I Dont mind any kinds of Transporttion really,,,, GUYs CROSS YOUR FINGERS.... maybe in GW2 you get a mount or a skill to run fast or something to travel fast other than the TP..or like at lvl 50 or something u get a mount lol i really hope they do that....
I Dont mind any kinds of Transporttion really,,,, GUYs CROSS YOUR FINGERS.... maybe in GW2 you get a mount or a skill to run fast or something to travel fast other than the TP..or like at lvl 50 or something u get a mount lol i really hope they do that....
Though that's possible, I highly doubt it.
Teleportation pretty much defeats the purpose of mounts.
I myself would not mind having mounts, as they really do not affect the game negatively, but it just seems unnecessary.
The only logical way they would put mounts in is if higher level maps have no/little teleportation points. This would stress eploration for the higher level players whom should have at least played through the majority of the content.
Some bad guys in GW1 do res their allies. Its especially annoying when the White Mantle do it during bounty quests.
What bugs me though is me is when the plot calls for an NPC to be killed as part of a mission. Makes no sense in a world with ressurection magic. So Shiro kills Master Togo so what How come we don't res him?
I guess you guys do know that waypoints used to res yourself if no one else will.
Er, how does traversing an open virtual world ruin the feel of an open virtual world? Instantly teleporting makes a game feel like a game, and ruins the feel of an MMO.
Travel time adds weight to PvP, adds weight to loss in an encounter, adds a feel of size and immersion to the world, and lets people see all the work people put into the game world.
Instant travel makes a world feel trivial, makes the game world itself look empty outside of hubs, instant travel unbalances PvP, ect ect.
I'm sorry, but EVERY MMO feels like a game to me. They just do. Perhaps you interact with your MIND, no controls involved, and when a character dies, you just delete your account, but most people play games like they're games... games which are filled with all sorts of gaming conventions. Like other people have pointed out, perma-death would certainly add to the immersion factor, and so would crippling conditions (You broke your leg. Please log out for the next week) and an inability to switch characters (You're one person int he real world, why can you be more than one in this one?). If you're confusing a game with some sort of real world, they actually have medications for that.
Almost everybody here, no matter what side of the argument, wants there to not be teleportation in PvP, so that part of your argument is a complete non-starter. ANet is specifically creating a world devoid of death penalty. I'm sorry, but 'Oh, you lost 10% of your xp' or 'Oh, now you have to pay 100 silver to fix your armor' or 'Now you have to spend some time running back to where you were, but you're a ghost so it's just time-wasting' are all pretty crappy death penalties. In the case of death penalties, my opinion is go big or go home. Wasting somebody's time with minor inconveniences like 'Now run back to where you were' is just that... wasting people's time. So far as size and immersion, people still have to traverse the world in the first place, to find these waypoints... and running back and forth across the same point for the 50th time doesn't make anybody think 'Wow, now I REALLY see the work people put into this game, because I didn't pay attention the first 49 times, but this time I'm really watching closely!'. Well, nobody I know, maybe you're different.
Also, in a world with dynamic events that range across the map... moving, rather than mostly static quests that sit in place and wait for somebody to come to them, the world should be looking a lot less empty in the first place. Also, all the cool explorer types will be running around looking for stuff anyway, (I know I will. I like exploring. :P ) finding secrets and getting crafting stuff. ... but if I want to get somewhere fast, I want to get there FAST. If I want to play with my friends, I want to play with them now. Not wait out a 30 minute time between boat rides, or spend 5 minutes on a travel path which only serves as time where I'm not playing the game at all. Seriously, who, when they're riding a horse or flying around, no longer playing the game, spends every single time they do it, the whole time staring at the game map and going 'Ohshit this is badass. I am feeling really immersed'? No. People go 'Oh, I needed a bathroom break' or 'I guess I will check my tweets'. Immersion-adding, they're not.
Even running manually... I can only accept that as 'adding extra immersion' if the game has no follow button, no autorun, and senses if you're holding down the key for more than 30 seconds and insists you walk in a new fashion because you're obviously not actually playing the game and being immersed anymore.
(PS. Just out of curiousity, when you watch Star Trek episodes, do you constantly complain about how their teleporting breaks immersion? :T )
The map-travel topic (much like potions in GW2) is a bit of a 'dead horse' one. It is a planned feature and isn't going away any time soon. And the majority of those 'against' map travel will end up using it anyway.
The map-travel topic (much like potions in GW2) is a bit of a 'dead horse' one. It is a planned feature and isn't going away any time soon. And the majority of those 'against' map travel will end up using it anyway.
I always thought that was the whole reason they complained so much.
I'm planning on running around for fun, except when I want to get somewhere fast. I have willpower! I don't have to teleport all the time! I have my addiction under control!
Whenever somebody suggests 'If you don't like map travel, don't use it', the people who don't want map travel will look at you like you're crazy. What? Are you kiddinG? Of COURSE they'll use it. A lot. Because it's convenient. ... and they'll hate it every time they do.
The number of teleport locations as seen in the starter area was just too many. If it takes less than 1 minute to reach anywhere in the world, it takes a lot away of the charm of that world, at least to me.
I thought that WoW had a pretty elegant solution, with its eagle flight routes: you had fast travel options with them that at the same time showed you the beauty of its world in scenic routes.
Originally posted by Meowhead
Whenever somebody suggests 'If you don't like map travel, don't use it', the people who don't want map travel will look at you like you're crazy. What? Are you kiddinG? Of COURSE they'll use it. A lot. Because it's convenient. ... and they'll hate it every time they do.
I think it's the same as with the complaints of solo questing and leveling vs enforced grouping. Sure, when there's the option of solo leveling that gets you xp quickly then of course I'll take it. But that doesn't mean that I don't see the merits of systems that encourage leveling being more of a group experience.
The same with traveling: the fact that I'll use fast travel systems doesn't make me appreciate less how the slow traveling in EQ make me feel the sensation of a vast and dangerous world.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The number of teleport locations as seen in the starter area was just too many. If it takes less than 1 minute to reach anywhere in the world, it takes a lot away of the charm of that world, at least to me.
I thought that WoW had a pretty elegant solution, with its eagle flight routes: you had fast travel options with them that at the same time showed you the beauty of its world in scenic routes.
That's funny, because I hated those things. I hated them with a passion. The first one or two times, it was scenic. After that, it was wasting my time, taking too long and not letting me play the game.
Even if there had been a mild mini-game (Every time eagle starts to veer to take the scenic route, hit spacebar and you'll whack them upside the head so they fly straight and get there faster!), I would have at least been playing the game, but after a while, flight paths just started to feel like enforced bathroom break time.
Also, I don't know if they changed it later, but I also had a problem where sometimes I'd have to take one flight path to get on another... sort of like swapping from one bus route to another. Which meant if I went to go make a sandwich, I could come back and STILL have to go AFK a second time.
A man can only eat so many sandwiches before they get fat.
I've always been pretty time limited, and I like spending my time when I'm playing a game... well, playing a game. Flight paths are like cinematic cut scenes in a JRPG, only with a really crappy budget.
I voted neutral. I will use it when I feel like it. Anyway, if the road I'm heading towards doesn't bore me down even for the XXth iteration then I'll walk through it.
As for other people popping in and out of my sight...well, that's their thing.
I've always been pretty time limited, and I like spending my time when I'm playing a game... well, playing a game. Flight paths are like cinematic cut scenes in a JRPG, only with a really crappy budget.
Meh, sounds a bit ADDish if a flight route is already too long for you. Differernt tastes, I guess. I'm sure you would have hated all the old pre-2005 MMORPG's with their limited means of fast travel.
Me, I prefer it when an MMO world actually gives off that sensation of vastness and being immense, and when travel is a little bit more meaningful than a quick teleport and 10-20s running at max.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Meh, sounds a bit ADDish if a flight route is already too long for you. Differernt tastes, I guess. I'm sure you would have hated all the old pre-2005 MMORPG's with their limited means of fast travel.
Me, I prefer it when an MMO world actually gives off that sensation of vastness and being immense, and when travel is a little bit more meaningful than a quick teleport and 10-20s running at max.
... but you're not actually playing the GAME. That's my problem with it. ... and they're not that interesting past the first couple times. Seriously, are you watching the flight paths every time you take them? If so, you're the only person I've ever met, including many REALLY dedicated WoW players, who has.
It's AFK time. It's not ADD in my case, it's my LASER PRECISE FOCUS. I am playing a game, and... ufdah.
Kicked out.
You know my two favorite games for long travel distances? City of Heroes and Auto Assault. Even if I took LONGER to reach point A to point B than a flight path. Why's that?
Because I'm actually doing something. I tended to pick either superspeed or the ability to jump really high in CoH, because both were more active than flying (Flying is good for combat, but as a travel method? Point character in X direction, hit autofly, walk away.). I'm still playing my game.
Auto Assault was AMAZING. I could drive around and do stunts and stuff. I remember being so proud when my hotrodded and pimped out car jumped over a huge chasm I used to have to drive around. I even got xp for doing the jump!
I am not against travel TIME, I think there's a formula. It involves time involved, amount of gameplay involved, and convenience, and how interesting it is.
Flight Travel was in this really awkward spot where it's interesting the FIRST couple times, then not anymore (I've already seen this EXACT same flight path. Also, there's no chance of being attacked mid-flight, so I have no reason to not wander off while it's going on)... there's =0= gameplay involved (Like I said, a minigame that sped you up a little would have added a lot. You play the minigame and get there faster... gameplay -> faster travel, or if you want to AFK, you'll just take a little longer), and it still takes a lot more time and less convenience than teleporting (Teleporting is the KING of 'convenience and time involved', though fails in the other categories... but failing in gameplay is okay, because it's a relatively-instantaneous thing, so it's a BRIEF period of no gameplay)
It probably depends upon how you want them balanced out, but I found the flight paths just rubbed me the wrong way with how many ways it fails the 4 things I want out of a travel option.
That's funny, because I hated those things. I hated them with a passion. The first one or two times, it was scenic. After that, it was wasting my time, taking too long and not letting me play the game.
Even if there had been a mild mini-game (Every time eagle starts to veer to take the scenic route, hit spacebar and you'll whack them upside the head so they fly straight and get there faster!), I would have at least been playing the game, but after a while, flight paths just started to feel like enforced bathroom break time.
Also, I don't know if they changed it later, but I also had a problem where sometimes I'd have to take one flight path to get on another... sort of like swapping from one bus route to another. Which meant if I went to go make a sandwich, I could come back and STILL have to go AFK a second time.
A man can only eat so many sandwiches before they get fat.
I've always been pretty time limited, and I like spending my time when I'm playing a game... well, playing a game. Flight paths are like cinematic cut scenes in a JRPG, only with a really crappy budget.
When you just need to take 1 it has never been a problem for me, perfect time for a quick bio break or to get some soda & snacks. When you have to jump on and off a few to get right they annoy me (well, the ones in EQ2, I don't play Wow) because you have 2 minutes downtime, have to get to the mouse so you take the next one and repeat. I usually just ride that distance instead even if it takes longer. As you said, you can just eat that many sandwiche.
Generally isn't really flightpaths much better than teleportation, it is just like waiting on a boat, you chat a little bit while you do nothing. It can be relaxing at times but generally is it just annoying.
I think long travel should be solved by boat travels, but I think it should be on a large boat where you can gamble, do small quests, maybe get attacked by pirates (but not too often) and stuff like that. If travelling becomes an adventure in itself it is more fun.
Land travel where you rent yourself in as caravan guards can also be fun.
Just running or riding long distances gets boring. But I still think that GW2 at least needs to limit the point you can teleport too. Just outposts, thankyou.
There's little difference with hitting auto-run or auto-fly and then course-correct once or twice a minuteP: in those minutes of traveling you're still doing nothing, besides correcting course 1 or 2 times.
That said, it's besides the point, I only mentioned flight routes as an example of one of the fast travel options. Bottomline is, that you either travel to a destination while seeing the MMO world or teleporting towards it in 1 go because 'hey, if you've seen the area a few times then they stop being interesting'.
Like I said, different tastes, so different opinions. I prefer it when teleport is sparse and not around everywhere.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Guild Wars 2 is being developed to enhance the community experience. Everything is designed around bringing people together. Gathering nodes don't go away for someone else when you gather from it. Dynamic events reward everyone who participates. You don't "tag" a mob and wind up the only one that gets loot... everyone that takes part in defeating the mob is rewarded. Events scale up and down with the number of people participating, so you never have to dread people showing up during an event... or leaving. And of course, map travel. Map travel brings friends together quickly so they may experience something together quickly. If an event is happening and your friend wants you to come along, you're there and a part of the action. With lesser MMOs, you actually have 5, 10 15 or even longer minutes of afk gryphon travel to get to a major hub to teleport to a different hub to get on another gryphon flight path to eventually get to your friends... unless, of course, they summon you.
Keep in mind events, unlike the old style of ! questing, don't wait for you. When they're going, they're going. If you had to slow travel to each and every one, odds are many will be completed before you get there. Sure, perhaps you'll catch up on a branching event, but that's a lot of time with your friends that was lost to simply trying to get there.
Immersion is far less relevant than community it seems in GW2. I think we'll be ok.
There's little difference with hitting auto-run or auto-fly and then course-correct once or twice a minuteP: in those minutes of traveling you're still doing nothing, besides correcting course 1 or 2 times.
That said, it's besides the point, I only mentioned flight routes as an example of one of the fast travel options. Bottomline is, that you either travel to a destination while seeing the MMO world or teleporting towards it in 1 go because 'hey, if you've seen the area a few times then they stop being interesting'.
Like I said, different tastes, so different opinions. I prefer it when teleport is sparse and not around everywhere.
I'm not a huge fan of how much 'fun' auto-run/auto-fly is. Didn't you see where I said that?
Auto-run through a 'safe' zone (ONe where you're too powerful to worry about dying) is the WORST probably. Worse than flight paths. Worse than just about anything you could ever possibly imagine as a travel option in a game.
1. You aren't playing the game (Failure as gameplay)
2. It takes as long as physically possible while still actually moving towards your goal (Failure in time involved)
3. Since you're probably not watching the screen, you're not involved in the game world (Failure as interesting)
4. You can still get hung up on a random part of the environment, and end up stuck (Failure is convenience. You do have to check occasionaly to autocorrect or whatever)
That's why I liked travel in City of Heroes (Try using super-speed + auto-run. It's about 3 seconds of movement, then you bouncing off a wall at 90 miles an hour. ) and Auto Assault, like I mentioned earlier.
I actually find that my (personal problem. Of course, all of this discussion about the best mechanic deals with how people personally feel about these things, rather than some great cosmic truth) problem with travel in MOST MMOs, is that most of the methods are pretty bad. What Loke666 said about a big boat full of things to do? See, that's considerably more awesome as a mechanic other than "Get on a boat. Walk away while you boat from A to B'.
The only part that makes travel (This includes walking/running/being on a mount) interesting in most games is that there's things to DO on the way like kill things, or mine nodes (That's what kept me sane in LotRO. Mining.). Travel itself is usually fail. Travel does not HAVE to be failure in a game... I'll list some examples.
Tony Hawk. SSX. Driving games. Any game where travelling is the FOCUS of the game, does this pretty well.
Mirror's Edge, Prince of Persia. Hey, Parkour is always fun.
Something like Mount & Blade, where the horse riding is actually pretty dynamic (It could be fixed up a bit, but the horse has a weighty feel to it. It's not just you running + faster. It also changes combat. Bonus.)
Actually, when you're in a more difficult area in an MMO, travel becomes a lot more fun. It's not just 'Head from A to B, go!', there's some sneaking involved, trying to stay out of aggro radius... bursts of movement, jinking to step just out of where a character might notice you....
I guess I'm just a bit fan of games being as full of as much good game mechanics as possible, and I think most games totally skimp on travel, and almost treat it as something they shouldn't care about.
Immersion does not have to be counter to good game mechanics, by the way...
A really interesting boat/air ship/whatever can be a lot of fun. Have the travel method have its own unique in-game ecosystem... people to talk to, things to do, and so on.
A really weighty, realistic horse and a need to navigate terrain, jump over obstacles, and worry about pacing could be a ton of fun. Especially with added combat mechanics. That would be a mount I would be proud of in an MMORPG.
I just don't want to spend a lot of time playing a game and realizing that I could be replaced by a soulless robot written in 5 lines of code that could be doing just as good or better of a job than me. Long travel times without gameplay, you don't even need 1 line of code.
Note, even with huge non-gameplay breaks during say... a cinematic for SW:ToR, I wouldn't be complaining about time lost, because there's story involved, and things happening. ... and if I've done that particular story 4 times, hopefully there's a 'skip to my dialogue option' choice. The storytelling on a pre-programmed horse ride (LotRO) or a flight path (WoW) is 'Look at the scenery. Now look at it again.'. Which is cool.... about twice. Three times tops.
Like I said, this is all personal. People can enjoy their flight paths all they want, I just don't. I'm not 'enjoying' teleportation, but it gets me from one point I'm enjoying to another, smoothly. It's like how I don't enjoy opening the door to go outside, but if it took me 3 minutes to open it, I'd downright hate it.
Like I said, this is all personal. People can enjoy their flight paths all they want, I just don't. I'm not 'enjoying' teleportation, but it gets me from one point I'm enjoying to another, smoothly. It's like how I don't enjoy opening the door to go outside, but if it took me 3 minutes to open it, I'd downright hate it.
This is actually a really, really good analogy to teleporting in GW2 if you think about it. I mean, we're so used to opening the door to get outside that we don't even think about the process... we simply open the door, go outside and close the door behind us. No immersion lost in real life at all. Why not? Because it's a part of real life. Teleporting will be the same way... it's opening the door to another area that we step out into. We won't even think about it after a short period of time... it's simply a part of the game. There won't be any immersion lost for this very fact.
Take this a little further... imagine if you could det a dial on your door to open it and appear anywhere in the world you've already visited. How soon would the amazement wear off before this was an expected and normal thing? Not very long at all. We adapt to these types of changes very quickly.
Auto-run through a 'safe' zone (ONe where you're too powerful to worry about dying) is the WORST probably. Worse than flight paths. Worse than just about anything you could ever possibly imagine as a travel option in a game.
...
I completely agree, and I think you touched on something that is very vital to this discussion.
Many detractors of fast travel seem to think that fast travel is nearly always bad and removing it from a game will ultimately make the game better. I disagree and here's why. If the game was not designed to make REPEATED travel interesting somehow, then traveling will just be drudgery that's not fun at all. For an example of both sides of this coin...look at how traveling from Qeynos to Freeport went in EQ1:
1. Qeynos Hills - Boring...
2. The Karanas - Boring...
3. Kithicor Wood - HOLY CRAP!
So why was Kithicor Wood so much more interesting than the other zones? Because there were insanely high level MOBs trying to kill you that's why! It was a harrowing journey and it made it interesting.
Now I'm not advocating that every journey should be insanely frought with danger, but the old EQ1 trip shows what kind of things can make travel interesting. More importantly, if travel isn't interesting at all, then in my opinion, it should be skipped.
I dont think some people understand about the demo where one could teleport instantly to any spot .. this was done because it was a demo and players only had like 40 so minutes to play it so they could just go on exploring everything... in the real game however after the release you will have to explore in order to unlock those teleports just like you did in GW the FIRST game...IMO i would not want to walk/explore/fly/mount/wow flights.. back to the spot which i had already explored and done all the events chain and everything. If i want to do the events over why do i need to use those options if i have already experienced thats why they have the TP option for instant TP...
It sounds to me like a number of people have no problem at all with the lobby game mechanics, where you hop right to where you want to be.
I'd say it shows the same problems as people have reported in WoW: when you can hop right into a dungeon and can hang around a waiting area, it causes the rest of the world in WoW to become irrelevant and empty and not feel as a world anymore, but just the equivalent of a lobby game. Instant-travel is one of the ways that has the same effect, causing an MMORPG more to operate like a lobby-game, zapping you right to the event that you liked. There are enough players in WoW who have no problem with that at all, just as there are players who dislike the lobby-game effect of certain features. Personal preferences.
Now, this will of course not be the case with GW2, as there's all kinds of events happening in the world that requires attention of players.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It sounds to me like a number of people have no problem at all with the lobby game mechanics, where you hop right to where you want to be.
I'd say it shows the same problems as people have reported in WoW: when you can hop right into a dungeon and can hang around a waiting area, it causes the rest of the world in WoW to become irrelevant and empty and not feel as a world anymore, but just the equivalent of a lobby game. Instant-travel is one of the ways that has the same effect, causing an MMORPG more to operate like a lobby-game, zapping you right to the event that you liked. There are enough players in WoW who have no problem with that at all, just as there are players who dislike the lobby-game effect of certain features. Personal preferences.
Now, this will of course not be the case with GW2, as there's all kinds of events happening in the world that requires attention of players.
Yea since in GW2 there are events happening everywhere....okay lemme do a scenario :
I am lvl 20 my friend just started playing and is lvl 5 or something..He goes like OMGG dudee look this event boss monster is soo crazyyyy...
So without TP my responce would be:; aw mayn hold up ib there in a second .. get on the mount /walk /fly/flights ..i get there omgg what happend where the big boss "insert boss name here" ....my friend "oh its over we killed it it was awesome.."
and WITh TP my response would be "DUDE I am SOOO THERE " and WA BAMM i am there and have much fun with my friend doing the event...
in the end i prefer TPs in GW2 over flights like they had it in wow...although i wouldnt mind mounts,,just cuz mounts look cool..
yeah, because it would be so bad to travel 2-3 minutes before you arrive at your destination, my god, those are 2-3 minutes that'll NEVER come back
But hey, mate, if that's your thing, hopping around, teleporting all over the world to right at the spot where you want to be, good for you, tastes and preferences differ . My own preference is otherwise.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
yeah, because it would be so bad to travel 2-3 minutes before you arrive at your destination, my god, those are 2-3 minutes that'll NEVER come back
But hey, mate, if that's your thing, hopping around, teleporting all over the world to right at the spot where you want to be, good for you, tastes and preferences differ . My own preference is otherwise.
Well, the fight could be over in the 2-3 minutes before you arrive, and yes, those are 2-3 minutes that never will come back. I certainly would like to actually participate in the event with my friends rather than take 2-3 minutes and walk there. I don't mind taking 2-3 minutes to walk around and explore, but when I have a destination I want to get there as fast as possible and nothing is faster than teleportation.
It is personal preference, just don't bitch and moan if everbody gets mad at you because you take to long.
If the fight is over in 2-3 minutes, then it wasn't that special if all it provided was 2-3 minutes of fun while you're playing 2-3 hours in a session. Besides, GW2 is thus constructed that if you have done one event, you can jump onto the next link in the chain of events, it's hardly ever really 'over', as in a quest that's finished and that you can't do again anymore.
Sorry, but I found the whole example unconvincing as well as unrealistic: bottomline is, you either like instant-teleporting to any spot in the world, or you dislike it. Me, I think it's useful and handy when it's ingame moderately and not overkill. Other people like you think otherwise. That happens with different tastes and all.
Anyway, I've discussed this topic already more than I planned to, so I'm going to leave it at this
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It sounds to me like a number of people have no problem at all with the lobby game mechanics, where you hop right to where you want to be.
I'd say it shows the same problems as people have reported in WoW: when you can hop right into a dungeon and can hang around a waiting area, it causes the rest of the world in WoW to become irrelevant and empty and not feel as a world anymore, but just the equivalent of a lobby game. Instant-travel is one of the ways that has the same effect, causing an MMORPG more to operate like a lobby-game, zapping you right to the event that you liked. There are enough players in WoW who have no problem with that at all, just as there are players who dislike the lobby-game effect of certain features. Personal preferences.
Now, this will of course not be the case with GW2, as there's all kinds of events happening in the world that requires attention of players.
I have a question for everyone that thinks like this, that teleportation = lobby game. So does that mean UO was a lobby based game and not a sandbox world. After all in UO you could teleport everywhere! I find that intriguing that the game most MMO players point to as one of the greatest sandboxes, today would be considered a lobby based game because it gave the option to teleport everywhere.
On another note there is a huge diffrence between WoWs dungeon finder and GW2 waypoint system. In GW2 you still have to explore and find the waypoints, while the dungeon finder will just telport you there, without ever having to find the dungeon.
It sounds to me like a number of people have no problem at all with the lobby game mechanics, where you hop right to where you want to be.
I'd say it shows the same problems as people have reported in WoW: when you can hop right into a dungeon and can hang around a waiting area, it causes the rest of the world in WoW to become irrelevant and empty and not feel as a world anymore, but just the equivalent of a lobby game. Instant-travel is one of the ways that has the same effect, causing an MMORPG more to operate like a lobby-game, zapping you right to the event that you liked. There are enough players in WoW who have no problem with that at all, just as there are players who dislike the lobby-game effect of certain features. Personal preferences.
Now, this will of course not be the case with GW2, as there's all kinds of events happening in the world that requires attention of players.
I look at WoW's system as being isolating. The dungeon finder matches you up with people who aren't even necessarily on your server. There's zero incentive for communication. Just get it done and move on.
I also don't necessarily see teleporting to the dungeon as being a bad thing. If you were on your way to solo quest, you might miss something by skipping past the content, but if you're doing a dungeon then it's a 5 person thing you're committed to. Especially in a game like WoW, where you can do heroic versions of any dungeon, flying all the way back to the starter zones of the expansion just makes people want to go AFK.
GW2 teleportation gets you to the action if you want to get to the action. On one hand, you might miss opportunities by skipping past the content, but it gets you to a different opportunity faster. On the other hand, because of the way the game automentors you down, it's a really unique situation if you think about it. I was going to say that if you're level 10 and the zone has level 1-10 events in it, then it would be nice to be able to get to those level 10 events faster. But when you think about it, that level 5 event you haven't done yet is also a fresh opportunity that's just as good.
I just think it's going to be a good system. If you have friends you want to meet up with, you can get to them faster. If you're with those friends and you decide to do a dungeon, you're there. If you're off in the wilderness and nobody is around and you want to be around strangers, you can port around the map until you find a sizeable group doing events. If you want to try to find those hidden events for explorers by walking around the map, you can do that too. The game is going to be designed so that you're never far away from an event. Teleportation just adds convenience on top of that rich environment.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Comments
I Dont mind any kinds of Transporttion really,,,, GUYs CROSS YOUR FINGERS.... maybe in GW2 you get a mount or a skill to run fast or something to travel fast other than the TP..or like at lvl 50 or something u get a mount lol i really hope they do that....
Though that's possible, I highly doubt it.
Teleportation pretty much defeats the purpose of mounts.
I myself would not mind having mounts, as they really do not affect the game negatively, but it just seems unnecessary.
The only logical way they would put mounts in is if higher level maps have no/little teleportation points. This would stress eploration for the higher level players whom should have at least played through the majority of the content.
Some bad guys in GW1 do res their allies. Its especially annoying when the White Mantle do it during bounty quests.
What bugs me though is me is when the plot calls for an NPC to be killed as part of a mission. Makes no sense in a world with ressurection magic. So Shiro kills Master Togo so what How come we don't res him?
I guess you guys do know that waypoints used to res yourself if no one else will.
I'm sorry, but EVERY MMO feels like a game to me. They just do. Perhaps you interact with your MIND, no controls involved, and when a character dies, you just delete your account, but most people play games like they're games... games which are filled with all sorts of gaming conventions. Like other people have pointed out, perma-death would certainly add to the immersion factor, and so would crippling conditions (You broke your leg. Please log out for the next week) and an inability to switch characters (You're one person int he real world, why can you be more than one in this one?). If you're confusing a game with some sort of real world, they actually have medications for that.
Almost everybody here, no matter what side of the argument, wants there to not be teleportation in PvP, so that part of your argument is a complete non-starter. ANet is specifically creating a world devoid of death penalty. I'm sorry, but 'Oh, you lost 10% of your xp' or 'Oh, now you have to pay 100 silver to fix your armor' or 'Now you have to spend some time running back to where you were, but you're a ghost so it's just time-wasting' are all pretty crappy death penalties. In the case of death penalties, my opinion is go big or go home. Wasting somebody's time with minor inconveniences like 'Now run back to where you were' is just that... wasting people's time. So far as size and immersion, people still have to traverse the world in the first place, to find these waypoints... and running back and forth across the same point for the 50th time doesn't make anybody think 'Wow, now I REALLY see the work people put into this game, because I didn't pay attention the first 49 times, but this time I'm really watching closely!'. Well, nobody I know, maybe you're different.
Also, in a world with dynamic events that range across the map... moving, rather than mostly static quests that sit in place and wait for somebody to come to them, the world should be looking a lot less empty in the first place. Also, all the cool explorer types will be running around looking for stuff anyway, (I know I will. I like exploring. :P ) finding secrets and getting crafting stuff. ... but if I want to get somewhere fast, I want to get there FAST. If I want to play with my friends, I want to play with them now. Not wait out a 30 minute time between boat rides, or spend 5 minutes on a travel path which only serves as time where I'm not playing the game at all. Seriously, who, when they're riding a horse or flying around, no longer playing the game, spends every single time they do it, the whole time staring at the game map and going 'Ohshit this is badass. I am feeling really immersed'? No. People go 'Oh, I needed a bathroom break' or 'I guess I will check my tweets'. Immersion-adding, they're not.
Even running manually... I can only accept that as 'adding extra immersion' if the game has no follow button, no autorun, and senses if you're holding down the key for more than 30 seconds and insists you walk in a new fashion because you're obviously not actually playing the game and being immersed anymore.
(PS. Just out of curiousity, when you watch Star Trek episodes, do you constantly complain about how their teleporting breaks immersion? :T )
The map-travel topic (much like potions in GW2) is a bit of a 'dead horse' one. It is a planned feature and isn't going away any time soon. And the majority of those 'against' map travel will end up using it anyway.
I always thought that was the whole reason they complained so much.
I'm planning on running around for fun, except when I want to get somewhere fast. I have willpower! I don't have to teleport all the time! I have my addiction under control!
Whenever somebody suggests 'If you don't like map travel, don't use it', the people who don't want map travel will look at you like you're crazy. What? Are you kiddinG? Of COURSE they'll use it. A lot. Because it's convenient. ... and they'll hate it every time they do.
The number of teleport locations as seen in the starter area was just too many. If it takes less than 1 minute to reach anywhere in the world, it takes a lot away of the charm of that world, at least to me.
I thought that WoW had a pretty elegant solution, with its eagle flight routes: you had fast travel options with them that at the same time showed you the beauty of its world in scenic routes.
I think it's the same as with the complaints of solo questing and leveling vs enforced grouping. Sure, when there's the option of solo leveling that gets you xp quickly then of course I'll take it. But that doesn't mean that I don't see the merits of systems that encourage leveling being more of a group experience.
The same with traveling: the fact that I'll use fast travel systems doesn't make me appreciate less how the slow traveling in EQ make me feel the sensation of a vast and dangerous world.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
That's funny, because I hated those things. I hated them with a passion. The first one or two times, it was scenic. After that, it was wasting my time, taking too long and not letting me play the game.
Even if there had been a mild mini-game (Every time eagle starts to veer to take the scenic route, hit spacebar and you'll whack them upside the head so they fly straight and get there faster!), I would have at least been playing the game, but after a while, flight paths just started to feel like enforced bathroom break time.
Also, I don't know if they changed it later, but I also had a problem where sometimes I'd have to take one flight path to get on another... sort of like swapping from one bus route to another. Which meant if I went to go make a sandwich, I could come back and STILL have to go AFK a second time.
A man can only eat so many sandwiches before they get fat.
I've always been pretty time limited, and I like spending my time when I'm playing a game... well, playing a game. Flight paths are like cinematic cut scenes in a JRPG, only with a really crappy budget.
I voted neutral. I will use it when I feel like it. Anyway, if the road I'm heading towards doesn't bore me down even for the XXth iteration then I'll walk through it.
As for other people popping in and out of my sight...well, that's their thing.
Meh, sounds a bit ADDish if a flight route is already too long for you. Differernt tastes, I guess. I'm sure you would have hated all the old pre-2005 MMORPG's with their limited means of fast travel.
Me, I prefer it when an MMO world actually gives off that sensation of vastness and being immense, and when travel is a little bit more meaningful than a quick teleport and 10-20s running at max.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
... but you're not actually playing the GAME. That's my problem with it. ... and they're not that interesting past the first couple times. Seriously, are you watching the flight paths every time you take them? If so, you're the only person I've ever met, including many REALLY dedicated WoW players, who has.
It's AFK time. It's not ADD in my case, it's my LASER PRECISE FOCUS. I am playing a game, and... ufdah.
Kicked out.
You know my two favorite games for long travel distances? City of Heroes and Auto Assault. Even if I took LONGER to reach point A to point B than a flight path. Why's that?
Because I'm actually doing something. I tended to pick either superspeed or the ability to jump really high in CoH, because both were more active than flying (Flying is good for combat, but as a travel method? Point character in X direction, hit autofly, walk away.). I'm still playing my game.
Auto Assault was AMAZING. I could drive around and do stunts and stuff. I remember being so proud when my hotrodded and pimped out car jumped over a huge chasm I used to have to drive around. I even got xp for doing the jump!
I am not against travel TIME, I think there's a formula. It involves time involved, amount of gameplay involved, and convenience, and how interesting it is.
Flight Travel was in this really awkward spot where it's interesting the FIRST couple times, then not anymore (I've already seen this EXACT same flight path. Also, there's no chance of being attacked mid-flight, so I have no reason to not wander off while it's going on)... there's =0= gameplay involved (Like I said, a minigame that sped you up a little would have added a lot. You play the minigame and get there faster... gameplay -> faster travel, or if you want to AFK, you'll just take a little longer), and it still takes a lot more time and less convenience than teleporting (Teleporting is the KING of 'convenience and time involved', though fails in the other categories... but failing in gameplay is okay, because it's a relatively-instantaneous thing, so it's a BRIEF period of no gameplay)
It probably depends upon how you want them balanced out, but I found the flight paths just rubbed me the wrong way with how many ways it fails the 4 things I want out of a travel option.
It's not an ADD thing, but thanks for playing.
When you just need to take 1 it has never been a problem for me, perfect time for a quick bio break or to get some soda & snacks. When you have to jump on and off a few to get right they annoy me (well, the ones in EQ2, I don't play Wow) because you have 2 minutes downtime, have to get to the mouse so you take the next one and repeat. I usually just ride that distance instead even if it takes longer. As you said, you can just eat that many sandwiche.
Generally isn't really flightpaths much better than teleportation, it is just like waiting on a boat, you chat a little bit while you do nothing. It can be relaxing at times but generally is it just annoying.
I think long travel should be solved by boat travels, but I think it should be on a large boat where you can gamble, do small quests, maybe get attacked by pirates (but not too often) and stuff like that. If travelling becomes an adventure in itself it is more fun.
Land travel where you rent yourself in as caravan guards can also be fun.
Just running or riding long distances gets boring. But I still think that GW2 at least needs to limit the point you can teleport too. Just outposts, thankyou.
There's little difference with hitting auto-run or auto-fly and then course-correct once or twice a minuteP: in those minutes of traveling you're still doing nothing, besides correcting course 1 or 2 times.
That said, it's besides the point, I only mentioned flight routes as an example of one of the fast travel options. Bottomline is, that you either travel to a destination while seeing the MMO world or teleporting towards it in 1 go because 'hey, if you've seen the area a few times then they stop being interesting'.
Like I said, different tastes, so different opinions. I prefer it when teleport is sparse and not around everywhere.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Guild Wars 2 is being developed to enhance the community experience. Everything is designed around bringing people together. Gathering nodes don't go away for someone else when you gather from it. Dynamic events reward everyone who participates. You don't "tag" a mob and wind up the only one that gets loot... everyone that takes part in defeating the mob is rewarded. Events scale up and down with the number of people participating, so you never have to dread people showing up during an event... or leaving. And of course, map travel. Map travel brings friends together quickly so they may experience something together quickly. If an event is happening and your friend wants you to come along, you're there and a part of the action. With lesser MMOs, you actually have 5, 10 15 or even longer minutes of afk gryphon travel to get to a major hub to teleport to a different hub to get on another gryphon flight path to eventually get to your friends... unless, of course, they summon you.
Keep in mind events, unlike the old style of ! questing, don't wait for you. When they're going, they're going. If you had to slow travel to each and every one, odds are many will be completed before you get there. Sure, perhaps you'll catch up on a branching event, but that's a lot of time with your friends that was lost to simply trying to get there.
Immersion is far less relevant than community it seems in GW2. I think we'll be ok.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I'm not a huge fan of how much 'fun' auto-run/auto-fly is. Didn't you see where I said that?
Auto-run through a 'safe' zone (ONe where you're too powerful to worry about dying) is the WORST probably. Worse than flight paths. Worse than just about anything you could ever possibly imagine as a travel option in a game.
1. You aren't playing the game (Failure as gameplay)
2. It takes as long as physically possible while still actually moving towards your goal (Failure in time involved)
3. Since you're probably not watching the screen, you're not involved in the game world (Failure as interesting)
4. You can still get hung up on a random part of the environment, and end up stuck (Failure is convenience. You do have to check occasionaly to autocorrect or whatever)
That's why I liked travel in City of Heroes (Try using super-speed + auto-run. It's about 3 seconds of movement, then you bouncing off a wall at 90 miles an hour.
) and Auto Assault, like I mentioned earlier.
I actually find that my (personal problem. Of course, all of this discussion about the best mechanic deals with how people personally feel about these things, rather than some great cosmic truth) problem with travel in MOST MMOs, is that most of the methods are pretty bad. What Loke666 said about a big boat full of things to do? See, that's considerably more awesome as a mechanic other than "Get on a boat. Walk away while you boat from A to B'.
The only part that makes travel (This includes walking/running/being on a mount) interesting in most games is that there's things to DO on the way like kill things, or mine nodes (That's what kept me sane in LotRO. Mining.). Travel itself is usually fail. Travel does not HAVE to be failure in a game... I'll list some examples.
Tony Hawk. SSX. Driving games. Any game where travelling is the FOCUS of the game, does this pretty well.
Mirror's Edge, Prince of Persia. Hey, Parkour is always fun.
Something like Mount & Blade, where the horse riding is actually pretty dynamic (It could be fixed up a bit, but the horse has a weighty feel to it. It's not just you running + faster. It also changes combat. Bonus.)
Actually, when you're in a more difficult area in an MMO, travel becomes a lot more fun. It's not just 'Head from A to B, go!', there's some sneaking involved, trying to stay out of aggro radius... bursts of movement, jinking to step just out of where a character might notice you....
I guess I'm just a bit fan of games being as full of as much good game mechanics as possible, and I think most games totally skimp on travel, and almost treat it as something they shouldn't care about.
Immersion does not have to be counter to good game mechanics, by the way...
A really interesting boat/air ship/whatever can be a lot of fun. Have the travel method have its own unique in-game ecosystem... people to talk to, things to do, and so on.
A really weighty, realistic horse and a need to navigate terrain, jump over obstacles, and worry about pacing could be a ton of fun. Especially with added combat mechanics. That would be a mount I would be proud of in an MMORPG.
I just don't want to spend a lot of time playing a game and realizing that I could be replaced by a soulless robot written in 5 lines of code that could be doing just as good or better of a job than me.
Long travel times without gameplay, you don't even need 1 line of code.
Note, even with huge non-gameplay breaks during say... a cinematic for SW:ToR, I wouldn't be complaining about time lost, because there's story involved, and things happening. ... and if I've done that particular story 4 times, hopefully there's a 'skip to my dialogue option' choice. The storytelling on a pre-programmed horse ride (LotRO) or a flight path (WoW) is 'Look at the scenery. Now look at it again.'. Which is cool.... about twice. Three times tops.
Like I said, this is all personal. People can enjoy their flight paths all they want, I just don't. I'm not 'enjoying' teleportation, but it gets me from one point I'm enjoying to another, smoothly. It's like how I don't enjoy opening the door to go outside, but if it took me 3 minutes to open it, I'd downright hate it.
This is actually a really, really good analogy to teleporting in GW2 if you think about it. I mean, we're so used to opening the door to get outside that we don't even think about the process... we simply open the door, go outside and close the door behind us. No immersion lost in real life at all. Why not? Because it's a part of real life. Teleporting will be the same way... it's opening the door to another area that we step out into. We won't even think about it after a short period of time... it's simply a part of the game. There won't be any immersion lost for this very fact.
Take this a little further... imagine if you could det a dial on your door to open it and appear anywhere in the world you've already visited. How soon would the amazement wear off before this was an expected and normal thing? Not very long at all. We adapt to these types of changes very quickly.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I completely agree, and I think you touched on something that is very vital to this discussion.
Many detractors of fast travel seem to think that fast travel is nearly always bad and removing it from a game will ultimately make the game better. I disagree and here's why. If the game was not designed to make REPEATED travel interesting somehow, then traveling will just be drudgery that's not fun at all. For an example of both sides of this coin...look at how traveling from Qeynos to Freeport went in EQ1:
1. Qeynos Hills - Boring...
2. The Karanas - Boring...
3. Kithicor Wood - HOLY CRAP!
So why was Kithicor Wood so much more interesting than the other zones? Because there were insanely high level MOBs trying to kill you that's why! It was a harrowing journey and it made it interesting.
Now I'm not advocating that every journey should be insanely frought with danger, but the old EQ1 trip shows what kind of things can make travel interesting. More importantly, if travel isn't interesting at all, then in my opinion, it should be skipped.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I dont think some people understand about the demo where one could teleport instantly to any spot .. this was done because it was a demo and players only had like 40 so minutes to play it so they could just go on exploring everything... in the real game however after the release you will have to explore in order to unlock those teleports just like you did in GW the FIRST game...IMO i would not want to walk/explore/fly/mount/wow flights.. back to the spot which i had already explored and done all the events chain and everything. If i want to do the events over why do i need to use those options if i have already experienced thats why they have the TP option for instant TP...
It sounds to me like a number of people have no problem at all with the lobby game mechanics, where you hop right to where you want to be.
I'd say it shows the same problems as people have reported in WoW: when you can hop right into a dungeon and can hang around a waiting area, it causes the rest of the world in WoW to become irrelevant and empty and not feel as a world anymore, but just the equivalent of a lobby game. Instant-travel is one of the ways that has the same effect, causing an MMORPG more to operate like a lobby-game, zapping you right to the event that you liked. There are enough players in WoW who have no problem with that at all, just as there are players who dislike the lobby-game effect of certain features. Personal preferences.
Now, this will of course not be the case with GW2, as there's all kinds of events happening in the world that requires attention of players.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Yea since in GW2 there are events happening everywhere....okay lemme do a scenario :
I am lvl 20 my friend just started playing and is lvl 5 or something..He goes like OMGG dudee look this event boss monster is soo crazyyyy...
So without TP my responce would be:; aw mayn hold up ib there in a second .. get on the mount /walk /fly/flights ..i get there omgg what happend where the big boss "insert boss name here" ....my friend "oh its over we killed it it was awesome.."
and WITh TP my response would be "DUDE I am SOOO THERE " and WA BAMM i am there and have much fun with my friend doing the event...
in the end i prefer TPs in GW2 over flights like they had it in wow...although i wouldnt mind mounts,,just cuz mounts look cool..
yeah, because it would be so bad to travel 2-3 minutes before you arrive at your destination, my god, those are 2-3 minutes that'll NEVER come back
But hey, mate, if that's your thing, hopping around, teleporting all over the world to right at the spot where you want to be, good for you, tastes and preferences differ
. My own preference is otherwise.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well, the fight could be over in the 2-3 minutes before you arrive, and yes, those are 2-3 minutes that never will come back. I certainly would like to actually participate in the event with my friends rather than take 2-3 minutes and walk there. I don't mind taking 2-3 minutes to walk around and explore, but when I have a destination I want to get there as fast as possible and nothing is faster than teleportation.
It is personal preference, just don't bitch and moan if everbody gets mad at you because you take to long.
If the fight is over in 2-3 minutes, then it wasn't that special if all it provided was 2-3 minutes of fun while you're playing 2-3 hours in a session. Besides, GW2 is thus constructed that if you have done one event, you can jump onto the next link in the chain of events, it's hardly ever really 'over', as in a quest that's finished and that you can't do again anymore.
Sorry, but I found the whole example unconvincing as well as unrealistic: bottomline is, you either like instant-teleporting to any spot in the world, or you dislike it. Me, I think it's useful and handy when it's ingame moderately and not overkill. Other people like you think otherwise. That happens with different tastes and all.
Anyway, I've discussed this topic already more than I planned to, so I'm going to leave it at this
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I have a question for everyone that thinks like this, that teleportation = lobby game. So does that mean UO was a lobby based game and not a sandbox world. After all in UO you could teleport everywhere! I find that intriguing that the game most MMO players point to as one of the greatest sandboxes, today would be considered a lobby based game because it gave the option to teleport everywhere.
On another note there is a huge diffrence between WoWs dungeon finder and GW2 waypoint system. In GW2 you still have to explore and find the waypoints, while the dungeon finder will just telport you there, without ever having to find the dungeon.
I look at WoW's system as being isolating. The dungeon finder matches you up with people who aren't even necessarily on your server. There's zero incentive for communication. Just get it done and move on.
I also don't necessarily see teleporting to the dungeon as being a bad thing. If you were on your way to solo quest, you might miss something by skipping past the content, but if you're doing a dungeon then it's a 5 person thing you're committed to. Especially in a game like WoW, where you can do heroic versions of any dungeon, flying all the way back to the starter zones of the expansion just makes people want to go AFK.
GW2 teleportation gets you to the action if you want to get to the action. On one hand, you might miss opportunities by skipping past the content, but it gets you to a different opportunity faster. On the other hand, because of the way the game automentors you down, it's a really unique situation if you think about it. I was going to say that if you're level 10 and the zone has level 1-10 events in it, then it would be nice to be able to get to those level 10 events faster. But when you think about it, that level 5 event you haven't done yet is also a fresh opportunity that's just as good.
I just think it's going to be a good system. If you have friends you want to meet up with, you can get to them faster. If you're with those friends and you decide to do a dungeon, you're there. If you're off in the wilderness and nobody is around and you want to be around strangers, you can port around the map until you find a sizeable group doing events. If you want to try to find those hidden events for explorers by walking around the map, you can do that too. The game is going to be designed so that you're never far away from an event. Teleportation just adds convenience on top of that rich environment.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007