickly and lose the ability to ask any questions at all. ...which wouldn't be a real problem in an ideal world were people in general were recognized for their integrity. But in this world, only sensationalism and access matters. A "journalist" (or usually just unpaid Bloggers at this point) without access to the most up-to-date sound bites and direct interactions with the Studios basically has to rely on their own "talents" to drive each piece, and Talent/imagination isn't something that's taught in English Classes in public schools... infact it's actually discouraged there.
ProTip: If you wanted a real review of this failed game, you shoulda watched Ben "yahtzee" Croshaw's...
(FYI, I know b/c I was a "ViP" Beta Tester... so yes I did get those 2-3 months & 200+ hours)
I think you over estimate the success of the PS3 version compared to the PC version. It may not have the exploits, but it has just its own set of bugs, people asking for server mergers, transfers, dead servers, etc. Same game, similar results.
DCU has a few weeks of decent content that quickly devolves into repeating the same locations over and over again. No this isn't an issue of "all games have grind" or whatever you might say. Just judging DCU on what it offers and there really isn't very much quantity wise.
The recycling of content is so out of hand that the Batcave is more like a tourist attraction than it is Batmans SECRET hideout.
If the game had 2 solid months of great gameplay, then people wouldn't have mass quit in the first month like they did.
The new content went out feb. 22nd, thats roughly 10 days after the first months renewal. On logging in many servers were on high population the weekend after. I daresay most people didn't renew for their 3rd month, but the second month still had a very healthy population on the PC. PS3 servers still get high population at times.
Game had tons of servers at launch, they even opened more due to queue times all across the board, merges would be a good idea anyways. Thats growing pains for ya, you see it with just about every new release nowadays. You disagree with this?
Wait wait wait a minute...
I've been VERY respectful of Bill's opinion on the game and I'm not at all pleased that you quoted ME with this accusatory tone. MMOrpg is free to review any game they like in any manner they see fit - it's their site and I respect that I am just a guest here.
I simply offered a suggestion earlier on that the review may have been based solely on gameplay, not "MMO" features/expectations. I keep seeing the trend of "FUN game...but..." comments as well as a CRASHING subscriber base. There must be something missing from the game that MMO players WANT/expect that isn't in DCUO if it's so much "fun" yet flopping - "I" am trying to figure out what that something might be. Bill could have given the game a 10 or a 1, it doesn't change how the game is doing.
I wasn't referencing you TUX, I just had quoted you for the original part, then I put the "on a side note" to address other parts of the conversation. (from other posters, probably should have noted them)
And you are right, score doesn't change how the game is doing, nor should it. Scores should be determined by the reviewer based on whether they were able to enjoy the game (or not) and give a run down of what they encountered culminating into a final score that expresses their conclusion. (whether good or bad). Scores don't have to always dictate whether a game will be successful or not.
I know the thread was hijacked a long time ago, but let's get back on the actual topic of the thread, okay? If you'd like to discuss editorial policy or make suggestions, we have a forum for that purpose and contact emails. Further off-topic posts may be removed.
To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com
OK
Just wanted to be 100% clear!
That highlighted part though is what I was trying to get at earlier. JUST a suggestion...but I think there should probably be some sort of uniformity to reviews. Selling an action game as an MMO is fine, but I think MMORPG writers should have a better idea of what MMO players are looking for in an MMO. DCUO (and I'm only picking on them because it's the game being discussed) seems to be lacking something MMO players (the very people this site is designed for) tend to want.
edit: Sorry Amana, posted 1 min after you.
People were already complaining about empty servers before the first month was up, so I don't think to many stuck around for the second month. I also think the Feb22 patch pretty much was the cause for the second dropoff. More bugs, more problems, more shallow content. A lot of players were holding out hope for the roughly-monthly updates and it failed to retain people. That was the second massive drop off and the number of empty server threads skyrocketed.
I do agree that server mergers would be a good think for the remaining customers, but server mergers do not address the issues that caused people to leave in the first place. The longer those issues go unresolved the more people leave and lose faith.
This isn't a case of growing pains. This is a case of dieing pains. Look at the games the last several years that have followed this trend as is happening to DCU right now and tell me if they are considered great games. Warhammer, Conan, Aion, Champions, Star Trek Online, APB, etc. None have recovered and they never will.
There are really only a few games that managed to release well and retain their players and they did so, because they were good games at release. As much as you want to protest DCU doesn't fit that mold. It will go down in history as another vanguard. Great potential, but never achieved.
No, no they are not. In fact as i stated, nowhere does the definition does it state it is an opinion. Many "real" reviews leave opinion and biased out of their reviews. Obviously that has changed for game reviews.
True, experiences are differnet and if I were reviewing a game I would miss things wrong/working that another reviewer found. But as a real reviewer, I would look for the good and the bad and not my feelings. Objectivity isn't something that can be tossed away without one's credibility going with it.
As many have stated, even in the beta we the players saw these issues and were very vocal about it here. I was one of the ones scratching my head when I read some of the reviews. I have been more than fair and consistant on what I thought the flaws with this game were and the fact without certain things it would not last. You can brush off my comments all you like, but the fact remains that DCUO seems to be taking a nose dive over the same issues the MAJORITY of players were harping on in beta. An objective reviewer could/would have seen the pros and the cons and reported on both. Like I have stated here before, I like the game play style and was ready for a genre change from what I have been playing/testing. But too much was wrong with DCUO to make it a successful game and any real MMO reviewer would have know what to look for for a good game.
I VIVIDLY agree. A review is not just uttering opinion.
As I wrote here (scroll below) dicussing reviewings per se:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/310870/page/4
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Metacritic and Gamerankings show an average rating of 7 to 7.3, with a user score of 7.5.
What's the big fuss with mmorpg.com's score of 8??
Some people didn't like it, and an mmorpg they don't like should by default get a 5 or less, or so?
I think the biggest problem with reviewing an mmorpg, that any review can only cover the first 40-80 hours, while an mmorpg is supposed to last for hundreds to thousands of hours, and the high level content is usually a lot different from the low to mid level content.
Sure, an mmorpg can be awesome in the first 20 to 50 hours of gameplay, but how will it be after 100-150 hours? But that is the content that'll make MMO gamers decide whether to sub after the first month or two, or not.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."