While I know I'll be there for awhile, I certainly dont expect most players to play the game with each and every class. Maybe the do it once or even roll and alt, do their end game thing, but come back later on. Nothing wrong with them doing that, in fact go back to the '07 GDC where then Bioware Austin Co-Studio Director said this:
Gordon Walton 2007 GDC
Lesson Nine
He then suggested something even more controversial -- "Let 'em quit." He warned of making promises for features in patches that would never come to fruition (or do so far down the line the promises don't matter anymore.) "City Of Heroes taught me this before WoW -- a game that you finished and felt good and you'd re-up." But with other games "they quit because they'd stayed too long... the only way for them to escape was to demonize the game."
His personal experience is that he'll drop in and out of WoW at a whim with no ill feeling. However, he didn't think it was relevant that WoW doesn't delete inactive characters -- the "namespace" freed by deleting characters makes them worth deleting. He warned gamers get dissatisfied "if it takes more than three tries before they can have a name that they want."
SWTOR will be fun for 3 month until you've played through all the content with three different classes, then you'll throw it away or wait for it's next addon, just like people do it in WoW.
I'll play it, just like I've played all the other MMOs (WoW, AoC, STO, LoTRO, RoM, AION, etc...) for those three month.
The only MMO I've played for extended periods of time is EvE Online because it's the only real living game-world in the industry with playerdriven conten that doesn't get old that fast.
3 months to play through all the content with three different classes?
Heh. Humour me, and bear with me please:
Every class in SWTOR has an estimated 200 hours of fully unique Class Quest content.
Let's say someone'd play 40 hours a week, week after week. That's a full 5-day workweek they'd play, but for the true hardcore gamer to do that on top of their work/school/college/social life, that's doable and even done like that.
That'd mean to play the class content for three classes, that that person would be busy with it for 600/40=15 weeks.
So yes, 3.5 month, playing SWTOR 40 hours average a week.
That's without the World Quests that are shared with every class in one faction. Without the dungeons. Without Warzones, World Arcs (giant quest campaigns), crafting or any other stuff.
Purely the Class Quest content, nothing else.
Sounds like a very limiting gaming experience to me, even if the Class Quest content could be awesome. An MMORPG has more things to offer than just that.
I dont think most players start playing an mmorpg with the idea being " Im going to play every class because the game will be so boreing that questing with every class is all I will want to do." No I think most people want to have enough replay value from their one class and a deep enough game that has something besides VO and fluff, your coming from it from the viewpoint of someone playing KOTOR a few times to see all the storylines, this isnt a single player rpg game its an mmorpg, its going to have to last YEARS not months or hundreds of hours.
No, I'm coming from the viewpoint that replies on a poster's own quotes, using his own arguments with added logic and knowledge to it. Read the colored part. Using his own arguments and extrapolating upon them was enough to negate the case he was trying to make.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
SWTOR will be fun for 3 month until you've played through all the content with three different classes, then you'll throw it away or wait for it's next addon, just like people do it in WoW.
I'll play it, just like I've played all the other MMOs (WoW, AoC, STO, LoTRO, RoM, AION, etc...) for those three month.
The only MMO I've played for extended periods of time is EvE Online because it's the only real living game-world in the industry with playerdriven conten that doesn't get old that fast.
3 months to play through all the content with three different classes?
Heh. Humour me, and bear with me please:
Every class in SWTOR has an estimated 200 hours of fully unique Class Quest content.
Let's say someone'd play 40 hours a week, week after week. That's a full 5-day workweek they'd play, but for the true hardcore gamer to do that on top of their work/school/college/social life, that's doable and even done like that.
That'd mean to play the class content for three classes, that that person would be busy with it for 600/40=15 weeks.
So yes, 3.5 month, playing SWTOR 40 hours average a week.
That's without the World Quests that are shared with every class in one faction. Without the dungeons. Without Warzones, World Arcs (giant quest campaigns), crafting or any other stuff.
Purely the Class Quest content, nothing else.
Sounds like a very limiting gaming experience to me, even if the Class Quest content could be awesome. An MMORPG has more things to offer than just that.
I dont think most players start playing an mmorpg with the idea being " Im going to play every class because the game will be so boreing that questing with every class is all I will want to do." No I think most people want to have enough replay value from their one class and a deep enough game that has something besides VO and fluff, your coming from it from the viewpoint of someone playing KOTOR a few times to see all the storylines, this isnt a single player rpg game its an mmorpg, its going to have to last YEARS not months or hundreds of hours.
No, I'm coming from the viewpoint that replies on a poster's own quotes, using his own arguments with added logic and knowledge to it. Read the colored part. Using his own arguments and extrapolating upon them was enough to negate the case he was trying to make.
Yes but what you did was just PARSE his quote to say what you wanted to say without actually adressing the actual statement that he actually wrote. You attacked him with the usual wall of feelings. Games that follow the Themepark WOW design are doomed to be only as interesting as their next expansion. He might could drain more playtime from it by taking long naps between quests, or by using whatever auto join Battleground feature they more than likely have. Actually if it werent for some world pvp and battleground hopping the lifespan of these style games dives sharply.
Yes but what you did was just PARSE his quote to say what you wanted to say without actually adressing the actual statement that he actually wrote. You attacked him with the usual wall of feelings. Games that follow the Themepark WOW design are doomed to be only as interesting as their next expansion. He might could drain more playtime from it by taking long naps between quests, or by using whatever auto join Battleground feature they more than likely have. Actually if it werent for some world pvp and battleground hopping the lifespan of these style games dives sharply.
Not really. That's called projection, what you're doing now: projecting your own actions and MO, consciously or unconsciously, onto someone else. Wall of feelings? You should a good, objective look at the way you post and the arguments you use first.
I took what he said, the only concrete example he gave, and worked with it to its logical conclusion, while doing this using evidence and hard, wellknown facts and information to prove a point, namely that SWTOR has far more content than people - usually opponents - are giving it credit for. Something I wish that everybody would do, building upon what's known instead of just random gut feeling guessin or random psychic predicting.
In contrast to some people as seen in this thread and others who feel the need to continuously bash SWTOR in a completely biased view and approach to facts and available info, I can look at things more objectively: a few posts back I already acknowledged the fact that quests are only part of the gameplay experience. That's what people who can be objective do, they're capable of acknowledging good arguments that people with a viewpoint opposite to their own bring forward.
Now, let's return to the OP topic again, shall we?
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Aye, I think the sci-fi IP could be a breath of fresh air for many. Looking forward to it.
All the axe wielding, grunting, plate armor sporting heroicness around keeps and castles got a bit stale for me as well.
It still has similarities though: lightsaber combat for one.
This is why I'll probably go for an imperial agent first. Also Bioware stated that they get to have the most sexual pick up lines in their personal storyline AND get to fly the sleekest ship to boot!
*studies fingernails*
I pretty much feel the same way except I will be rolling a Trooper! I as well am getting bored with the fantasy MMO's and the switch to sci-fi with a gun toting toon may just be what the doctor ordered! I'm a long time player of CoX and Lotro and the magic spells and swords/axes are getting a little stale. Here's to a change of pace in the MMO world!
Hmm, an orbital laser strike... summoned from somebody standing about 10 meters away.
I like Star Wars... as space opera/science fantasy, but it is... especially in this particular MMO incarnation... about as close as you can get to fantasy without actually having elves and plate armor.
Though I have to admit, I would go all sorts of hardcore fanboy over a more traditional space opera based MMO, like say... some E.E. Doc Smith or A.E. Van Vogt.
Then I'd be gushing like a schoolgirl with a crush, any resemblance to fantasy be damned.
But again that doesn't mean that the required range is 10 ft away, it just means for demo purposes they fired it at close range so you could see the other players (or npcs) reaction.
In the IA video you do see him shooting from cover from a pretty far distance away... think about being an IA being able to summon an orbital strike on an opponent when you're safely behind a box at sniping range?
In an actual combat scenario you won't see many players getting up close and personal with ranged weapons, save for the heavy gunner troopers and maybe the off hand bounty hunter.
From eveything I've seen/read average combat distances in TOR seem to be about 30 meters or so....that's insanely short to represent anything that really feels like something dealing with modern/futuristic weaponry.
From what I've seen TOR ranged combat is pretty much scaled to about the same distances as typical ranged combat in most fantasy MMO's....replace the bows & magic missles with blasters and you've pretty much got TOR.
P.S. I saw the IA video....you call that a "far distance"....I'd qualify it as just barely outside "point blank". Heck, I could hit something with a thrown baseball in RL from that distance.
Yeah but I doubt you could kill it from that distance with a baseball
I'm also curious how far away you can hit something., especially with rifles. A sniper should be able to hit something from at least 60 meters away.
Yeah...as am I, but I haven't really seen or read anything indicating that they support combat at ranges longer then the typical fantasy MMO distances. I have a feeling that it might be similar to STO "sniping" ranges.
Although honestly for Star Wars, that does kinda fit the IP.... as in the movies alot of the "pew pew" combat occured at point blank range...... just not exactly the type of combat I'm interested in for a Sci Fi game.... if they're going to give you guns, let alone frickin laser rifles....it seems kinda wasted if your combat range isn't bigger then the average Little League field.
Aye, I think the sci-fi IP could be a breath of fresh air for many. Looking forward to it.
All the axe wielding, grunting, plate armor sporting heroicness around keeps and castles got a bit stale for me as well.
It still has similarities though: lightsaber combat for one.
This is why I'll probably go for an imperial agent first. Also Bioware stated that they get to have the most sexual pick up lines in their personal storyline AND get to fly the sleekest ship to boot!
*studies fingernails*
I pretty much feel the same way except I will be rolling a Trooper! I as well am getting bored with the fantasy MMO's and the switch to sci-fi with a gun toting toon may just be what the doctor ordered! I'm a long time player of CoX and Lotro and the magic spells and swords/axes are getting a little stale. Here's to a change of pace in the MMO world!
Yeah, I enjoyed playing an infiltrator in ME2. I am hoping that the imperial agent has that type of gameplay. Sniping was a lot of fun.
I don't think I'll ever get tired of the medieval fantasy setting. I can get burnt out by similar combat mechanics, similar classes, similar character progression systems, similar quest-based leveling systems, similar durgeons and end game raiding format, but not by a similar, magical, mystical fantasy setting. My interest in SWtoR comes depsite my general distaste for the sci-fi outer-spacey setting.
Hmm, an orbital laser strike... summoned from somebody standing about 10 meters away.
I like Star Wars... as space opera/science fantasy, but it is... especially in this particular MMO incarnation... about as close as you can get to fantasy without actually having elves and plate armor.
Though I have to admit, I would go all sorts of hardcore fanboy over a more traditional space opera based MMO, like say... some E.E. Doc Smith or A.E. Van Vogt.
Then I'd be gushing like a schoolgirl with a crush, any resemblance to fantasy be damned.
But again that doesn't mean that the required range is 10 ft away, it just means for demo purposes they fired it at close range so you could see the other players (or npcs) reaction.
In the IA video you do see him shooting from cover from a pretty far distance away... think about being an IA being able to summon an orbital strike on an opponent when you're safely behind a box at sniping range?
In an actual combat scenario you won't see many players getting up close and personal with ranged weapons, save for the heavy gunner troopers and maybe the off hand bounty hunter.
From eveything I've seen/read average combat distances in TOR seem to be about 30 meters or so....that's insanely short to represent anything that really feels like something dealing with modern/futuristic weaponry.
From what I've seen TOR ranged combat is pretty much scaled to about the same distances as typical ranged combat in most fantasy MMO's....replace the bows & magic missles with blasters and you've pretty much got TOR.
P.S. I saw the IA video....you call that a "far distance"....I'd qualify it as just barely outside "point blank". Heck, I could hit something with a thrown baseball in RL from that distance.
Yeah but I doubt you could kill it from that distance with a baseball
I'm also curious how far away you can hit something., especially with rifles. A sniper should be able to hit something from at least 60 meters away.
When I did my military service we were required to hit a human torzo sized target from 300m laying down, with an 7.62 automatic carbine, ironsight only, no scope. That was just basic training. Snipers can hit things up to 1000m without problems, i think, and even further away.
So I think realistic ranged combat in any game is pretty much out of the question as technology stands now.
Hmm, an orbital laser strike... summoned from somebody standing about 10 meters away.
I like Star Wars... as space opera/science fantasy, but it is... especially in this particular MMO incarnation... about as close as you can get to fantasy without actually having elves and plate armor.
Though I have to admit, I would go all sorts of hardcore fanboy over a more traditional space opera based MMO, like say... some E.E. Doc Smith or A.E. Van Vogt.
Then I'd be gushing like a schoolgirl with a crush, any resemblance to fantasy be damned.
But again that doesn't mean that the required range is 10 ft away, it just means for demo purposes they fired it at close range so you could see the other players (or npcs) reaction.
In the IA video you do see him shooting from cover from a pretty far distance away... think about being an IA being able to summon an orbital strike on an opponent when you're safely behind a box at sniping range?
In an actual combat scenario you won't see many players getting up close and personal with ranged weapons, save for the heavy gunner troopers and maybe the off hand bounty hunter.
From eveything I've seen/read average combat distances in TOR seem to be about 30 meters or so....that's insanely short to represent anything that really feels like something dealing with modern/futuristic weaponry.
From what I've seen TOR ranged combat is pretty much scaled to about the same distances as typical ranged combat in most fantasy MMO's....replace the bows & magic missles with blasters and you've pretty much got TOR.
P.S. I saw the IA video....you call that a "far distance"....I'd qualify it as just barely outside "point blank". Heck, I could hit something with a thrown baseball in RL from that distance.
Yeah but I doubt you could kill it from that distance with a baseball
I'm also curious how far away you can hit something., especially with rifles. A sniper should be able to hit something from at least 60 meters away.
When I did my military service we were required to hit a human torzo sized target from 300m laying down, with an 7.62 automatic carbine, ironsight only, no scope. That was just basic training. Snipers can hit things up to 1000m without problems, i think, and even further away.
Yeah, the record of a sniping kill is around 2,5 or maybe 3 km if I recall correctly. And there you have the problem with ranged attacks and mmorpgs. Having a hundred threads each day called "OMFG Snipers are OP: I got killed and didn't even see who was shooting me" isn't such a great prospect.
Obviously the range needs to be severly limited to ensure class balance in pvp. If ranged attack users get too much range, those classes could easily kite melee or medium ranged classes to death. Too little range and it will feel very artificial. It's a balancing act and I wonder how it will turn out too.
Comments
The only classes I'll be playing are Sith Warrior and Bounty Hunter. I like to roleplay with one or two characters and that's it.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
No, I'm coming from the viewpoint that replies on a poster's own quotes, using his own arguments with added logic and knowledge to it. Read the colored part. Using his own arguments and extrapolating upon them was enough to negate the case he was trying to make.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Yes but what you did was just PARSE his quote to say what you wanted to say without actually adressing the actual statement that he actually wrote. You attacked him with the usual wall of feelings. Games that follow the Themepark WOW design are doomed to be only as interesting as their next expansion. He might could drain more playtime from it by taking long naps between quests, or by using whatever auto join Battleground feature they more than likely have. Actually if it werent for some world pvp and battleground hopping the lifespan of these style games dives sharply.
I think of the Haters/Lovers of these two games try them both, they very well may like them both.
But alas, making decisions without all the information or letting someone else's opinion give you yours is how it is now a days.
Not really. That's called projection, what you're doing now: projecting your own actions and MO, consciously or unconsciously, onto someone else. Wall of feelings? You should a good, objective look at the way you post and the arguments you use first.
I took what he said, the only concrete example he gave, and worked with it to its logical conclusion, while doing this using evidence and hard, wellknown facts and information to prove a point, namely that SWTOR has far more content than people - usually opponents - are giving it credit for. Something I wish that everybody would do, building upon what's known instead of just random gut feeling guessin or random psychic predicting.
In contrast to some people as seen in this thread and others who feel the need to continuously bash SWTOR in a completely biased view and approach to facts and available info, I can look at things more objectively: a few posts back I already acknowledged the fact that quests are only part of the gameplay experience. That's what people who can be objective do, they're capable of acknowledging good arguments that people with a viewpoint opposite to their own bring forward.
Now, let's return to the OP topic again, shall we?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I pretty much feel the same way except I will be rolling a Trooper! I as well am getting bored with the fantasy MMO's and the switch to sci-fi with a gun toting toon may just be what the doctor ordered! I'm a long time player of CoX and Lotro and the magic spells and swords/axes are getting a little stale. Here's to a change of pace in the MMO world!
Yeah...as am I, but I haven't really seen or read anything indicating that they support combat at ranges longer then the typical fantasy MMO distances. I have a feeling that it might be similar to STO "sniping" ranges.
Although honestly for Star Wars, that does kinda fit the IP.... as in the movies alot of the "pew pew" combat occured at point blank range...... just not exactly the type of combat I'm interested in for a Sci Fi game.... if they're going to give you guns, let alone frickin laser rifles....it seems kinda wasted if your combat range isn't bigger then the average Little League field.
Yeah, I enjoyed playing an infiltrator in ME2. I am hoping that the imperial agent has that type of gameplay. Sniping was a lot of fun.
I don't think I'll ever get tired of the medieval fantasy setting. I can get burnt out by similar combat mechanics, similar classes, similar character progression systems, similar quest-based leveling systems, similar durgeons and end game raiding format, but not by a similar, magical, mystical fantasy setting. My interest in SWtoR comes depsite my general distaste for the sci-fi outer-spacey setting.
When I did my military service we were required to hit a human torzo sized target from 300m laying down, with an 7.62 automatic carbine, ironsight only, no scope. That was just basic training. Snipers can hit things up to 1000m without problems, i think, and even further away.
So I think realistic ranged combat in any game is pretty much out of the question as technology stands now.
Yeah, the record of a sniping kill is around 2,5 or maybe 3 km if I recall correctly. And there you have the problem with ranged attacks and mmorpgs. Having a hundred threads each day called "OMFG Snipers are OP: I got killed and didn't even see who was shooting me" isn't such a great prospect.
Obviously the range needs to be severly limited to ensure class balance in pvp. If ranged attack users get too much range, those classes could easily kite melee or medium ranged classes to death. Too little range and it will feel very artificial. It's a balancing act and I wonder how it will turn out too.
My brand new bloggity blog.