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palas and droods (Hybrid classes)
Sasami
Member Posts: 326
If you are one of those few poor things that haven't played WoW, well here is short explanation to my topic.
In WoW Paladin and Druid are true hybrid classes, they can tank, they can heal and they can DPS even in raid. Other classes can do 2 things. And this brings me back to TOR.
Bioware has announced that Bounty Hunter will be able to tank, DPS and heal in flashpoints. For me this should automaticly mean that all classes can fill all roles, but it seems that it won't be like that. Now for me this is huge injustice and makes certain classes more valuable than others. I would hope that all classes can fill all roles, simply for flexibility of grouping. Anyone else see this as possible problem/annoyance?
{mod edit - edited title of thread}
Comments
First, I see no reason for you to attack people who do not or have not played WoW. I wouldn't be playing the game if a friend didn't let me piggyback on his account. In my opinion the game is ok, but not worth a subscription price.
Second, as far as this thread goes, sorry but from me you get the big Meh. The idea of this kind of system is used to encourage people to play different character types and since this really doesn't affect the game overall, I have no problem with it. Especialy since all the classes will be able to spec into two distinct advanced classes and then further specialize from there. In the end it's all good to me.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Bounty Hunters can spec a healing role? Haven't read / heard about that but might have missed it. Link please
As far as I know they are either tank or dps specced. Just like all classes can pick between two role flavors with their advanced class choice.
The general utility skills of some of the non healer builds might contain a self heal or targetted heal, but you can expect those to be much less powerful compared to the abilities of "dedicated" healer builds.
My brand new bloggity blog.
http://darthhater.com/2011/03/13/pax-east-james-ohlen-interview/
James Ohlen interview.
We wanted to make sure that you get that healer as soon as you want to. We're looking at making the Trooper and Bounty Hunter to be able to spec into a healer. It will probably stay that way until ship, but you never know. We're doing lots of balance changes and modifications as we continue to balance the game and get feedback, which will probably continue until after we launch the game. We probably won't make any big changes like taking a class from being a healer to not being a healer. But yeah, we're always tweaking things.
Not sure I am crazy about the idea of those 2 classes as healers. Bounty hunter standing back spamming heals just does sit to well with me. Same for the trooper. I can see the trooper as dps/tank and the bounty hunter as dpa/aoe/crowd control. I just can't see them as healers.
I can feel your anger. This game is defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike this game down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards towards the Dark Side will be complete.
when you say a druid can tank, dps and heal do you mean they can do all at the same time if soecced correctly?(never played WoW so i have no idea) I ask because with the ways Advanced classes are set up, tanking and healing won't be together in the same AC. the healing tree will be in the mercenary AC and tanking in the power tech. as for dps, i dont know how good the power tech AC will be but that will be the other tree in the mercenary AC
edit: http://pc.ign.com/articles/115/1153371p1.html
IGN: How does the Bounty Hunter compare to the classes available to Republic players? Is there a direct parallel class or does the Bounty Hunter have a style of its own and is there a gimmick for the Bounty Hunter the way there is with the Smuggler's cover system?
Zoeller: The Bounty Hunter's role for the Empire is similar to that of the Trooper on the Republic side. One could say that they are arch enemies. Within the class, the roles are divided as follows : the Mercenary advanced class can take the role of ranged damage dealer or healer [and] the Powertech advanced class can take the role of close range damage dealer or tank. The skill trees for these advanced classes offer various ways of sub-specializing these roles (e.g. burst vs. sustained kind of damage dealing roles, etc.)
I think the major problem here is that perhaps you think they can do all this at the same time?
For example, the consular, smuggler and now trooper all can do a healing role, they can also do a DPS role, and the smuggler and consular seem to have pretty good support and stealth roles too. You can spec your character down each of these roads, but you can't spec them down ALL of these roads. For example, the main DPS role for the smuggler would require you to use dual blasters (for the most part AFAIK) whilst you can go a stealth DPS type with support abilities like stun darts, etc. Or, if you wanted to you could spec a stealth healer with support, or a healer with some DPS abilities, but in the end, you won't be able to do everything, or even remotely close to everything for a single character.
As BioWare has said, you could have two of the very same characters with VERY different abilities, alignments, and story choices.. basically one class with two completely different experienes.
I think each healer has its own set of ways they heal, while the consular looks to be more direct/crit heals, the smuggler is HoT, and as I stated I think we'll see the tank classes being more PBAOE types that have a lot less range. I don't have a problem with this as long as its done well.
I like the idea of being able to have different choices and hybridize if I want to. Thats how I plan to play my smuggler and consular.
Thanks for the link. Yeah, I see your points. For the trooper it's pretty ok I think, the "ranged tank" role doesn't sit so well with me (since you'll be standing toe to toe against many foes anyway). They should give all classes three advanced classes perhaps?
My brand new bloggity blog.
i can see his point.. and bounty hunters as healers does seem a little.. odd... but given how few professions are in the game, i think its probably inevitable.. unless some of the other classes can heal, then there would be an inevitable requirement for any Jedi in a group to be specc'd for healing.. and as not everyone wants to be a Jedi.. then. it would mean that unless you were a Jedi specc'd in healing you wouldnt be any use in a group.. which imo is why healing will be spread out through the classes, its a 'balancing' issue only.. and.. the solution is logical imo, so Bounty Hunters can heal.. worse things can happen i guess....
There will be 4 out of 8 classes that can be a tank. There will be 6 out of 8 classes that can be a healer. And all classes can be a DPS class. Now this looks like a bunch of hybrid classes, but it is not that simple. At level 10 you have to make an Advanced class choice. This will limit what your class will be able to do after the choice. And you will not be able to re-spec your Advanced Class choice. The choice will be permanent. You can re-spec your 3 skill trees within your AC, but not your AC.
So this is more of a break down with how your Advanced Class choice will decrease the hybrid chance. Again, no changing your AC.
Jedi Knight
Guardian: Tank/DPS
Sentinel: Melee DPS
Jedi Consular:
Shadow: Stealth/Melee DPS
Sage: Healing/CC/Ranged DPS
Smuggler:
Gunslinger: Ranged DPS
Scoundrel: Stealth/Healing/Ranged DPS
Trooper: (Which AC has Healing is unknow, but they are working on it)
Commando: Ranged DPS/(Healing?)
Vanguard: Tank//DPS/(Healing?)
Stih Warrior:
Juggernaut: Tank/DPS
Marauder: Melee DPS
Sith Inquisitor:
Sorcerer: Ranged DPS/Healer
Assassin: Stealth/Melee DPS
Bounty Hunter:
Powertech: Tank/DPS
Mercenary: Ranged DPS/Healing
Imperial Agent:
Operative: Ranged DPS/Healer
Sniper: Ranged DPS
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
Thanks for clarifying it a little. I wonder how much overpowered Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight will be in pvp to not get any healing. Nah, probably they just want to compensate for their potential popularity due to them being such iconic classes.
It's quite a balancing act
My brand new bloggity blog.
pvp isnt 1 v 1 so it shouldnt be a problem, as its group dynamics that will determine who wins or loses, which is probably.. imo at least.. why those 2 particular ones can't heal themselves..
The only poor thing here is yourself; No annoyance because everyone has a choice and there is more utility to the classes than you have outlined here as well as companion support.
So for the poor soul who obviously has not read up on SWTOR before posting I suggest you do. Bioware are developing something with a little more depth than the paint by numbers game yoiu use as an example.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I believe they said all classes can res other players and heal themselves out of combat. And there are always stem packs for healing during combat for the two warrior classes. So they are not out of luck in PvP.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
yep this is correct
{mod edit}
Anyway I have done my research, TOR is top spot of MMO I will play next. Many people have said that ACs are gonna narrow route to 2, which is good decision. However been able to reset AC is gonna be biggest cry point on release and I think Bioware will allow it pretty fast (lets face it casual players are getting more and more crybabies nowdays). I know that alts are gonna be big point of game also, but I usually fell love with the first character that I max and so does many people. Now since I been always either healer or tank and I love both roles. So I'm not thinking I can do all on same time but if I choose Trooper I can fill all roles without rolling yet another character. Giving that change to all classes would make game better, it's the way that MMOs are slowly moving.
Thanks for artemisentr4 by making great table of classes, I'm gonna few modifications to match more common raid role system, basicly you have 4 roles: tank, dps, cc and healer. Most games DPS and CC are same since pure CC or DPS is bit too boring(It's pretty fair to assume Bioware is following this route after seeing PAX demos, especially on developer demo they used CC nicely). I'm also removing ranged vs melee thing since it's poor design if you need to choose which you need for boss(pointing Blizzard):
Jedi Knight
Guardian: Tank
Sentinel: DPS
Jedi Consular:
Shadow: DPS
Sage: Healing/DPS
Smuggler:
Gunslinger: DPS
Scoundrel: Healing/DPS
Trooper: (Which AC has Healing is unknow, but they are working on it)
Commando: DPS/(Healing?)
Vanguard: Tank/(Healing?)
Stih Warrior:
Juggernaut: Tank
Marauder: DPS
Sith Inquisitor:
Sorcerer: Healer
Assassin: DPS
Bounty Hunter: (Healing AC unknown, working on it)
Powertech: Tank/(Healing?)
Mercenary: DPS/(Healing?)
Imperial Agent:
Operative: DPS/Healer
Sniper: DPS
Personally I will go to Trooper since it offers all the stuff for HC raiding(and I'm sucker for heavy armor) and if(or should I say when) Bioware allows AC respecc it will be the prettiest cake. I'm still having small hope that classes like Smuggler could be used as tank using cover system. How awesome would it be if you could tank behind cover and you would need to move ones it starts to crumble or ask other tank to take over while you go next spot. Possibilities, possibilities.
Actually this was one of the greatest small points I found in PAX demo, having res on all classes: FINALLY! Aren't stem packs more like healing pots, all can use them? I think all classes have some heal for themself in combat also, but it has high timer. Out of combat healing is also nice, hope people learn to use them also(again pointing WoW where no-one bothers healing themself when healer is drinking mana, seriously people #%&#.)
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I was thinking of playing a Trooper specifically because it was a ranged tank. The Trooper reminds me a lot of the Soldier Class on AO (A ranged DPS/Tank class.), which was totally my class back in the day.
If Troopers have Reflective Shields, then awww yeeee, Gonna maul some Tusken Raiders.
Groovy.
I'm a healer in every MMO (whether I want to or not in most cases) So Inquisitor 100% healing will be for me via the AC.
I'm just hoping that it doesn't get too boring, too fast. One major complaint I had in WoW was literally standing there, pressing heal and repeating (which they thankfully changed a bit with better, more "free moving" fights) Judging by the PAX gameplay vids though, it seems a bit on the "stand still and range" side of things.
We'll see anyway, I'll still be buying it regardless
# SW:TOR : Tylantia, Sivis, Aeonis, Aehris, Xaehrin, Vhyce, Tehren, Suvis
# Ryzom : Kasumi / Secor / Anuihlm
# City of Heroes/Villains : @Tylantia
# Age of Empires Online : Tylantia (Abydos server)
# Stargate Worlds : Kadael
# WoW : Tylantia, Siinaar, Sivis, Moofangles, Aehr, Cehr, Chaizen, Ocep, Tzias
In PAX demos even bosses did only about 25% dmg to tank per hit compared to WoWs silly 75% dmg hits. Standard mobs even less. This would mean you have just throw HoT on tank and try do DPS or CC. I think most people who got play in PAX where overwhelmed by skills so we didn't see true nature of combat. Even in developer video healer had slack time that could have used to dmg since you don't need to worry tank to be dead in seconds, I hated that in WoW.
Super! Now I worry about stats, specifically accuracy and such. Do we know of/have seen much regarding that?
As I wouldn't want to spec my AC for heal, yet in order to have fun and DPS (where healing doesn't appear necessary) only to find I can't hit anything
As long as I have something useful to do other than 1 button spam heal, I'll be happy.
# SW:TOR : Tylantia, Sivis, Aeonis, Aehris, Xaehrin, Vhyce, Tehren, Suvis
# Ryzom : Kasumi / Secor / Anuihlm
# City of Heroes/Villains : @Tylantia
# Age of Empires Online : Tylantia (Abydos server)
# Stargate Worlds : Kadael
# WoW : Tylantia, Siinaar, Sivis, Moofangles, Aehr, Cehr, Chaizen, Ocep, Tzias
heres a pic of a trooper character sheet from pax east:
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy252/JeosDinas/PAXEastTrooperSheet.jpg
strength, aim, endurance im betting are melee, range and vit
not sure about cunning and willpower
presence has been said to be related to healing and companions because awhile back bioware mentioned healer's companions would be more powerful and part of that was because of the investment into the presence stat. ill see if i can find where i saw that. think it came out of the jedi immersion day or EA london event when they showed off warzones and crew skills.
Edit: found an interview with geog zoeller where he mentions it
http://www.torocast.com/index.php/news/item/407-torocast-interview-lead-combat-designer-georg-zoeller
TOROcast: Early in development, BioWare said that they were doing something unique and special with healing. What is happening that is different compared to a typical MMO design?
Georg Zoeller: In Star Wars: The Old Republic, improving your character’s Presence attribute, which governs healing ability, also improves the character’s active companion in various ways. Coupled with the ability to adjust companion behavior and equipment, this enables the player to function as a healer; even in solo situations.
I dont understand why Bounty Hunter as healer seems so odd or wrong to so many people. They are not Head Hunters, they are Bounty Hunters, they do jobs for the cash, even in SW movies Boba escorts the frozen Han carb block, a job that does not have any specific target to hunt. Healing is the same, if you have the tech, and someone is willing to pay, why not heal?
I mean, in principle there is absolutely nothing wrong with this picture.
As OP my problem isn't that Bounty Hunter can heal, quite opposite I want MMO where class can fill all roles. And this is the problem, classes should have consistency on roles. Small quote from James Ohlen:
We made sure that they're all PvP viable because obviously you don't want to pick a class or an Advanced Class and then not be able to engage in PvP or in any of our raids or Flashpoints. You need to be able to play the character you chose in any of the game play situations.
http://darthhater.com/2011/03/13/pax-east-james-ohlen-interview/page/2
I really don't want end up situation in guild where there is too many tanks/healers and too few healers/tanks, and I would have change to respecc to different role but I can't due class limit. Also there is nice, rather politican answer to AC respecc issue. So is glass half full or half empty?
I can't picture boba running around as a medic. It just does not work for me in my mind but maybe it will be ok when I play the game. only time will tell. Maybe he will have a healing dart in his wrist band right next to the poison one and every one better hope he presses the right button. : )
As far as the movie he was on a bounty not an escort mission he was just forced by Vader to wait on collecting Han because Vader wanted Han for bait. Other wise Vader would have force choked him and then shown up at Jabbas house with a few thousand storm troopers.
I can feel your anger. This game is defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike this game down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards towards the Dark Side will be complete.
Right, you're right about the movie, it's been a while since I saw those movies
However it does not change the fact that Boba can choose to use medical tech if he chooses it, and I see where you are coming with "cant imagine Boba running around healing folks" since I cant either, however that's because of his reputation, I can imagine perfectly fine some Fingo Fatt played by guy X to heal someone as a merc, if he has the tech and is up for it.
There's nothing wrong with the concept. Afterall, Bounty Hunter is nothing more or less than a Merc at the end of the day, with fancy gear and good training. I find the "BH shouldnt be healer" on TOR forums as silly as the comments about Smuggler healing "WTF HAN NEVER USED MED TECH IN THE MOVIES WTF!? HOW CAN U JUSTIFICE SMUGGLER HEALIN???" wait what, sure Han was more like Gunslinger smuggler from TOR, but all Smugglers were cloned from Han before he was born and every one of them should act like him? Okay...
I guess I just dont like to box characters and their abilities into such narrow roles based on "class names" they are given.