I wouldnt say the games are dumbing down. I would say more Accessable. I think that people should be given the chance to the feel of the game. If the game is too hard then people will lose interest. I do believe that endgame should be challenging. If you want a game with a steep learning curve then Eve online is the game for you.
MMOs aren't getting easier, just more convenient. Old ass cars had manual locks and windows. Do innovations leading to power locks and windows equate to "dumbing down" the auto?
Yes, in a sense. Old cars had mechanical drum brakes, they didn't stop as quickly as modern cars so drivers had to pay closer attention to road conditions, traffic, and other potential hazards. Drivers had to go slower, they allowed others to go whom may or may not have had the right-of-way because it was easier for them to slow down or stop than the other guy. They were more courteous on the roads.
Modern 'convenience' in autos has allowed people to zip around much faster than in previous decades. People are much less willing to wait for a slowpoke to go by so they just mash their gas pedals and dive in front. People stop shorter because they have ABS and disk brakes and can't be bothered to actually pay attention anymore to whats around them. Road rage didn't exist 40 years ago, and it barely existed 20 years ago.
Early autos came from the dealer with tool chests for fixing and maintaining your new vehicle people were expected to be able to take reasonable care of their vehicle and keep it in working order. Most new cars produced today have "no user serviceable parts inside". Older autos were in some ways more difficult machines to live with, but the corollary to that was the drivers were much better users. Your'e average driver today can't properly change their own flat tires.
See where I'm going with this? My analogies relate to autos and drivers primarily, but let's face it, players are the primary element in MMorpgs after all.
Yes, in a sense. Old cars had mechanical drum brakes, they didn't stop as quickly as modern cars so drivers had to pay closer attention to road conditions, traffic, and other potential hazards. Drivers had to go slower, they allowed others to go whom may or may not have had the right-of-way because it was easier for them to slow down or stop than the other guy. They were more courteous on the roads.
Modern 'convenience' in autos has allowed people to zip around much faster than in previous decades. People are much less willing to wait for a slowpoke to go by so they just mash their gas pedals and dive in front. People stop shorter because they have ABS and disk brakes and can't be bothered to actually pay attention anymore to whats around them. Road rage didn't exist 40 years ago, and it barely existed 20 years ago.
Early autos came from the dealer with tool chests for fixing and maintaining your new vehicle people were expected to be able to take reasonable care of their vehicle and keep it in working order. Most new cars produced today have "no user serviceable parts inside". Older autos were in some ways more difficult machines to live with, but the corollary to that was the drivers were much better users. Your'e average driver today can't properly change their own flat tires.
See where I'm going with this? My analogies relate to autos and drivers primarily, but let's face it, players are the primary element in MMorpgs after all.
Even though I have read countless analogies on this site, that was probably the best one I've had the pleasure to come across. Thanks for sharing, Dnomsed.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
People are dumbing down. We have a small finite little life in a vast sea of billions of humans. if we don't ever kill an entire group of people or save someone from a burning fire in real life, no one would ever knew some of us existed. So when games are a chosen hobby or pastime, we tend to want instant gratification.
You see people crying for something thats not a wow clone but tolerate playing one until something "next-gen" comes along. and if it makes them work to hard to attain what they want?, they go to the game that gave them that gratification. thats why the rise of the sandbox game never has taken hold. they require people to make their own items/weapons or homes. you have to work at it because players shape the world. many people are satisfied with having a linear type progression because unlike the real world, they know what they're gonna get. And game company's are always trying to make a better mouse trap. in this case they want to make it more accessible for people that want everything handed to them or want to avoid having to work to hard for it.
As for the future of MMO gaming? well I don't see it changing until people start getting tired of having it handed to them with minimal work. Until gamers get tired of it, game company's wont change a winning formula.
I don't have all the answers just my small little opinion.
I would like to see more developers make the game harder as more people join it to keep it at a good balance but of course this is not going to happen because they want money instead. Only a niche game would have any chance of doing that.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
So having 1000 people on a server for absolutley no reason, where all rewards come from NPC's for being their slaves. To succeed or even progress you must be completely dependent on NPC's. The only thing you get from your fellow gamer is help beating a hard boss. If you group for anything else your penalized for it (cause grouping is faster) Anything esle like crafting and economy is being removed . We can barely trade, sell or barter anything. what we can is done on the AH. Its the darn farmers fault they say. We spend all our time interacting with NPC's. NpC's are our masters. And we call this an MMO, and pay extra for it?
The prefered playstyle is solo. . Massive multiplayer makes the actual game suck worse because people are in the way. They make instances for us so others cant bother. They have dungeon finder tools so we can get the rewards without actually interacting with others. And we call this an MMO and pay extra for it?
we finially get to a point were we can pvp, but its now been moved to instances as well. the very sight of it hurts i guess. And the only point is more gear from more npc's. People dont even fight, they just stand there because they get rewarded for that from NPCs.
And yet we pay extra because it's an MMO.
Dont get me wrong they're fantastic games. Amazing even. But they're not MMORPG's. MMO's arent getting dumbed down, the gimicks are being removed. In mmo's other people dont make the game suck. If they can get extra money for the gimmicks more power to them. People arent retarded so the game must be made for retards. People are getting smarter.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
WoW is a great example of mmo's being dumbed down. It's been watered-down to the point the game itself tells you what buttons to press and when. Players have no options to choose anything. The "sticky-fingered devs" have made sure of this.
WoW is a great example of mmo's being dumbed down. It's been watered-down to the point the game itself tells you what buttons to press and when. Players have no options to choose anything. The "sticky-fingered devs" have made sure of this.
And this is supposedly the main game in mmo's?
Yeah, I agree. This probably is one of the main reasons I unsubbed back in Sept '10; and currently not playing anything. I tried a 21day trial of EvE Online back in summer of 2009; nice game, good graphics, but I didn't really like it. Space based games not really my forte I guess. Tried EQ2, played a few of the Rift closed and the open Beta's, but those were too much like WoW. EQ2 had a wonderful community, and the guild halls were so awesome, but the massive lag, and annoying memory leaks got to be too much.
Now I just read the other day they're taking out the hunter pet happiness/loyalty thing for hunters. So first the ammo pouch/quiver gets taken out, then ammunition altogether (I guess too many huntards QQ'ing about getting booted from PuG's for forgetting to stock up on ammo before a raid?), and now this. Can they possible make hunters any more faceroll than they already are?? Lawl.
We aren't talking about the automotive industry we are talking about gaming. At least when I referenced walmart it was in direct connection to related examples. Why don't you go ahead and answer his questions in a thought out way, and I will see what you mean. A couple lines of text about cars is not a good argument for or against the dumbing down of games.
Edit: Also if you think that power windows don't make rolling windows down any easier you have obviously never owned an older car.
Is grinding (for levels or gear, i.e. raids) becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?
If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead?
Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time?
Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still?
Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction?
Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?
Is grinding (for levels or gear, i.e. raids) becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?
If by grinding you mean farming same dungeons over and over and same daily quests to raise reputation yes ofc.
If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead?
Pretty much yes. Seems developers targetting audience nowdays in mmorpg's are ppl that want to play something quick and easy (sadly for the rest of us)
Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time?
Ofc. For me at least i have no intrest to play something that is suitable foor 8 years old kids.
Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still?
For me it's an excellent way for ppl to climb their social position in a medieval fabntasy society of an mmorpg ..BUT NOT IN THE WAY IT'S IMPLEMENTED right now in the mmorpg's we play. Not by farming same stupid daily quests and same dungeons ovver and over. Im expecting cretivity and real rewatds that matters (claim titles and holdship of a castle ,or have the right to raise small armies of npc's etc etc as rewards for high ranks in a complicated rep system for example and many other things
Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction?
They are cuttered /dumbed down as well..No resemblance of any kind or similarity to a supposed medial societies anbd activities simulated.
Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?
An ok person is an ok person in a game as well. There will always be idiots doing things like ninja items if they can, some things can be prevented by companies some not. DDO FOUND THE SOLUTION TO THAT THOUGH ,evry time u kill a boss either in 5 men dungeon or raid u open the chest and every player gets 2-3 random items reward from the chest so everyone is happy and no way other player can take those items if the player wants them.
edit: they are the only games that ever brought Player interaction to a field where others dont mimic much anymore
Took the words right off my mind , the awnsers for your questions. EVE-online is far from being dumbed down. The main reason people don't play it is because it's not dumb and dumber friendly. Real men and women play EVE-Online. It's where the action is , after playing 6 years , I've lost some and won some , but where the game really shines is in PvP coop or any sort of coop for that matter. Some friends I've been with on my 1st year of playing had become ennemies and then friends again. I don't get the same adrenaline and anxiety and FUN for that matter outside of EVE. All other MMO's are easy , no one wants to party ,can do pretty much anything by yourself which puts in question the term MMORPG for that perticular game , or should I say 99% of the games listed on this site.
Yes games have become dumbed down , to a level where people only care about gearing their character and complain about having to P2P but put the same ammount of money per month if not more on a F2P game? Which is interesting , a whole new meaning of "shooting yourself in the foot."
P.S.: I'm pretty positive that members of CCP are in fact Santa's little helpers
I do not think MMOs are being "dumbed down" at all.
There is a huge difference between being "dumbed down" and providing greater choice and accessibility.
The fact that modern MMOs have different server types for PvP, PvE etc. and scaling difficulty choices (heroics, hard modes, competitive or "casual" PvP ladders) and such create a system where content is delivered on more of a "choose your own adventure" type of system is a good thing.
I guess there is no choice but to use WoW as an example (as it is the most easily comparable point of referene for most)
We now have greater emphasis on story and plot growth via questing, in game cinematics, and the use of phasing technology and instancing. Bioware is taking this a step further with TOR to provide true character interaction and growth.
One of Blizzards primary tennants has always been to provide ease of access, simplicity on the surface, with depth and complexity beneath the layers for those who seek it.
The very fact that sites like Elitist Jerks and such exist, the whole Theory-crafting community, shows undeniable proof of the deepr complexity and depth in a title that is extremely simple on the surface.
One thing we DO have to remember though, even games like WoW really aren't that simple in comparison to many other games in other genres.
Even looked at the full interface of a level 85 raider or competitive Arena / rated BG PvP'er?
Could you imagine walking into that game with that interface without prior knowledge or experience? "Simple" the absolutely last thing I'd describe it as.
On the contrary, I could walk into ANY FPS game or action RPG or RTS and pick it up fairly quickly.
I am a huge, huge fan of old-school UO - but that game was so incredibly simple in comparison to modern MMOs. The real difference is there was no direction nor guidance in UO - you just kind of had to figure things out. On the same token though the game was far LESS complex.
Can you even imagine having NO experience what so ever with MMOs or with a game like WoW or Rift specifically, being handed a geared out level 85/50 character and being thrown into a dungeon? It'd be a disaster.
edit: they are the only games that ever brought Player interaction to a field where others dont mimic much anymore
Took the words right off my mind , the awnsers for your questions.
Word.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Middle Man wasn't a class, but a player driven choice, and if you did it your rep was based on your actions. In games now if you piss to many people off you can get a race change, a name change, and a faction change and start over so it is GONE. Rep doesn't matter anymore.
I remember in Asheron's Call magical items you found you couldn't use until you identified it. So I parked my little alt, Tickle, near a dungeon hub city and offered my services in identifying things. Eventually I got a nice reputation for being able to ID things but also for not stealing anything. The great thing about it was that people would tip me for my services. I ended up making more money and meeting more friends by being an IDer than I did exploring or adventuring. Also got to keep quite a few things too people didn't want.
Yup. Awesome quality about older MMOs and players for that matter. Sure, you would get dicked over once in a while, but I remember in UO you could walk over to the forge/blacksmith and see GM crafters offering their services. Good times...
yes all mmos are being dumbed down..its the wow factor ..they had soo many new and younger people join that its what the devs focus on..the whole genra of old style mmos is far gone..no devs will spend the money on a project / sandbox when they can put all that money into a copy paste project like rift <for example> ...the days of playing the great sandboxs like uo "old style' eq and ashersons call are far gone ..sure you might see a sandbox popup here and there..but it will always fail because theres A. just not enuff people to p2p and bring a profit B. the devs are soo used to makeing theamparks and makeing big $$$$ every 6 months ..why would they..and for all those fan boies waiting and holding their breath for GW2 ..well umm sry this maybe a huge shocker..but im sure it will be more of the same..the whole genra has changed and so should the community ..i hate it but it is what it has become..an utter disgrace and being dumbed down for the masses...its all about the mighty dollar do you really think these big companys care what you / we think....< here is your product now play it > cause its all your gonna get..its the new stage of the ugly butterfly effect
yes all mmos are being dumbed down..its the wow factor ..they had soo many new and younger people join that its what the devs focus on..the whole genra of old style mmos is far gone..no devs will spend the money on a project / sandbox when they can put all that money into a copy paste project like rift ...the days of playing the great sandboxs like uo "old style' eq and ashersons call are far gone ..sure you might see a sandbox popup here and there..but it will always fail because theres A. just not enuff people to p2p and bring a profit B. the devs are soo used to makeing theamparks and makeing big $$$$ every 6 months ..why would they..and for all those fan boies waiting and holding their breath for GW2 ..well umm sry this maybe a huge shocker..but im sure it will be more of the same..the whole genra has changed and so should the community ..i hate it but it is what it has become..an utter disgrace and being dumbed down for the masses...its all about the mighty dollar do you really think these big companys care what you / we think....< here is your product now play it > cause its all your gonna get..its the new stage of the ugly butterfly effect
I don't think I could've said it any better! Theme park MMO's are going to be the death of an entire gaming genre. How WoW or any other theme park MMO holds peoples attention for more than a few months is beyond me.
edit: they are the only games that ever brought Player interaction to a field where others dont mimic much anymore
Took the words right off my mind , the awnsers for your questions. EVE-online is far from being dumbed down. The main reason people don't play it is because it's not dumb and dumber friendly. Real men and women play EVE-Online. It's where the action is , after playing 6 years , I've lost some and won some , but where the game really shines is in PvP coop or any sort of coop for that matter. Some friends I've been with on my 1st year of playing had become ennemies and then friends again. I don't get the same adrenaline and anxiety and FUN for that matter outside of EVE. All other MMO's are easy , no one wants to party ,can do pretty much anything by yourself which puts in question the term MMORPG for that perticular game , or should I say 99% of the games listed on this site.
Yes games have become dumbed down , to a level where people only care about gearing their character and complain about having to P2P but put the same ammount of money per month if not more on a F2P game? Which is interesting , a whole new meaning of "shooting yourself in the foot."
P.S.: I'm pretty positive that members of CCP are in fact Santa's little helpers
While I don't think that EVE is a 'dumb' game, it certainly could do a lot to 'smarten up'. Unfortunately the game prefers to cater to the lowest common denominator and is stuck in its niche.
Like i said before, games need to be accessable. Not hard as hell to where you need to power up a wiki pedia just to find out where to go and where to get a quest. Im a strong beliver in hot keys in favor of inputing macros that most of the time dont work properly.
A few factors in my opinion have contributed to this perception turned reality.
Game Dev's designing to cross platform their games. To make a game for console the game must be able to function effectively with a controller.
Cost of Development They attempt to keep costs down by getting the product out quickly. Therefore simple is better and less problematic.
Since most MMO's are played on PC's , attempting to make the game run on as many PC's as possible as well as 3 operating systems. ( XP, Vista , Win 7 ) Some inherent complications slip in there, then piling on consoles OS .
Some could argue generational attitudes , I'm inclined to say it's more age related . In that PC's are more widespread ,and more have access to them . Hence the maturity level of the average player has dropped significantly and the patience.
Instance gratification. I think consoles have made players more inclined to get things done quickly and the expectation has followed suit.
Heavy instancing due to system limitations as well. I suspect this is more due to Dev's want their games on Consoles.
I don't think one can overstate the effect that console gaming has had on the industry good and bad . I don't blame console players , I just believe they've been condition to expect certain things and play in certain manners and to attract these players , MMO's have had to adapt. I think the days of 75 , 40 or even 20 man raids are fading fast . The idea most prevailant is to be able to put together a quick group ( usually 5 to 10 man ) and blow through the content . Mainly because people aren't conditioned to play like this nor are they prepared to be patient enough to deal with failure. After all the MMO , is a business and if you can keep a lot of people happy all at once you'll make more money. In the end that's all that matters.
To be honest, I do think things were removed from many MMOs that may have not been necessarily in good function, but because even thought they were not too difficult, they were incredibly stupid to exist in the first place. The hunter's ammo and pet items were an inventory tax, it's like making someone keep track of food or mundane arrows in Dungeons and Dragons. Tons of games have convolution and bad mechanics we all accept as commonplace because they may bring good function with them. Class/level systems provide gateways and pacing to content and balance between characters and help define needs and roles for players to fill, but skill build systems allow players to choose their own characters and activities by the piece for everything and may not have as much of a content gateway.
Fast Travel, auction Houses, mailboxes and teleports shrink the world but often provide money sinks to some degree. Fast travel and teleportation removes tedium out of much more expansive areas and links cities together so players who call different zones across the world home can still group without much difficulty.
Auction Houses added in much needed functionality of allowing game economies to form a good reasonable medium and allow quick access to essential trade items when interaction would be little more than "hello, gold in window, click accept, okay thanks later." across the span of a minute after a 5+ minute travel for some games. People STILL sell items over global and trade channels, and in fact for many games such channels were so overcrowded , even if vendor options could be added to many games the time it would take to locate one needs outside of a hub listing system would be just as bad. (like EVE online has)
Mailboxes just allow long distance quick sending of the aforementioned trade window sales and allows people the ability to set up such sales to people offline which really *is* just a pure improvement, like private message windows over any distance from the days of just say and having to use ICQ like in the days of UO.
Games will always change, and there are certainly plenty of games out there in MMOs with what can be viewed as regressive design and plenty upcoming with new ideas and themes to MMO worlds, but dumbed down is quite a ridiculous phrase to use when once long ago many mechanics were secretive and convoluted. Wikis, game guides and in game helpbots prospered because of this but for some games it was just out of hand. World of Warcraft has become far more streamlined and fast paced than it once was, but this is more because of mechanic based reinforcement being added into the game rather than regressive design. Gearscore, simplified stats, better quest pointers, more hubbing is good on a game that really never prided itself on being a very complicated game, but rather a very polished one where players should be able to understand what they see at first glance down to "complicated" mechanics.
Tabletop role playing games were full of caveats, "gotchas!" mechanical imbalance and plagued by Adversarial GMing advice from others to continue a bad cycle for years and years. 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons compared to 3rd edition and 2nd is MUCH more "Simple" and shouted as "WoW-ified" and dumbed down by many that dislike the system, but it fixed man of the issues like convoluted mechanics based on tradition and power imbalance based on terrible novels, characters, dated campaign settings and catch all magic systems, without tons of useless character abilities and brought a much stronger focus on mechanic balance over preserving the traditional fighting-man v wizard problem. (or class traps entirely)
New and old MMOs all have their issues, some from convolution to some actually being too easy or too bland and lacking eye catching game making thematics and mechanics
A few factors in my opinion have contributed to this perception turned reality.
Game Dev's designing to cross platform their games. To make a game for console the game must be able to function effectively with a controller.
Cost of Development They attempt to keep costs down by getting the product out quickly. Therefore simple is better and less problematic.
Since most MMO's are played on PC's , attempting to make the game run on as many PC's as possible as well as 3 operating systems. ( XP, Vista , Win 7 ) Some inherent complications slip in there, then piling on consoles OS .
Some could argue generational attitudes , I'm inclined to say it's more age related . In that PC's are more widespread ,and more have access to them . Hence the maturity level of the average player has dropped significantly and the patience.
Instance gratification. I think consoles have made players more inclined to get things done quickly and the expectation has followed suit.
Heavy instancing due to system limitations as well. I suspect this is more due to Dev's want their games on Consoles.
I don't think one can overstate the effect that console gaming has had on the industry good and bad . I don't blame console players , I just believe they've been condition to expect certain things and play in certain manners and to attract these players , MMO's have had to adapt. I think the days of 75 , 40 or even 20 man raids are fading fast . The idea most prevailant is to be able to put together a quick group ( usually 5 to 10 man ) and blow through the content . Mainly because people aren't conditioned to play like this nor are they prepared to be patient enough to deal with failure. After all the MMO , is a business and if you can keep a lot of people happy all at once you'll make more money. In the end that's all that matters.
Duely noted and well said. I really dont think that console gaming has had an effect on mmos with the exception of Call of Duty series if you really want to call that a mmo. The only real mmo that was out there was FF11. I heard rumor of xbox live was the reason that mmos were being cancelled on 360. I read that 360 isnt in the market for mmorgpg and how 11 made it on the console is beyond me. Im glad it did, it was my first true taste of mmorpgs. True 75 40 and 20 man instances are gone. ( besieged for example 360 could not handle besieged and would freeze,) . WIth the sucess of dcuo expect to see alot of games being released to the ps3 wich i beilieve would be a good thing. It will expand the audience.
Comments
I wouldnt say the games are dumbing down. I would say more Accessable. I think that people should be given the chance to the feel of the game. If the game is too hard then people will lose interest. I do believe that endgame should be challenging. If you want a game with a steep learning curve then Eve online is the game for you.
Edgar F Greenwood
Yes, in a sense. Old cars had mechanical drum brakes, they didn't stop as quickly as modern cars so drivers had to pay closer attention to road conditions, traffic, and other potential hazards. Drivers had to go slower, they allowed others to go whom may or may not have had the right-of-way because it was easier for them to slow down or stop than the other guy. They were more courteous on the roads.
Modern 'convenience' in autos has allowed people to zip around much faster than in previous decades. People are much less willing to wait for a slowpoke to go by so they just mash their gas pedals and dive in front. People stop shorter because they have ABS and disk brakes and can't be bothered to actually pay attention anymore to whats around them. Road rage didn't exist 40 years ago, and it barely existed 20 years ago.
Early autos came from the dealer with tool chests for fixing and maintaining your new vehicle people were expected to be able to take reasonable care of their vehicle and keep it in working order. Most new cars produced today have "no user serviceable parts inside". Older autos were in some ways more difficult machines to live with, but the corollary to that was the drivers were much better users. Your'e average driver today can't properly change their own flat tires.
See where I'm going with this? My analogies relate to autos and drivers primarily, but let's face it, players are the primary element in MMorpgs after all.
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
Even though I have read countless analogies on this site, that was probably the best one I've had the pleasure to come across. Thanks for sharing, Dnomsed.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
People are dumbing down. We have a small finite little life in a vast sea of billions of humans. if we don't ever kill an entire group of people or save someone from a burning fire in real life, no one would ever knew some of us existed. So when games are a chosen hobby or pastime, we tend to want instant gratification.
You see people crying for something thats not a wow clone but tolerate playing one until something "next-gen" comes along. and if it makes them work to hard to attain what they want?, they go to the game that gave them that gratification. thats why the rise of the sandbox game never has taken hold. they require people to make their own items/weapons or homes. you have to work at it because players shape the world. many people are satisfied with having a linear type progression because unlike the real world, they know what they're gonna get. And game company's are always trying to make a better mouse trap. in this case they want to make it more accessible for people that want everything handed to them or want to avoid having to work to hard for it.
As for the future of MMO gaming? well I don't see it changing until people start getting tired of having it handed to them with minimal work. Until gamers get tired of it, game company's wont change a winning formula.
I don't have all the answers just my small little opinion.
Yeah : /
They are all being dumbed-down.
I would like to see more developers make the game harder as more people join it to keep it at a good balance but of course this is not going to happen because they want money instead. Only a niche game would have any chance of doing that.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
So having 1000 people on a server for absolutley no reason, where all rewards come from NPC's for being their slaves. To succeed or even progress you must be completely dependent on NPC's. The only thing you get from your fellow gamer is help beating a hard boss. If you group for anything else your penalized for it (cause grouping is faster) Anything esle like crafting and economy is being removed . We can barely trade, sell or barter anything. what we can is done on the AH. Its the darn farmers fault they say. We spend all our time interacting with NPC's. NpC's are our masters. And we call this an MMO, and pay extra for it?
The prefered playstyle is solo. . Massive multiplayer makes the actual game suck worse because people are in the way. They make instances for us so others cant bother. They have dungeon finder tools so we can get the rewards without actually interacting with others. And we call this an MMO and pay extra for it?
we finially get to a point were we can pvp, but its now been moved to instances as well. the very sight of it hurts i guess. And the only point is more gear from more npc's. People dont even fight, they just stand there because they get rewarded for that from NPCs.
And yet we pay extra because it's an MMO.
Dont get me wrong they're fantastic games. Amazing even. But they're not MMORPG's. MMO's arent getting dumbed down, the gimicks are being removed. In mmo's other people dont make the game suck. If they can get extra money for the gimmicks more power to them. People arent retarded so the game must be made for retards. People are getting smarter.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
WoW is a great example of mmo's being dumbed down. It's been watered-down to the point the game itself tells you what buttons to press and when. Players have no options to choose anything. The "sticky-fingered devs" have made sure of this.
And this is supposedly the main game in mmo's?
Yeah, I agree. This probably is one of the main reasons I unsubbed back in Sept '10; and currently not playing anything. I tried a 21day trial of EvE Online back in summer of 2009; nice game, good graphics, but I didn't really like it. Space based games not really my forte I guess. Tried EQ2, played a few of the Rift closed and the open Beta's, but those were too much like WoW. EQ2 had a wonderful community, and the guild halls were so awesome, but the massive lag, and annoying memory leaks got to be too much.
Now I just read the other day they're taking out the hunter pet happiness/loyalty thing for hunters. So first the ammo pouch/quiver gets taken out, then ammunition altogether (I guess too many huntards QQ'ing about getting booted from PuG's for forgetting to stock up on ammo before a raid?), and now this. Can they possible make hunters any more faceroll than they already are?? Lawl.
Wow nice argument. /facepalm
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
It is not only in MMORPG things get dumbed down , I notice that in singleplayer games too .
Yes been playing only WoW for 5 years , aside from couple short singleplayer games in between .
But Lately it seems a lot of games simply are made with short , very short gameplay in mind .
Focus are graphics over everything , 30 hour gameplay MAX . A decent story script (but nothing great , nothing poor)
And TONS OF ACHIEVEMENTS >.< and a ULTRA HARDCORE mode for replay .
I guess maybe they gamer generation taken a step back , and thus leading to our unsatisfaction with MMO itself.
I'll just cut to the chase and say that I'm glad there are still a few games where there is still some element of challenge and danger.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Is grinding (for levels or gear, i.e. raids) becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?
If by grinding you mean farming same dungeons over and over and same daily quests to raise reputation yes ofc.
If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead?
Pretty much yes. Seems developers targetting audience nowdays in mmorpg's are ppl that want to play something quick and easy (sadly for the rest of us)
Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time?
Ofc. For me at least i have no intrest to play something that is suitable foor 8 years old kids.
Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still?
For me it's an excellent way for ppl to climb their social position in a medieval fabntasy society of an mmorpg ..BUT NOT IN THE WAY IT'S IMPLEMENTED right now in the mmorpg's we play. Not by farming same stupid daily quests and same dungeons ovver and over. Im expecting cretivity and real rewatds that matters (claim titles and holdship of a castle ,or have the right to raise small armies of npc's etc etc as rewards for high ranks in a complicated rep system for example and many other things
Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction?
They are cuttered /dumbed down as well..No resemblance of any kind or similarity to a supposed medial societies anbd activities simulated.
Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?
An ok person is an ok person in a game as well. There will always be idiots doing things like ninja items if they can, some things can be prevented by companies some not. DDO FOUND THE SOLUTION TO THAT THOUGH ,evry time u kill a boss either in 5 men dungeon or raid u open the chest and every player gets 2-3 random items reward from the chest so everyone is happy and no way other player can take those items if the player wants them.
Took the words right off my mind , the awnsers for your questions. EVE-online is far from being dumbed down. The main reason people don't play it is because it's not dumb and dumber friendly. Real men and women play EVE-Online. It's where the action is , after playing 6 years , I've lost some and won some , but where the game really shines is in PvP coop or any sort of coop for that matter. Some friends I've been with on my 1st year of playing had become ennemies and then friends again. I don't get the same adrenaline and anxiety and FUN for that matter outside of EVE. All other MMO's are easy , no one wants to party ,can do pretty much anything by yourself which puts in question the term MMORPG for that perticular game , or should I say 99% of the games listed on this site.
Yes games have become dumbed down , to a level where people only care about gearing their character and complain about having to P2P but put the same ammount of money per month if not more on a F2P game? Which is interesting , a whole new meaning of "shooting yourself in the foot."
P.S.: I'm pretty positive that members of CCP are in fact Santa's little helpers
I do not think MMOs are being "dumbed down" at all.
There is a huge difference between being "dumbed down" and providing greater choice and accessibility.
The fact that modern MMOs have different server types for PvP, PvE etc. and scaling difficulty choices (heroics, hard modes, competitive or "casual" PvP ladders) and such create a system where content is delivered on more of a "choose your own adventure" type of system is a good thing.
I guess there is no choice but to use WoW as an example (as it is the most easily comparable point of referene for most)
We now have greater emphasis on story and plot growth via questing, in game cinematics, and the use of phasing technology and instancing. Bioware is taking this a step further with TOR to provide true character interaction and growth.
One of Blizzards primary tennants has always been to provide ease of access, simplicity on the surface, with depth and complexity beneath the layers for those who seek it.
The very fact that sites like Elitist Jerks and such exist, the whole Theory-crafting community, shows undeniable proof of the deepr complexity and depth in a title that is extremely simple on the surface.
One thing we DO have to remember though, even games like WoW really aren't that simple in comparison to many other games in other genres.
Even looked at the full interface of a level 85 raider or competitive Arena / rated BG PvP'er?
Could you imagine walking into that game with that interface without prior knowledge or experience? "Simple" the absolutely last thing I'd describe it as.
On the contrary, I could walk into ANY FPS game or action RPG or RTS and pick it up fairly quickly.
I am a huge, huge fan of old-school UO - but that game was so incredibly simple in comparison to modern MMOs. The real difference is there was no direction nor guidance in UO - you just kind of had to figure things out. On the same token though the game was far LESS complex.
Can you even imagine having NO experience what so ever with MMOs or with a game like WoW or Rift specifically, being handed a geared out level 85/50 character and being thrown into a dungeon? It'd be a disaster.
What does LENGTH have anything to do with dumbing down? I would prefer a better produced SHORTER game than a longer one.
UO in 3D w/ a 50 million dollar budget backing em like most today = winner
Word.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yup. Awesome quality about older MMOs and players for that matter. Sure, you would get dicked over once in a while, but I remember in UO you could walk over to the forge/blacksmith and see GM crafters offering their services. Good times...
yes all mmos are being dumbed down..its the wow factor ..they had soo many new and younger people join that its what the devs focus on..the whole genra of old style mmos is far gone..no devs will spend the money on a project / sandbox when they can put all that money into a copy paste project like rift <for example> ...the days of playing the great sandboxs like uo "old style' eq and ashersons call are far gone ..sure you might see a sandbox popup here and there..but it will always fail because theres A. just not enuff people to p2p and bring a profit B. the devs are soo used to makeing theamparks and makeing big $$$$ every 6 months ..why would they..and for all those fan boies waiting and holding their breath for GW2 ..well umm sry this maybe a huge shocker..but im sure it will be more of the same..the whole genra has changed and so should the community ..i hate it but it is what it has become..an utter disgrace and being dumbed down for the masses...its all about the mighty dollar do you really think these big companys care what you / we think....< here is your product now play it > cause its all your gonna get..its the new stage of the ugly butterfly effect
i do lov sandboxes! i has trezzerbox!
I don't think I could've said it any better! Theme park MMO's are going to be the death of an entire gaming genre. How WoW or any other theme park MMO holds peoples attention for more than a few months is beyond me.
While I don't think that EVE is a 'dumb' game, it certainly could do a lot to 'smarten up'. Unfortunately the game prefers to cater to the lowest common denominator and is stuck in its niche.
Like i said before, games need to be accessable. Not hard as hell to where you need to power up a wiki pedia just to find out where to go and where to get a quest. Im a strong beliver in hot keys in favor of inputing macros that most of the time dont work properly.
Edgar F Greenwood
A few factors in my opinion have contributed to this perception turned reality.
Game Dev's designing to cross platform their games. To make a game for console the game must be able to function effectively with a controller.
Cost of Development They attempt to keep costs down by getting the product out quickly. Therefore simple is better and less problematic.
Since most MMO's are played on PC's , attempting to make the game run on as many PC's as possible as well as 3 operating systems. ( XP, Vista , Win 7 ) Some inherent complications slip in there, then piling on consoles OS .
Some could argue generational attitudes , I'm inclined to say it's more age related . In that PC's are more widespread ,and more have access to them . Hence the maturity level of the average player has dropped significantly and the patience.
Instance gratification. I think consoles have made players more inclined to get things done quickly and the expectation has followed suit.
Heavy instancing due to system limitations as well. I suspect this is more due to Dev's want their games on Consoles.
I don't think one can overstate the effect that console gaming has had on the industry good and bad . I don't blame console players , I just believe they've been condition to expect certain things and play in certain manners and to attract these players , MMO's have had to adapt. I think the days of 75 , 40 or even 20 man raids are fading fast . The idea most prevailant is to be able to put together a quick group ( usually 5 to 10 man ) and blow through the content . Mainly because people aren't conditioned to play like this nor are they prepared to be patient enough to deal with failure. After all the MMO , is a business and if you can keep a lot of people happy all at once you'll make more money. In the end that's all that matters.
To be honest, I do think things were removed from many MMOs that may have not been necessarily in good function, but because even thought they were not too difficult, they were incredibly stupid to exist in the first place. The hunter's ammo and pet items were an inventory tax, it's like making someone keep track of food or mundane arrows in Dungeons and Dragons. Tons of games have convolution and bad mechanics we all accept as commonplace because they may bring good function with them. Class/level systems provide gateways and pacing to content and balance between characters and help define needs and roles for players to fill, but skill build systems allow players to choose their own characters and activities by the piece for everything and may not have as much of a content gateway.
Fast Travel, auction Houses, mailboxes and teleports shrink the world but often provide money sinks to some degree. Fast travel and teleportation removes tedium out of much more expansive areas and links cities together so players who call different zones across the world home can still group without much difficulty.
Auction Houses added in much needed functionality of allowing game economies to form a good reasonable medium and allow quick access to essential trade items when interaction would be little more than "hello, gold in window, click accept, okay thanks later." across the span of a minute after a 5+ minute travel for some games. People STILL sell items over global and trade channels, and in fact for many games such channels were so overcrowded , even if vendor options could be added to many games the time it would take to locate one needs outside of a hub listing system would be just as bad. (like EVE online has)
Mailboxes just allow long distance quick sending of the aforementioned trade window sales and allows people the ability to set up such sales to people offline which really *is* just a pure improvement, like private message windows over any distance from the days of just say and having to use ICQ like in the days of UO.
Games will always change, and there are certainly plenty of games out there in MMOs with what can be viewed as regressive design and plenty upcoming with new ideas and themes to MMO worlds, but dumbed down is quite a ridiculous phrase to use when once long ago many mechanics were secretive and convoluted. Wikis, game guides and in game helpbots prospered because of this but for some games it was just out of hand. World of Warcraft has become far more streamlined and fast paced than it once was, but this is more because of mechanic based reinforcement being added into the game rather than regressive design. Gearscore, simplified stats, better quest pointers, more hubbing is good on a game that really never prided itself on being a very complicated game, but rather a very polished one where players should be able to understand what they see at first glance down to "complicated" mechanics.
Tabletop role playing games were full of caveats, "gotchas!" mechanical imbalance and plagued by Adversarial GMing advice from others to continue a bad cycle for years and years. 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons compared to 3rd edition and 2nd is MUCH more "Simple" and shouted as "WoW-ified" and dumbed down by many that dislike the system, but it fixed man of the issues like convoluted mechanics based on tradition and power imbalance based on terrible novels, characters, dated campaign settings and catch all magic systems, without tons of useless character abilities and brought a much stronger focus on mechanic balance over preserving the traditional fighting-man v wizard problem. (or class traps entirely)
New and old MMOs all have their issues, some from convolution to some actually being too easy or too bland and lacking eye catching game making thematics and mechanics
Edgar F Greenwood